Hello balance team, I think u forgot some stuff

[subversiontwo.7501]

@"zaid.2308" said:Sounds like most of you like how scourges and fbs perform in WvW atm and dont want them nerfed lmao. The current zergplay balance is literally being balanced around how much support a fb can output and how much dps/corrupts a scourge can output.I don't think it's that for the people who are informed. Some people may be conservative like that but far from everyone. Meta conservatives may be representative in terms of player majority but they may not be representative on the swath or span of different player experiences. Does that make sense? Like metas are about popularity more so than potential. They are about efficiency, but popular efficiency, not potential efficiency. Upsetting the meta then obviously upsets what's popular - ie., the "most of you".

However, if you look at all the different counterpoints and arguments that you are getting in response to the thread you will see that they differ the same as player experiences differ and even if they are critique on what you are saying they are critique for different reasons with different arguments.

The meta is indeed defined by the support the FB puts out and the corrupts (and scaling damage) that Scourges put out. However, the solution is not as simple as just stripping away heals and mobility or rips and damage because the preference of FB and Scourges also exists in a larger picture of imbalances between mobility and control and other imbalances between offenses and defenses as well how they affect the fun of playing the game and not just how to be effective in the game.

The Scourge is popular because it is pushing the overarching malbalance of the mechanics. The FB is popular because it is a premier counterweight to the overarching balance problems. It's not as simple as nerfing both to achieve balance. Nerfing the FB will make the overarching problems worse. A better approach would be to improve similar counterbalancing effects on other classes (for example: stability) or nerf the driving problematic effects (for example: hard control) on other classes and with that affect the appeal of the FB in relation to options in a similar role. If stability is less of a necessity the popularity of fighting over it (FB and Scourge) will diminish and give other classes more of a playing field.

The same problems are represented with the Scourge. Are they a driving force behind the overarching balance problems? Sure, but you do not adress those overarching balance problems by simply nerfing the output of Scourges. The mechanics are the problem, not necessarily the amount of them. If you simply peel back on amounts on the Scourges and FB's you will only make people stack more of them.

So should Scourges and FB's be nerfed? Well, uh yeah, but not because of their stability, rip, healing or damage amounts. Scourges simply do too many offensive tasks at once and they do them in ways that were not intended (their reach is longer than intended and their corruption mechanics give them more damage than is prudent as well as causes a boon tug-o-war with Scrappers that isn't healthy for server performance or overall balance; if more effects were taken out by rips and cleanses rather than recycled by conversions then we would have less of the back-and-forth spam).

It's cool that Engineers can convert some conditions to boons and that Necros can convert some boons to conditions but the system has inlets with less outlets and they could easily contain that by adding more outlets - they could easily make some corrupts just be rips and they could easily have limited Purity of Purpose to certain skills, allowing some conversion but also some plain cleanses. Then we would have less of this spam and snowballing. That's how you adress the overarching problems. The imbalance of crowd control is what makes FB popular so you adress them by adressing that. Adding self-control support to other classes and/or dimnishing crowd control. That's how you solve the class balance, the overarching balance issues and improve the fun that people have. Crowd control is powerful but not fun so it should exist but be sparse, an exception, not a norm. Then you also adress the range imbalances that exist. More fun for everyone.

The problem is that the people who can see this stuff are becomming dangerously few, both among the players and the game designers. Those that remain are often brushed away as longwinded douchebags as people are trying to find simple or populist solutions to complicated problems that just causes more actual imbalance. Anet's problem is their general problem with GW2, they are simply not invested enough in the game to get a grip.

[zaid.2308]

What do you mean meta is more popularity than potential or efficiency? lmaoDo you even know what meta stands for?Meta = Most effiecient/effective tactic available

Who in their right mind wouldn't bring the best on the table in a competitive environment?I only play outside the meta when it comes to roaming cause you can but in a zerg environment you play as a squad so you have to bring what's most efficient to synchronize with the whole squad.

You can play meta in a smallscale environment or in a largescale environment but both metas shift with balance changes and we've gotten several balance patches since fb and scourges came out, has the meta shifted from just those 2 being essential to a squad? no.Like how is it fine when 2 classes control the outcome in a gamemode.

Now i agree with you on some point and like i've said in the main topic, which i guess most didn't read, I said they should focus on balancing scourges big shade and now 10 target cap cause the balance team wanted to nerf it as they made it sound but they did the exact opposite of what they said and what majority of wvw players wanted. The only decent balance was the barrier change to scourge. On top of that the bigger target cap on big shade now has made the already bad lag in WvW even worse.As for FB, let's be honest the recent "nerf" to it won't change how it has been performing so far.

[subversiontwo.7501]

@"zaid.2308" said:What do you mean meta is more popularity than potential or efficiency? lmaoDo you even know what meta stands for?Meta = Most effiecient/effective tactic availableNo it doesn't and no it isn't. I can only refer you back to the points I made before. It is proven that it isn't the most effective tactic available by virtue of the best groups and players not using said meta (or the common interpretation of said meta). It may however be one of the easiest ways to gain some success when herding cats. It can be effective in that sense but it is far from the potentially most effective tactic available. Also, meta is not an acronym. The term has existed in gaming for decades and initially referred to organisation that existed outside of the game(s). For example, Metabattle, GW2skills or ArcDPS is meta because it expands the game past basic gameplay. It comes from the greek term for "above" or "beyond". If people use it as an acronym now that is a revisionist adaptation. It's like yolo relative carpe diem or believing that trolling refers to the bad manners of fictional trolls. It comes from a time when games generally did not have built in voice communications, chat channels or organisational tools.

People who look upon meta like that has never been apart of driving the meta and have likely never been anywhere near the most effective aspects of the game. They are usually midtiers. The meta in WvW generally exist to push lowtier to midtier or to push the midtier of server-level organisation.

[nthmetal.9652]

@zaid.2308 said:Now the new warrior with the changed Tactic specialization is interesting but you guys need to be very careful cause at the moment it's VERY strong on heals and cleanses (even more with rune of the trooper). After the recent patch, I and others tried support spellbreaker and I've got to tell you guys balance team that you powercreeped yet again unfortunately. I hope you look again at the new Tactic traits, warhorn skills and shout utilities (The shouts can become VERY strong when traited + trooper rune).

I would be quite interested to see some data on this. While it might be strong, is it strong enough to even scratch the dominance of scrappers or firebrands? How much does a traited and equipped for the role spellbreaker (or core warrior) actually cleanse with the new change in a sustained fight? How does it compare to the roles classically assigned to the healing and cleansing tasks? Numbers would be quite interesting.

Also, while nerfing is a good idea, getting more people to concentrate on cleanses, also keep in mind that not every class even has as many cleanses available. On a spellbreaker, without adequate support from our support classes the cleansing potential is not anywhere near adequate in order to fulfill your role.

[apharma.3741]

This thread is a troll right?

It can't be real...I refuse to believe the player base has regressed to this.

[LetoII.3782]

@apharma.3741 said:This thread is a troll right?

It can't be real...I refuse to believe the player base has regressed to this.

Why would you blame the whole community?One dude thought playing on EU servers gave him some sort of pedigree and he got the inevitable mixed reviews.

[Infusion.7149]

I'm not sure why people keep pinging devs in their topics, it probably just adds to their inbox clutter.

Anyway until it has been shown that Trooper Runes are broken (with an actual build and use case), this thread is moot. On tempest you're looking at only max 2 conditions deep (with "Wash the pain away") ; in comparison scourge has 10 cooldown on their f2 , firebrand has on 12 cooldown Mantra of Lore (Opening Passage) which clears 2, and scrapper easily removes 5 conditions with elixir gun's Fumigate (12 c.d.) or purge gyro (20 c.d.) which is also a light field; 4 with Med kit's cleansing field (15 c.d.). On guardian you would lose heal power/boon duration as well; on warrior you'd give up sustain to run more than one utility shout.

Monk runes are strong and the defacto "heal rune" but not gamebreaking. +10% outgoing and another +10% maximum is +20% or 21% depending on if its additive or multiplicative. If it's changed it would probably be a flat +125 heal power for the 6th bonus (similar to Altruism , Scourge, or Rebirth) instead of +10% outgoing baseline.