Patch notes for 10/1/2019

[Zedd.8239]

@Altion.9576 said:why the kitten would they nerf the SUPPORT aspects of a mainly SUPPORT class??? thats kitten stupid.

Because support FBs being used in raids, fractals, and WvW is a bad thing I guess.

[Zedd.8239]

Edit: It looks like there's a display glitch with the current version of Epilogue: Unbroken Lines. Aegis is still applied when it's used but it doesn't show up in the skill description. That seems to match the proposed changes that ANet posted weeks ago and not the final changes that were implemented. Regardless, this completely changes everything I said below because the skill isn't really changing as much as it initially seemed. So if anyone looks at this skill and panics, it's functionally the same as before minus retaliation despite what the skill description says.

@"otto.5684" said:

Outside of WvW, FB support is not really impacted much. We lost personal 1 aegis on 1 skill, that was locked SoC. Not exactly impactful. And I am in favor of nerfing FB support capacity, cuz it is over performing. However, there are far bigger issues at play here. FB dps is not exactly doing stellar in PvP. Core and DH are still in C level realm, and how things are going it seems they will never be PvP competitive.

The changes do not really nerf FB support (outside of the ToR 2 in WvW), failed to make any of the traits and skills buffed usable and ignores everything else.

I really don't see how the changes to support FB builds is "not really impacted much" outside of WvW. Aegis is a critical mechanic that provides timed damage mitigation and healing. Removing it from Epilogue: Unbroken Lines in all game modes doesn't eliminate a single aegis. It eliminates 5-8 possible aegis uses.

[Gambino.2109]

I love how the question is.. why is Support FB out performing other support/heal classes...

Geez... I mean we only really went and destroyed Chrono and hampered Druids to the point that no one takes them to Fractals

[Emberheart.8426]

@Gambino.2109 said:I love how the question is.. why is Support FB out performing other support/heal classes...

Geez... I mean we only really went and destroyed Chrono and hampered Druids to the point that no one takes them to Fractals

It's not just fractals. Firebrand is the support class in WvW, PvP and fractals. Raids are the only place where other support specs have any sort of chance to of competing, and that is purely because of how comps work. Firebrand is still objectively by far the best support spec out there, even after these minor nerfs. Yes, they are minor nerfs. Look at what the balance team did to chrono. People don't take chrono and druid in fractals because firebrand brings nearly every boon by itself, while also healing decently and using aegis and stability to ignore mechanics. It's a complete monster of a spec that trivializes fractals.

[FtoPScrub.5476]

Every patch they have to waste time revisiting FB nerfs again and again because they aren't doing big enough nerfs or are straight up hitting the wrong things. Honest to god guardian will be in a much better spot if they just rip the bandaid and pull out the big support FB nerfs so they can actually focus on making things like core, DH, non support FB good.

[Yannir.4132]

@Ganathar.4956 said:It's not just fractals. Firebrand is the support class in WvW, PvP and fractals. Raids are the only place where other support specs have any sort of chance to of competing, and that is purely because of how comps work. Firebrand is still objectively by far the best support spec out there, even after these minor nerfs. Yes, they are minor nerfs. Look at what the balance team did to chrono. People don't take chrono and druid in fractals because firebrand brings nearly every boon by itself, while also healing decently and using aegis and stability to ignore mechanics. It's a complete monster of a spec that trivializes fractals.

Most of this is a recent development. Firebrand was great at PvP and WvW on day 1 but it took a lot longer for Fractal- and Raid-groups to start leaning towards Firebrand for support. This should tell you that it's not Firebrand that's overperforming, it's just every other spec either getting butchered or just not measuring up in the first place. Druid and Chrono were hammered down repeatedly, and frankly that treatment was undeserved.While Firebrand has gotten a few minor nerfs lately, it's nothing compared to the hammering druid has been receiving patch after patch.

[otto.5684]

@Zedd.8239 said:Edit: It looks like there's a display glitch with the current version of Epilogue: Unbroken Lines. Aegis is still applied when it's used but it doesn't show up in the skill description. That seems to match the proposed changes that ANet posted weeks ago and not the final changes that were implemented. Regardless, this completely changes everything I said below because the skill isn't really changing as much as it initially seemed. So if anyone looks at this skill and panics, it's functionally the same as before minus retaliation despite what the skill description says.

@"otto.5684" said:

Outside of WvW, FB support is not really impacted much. We lost personal 1 aegis on 1 skill, that was locked SoC. Not exactly impactful. And I am in favor of nerfing FB support capacity, cuz it is over performing. However, there are far bigger issues at play here. FB dps is not exactly doing stellar in PvP. Core and DH are still in C level realm, and how things are going it seems they will never be PvP competitive.

The changes do not really nerf FB support (outside of the ToR 2 in WvW), failed to make any of the traits and skills buffed usable and ignores everything else.

I really don't see how the changes to support FB builds is "not really impacted much" outside of WvW. Aegis is a critical mechanic that provides timed damage mitigation and healing. Removing it from Epilogue: Unbroken Lines in all game modes doesn't eliminate a single aegis. It eliminates 5-8 possible aegis uses.

Aegis was not removed from chapter 5. Only from chapter 2. Chapter 2 was 1 personal aegis. They removed the retaliation from chapter 5.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

Honestly I wish they’d bring up condi dps FB, especially if they are going to continue nerfing support. What bothers me the most about this patch is that they nerfed personal defense rather than group support defense. The personal aegis doesn’t need to go. This instead hurts build diversity and builds that aren’t the ultra meta support, heal builds. I run a condi power hybrid FB and this patch hurt the personal defense a lot and it wasn’t really viable to begin with.

[otto.5684]

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:Honestly I wish they’d bring up condi dps FB, especially if they are going to continue nerfing support. What bothers me the most about this patch is that they nerfed personal defense rather than group support defense. The personal aegis doesn’t need to go. This instead hurts build diversity and builds that aren’t the ultra meta support, heal builds. I run a condi power hybrid FB and this patch hurt the personal defense a lot and it wasn’t really viable to begin with.

Indeed. I mentioned in the feedback that aegis from chapter 5 is to be removed, not from chapter 2, if the goal is tone down support. Removing it from chapter 2, mainly hurts FB dps in PvP, while having no impact on support. But this what happens when devs... not sure do not understand or do not read. Whatever, this is the trend in class balance now.

[Emberheart.8426]

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:It's not just fractals. Firebrand is

the

support class in WvW, PvP and fractals. Raids are the only place where other support specs have any sort of chance to of competing, and that is purely because of how comps work. Firebrand is still objectively by far the best support spec out there, even after these minor nerfs. Yes, they are

minor

nerfs. Look at what the balance team did to chrono. People don't take chrono and druid in fractals because firebrand brings nearly every boon by itself, while also healing decently and using aegis and stability to ignore mechanics. It's a complete monster of a spec that trivializes fractals.

Most of this is a recent development. Firebrand was great at PvP and WvW on day 1 but it took a lot longer for Fractal- and Raid-groups to start leaning towards Firebrand for support. This should tell you that it's not Firebrand that's overperforming, it's just every other spec either getting butchered or just not measuring up in the first place. Druid and Chrono were hammered down repeatedly, and frankly that treatment was undeserved.While Firebrand has gotten a few minor nerfs lately, it's nothing compared to the hammering druid has been receiving patch after patch.

If they nerfed chrono it's clear that they don't want supports doing so much at once. So Firebrand is over-performing by Anet's standards of balance. The thing is that they have no idea how to nerf it. Just like with chrono, they will keep on with nerfs that do absolutely nothing, until they get frustrated and start gutting it while making it as clunky as possible. They could bring other supports up, but it's clear that this is not what they want to do. They refuse to even give good stability to another class, much less give the boon overload that FB has. So the nerfs will continue. You may wish that they buffed other supports, but it's clear that this will not happen. Tempest got buffs this patch, and it was for dps tempest instead of support. That should tell you everything you need to know.

[otto.5684]

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:It's not just fractals. Firebrand is

the

support class in WvW, PvP and fractals. Raids are the only place where other support specs have any sort of chance to of competing, and that is purely because of how comps work. Firebrand is still objectively by far the best support spec out there, even after these minor nerfs. Yes, they are

minor

nerfs. Look at what the balance team did to chrono. People don't take chrono and druid in fractals because firebrand brings nearly every boon by itself, while also healing decently and using aegis and stability to ignore mechanics. It's a complete monster of a spec that trivializes fractals.

Most of this is a recent development. Firebrand was great at PvP and WvW on day 1 but it took a lot longer for Fractal- and Raid-groups to start leaning towards Firebrand for support. This should tell you that it's not Firebrand that's overperforming, it's just every other spec either getting butchered or just not measuring up in the first place. Druid and Chrono were hammered down repeatedly, and frankly that treatment was undeserved.While Firebrand has gotten a few minor nerfs lately, it's nothing compared to the hammering druid has been receiving patch after patch.

If they nerfed chrono it's clear that they don't want supports doing so much at once. So Firebrand is over-performing by Anet's standards of balance. The thing is that they have no idea how to nerf it. Just like with chrono, they will keep on with nerfs that do absolutely nothing, until they get frustrated and start gutting it while making it as clunky as possible. They could bring other supports up, but it's clear that this is not what they want to do. They refuse to even give good stability to another class, much less give the boon overload that FB has. So the nerfs will continue. You may wish that they buffed other supports, but it's clear that this will not happen. Tempest got buffs this patch, and it was for dps tempest instead of support. That should tell you everything you need to know.

Honestly it is not really that complex.

1) Remove signet of mercy instant rez, and change the functionality.2) Nerf the allies healing from both Invigorated Bulwark (make it self instead of allies) and Force of Will, keep the vitality, remove healing to allies and add something else with personal benefit.3) Remove stability from Unbroken Lines.4) Mantra of Liberation, reduce CD to 20 secs from 25, but Portent of Freedom instead of 3 sec of stability reduce to 1.5 sec (in PvP). This way it acts more as a CC break instead of stability uptime.

PvE not impacted much. Personal survivability not impacted at all. AoE stability spam and instant rez are gone.

[Nauda.3678]

"Purging Flames" feels kinda bad now. I guess they might have wanted to get rid of the -33%Condiduration on everyone running in because of server performance? At least they mentioned "clever use of skills" causing performance issues and "Purging Flames" giving -33% to everyone running in sounds like it could cause such issues.

On paper it sounds like a longer version of the "Purge Gyro" but in reality it feels kinda bad now. It now lacks the 3-Condi-Clear burst it had while not being as useful as the gyro because it doesn't move with the guard so you would've to stand in it for a very long time.They should either give it a better cleanse-burst at the start again or make it move with the guard like the gyro does.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Yannir.4132 said:Most of this is a recent development. Firebrand was great at PvP and WvW on day 1 but it took a lot longer for Fractal- and Raid-groups to start leaning towards Firebrand for support. This should tell you that it's not Firebrand that's overperforming, it's just every other spec either getting butchered or just not measuring up in the first place. Druid and Chrono were hammered down repeatedly, and frankly that treatment was undeserved.While Firebrand has gotten a few minor nerfs lately, it's nothing compared to the hammering druid has been receiving patch after patch.

A lot of chrono and druid nerfs were very deserved, as both specs were monsters in instanced PvE against which current FB is pretty harmless. It's just all the gameplay cancer ANet has added to both specs that indeed is undeserved - current power level balance is quite good (though it can be improved) and not nearly as bad as for a long time after PoF release. With regard to WvW/PvP, isn't the main culprit stability access? At least in WvW, I don't really see any big effects unless we finally get another class with stability output that is comparable to guardian. Nerfing stab from guard will just make overall (zerg) gameplay more annoying.

[Emberheart.8426]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:Most of this is a recent development. Firebrand was great at PvP and WvW on day 1 but it took a lot longer for Fractal- and Raid-groups to start leaning towards Firebrand for support. This should tell you that it's not Firebrand that's overperforming, it's just every other spec either getting butchered or just not measuring up in the first place. Druid and Chrono were hammered down repeatedly, and frankly that treatment was undeserved.While Firebrand has gotten a few minor nerfs lately, it's nothing compared to the hammering druid has been receiving patch after patch.

A lot of chrono and druid nerfs were very deserved, as both specs were monsters in instanced PvE against which current FB is pretty harmless. It's just all the gameplay cancer ANet has added to both specs that indeed is undeserved - current power level balance is quite good (though it can be improved) and not nearly as bad as for a long time after PoF release. With regard to WvW/PvP, isn't the main culprit stability access? At least in WvW, I don't really see any big effects unless we finally get another class with stability output that is comparable to guardian. Nerfing stab from guard will just make overall (zerg) gameplay more annoying.

The lack of stability in any other support spec is the main issue in WvW. However, even if they do add stability to another class, Firebrand will still likely be the superior option because it can give more boons than any other support in the game. The only support that could have any chance at competing if given stability is tempest, and that is purely because they can trait shouts to be for 10 target healing. That way you can have a decent amount of firebrands, with a few less tempests helping out. There would naturally be less tempest players, because auras overlap easier with 10 target shouts and they don't stack. Soothing mist healing also doesn't stack, so even if tempest started overperforming it simply wouldn't be able to take a large amount of spots.

In PvP it's a different story. there are no support specs that are anywhere near firebrand in performance in any way. There need to be absolutely massive changes for there to be any impact here.

[Matias.1560]

Still waiting for that +20% damage on Sword 3 :p