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EU Ranked PvP on Core Mantra Mesmer!


shadowpass.4236

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@bluri.2653 said:

@bluri.2653 said:I dont know if this was meant to prove how terrible core mantra mes is, all i see is you downstate at least 6 times vs a non thief/rev comp lol

It's just like how you ask for nerfs to Deadeye and Condition Thief at every opportunity.

the fact that you try to compare de/condi thief to this is beyond laughable lmao

Condi thief is definitely a couple tiers above power mesmer right now. But DE is a perfect example since similar to power mesmer maybe four people played it at a plat2 level or higher on EU and NA but that doesn't stop the play style from being fundamentally noxious.

I had issues with DE when they had 3 sec of stealth on dodge, not the current iteration nor do i have any issues with power mes whatsoever, if i see a power mes in my game on the enemy side its a free win. The only one that i found obnoxious was mirage when it was on steroids since it was so elusive once they were caught they could easily get out of any situation due to portal and the million dodges they had.

A core power mes does nothing outside of its burst and has zero escape, if you have issues with a core power mes due to the high powerspike you would have issues with a core DP thief with crit / DA spikes since it can 1 shot you with assassin signet, i don't see anyone crying about that cus IT IS T R A S H just like core power mes

It's not a matter of how good or bad something is in the meta right now. On a pure philosophical design sense, instant cast damage is inherently unhealthy and bad for the game. Part of why Condi Daredevi is so overpowered right now is because it has steal loaded with 7.5k poison damage and enough confusion to do 1k per skill use on an instant cast animation free ability. And also on a philosophical level I don't think any build should be capable of killing any other build in less than 5 seconds of combat. On the opposite end of the spectrum, no build should be able to sustain 60s of combat without either dying or being forced to completely disengage from the fight. 20-40s is the golden window. And yes, I'll say this should be universal across all builds in the game.

It's not a matter of whether it's good or not right here right now. It's about good housekeeping in the long run. It was only a just couple of balance patches ago holosmith engineer was straight up winning polls on "Most fair class" in polls with hundreds of votes. It only takes a balance patches and a few hard counters being less favorable for something to go from strong but okay to really noxious and omnipresent.

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@aymnad.9023 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:As for using sword 2 when nothing seems to happen, it's usually a preemptive defense if I think I'm about to be attacked from stealth. However, this might not apply to all cases. Could you link me any timestamps where I do this? I could try and explain why I used S2 in those specific scenarios if that would help. :)I was thinking of moments like game 3 6 :10 (it was the main one and the last game I watched ^^). Game 6 8:43 / 11:15. Watching it again there are less moment than I remembered when I wrote it. I did not see sometimes the swap 3 missing so that is why I thought they were more.

As for the lack of pressure on me, watch how I cycle through my cooldowns and try not to engage when I don't have blink/mass invis/torch 4/distort off/coming off cooldown. Even if they were to jump on me, I almost always have the tools available to escape to safety/force them to focus my allies. Also, it's actually very dangerous to go hard on pressuring a mantra mesmer. If you're too busy concentrating on killing me, I could very easily turn the fight around and burst you in return. Even a full health meta demo tools holo would be brought to 20-10% health and be forced to use Elixir S to prevent themselves from dying. The same applies (especially so) for squishier builds/classes that aren't running toughness amulets.

I was thinking of pressure like core guard, rev or thief going on sniper deadeye or slb. Not necessarily leading to a kill but forcing away and constant harass. Whenever I see a fa ele I know I cannot kill him. But I can force 2 defensive spells easily and know that if one ally turns he is dead or has to run away and wait for his cd. If I get the focus and can escape like the engineer usually I am happy. I know I cannot win a dps race vs those builds so I take that as a small victory if it keeps my allies safe (rest is up to them ^^).

  • The holo used his Toss Elixir S toolbelt skill to stealth at 6:03. I used Blurred Frenzy here because that's the time it would've taken for the holo to close the distance to me and go for a rifle CC or Holographic Shockwave right before the stealth ended. This stealth lasts 6 seconds, he stealthed at 6:03 (slightly after the second started), I used Blurred Frenzy at 6:09 (slightly less than 6 seconds later). I cancelled the Blurred Frenzy once I saw him come out of stealth and realized he didn't drop down after me.

  • Here I just used Blurred Frenzy to guarantee the kill on the necro before my teammate got stomped. The necro died anyways before I got it off but the evade would've prevented any blinds or CCs the mesmer could've used to interrupt me at the last moment.

  • I used Blurred Frenzy here once I saw the necro enter the mark animation on staff. He slightly whiffed his mark placement (by like a pixel lol) but if he didn't, the Blurred Frenzy would've evaded what was probably a Chilblains/Reaper's Mark.
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Becarefull about your comments like in your game versus flandre/sinid because you had way better teamate than they had (you had 2 plat3, 1 plat2 in your team whereas they had plat1/gold.).I mean versus sinid, when you kill him he was out of CD after teamfight and when you survive versus him it was because it was a Xv1.I also mean in a 9 minutes game, you only load 4 efficients bursts which is really low talking about contribution and which is why burst mesmer isn't efficient after a certain level.

In you other vids, your burts are far to be 100% reliable. Will watch it in detail one more time.And stealth as survival isn't that good considering the regular reveal.

I'm curious to look at how high you will climb but for the moment I'm not convinced.

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@viquing.8254 said:Becarefull about your comments like in your game versus flandre/sinid because you had way better teamate than they had (you had 2 plat3, 1 plat2 in your team whereas they had plat1/gold.).I mean versus sinid, when you kill him he was out of CD after teamfight and when you survive versus him it was because it was a Xv1.I also mean in a 9 minutes game, you only load 4 efficients bursts which is really low talking about contribution and which is why burst mesmer isn't efficient after a certain level.

In you other vids, your burts are far to be 100% reliable. Will watch it in detail one more time.And stealth as survival isn't that good considering the regular reveal.

I'm curious to look at how high you will climb but for the moment I'm not convinced.

Yeah I had good teammates that game. I can say whatever though lol. I've fought against all of them in tournaments on my ranger, feels no different than other good players on NA. Keep in mind, I'm not a mesmer main and I'm still relatively new to the build and playing on 6x my normal ping with mostly instant cast skills.

Either way, I know why I killed Sinid but my point was that he couldn't dodge the interrupt/burst/predict/be aware of the Diversion or burst from stealth (and neither could Flandre when I did it again at mid).

Look at their team comp. I've stated previously that the mantra build can only oneshot builds that don't run toughness amulets. However, it can bring demo builds down to about 10-20% if they don't have prot. I'd only have the chance to oneshot the other three people on their team (the weaver, herald, and firebrand) if they weren't in the middle of a fight. Barrier, protective boons, and (arguably less significant) evade spamming make it more difficult to deal enough damage to kill them in a single burst. That's why you see me that match playing a bit more ranged and going in when I have the opportunities to do so.

Anyways, I land the majority of my bursts on EU with high ping. It might not have a 100% hit ratio but it's not like I just fold over in the wind afterwards either. It's very easy to survive on core/mirage mantras. You should also notice the relative ease as to which I reliably charge them.

You will see me fight against them more often as I climb the ladder. Maybe not this weekend though because I have exams to study for. Also, I've been in the top 30 several times in EU over the years. Like I said earlier, I tanked my rating on purpose to show how the build performs from plat 1 and up.

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@Megametzler.5729 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:(...)Anyways, I land the majority of my bursts on EU with high ping. (...)

Which is not too bad. 120ish ms? I have the same on my wifi. :tongue:

Yeah but I normally play on 20-50 (usually closer to 20-30) so it's a lot higher on EU. Not bad, but still feels delayed lol. If you watch the videos you'll see me get hit mid-dodge animation several times.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:(...)Anyways, I land the majority of my bursts on EU with high ping. (...)

Which is not too bad. 120ish ms? I have the same on my wifi. :tongue:

Yeah but I normally play on 20-50 (usually closer to 20-30) so it's a lot higher on EU. Not bad, but still feels delayed lol. If you watch the videos you'll see me get hit mid-dodge animation several times.

Yeah, I feel with you.^^ It makes squishy builds extra hard to play.

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@bluri.2653 said:

@bluri.2653 said:I dont know if this was meant to prove how terrible core mantra mes is, all i see is you downstate at least 6 times vs a non thief/rev comp lol

It's just like how you ask for nerfs to Deadeye and Condition Thief at every opportunity.

the fact that you try to compare de/condi thief to this is beyond laughable lmao

Condi thief is definitely a couple tiers above power mesmer right now. But DE is a perfect example since similar to power mesmer maybe four people played it at a plat2 level or higher on EU and NA but that doesn't stop the play style from being fundamentally noxious.

I had issues with DE when they had 3 sec of stealth on dodge, not the current iteration nor do i have any issues with power mes whatsoever, if i see a power mes in my game on the enemy side its a free win. The only one that i found obnoxious was mirage when it was on steroids since it was so elusive once they were caught they could easily get out of any situation due to portal and the million dodges they had.

A core power mes does nothing outside of its burst and has zero escape, if you have issues with a core power mes due to the high powerspike you would have issues with a core DP thief with crit / DA spikes since it can 1 shot you with assassin signet, i don't see anyone crying about that cus IT IS T R A S H just like core power mes

You missed the point of this thread to be honest !

Playing mantra core mesmer (instead of mantra mirage or else ) implies that it's not mirage that is stupid strong but that mantras are the issue .

The OP decide to show that by:

  1. Climbing from plat 1 (since most of players are in Gold -2-3 )
  2. Using the core variant to accuse the mantras and not the spec.

Weither or not you agree with that methodology is your problem ... Doesn't allow you ppl to be harsh with the work that guy is doing . Data are data even if not optimal. We can work with it.

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@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:Playing mantra core mesmer (instead of mantra mirage or else ) implies that it's not mirage that is stupid strong but that mantras are the issue .

The OP decide to show that by:

  1. Climbing from plat 1 (since most of players are in Gold -2-3 )
  2. Using the core variant to accuse the mantras and not the spec.

Weither or not you agree with that methodology is your problem ... Doesn't allow you ppl to be harsh with the work that guy is doing . Data are data even if not optimal. We can work with it.

I don't think playing the core version proves anything about Mantras (don't forget i agree about Mantra of Pain is stupid design though but he doesn't even prove that) because

  1. this core Chaosline spec can onehsot the same builds also without any Mantra used. Without any Mantras his build would not be remarkable less lame.

  2. It just shows that he needs a stupid amount of stealth uptime to land the burst from a less predictable position and also needs high amount of passive sustain from Chaosline to survive. He will never land a covered by only 3 secs torch stealth oneshot on decent player who still has cds left when he arrives. I even would prefer he would do that with Mantra Mirage to not be carried by Chaosline. I am sure he would have an even harder time to land any oneshots on decent player just the way i have no problem to never get hit by a Mantra Mirage not stacking stealth for ages to come out of nowhere and then even has more than enough cds and another stealth still rdy to just vanish again for at least 4,5 secs to again bait out more than one dodge to avoid follow attack out of stealth. Mantra Mirage can't bait out that many defensive cds with simple stealthspam like a Chaosline Mesmer can. Mantra Mirage has only one 3 secs stealth with 30 secs cd can't be stacked out of ears shot and visible range and also has barely to none passive sustain.

  3. That is why i said, when he wants to prove anything about Mantra he needs to play them on a spec that isn't carried by anything that big as Chaosline already. Mantra Mesmer without Chaosline is no problem (except for Mantra of Pain but that alone doesn't make that big issues) i can avoid every oenshot try by a Mirage and kill them on nearly all classes without even tryharding. But this Core Chaosline spec is annoying because it can come completely out of nowhere and even when you know he is around can bait too many defensive cds by simple stealthspam without any need to skillful outplay the opponent. A Mantra Mirage can't do that.

  4. That is why he plays the clearly noobfriendlier spec (Yes surprising right? A core spec can be more obnoxious than an elite spec, i heard it happens here and there...)

  5. So you are right, Mirage spec is not the issue. But neither are Mantras (except for Mantra of Pain as only SECONDARY carry mechanic). It is Chaosline in the first place giving stupid amount of stealth so even predictable noobsmesmers can hit a oneshot here and there carried by long stealth and bait out defensive cds without the need to outplay ppl.

Still low Plat 1? GG worked. Insane climb until now. I know ppl playing Fresh Air core Ele consistently on way higher ranks. Can we nerf this first pls? :joy:

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@"bravan.3876" :1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

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@viquing.8254 said:@"bravan.3876" :1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

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@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

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@viquing.8254 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

There is absolutely nothing skillful about playing staff /scepter X chaos mirage. Literally nothing.

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@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

There is absolutely nothing skillful about playing staff /scepter X chaos mirage. Literally nothing.

l personally think knowing Phase Retreat spots is the mark of a good staff mesmer. For example, on Foefire do you know where to stand and what angle to face on the road leading south of Graveyard so your phase retreat will put you up onto the metal bridge? It's less intuitive than knowing if you can steal or phase retreat to someone based on where they are standing. What about to get onto the stonearch on the north road?

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@viquing.8254 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

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@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

There is absolutely nothing skillful about playing staff /scepter X chaos mirage. Literally nothing.

YEAH WE ALL KNOW THAT THE BEST PLAYER PLAY WITH HIS FEET BECAUSE IT'S SKILL !

Thanks for your intervention.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

There is absolutely nothing skillful about playing staff /scepter X chaos mirage. Literally nothing.

l personally think knowing Phase Retreat spots is the mark of a good staff mesmer. For example, on Foefire do you know where to stand and what angle to face on the road leading south of Graveyard so your phase retreat will put you up onto the metal bridge? It's less intuitive than knowing if you can steal or phase retreat to someone based on where they are standing. What about to get onto the stonearch on the north road?

the real skill is when you use staff 2, and jaunt to dodge split secound abilities, like warrior gs3/arcing pull from necro ( can be used while being pulled to cancel it out )

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@viquing.8254 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

Viquing sry but that gets too stupid, my argument is not that somethign is op/ lame or noobcarry, that is my conclusion. The other 10000 sentences in my wall of texts are the arguments and explanations WHY i think something is op. If you don't get these conversation basics i don't see a way to talk to you.

What? Ofc Mirages use Chaosline, the meta build even after CI nerf is still Chaosline Condi Mirage because Mirage alone is more of an utiltiy spec than pure defensive. And the most defensive traits on Mirage are clearly more active. I never said delete defensive stuff, i said delete (more rework)PASSIVE defensive stuff. Just as i said delete PASSIVE offensive stuff like too strong condiclones (i don't even say clone ambushes should make zero dmg but it needs to be way less and for that more active ways of condi application).

Yes Chrono had defensive tools like shield added. But it is active that is the difference.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

Viquing sry but that gets too stupid, my argument is not that somethign is op/ lame or noobcarry, that is my conclusion. The other 10000 sentences in my wall of texts are the arguments and explanations WHY i think something is op. If you don't get these conversation basics i don't see a way to talk to you.

What? Ofc Mirages use Chaosline, the meta build even after CI nerf is still Chaosline Condi Mirage because Mirage alone is more of an utiltiy spec than pure defensive. And the most defensive traits on Mirage are clearly more active. I never said delete defensive stuff, i said delete PASSIVE defensive stuff. Just as i said delete PASSIVE offensive stuff like too strong condiclones (i don't even say clone ambushes should make zero dmg but it needs to be way less and for that more active ways of condi application).

Yes Chrono had defensive tools like shield added. But it is active that is the difference.

Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments.Mirage used illusion instead of chaos before they nerf vigor.Shield = hit me with your imblocable please.

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@viquing.8254 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

Viquing sry but that gets too stupid, my argument is not that somethign is op/ lame or noobcarry, that is my conclusion. The other 10000 sentences in my wall of texts are the arguments and explanations WHY i think something is op. If you don't get these conversation basics i don't see a way to talk to you.

What? Ofc Mirages use Chaosline, the meta build even after CI nerf is still Chaosline Condi Mirage because Mirage alone is more of an utiltiy spec than pure defensive. And the most defensive traits on Mirage are clearly more active. I never said delete defensive stuff, i said delete PASSIVE defensive stuff. Just as i said delete PASSIVE offensive stuff like too strong condiclones (i don't even say clone ambushes should make zero dmg but it needs to be way less and for that more active ways of condi application).

Yes Chrono had defensive tools like shield added. But it is active that is the difference.

Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments.Mirage used illusion instead of chaos before they nerf vigor.Shield = hit me with your imblocable please.

Yeah that is because you can't distinguish between conclusion and argument and it seems you can't count either. Saying something is noobcarry, lame or op needs one sentence, means subtract one sentence from my wall of text and you get the amount of arguments.

Yes i mentioned this build as the ONLY exception to the Chaos/ Inspiration rule in another thread already, and the only reason Mirage could run this was because of the PASSIVE offensive stuff combined with high amount of active defense. Even before vigor nerfs this build wouldn't have been broken without passive clone condispam. With other words the main reason this build was strong enough to compete in meta was because of passives once again.

Oh no something has a counter? Yeah up as kitten right?... :angry: Ofc passive sustain without counterplay is better and has higher skill ceiling, got it.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

Viquing sry but that gets too stupid, my argument is not that somethign is op/ lame or noobcarry, that is my conclusion. The other 10000 sentences in my wall of texts are the arguments and explanations WHY i think something is op. If you don't get these conversation basics i don't see a way to talk to you.

What? Ofc Mirages use Chaosline, the meta build even after CI nerf is still Chaosline Condi Mirage because Mirage alone is more of an utiltiy spec than pure defensive. And the most defensive traits on Mirage are clearly more active. I never said delete defensive stuff, i said delete PASSIVE defensive stuff. Just as i said delete PASSIVE offensive stuff like too strong condiclones (i don't even say clone ambushes should make zero dmg but it needs to be way less and for that more active ways of condi application).

Yes Chrono had defensive tools like shield added. But it is active that is the difference.

Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments.Mirage used illusion instead of chaos before they nerf vigor.Shield = hit me with your imblocable please.

Yeah that is because you can't distiguish between conclusion and argument and it seems you can't count either. Saying something is noobcarry, lame or op needs one sentence, means subtract one sentence from my wall of text and you get the amount of arguments.

Yes i mentioned this build as the ONLY exception to the Chaos/ Inspiration rule in another thread already, and the only reason Mirage could run this was because of the PASSIVE offensive stuff combined with high amount of active defense. Even before vigor nerfs this build wouldn't have been broken without passive clone condispam. With other words the main reason this build was strong enough to compete in meta was because of passives once again.

Oh no something has a counter? Yeah up as kitten right?... :angry: Ofc passive sustain without counterplay is better and has higher skill ceiling, got it.

I prefer 100k times having a weapon skill who does something rather than having to rely on low hp clones to do something...You know having a well of calamity who does 20% damage of a necro well is...Having a channeling scepter 3 who does half damage a necro axe does with the same gear mean you must count on thoses fucking clones to do something.

Oh no something has a counter? Yeah up as kitten right?... :angry: Ofc passive sustain without conterplay is better and has higher skill ceiling, got it.Seems you don't get hit enough by 6k damage thief under shield block to understand why it's not a good idea to shield.

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