EU Ranked PvP on Core Mantra Mesmer! - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

EU Ranked PvP on Core Mantra Mesmer!

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  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    @aymnad.9023 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    As for using sword 2 when nothing seems to happen, it's usually a preemptive defense if I think I'm about to be attacked from stealth. However, this might not apply to all cases. Could you link me any timestamps where I do this? I could try and explain why I used S2 in those specific scenarios if that would help. :)

    I was thinking of moments like game 3 6 :10 (it was the main one and the last game I watched ^^). Game 6 8:43 / 11:15. Watching it again there are less moment than I remembered when I wrote it. I did not see sometimes the swap 3 missing so that is why I thought they were more.

    As for the lack of pressure on me, watch how I cycle through my cooldowns and try not to engage when I don't have blink/mass invis/torch 4/distort off/coming off cooldown. Even if they were to jump on me, I almost always have the tools available to escape to safety/force them to focus my allies. Also, it's actually very dangerous to go hard on pressuring a mantra mesmer. If you're too busy concentrating on killing me, I could very easily turn the fight around and burst you in return. Even a full health meta demo tools holo would be brought to 20-10% health and be forced to use Elixir S to prevent themselves from dying. The same applies (especially so) for squishier builds/classes that aren't running toughness amulets.

    I was thinking of pressure like core guard, rev or thief going on sniper deadeye or slb. Not necessarily leading to a kill but forcing away and constant harass. Whenever I see a fa ele I know I cannot kill him. But I can force 2 defensive spells easily and know that if one ally turns he is dead or has to run away and wait for his cd. If I get the focus and can escape like the engineer usually I am happy. I know I cannot win a dps race vs those builds so I take that as a small victory if it keeps my allies safe (rest is up to them ^^).

    Game 3 - Example 1

    • The holo used his Toss Elixir S toolbelt skill to stealth at 6:03. I used Blurred Frenzy here because that's the time it would've taken for the holo to close the distance to me and go for a rifle CC or Holographic Shockwave right before the stealth ended. This stealth lasts 6 seconds, he stealthed at 6:03 (slightly after the second started), I used Blurred Frenzy at 6:09 (slightly less than 6 seconds later). I cancelled the Blurred Frenzy once I saw him come out of stealth and realized he didn't drop down after me.

    Game 6 - Example 2

    • Here I just used Blurred Frenzy to guarantee the kill on the necro before my teammate got stomped. The necro died anyways before I got it off but the evade would've prevented any blinds or CCs the mesmer could've used to interrupt me at the last moment.

    Game 6 - Example 3

    • I used Blurred Frenzy here once I saw the necro enter the mark animation on staff. He slightly whiffed his mark placement (by like a pixel lol) but if he didn't, the Blurred Frenzy would've evaded what was probably a Chilblains/Reaper's Mark.
  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭

    Shadow not on ranger! What has this world come to?

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    I've updated the original post with 21 new games.

    The first 6 were scuffed off-hour matches. I ended at a loss of 55 rating (after going 2-4) even though I went:

    11-2
    12-0
    6-3 (team struggled to break 100 points this match, they were perma dead)
    13-0

    For each of the 4 losses respectively.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    Becarefull about your comments like in your game versus flandre/sinid because you had way better teamate than they had (you had 2 plat3, 1 plat2 in your team whereas they had plat1/gold.).
    I mean versus sinid, when you kill him he was out of CD after teamfight and when you survive versus him it was because it was a Xv1.
    I also mean in a 9 minutes game, you only load 4 efficients bursts which is really low talking about contribution and which is why burst mesmer isn't efficient after a certain level.

    In you other vids, your burts are far to be 100% reliable. Will watch it in detail one more time.
    And stealth as survival isn't that good considering the regular reveal.

    I'm curious to look at how high you will climb but for the moment I'm not convinced.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Becarefull about your comments like in your game versus flandre/sinid because you had way better teamate than they had (you had 2 plat3, 1 plat2 in your team whereas they had plat1/gold.).
    I mean versus sinid, when you kill him he was out of CD after teamfight and when you survive versus him it was because it was a Xv1.
    I also mean in a 9 minutes game, you only load 4 efficients bursts which is really low talking about contribution and which is why burst mesmer isn't efficient after a certain level.

    In you other vids, your burts are far to be 100% reliable. Will watch it in detail one more time.
    And stealth as survival isn't that good considering the regular reveal.

    I'm curious to look at how high you will climb but for the moment I'm not convinced.

    Yeah I had good teammates that game. I can say whatever though lol. I've fought against all of them in tournaments on my ranger, feels no different than other good players on NA. Keep in mind, I'm not a mesmer main and I'm still relatively new to the build and playing on 6x my normal ping with mostly instant cast skills.

    Either way, I know why I killed Sinid but my point was that he couldn't dodge the interrupt/burst/predict/be aware of the Diversion or burst from stealth (and neither could Flandre when I did it again at mid).

    Look at their team comp. I've stated previously that the mantra build can only oneshot builds that don't run toughness amulets. However, it can bring demo builds down to about 10-20% if they don't have prot. I'd only have the chance to oneshot the other three people on their team (the weaver, herald, and firebrand) if they weren't in the middle of a fight. Barrier, protective boons, and (arguably less significant) evade spamming make it more difficult to deal enough damage to kill them in a single burst. That's why you see me that match playing a bit more ranged and going in when I have the opportunities to do so.

    Anyways, I land the majority of my bursts on EU with high ping. It might not have a 100% hit ratio but it's not like I just fold over in the wind afterwards either. It's very easy to survive on core/mirage mantras. You should also notice the relative ease as to which I reliably charge them.

    You will see me fight against them more often as I climb the ladder. Maybe not this weekend though because I have exams to study for. Also, I've been in the top 30 several times in EU over the years. Like I said earlier, I tanked my rating on purpose to show how the build performs from plat 1 and up.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    (...)
    Anyways, I land the majority of my bursts on EU with high ping. (...)

    Which is not too bad. 120ish ms? I have the same on my wifi. :tongue:

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    (...)
    Anyways, I land the majority of my bursts on EU with high ping. (...)

    Which is not too bad. 120ish ms? I have the same on my wifi. :tongue:

    Yeah but I normally play on 20-50 (usually closer to 20-30) so it's a lot higher on EU. Not bad, but still feels delayed lol. If you watch the videos you'll see me get hit mid-dodge animation several times.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    (...)
    Anyways, I land the majority of my bursts on EU with high ping. (...)

    Which is not too bad. 120ish ms? I have the same on my wifi. :tongue:

    Yeah but I normally play on 20-50 (usually closer to 20-30) so it's a lot higher on EU. Not bad, but still feels delayed lol. If you watch the videos you'll see me get hit mid-dodge animation several times.

    Yeah, I feel with you.^^ It makes squishy builds extra hard to play.

  • Nath Forge Tempete.1645Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @bluri.2653 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @bluri.2653 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @bluri.2653 said:
    I dont know if this was meant to prove how terrible core mantra mes is, all i see is you downstate at least 6 times vs a non thief/rev comp lol

    It's just like how you ask for nerfs to Deadeye and Condition Thief at every opportunity.

    the fact that you try to compare de/condi thief to this is beyond laughable lmao

    Condi thief is definitely a couple tiers above power mesmer right now. But DE is a perfect example since similar to power mesmer maybe four people played it at a plat2 level or higher on EU and NA but that doesn't stop the play style from being fundamentally noxious.

    I had issues with DE when they had 3 sec of stealth on dodge, not the current iteration nor do i have any issues with power mes whatsoever, if i see a power mes in my game on the enemy side its a free win. The only one that i found obnoxious was mirage when it was on steroids since it was so elusive once they were caught they could easily get out of any situation due to portal and the million dodges they had.

    A core power mes does nothing outside of its burst and has zero escape, if you have issues with a core power mes due to the high powerspike you would have issues with a core DP thief with crit / DA spikes since it can 1 shot you with assassin signet, i don't see anyone crying about that cus IT IS T R A S H just like core power mes

    You missed the point of this thread to be honest !

    Playing mantra core mesmer (instead of mantra mirage or else ) implies that it's not mirage that is stupid strong but that mantras are the issue .

    The OP decide to show that by:
    1. Climbing from plat 1 (since most of players are in Gold -2-3 )
    2. Using the core variant to accuse the mantras and not the spec.

    Weither or not you agree with that methodology is your problem ... Doesn't allow you ppl to be harsh with the work that guy is doing . Data are data even if not optimal. We can work with it.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    just stop already lol. mantra of pain is the problem. give it an actual cd and remove the might.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

  • @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    There is absolutely nothing skillful about playing staff /scepter X chaos mirage. Literally nothing.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    There is absolutely nothing skillful about playing staff /scepter X chaos mirage. Literally nothing.

    l personally think knowing Phase Retreat spots is the mark of a good staff mesmer. For example, on Foefire do you know where to stand and what angle to face on the road leading south of Graveyard so your phase retreat will put you up onto the metal bridge? It's less intuitive than knowing if you can steal or phase retreat to someone based on where they are standing. What about to get onto the stonearch on the north road?

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).
    Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    There is absolutely nothing skillful about playing staff /scepter X chaos mirage. Literally nothing.

    YEAH WE ALL KNOW THAT THE BEST PLAYER PLAY WITH HIS FEET BECAUSE IT'S SKILL !

    Thanks for your intervention.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).
    Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

    You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.
    Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.
    Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.
    Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    There is absolutely nothing skillful about playing staff /scepter X chaos mirage. Literally nothing.

    l personally think knowing Phase Retreat spots is the mark of a good staff mesmer. For example, on Foefire do you know where to stand and what angle to face on the road leading south of Graveyard so your phase retreat will put you up onto the metal bridge? It's less intuitive than knowing if you can steal or phase retreat to someone based on where they are standing. What about to get onto the stonearch on the north road?

    the real skill is when you use staff 2, and jaunt to dodge split secound abilities, like warrior gs3/arcing pull from necro ( can be used while being pulled to cancel it out )

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).
    Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

    You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.
    Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.
    Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.
    Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

    Viquing sry but that gets too stupid, my argument is not that somethign is op/ lame or noobcarry, that is my conclusion. The other 10000 sentences in my wall of texts are the arguments and explanations WHY i think something is op. If you don't get these conversation basics i don't see a way to talk to you.

    What? Ofc Mirages use Chaosline, the meta build even after CI nerf is still Chaosline Condi Mirage because Mirage alone is more of an utiltiy spec than pure defensive. And the most defensive traits on Mirage are clearly more active. I never said delete defensive stuff, i said delete (more rework)PASSIVE defensive stuff. Just as i said delete PASSIVE offensive stuff like too strong condiclones (i don't even say clone ambushes should make zero dmg but it needs to be way less and for that more active ways of condi application).

    Yes Chrono had defensive tools like shield added. But it is active that is the difference.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).
    Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

    You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.
    Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.
    Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.
    Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

    Viquing sry but that gets too stupid, my argument is not that somethign is op/ lame or noobcarry, that is my conclusion. The other 10000 sentences in my wall of texts are the arguments and explanations WHY i think something is op. If you don't get these conversation basics i don't see a way to talk to you.

    What? Ofc Mirages use Chaosline, the meta build even after CI nerf is still Chaosline Condi Mirage because Mirage alone is more of an utiltiy spec than pure defensive. And the most defensive traits on Mirage are clearly more active. I never said delete defensive stuff, i said delete PASSIVE defensive stuff. Just as i said delete PASSIVE offensive stuff like too strong condiclones (i don't even say clone ambushes should make zero dmg but it needs to be way less and for that more active ways of condi application).

    Yes Chrono had defensive tools like shield added. But it is active that is the difference.

    Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments.
    Mirage used illusion instead of chaos before they nerf vigor.
    Shield = hit me with your imblocable please.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).
    Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

    You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.
    Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.
    Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.
    Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

    Viquing sry but that gets too stupid, my argument is not that somethign is op/ lame or noobcarry, that is my conclusion. The other 10000 sentences in my wall of texts are the arguments and explanations WHY i think something is op. If you don't get these conversation basics i don't see a way to talk to you.

    What? Ofc Mirages use Chaosline, the meta build even after CI nerf is still Chaosline Condi Mirage because Mirage alone is more of an utiltiy spec than pure defensive. And the most defensive traits on Mirage are clearly more active. I never said delete defensive stuff, i said delete PASSIVE defensive stuff. Just as i said delete PASSIVE offensive stuff like too strong condiclones (i don't even say clone ambushes should make zero dmg but it needs to be way less and for that more active ways of condi application).

    Yes Chrono had defensive tools like shield added. But it is active that is the difference.

    Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments.
    Mirage used illusion instead of chaos before they nerf vigor.
    Shield = hit me with your imblocable please.

    Yeah that is because you can't distinguish between conclusion and argument and it seems you can't count either. Saying something is noobcarry, lame or op needs one sentence, means subtract one sentence from my wall of text and you get the amount of arguments.

    Yes i mentioned this build as the ONLY exception to the Chaos/ Inspiration rule in another thread already, and the only reason Mirage could run this was because of the PASSIVE offensive stuff combined with high amount of active defense. Even before vigor nerfs this build wouldn't have been broken without passive clone condispam. With other words the main reason this build was strong enough to compete in meta was because of passives once again.

    Oh no something has a counter? Yeah up as kitten right?... :angry: Ofc passive sustain without counterplay is better and has higher skill ceiling, got it.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).
    Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

    You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.
    Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.
    Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.
    Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

    Viquing sry but that gets too stupid, my argument is not that somethign is op/ lame or noobcarry, that is my conclusion. The other 10000 sentences in my wall of texts are the arguments and explanations WHY i think something is op. If you don't get these conversation basics i don't see a way to talk to you.

    What? Ofc Mirages use Chaosline, the meta build even after CI nerf is still Chaosline Condi Mirage because Mirage alone is more of an utiltiy spec than pure defensive. And the most defensive traits on Mirage are clearly more active. I never said delete defensive stuff, i said delete PASSIVE defensive stuff. Just as i said delete PASSIVE offensive stuff like too strong condiclones (i don't even say clone ambushes should make zero dmg but it needs to be way less and for that more active ways of condi application).

    Yes Chrono had defensive tools like shield added. But it is active that is the difference.

    Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments.
    Mirage used illusion instead of chaos before they nerf vigor.
    Shield = hit me with your imblocable please.

    Yeah that is because you can't distiguish between conclusion and argument and it seems you can't count either. Saying something is noobcarry, lame or op needs one sentence, means subtract one sentence from my wall of text and you get the amount of arguments.

    Yes i mentioned this build as the ONLY exception to the Chaos/ Inspiration rule in another thread already, and the only reason Mirage could run this was because of the PASSIVE offensive stuff combined with high amount of active defense. Even before vigor nerfs this build wouldn't have been broken without passive clone condispam. With other words the main reason this build was strong enough to compete in meta was because of passives once again.

    Oh no something has a counter? Yeah up as kitten right?... :angry: Ofc passive sustain without counterplay is better and has higher skill ceiling, got it.

    I prefer 100k times having a weapon skill who does something rather than having to rely on low hp clones to do something...
    You know having a well of calamity who does 20% damage of a necro well is...
    Having a channeling scepter 3 who does half damage a necro axe does with the same gear mean you must count on thoses kitten clones to do something.

    Oh no something has a counter? Yeah up as kitten right?... :angry: Ofc passive sustain without conterplay is better and has higher skill ceiling, got it.

    Seems you don't get hit enough by 6k damage thief under shield block to understand why it's not a good idea to shield.

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    There is absolutely nothing skillful about playing staff /scepter X chaos mirage. Literally nothing.

    l personally think knowing Phase Retreat spots is the mark of a good staff mesmer. For example, on Foefire do you know where to stand and what angle to face on the road leading south of Graveyard so your phase retreat will put you up onto the metal bridge? It's less intuitive than knowing if you can steal or phase retreat to someone based on where they are standing. What about to get onto the stonearch on the north road?

    Considering I spent all of core on staff GS power shatter. Yes, I do. Or did once upon a time at least.

    Having perma just about every boon with double chaos storm and scepter block every 6 seconds is not skillful gameplay.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • AngelLovesFredrik.6741AngelLovesFredrik.6741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    There is absolutely nothing skillful about playing staff /scepter X chaos mirage. Literally nothing.

    YEAH WE ALL KNOW THAT THE BEST PLAYER PLAY WITH HIS FEET BECAUSE IT'S SKILL !

    Thanks for your intervention.

    That's not what I said, nor what I meant. Mirage, and infinite horizon promotes a very "spammy" play style. Couple that with perma protect, vigor, regen and a lot of aegis / scepter blocks. Distort and instant cast reposition with jaunt and staff 2. The ability to dodge after eating the stun is by definition not skillful.

    But hey, good to see you still can't hold an objective discussion.
    Arguments backed by nothing but feelings won't really get you anywhere. Take a step back, look at the facts and after that respond.

    Much like how I'm a guardian main, I know core guardian is easy to play. In theory, it's however very weak now making it harder to compete. But in it's core, it's not a skillful class. The only hard part about guardian compared to every other spec is having to manage cooldowns in a completely different way.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    I like how the opening posts are talking about how he needs to play with certain traitlines in order to validate the build. The build is the most straightforward experience possible, and it doesn't really matter how "easy" the passives make the combat when he's going to do the exact same thing against every opponent anyway. Even something like a "Mirage variant" is going to have almost identical gameplay. Mega low IQ.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    I like how the opening posts are talking about how he needs to play with certain traitlines in order to validate the build. The build is the most straightforward experience possible, and it doesn't really matter how "easy" the passives make the combat when he's going to do the exact same thing against every opponent anyway. Even something like a "Mirage variant" is going to have almost identical gameplay. Mega low IQ.

    Nope the version without Chaosline has way harder to land because way more predictable and for that easy to counter oneshot tries and then, when failigng the oneshot, has also less passive tools to survive. Means the variant without Chaosline has to outplay ppl way more to hit the burst and also to survive what makes it way less low IQ. Oneshot Mesmer still is the easiest out of all Powermesmer builds not carried by Inspiration or Chaos (still harder than any meta build) but then has no balance issue at all (except for Mantra of Pain). And complaining about that is then nothing more than a l2p issue.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).
    Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

    You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.
    Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.
    Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.
    Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

    Viquing sry but that gets too stupid, my argument is not that somethign is op/ lame or noobcarry, that is my conclusion. The other 10000 sentences in my wall of texts are the arguments and explanations WHY i think something is op. If you don't get these conversation basics i don't see a way to talk to you.

    What? Ofc Mirages use Chaosline, the meta build even after CI nerf is still Chaosline Condi Mirage because Mirage alone is more of an utiltiy spec than pure defensive. And the most defensive traits on Mirage are clearly more active. I never said delete defensive stuff, i said delete PASSIVE defensive stuff. Just as i said delete PASSIVE offensive stuff like too strong condiclones (i don't even say clone ambushes should make zero dmg but it needs to be way less and for that more active ways of condi application).

    Yes Chrono had defensive tools like shield added. But it is active that is the difference.

    Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments.
    Mirage used illusion instead of chaos before they nerf vigor.
    Shield = hit me with your imblocable please.

    "Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments."

    Yeah @viquing.8254, it's funny you noticed that too. People have been telling Bravan that for the past few days but he still doesn't get it.

    Look at my responses to him on this page in another one of my threads. There have been a ton of other people telling him the same thing lol.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).
    Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

    You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.
    Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.
    Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.
    Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

    Viquing sry but that gets too stupid, my argument is not that somethign is op/ lame or noobcarry, that is my conclusion. The other 10000 sentences in my wall of texts are the arguments and explanations WHY i think something is op. If you don't get these conversation basics i don't see a way to talk to you.

    What? Ofc Mirages use Chaosline, the meta build even after CI nerf is still Chaosline Condi Mirage because Mirage alone is more of an utiltiy spec than pure defensive. And the most defensive traits on Mirage are clearly more active. I never said delete defensive stuff, i said delete PASSIVE defensive stuff. Just as i said delete PASSIVE offensive stuff like too strong condiclones (i don't even say clone ambushes should make zero dmg but it needs to be way less and for that more active ways of condi application).

    Yes Chrono had defensive tools like shield added. But it is active that is the difference.

    Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments.
    Mirage used illusion instead of chaos before they nerf vigor.
    Shield = hit me with your imblocable please.

    "Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments."

    Yeah @viquing.8254, it's funny you noticed that too. People have been telling Bravan that for the past few days but he still doesn't get it.

    Look at my responses to him on this page in another one of my threads. There have been a ton of other people telling him the same thing lol.

    If you mean the Ranger thread there was only one person jumping in for you right after you got banned. Coincidence ofc and i could explain pretty well why it didn't make sense at all what he accused me of. So pls :joy:

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    I like how the opening posts are talking about how he needs to play with certain traitlines in order to validate the build. The build is the most straightforward experience possible, and it doesn't really matter how "easy" the passives make the combat when he's going to do the exact same thing against every opponent anyway. Even something like a "Mirage variant" is going to have almost identical gameplay. Mega low IQ.

    Nope the version without Chaosline has way harder to land because way more predictable and for that easy to counter oneshot tries and then, when failigng the oneshot, has also less passive tools to survive. Means the variant without Chaosline has to outplay ppl way more to hit the burst and also to survive what makes it way less low IQ. Oneshot Mesmer still is the easiest out of all Powermesmer builds not carried by Inspiration or Chaos (still harder than any meta build) but then has no balance issue at all (except for Mantra of Pain). And complaining about that is then nothing more than a l2p issue.

    Just for the record, my complaints about mantra mesmer are no different than Sindrener's complaints about condi daredevil.

    BOTH of us can kill them reliably and understand how to fight against them. BOTH of us think that each respective build takes absolutely zero skill to play effectively.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).
    Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

    You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.
    Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.
    Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.
    Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

    Viquing sry but that gets too stupid, my argument is not that somethign is op/ lame or noobcarry, that is my conclusion. The other 10000 sentences in my wall of texts are the arguments and explanations WHY i think something is op. If you don't get these conversation basics i don't see a way to talk to you.

    What? Ofc Mirages use Chaosline, the meta build even after CI nerf is still Chaosline Condi Mirage because Mirage alone is more of an utiltiy spec than pure defensive. And the most defensive traits on Mirage are clearly more active. I never said delete defensive stuff, i said delete PASSIVE defensive stuff. Just as i said delete PASSIVE offensive stuff like too strong condiclones (i don't even say clone ambushes should make zero dmg but it needs to be way less and for that more active ways of condi application).

    Yes Chrono had defensive tools like shield added. But it is active that is the difference.

    Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments.
    Mirage used illusion instead of chaos before they nerf vigor.
    Shield = hit me with your imblocable please.

    "Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments."

    Yeah @viquing.8254, it's funny you noticed that too. People have been telling Bravan that for the past few days but he still doesn't get it.

    Look at my responses to him on this page in another one of my threads. There have been a ton of other people telling him the same thing lol.

    If you mean the Ranger thread there was only one person jumping in for you right after you got banned. Coincidence ofc and i could explain pretty well why it didn't make sense at all what he accused me of. So pls :joy:

    No, not just the ranger thread. Several people have told you that in this one as well.

    The ban was stupid. I got 3 infraction points for literally nothing. They said "blah blah blah in the post quoted" but didn't even quote/remove a post so I don't know what I got banned for.

    Again, saying "I could explain pretty well" but then not explaining anything sums up nearly all of your recent posts.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236

    Sry i don't remember any other person except the one jumping in for you for no reason after i stopped responding to you already for the exact same reasons he tried to accuse me. And in this thread it is more or less only Viquing. You also can't count either it seems. Again for you: subtract one sentence from my wall of text not having an explaining character and you get the insane amount of arguments i wrtite in all my posts. You can disagree with me, i don't mind that at all but saying i have no arguments is obviously, factually wrong- And you even agreed to most of my arguments in your previous complain Mesmer thread (even though it was more because you had no arguments left to continue fighting but it shows how hypocrite you are), you even repeated how you found me reasonable in most parts even in the Ranger thread in your first response to me.

    But i remember why i stopped talking in Mesmer threads not only to you as a person. It is funny how the "nerf everything even stuff that is not broken on Mesmer" guy tries to reunite with the "don't nerf anything on Mesmer " guy :joy: I doubt that friendship will last for long. But even if it does, you can 10v1 logic and still lose you know? That is why i don't need to mention the amount of ppl disagreeing with you just like i do. I don't need reinforcement, i win by arguments not by masses. Still a waste of time, so i am once again out here (until i get triggered by something i find so obviously wrong that i need to interact again :expressionless: )

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).
    Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

    You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.
    Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.
    Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.
    Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

    Viquing sry but that gets too stupid, my argument is not that somethign is op/ lame or noobcarry, that is my conclusion. The other 10000 sentences in my wall of texts are the arguments and explanations WHY i think something is op. If you don't get these conversation basics i don't see a way to talk to you.

    What? Ofc Mirages use Chaosline, the meta build even after CI nerf is still Chaosline Condi Mirage because Mirage alone is more of an utiltiy spec than pure defensive. And the most defensive traits on Mirage are clearly more active. I never said delete defensive stuff, i said delete PASSIVE defensive stuff. Just as i said delete PASSIVE offensive stuff like too strong condiclones (i don't even say clone ambushes should make zero dmg but it needs to be way less and for that more active ways of condi application).

    Yes Chrono had defensive tools like shield added. But it is active that is the difference.

    Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments.
    Mirage used illusion instead of chaos before they nerf vigor.
    Shield = hit me with your imblocable please.

    "Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments."

    Yeah @viquing.8254, it's funny you noticed that too. People have been telling Bravan that for the past few days but he still doesn't get it.

    Look at my responses to him on this page in another one of my threads. There have been a ton of other people telling him the same thing lol.

    If you mean the Ranger thread there was only one person jumping in for you right after you got banned. Coincidence ofc and i could explain pretty well why it didn't make sense at all what he accused me of. So pls :joy:

    No, not just the ranger thread. Several people have told you that in this one as well.

    The ban was stupid. I got 3 infraction points for literally nothing. They said "blah blah blah in the post quoted" but didn't even quote/remove a post so I don't know what I got banned for.

    Again, saying "I could explain pretty well" but then not explaining anything sums up nearly all of your recent posts.

    Sry i don't remember any other person except the one jumping in for you for no reason after i stopped responding to you already for the exact same reasons he tried to accuse me. And in this thread it is more or less only Viquing. You also can't count either it seems. Again for you: subtract one sentece from my wall of text not having an explaining character and you get the insane amount of arguments i wrtite in all my posts.

    But i remember why i stopped talking in Mesmer threads not only to you as a person. It is funny how the "nerf everything even stuff that is not broken on Mesmer" guy tries to reunite with the "don't nerf anything on Mesmer " guy :joy: I doubt that friendship will last for long. But even if it does, you can 10v1 logic and still lose you know? That is why i don't need to mention the amount of ppl disagreeing with you just like i do. I don't need reinforcement, i win by arguments not by masses. Still a waste of time, so i am once again out here (until i get triggered by something i find so obviously wrong that i need to interact again :expressionless: )

    See? You just did it again.

    Read my post again. If you still don't get it, read it a third time. Repeat as needed.

    You literally just admitted you don't even back up any of your arguments. :joy:

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).
    Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

    You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.
    Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.
    Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.
    Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

    Viquing sry but that gets too stupid, my argument is not that somethign is op/ lame or noobcarry, that is my conclusion. The other 10000 sentences in my wall of texts are the arguments and explanations WHY i think something is op. If you don't get these conversation basics i don't see a way to talk to you.

    What? Ofc Mirages use Chaosline, the meta build even after CI nerf is still Chaosline Condi Mirage because Mirage alone is more of an utiltiy spec than pure defensive. And the most defensive traits on Mirage are clearly more active. I never said delete defensive stuff, i said delete PASSIVE defensive stuff. Just as i said delete PASSIVE offensive stuff like too strong condiclones (i don't even say clone ambushes should make zero dmg but it needs to be way less and for that more active ways of condi application).

    Yes Chrono had defensive tools like shield added. But it is active that is the difference.

    Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments.
    Mirage used illusion instead of chaos before they nerf vigor.
    Shield = hit me with your imblocable please.

    "Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments."

    Yeah @viquing.8254, it's funny you noticed that too. People have been telling Bravan that for the past few days but he still doesn't get it.

    Look at my responses to him on this page in another one of my threads. There have been a ton of other people telling him the same thing lol.

    If you mean the Ranger thread there was only one person jumping in for you right after you got banned. Coincidence ofc and i could explain pretty well why it didn't make sense at all what he accused me of. So pls :joy:

    No, not just the ranger thread. Several people have told you that in this one as well.

    The ban was stupid. I got 3 infraction points for literally nothing. They said "blah blah blah in the post quoted" but didn't even quote/remove a post so I don't know what I got banned for.

    Again, saying "I could explain pretty well" but then not explaining anything sums up nearly all of your recent posts.

    Sry i don't remember any other person except the one jumping in for you for no reason after i stopped responding to you already for the exact same reasons he tried to accuse me. And in this thread it is more or less only Viquing. You also can't count either it seems. Again for you: subtract one sentece from my wall of text not having an explaining character and you get the insane amount of arguments i wrtite in all my posts.

    But i remember why i stopped talking in Mesmer threads not only to you as a person. It is funny how the "nerf everything even stuff that is not broken on Mesmer" guy tries to reunite with the "don't nerf anything on Mesmer " guy :joy: I doubt that friendship will last for long. But even if it does, you can 10v1 logic and still lose you know? That is why i don't need to mention the amount of ppl disagreeing with you just like i do. I don't need reinforcement, i win by arguments not by masses. Still a waste of time, so i am once again out here (until i get triggered by something i find so obviously wrong that i need to interact again :expressionless: )

    See? You just did it again.

    Read my post again. If you still don't get it, read it a third time. Repeat as needed.

    You literally just admitted you don't even back up any of your arguments. :joy:

    My back up is in every single post of me and just only because i refused to quote my mesmer responses into a Ranger thread where it doesn't belong doesn't make it unhappen. And i don't restart this kitten with you here. Read the other Mesmer complain thread of yours it is all there.
    If you still don't get it, read it a third time. Repeat as needed.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    You never saw me just crying "this is op". I always explain very detailed and (how i think) very well and based on logic and gameknowledge WHY i think something is op. That is why you fear me more than Shadow because i have better arguments. And don't say i complain step by step about different things after one thing is nerfed. I always since game release complained over the same things and that not only for Mesmer. The only difference is that other ppl in this forum only start to complain about stuff when it actually gets played and rekt them. That is the point i jump in but i never open a complain thread myself. For Mesmer my complain thread would have been the same since game release: " Rework Chaos and Inspirationline on Mesmer" (rework not just delete, so we would not have only one Monobuild left when listening to me, even without these 2 traitlines Mesmer still has tons of different builds but i don't even say delete i say rework into something more active and skillful and i would do that with every class not only Mesmer).
    Mirage is less of a defensive traitline than an utility traitline and the traits with a more defensive direction are clearly less passive and/ or less broken than Chaos or Inspiration (except for EM what is nerfed into the ground so doesn't rly exist). Mirage on power is not overperforming at all. There is a reason every overperforming Mesmer build since game release used either Chaos or Inspiration or even both no matter if Core, Chrono or Mirage.

    You haven't better argument. Sorry but "it carry", 'it's noob thing" and other superlative subjective things aren't in any way good arguments.
    Every overperforming mesmer build use either chaos or inspiration because a good build need defensive tools and not be a one trick build who get hard countered by thieves since release.
    Did chrono provide defensive tools ? no so you get inspi or chaos.
    Did every mirage build use chaos ? no, there were duel/illu/mirage build meta more than the today chaos on condi and power mirage rarely use chaos. The main reason the current condi mirage build use chaos is for the vigor uptime to synergize with ambush.

    Viquing sry but that gets too stupid, my argument is not that somethign is op/ lame or noobcarry, that is my conclusion. The other 10000 sentences in my wall of texts are the arguments and explanations WHY i think something is op. If you don't get these conversation basics i don't see a way to talk to you.

    What? Ofc Mirages use Chaosline, the meta build even after CI nerf is still Chaosline Condi Mirage because Mirage alone is more of an utiltiy spec than pure defensive. And the most defensive traits on Mirage are clearly more active. I never said delete defensive stuff, i said delete PASSIVE defensive stuff. Just as i said delete PASSIVE offensive stuff like too strong condiclones (i don't even say clone ambushes should make zero dmg but it needs to be way less and for that more active ways of condi application).

    Yes Chrono had defensive tools like shield added. But it is active that is the difference.

    Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments.
    Mirage used illusion instead of chaos before they nerf vigor.
    Shield = hit me with your imblocable please.

    "Again I read each wall of text you wrote and the number of subjective assertions are far more present than real arguments."

    Yeah @viquing.8254, it's funny you noticed that too. People have been telling Bravan that for the past few days but he still doesn't get it.

    Look at my responses to him on this page in another one of my threads. There have been a ton of other people telling him the same thing lol.

    If you mean the Ranger thread there was only one person jumping in for you right after you got banned. Coincidence ofc and i could explain pretty well why it didn't make sense at all what he accused me of. So pls :joy:

    No, not just the ranger thread. Several people have told you that in this one as well.

    The ban was stupid. I got 3 infraction points for literally nothing. They said "blah blah blah in the post quoted" but didn't even quote/remove a post so I don't know what I got banned for.

    Again, saying "I could explain pretty well" but then not explaining anything sums up nearly all of your recent posts.

    Sry i don't remember any other person except the one jumping in for you for no reason after i stopped responding to you already for the exact same reasons he tried to accuse me. And in this thread it is more or less only Viquing. You also can't count either it seems. Again for you: subtract one sentece from my wall of text not having an explaining character and you get the insane amount of arguments i wrtite in all my posts.

    But i remember why i stopped talking in Mesmer threads not only to you as a person. It is funny how the "nerf everything even stuff that is not broken on Mesmer" guy tries to reunite with the "don't nerf anything on Mesmer " guy :joy: I doubt that friendship will last for long. But even if it does, you can 10v1 logic and still lose you know? That is why i don't need to mention the amount of ppl disagreeing with you just like i do. I don't need reinforcement, i win by arguments not by masses. Still a waste of time, so i am once again out here (until i get triggered by something i find so obviously wrong that i need to interact again :expressionless: )

    See? You just did it again.

    Read my post again. If you still don't get it, read it a third time. Repeat as needed.

    You literally just admitted you don't even back up any of your arguments. :joy:

    My back up is in every single post of me and just only because i refused to quote my mesmer responses into a Ranger thread where it doesn't belong doesn't make it unhappen. And i don't restart this kitten with you here. Read the other Mesmer complain thread of yours it is all there.
    If you still don't get it, read it a third time. Repeat as needed.

    See? You just did it again.

    Read my post again. If you still don't get it, read it a third time. Repeat as needed.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    How long/often will you spam that? Until you get banned for nonsense/ off topic? This is kindergarten lvl seriously. As said i am out, stuff doesn't get truer when you repeat it again and again. As usual you just ignore my arguments but i get why, otherwise you cannot lie to yourself that i doesn't have any. Read your previous Mesmer thread, it is all there, every back up i need and i don't say it again. And i also don't spam this thread with examples, make it unnecessary for you to re-read your old thread because you will just ignore them again (if you want examples re-read your Ranger thread). Waste of time talking to someone not even interested in a constructive conversation only in corrupting arguments with nonsense. Spam this thread yourself i am not helping you until your friend jumps in and accuse me of spamming rofl. Just argue with your new friend Viquing why nothing on Mesmer is lame and why nothing needs a nerf.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    There is absolutely nothing skillful about playing staff /scepter X chaos mirage. Literally nothing.

    YEAH WE ALL KNOW THAT THE BEST PLAYER PLAY WITH HIS FEET BECAUSE IT'S SKILL !

    Thanks for your intervention.

    That's not what I said, nor what I meant. Mirage, and infinite horizon promotes a very "spammy" play style. Couple that with perma protect, vigor, regen and a lot of aegis / scepter blocks. Distort and instant cast reposition with jaunt and staff 2. The ability to dodge after eating the stun is by definition not skillful.

    But hey, good to see you still can't hold an objective discussion.
    Arguments backed by nothing but feelings won't really get you anywhere. Take a step back, look at the facts and after that respond.

    Much like how I'm a guardian main, I know core guardian is easy to play. In theory, it's however very weak now making it harder to compete. But in it's core, it's not a skillful class. The only hard part about guardian compared to every other spec is having to manage cooldowns in a completely different way.

    You are welcome,
    Mirage have to invest way more trait to be "perma vigor" than most other class because his gameplay is currently based on clone ambush wheither it is condi or direct. (and weither we like it or not.)
    The ability to dodge after a stunt, to pop a good stability uptime or to have access to evade weapon skill is the same. Don't think class are played for the difficulty they provide.
    I can hold a discussion as long as it's not random fact split out. And the facts are that mesmer isn't more spammy than other class.

  • @viquing.8254 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    There is absolutely nothing skillful about playing staff /scepter X chaos mirage. Literally nothing.

    YEAH WE ALL KNOW THAT THE BEST PLAYER PLAY WITH HIS FEET BECAUSE IT'S SKILL !

    Thanks for your intervention.

    That's not what I said, nor what I meant. Mirage, and infinite horizon promotes a very "spammy" play style. Couple that with perma protect, vigor, regen and a lot of aegis / scepter blocks. Distort and instant cast reposition with jaunt and staff 2. The ability to dodge after eating the stun is by definition not skillful.

    But hey, good to see you still can't hold an objective discussion.
    Arguments backed by nothing but feelings won't really get you anywhere. Take a step back, look at the facts and after that respond.

    Much like how I'm a guardian main, I know core guardian is easy to play. In theory, it's however very weak now making it harder to compete. But in it's core, it's not a skillful class. The only hard part about guardian compared to every other spec is having to manage cooldowns in a completely different way.

    You are welcome,
    Mirage have to invest way more trait to be "perma vigor" than most other class because his gameplay is currently based on clone ambush wheither it is condi or direct. (and weither we like it or not.)
    The ability to dodge after a stunt, to pop a good stability uptime or to have access to evade weapon skill is the same. Don't think class are played for the difficulty they provide.
    I can hold a discussion as long as it's not random fact split out. And the facts are that mesmer isn't more spammy than other class.

    Choosing not to run any stability in your build because you can't be punished by eating stuns isn't the same as bringing stab to anticipate incoming attacks. You seen hell bent on disputing every wrong thing on mesmer so it's clearly not worth holding an argument with you.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    1) Stealth spam is currently a myth and base his survival only on stealth isn't a good idea btw. Can you again stop making assertion ending to nerfing everything. What's the next target after chaosline just to be prepared ? (probably mirage line isn"t it ?)
    2) Chaos = more survival at the cost of less damage. It's a choice. Wheter it's easier to land a higher burst without chaos or to have better survival is a subjective opinion.

    No that is exactly the point, he uses Chaosline and still has enough dmg to oneshot certain builds and would not even need Mantra of Pain for that. There never was a single build on Mesmer broken without using one or even both low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos), no matter what elite spec/ core (and it is like that since game release and i vote for rework into something more active with higher skill ceiling since game release). On Mirage only the passive condi application from clones (what is already a problem on core btw, compare condiclone normal autoattack dmg to powerclone autoattack dmg, and condi ambushes to power ambushes) is a problem. They need to give Condimesmer more active ways to apply condis and nerf condiclones autoattacks and ambushattacks into the ground for that. Aside from that Mirage is fine. They should rework EM into something active and not gamebreaking so Mirage has another good trait there. Instead they keep a broken mechanic nerfed to death so no one can use it.

    Well if I do the history : they run over your nerfs suggestions of CI and LT and you still find always something low ceiling etc. Maybe just sit one day and enjoy the game, particulary when mesmer is far to have 3 on 1 clicks.

    About mirage vs chaos, both are defensive line : mirage giving sword mobility and more damage thanks to ambush while llowing to evade during CC when you don't anticipate an attack.
    Chaos in comparison give only defensive tools.
    IMO a normal build should have at least one defensive line to be viable, we aren't in PvE were you can go 3 dps lines.
    What you call low skill ceiling are the two defensive lines. Again : the full zerk domi/duel/mirage or domi/duel/illusion hopefully aren't the only way to play in a skilled way. Can you get it one day ?

    And even if I'm all to have mesmer doing 0 damage by clone and all by weapon, the day they put normal DPS on 3 scepter we get plethora of whine while necro axe who does more damage than pre-nerf scepter 3 is fine. Logic...

    It is always funny how i am more on your side here with trying to avoid shadowpass nerfing even not broken stuff on Mesmer into the ground and you always fall into my back. Mesmer mains...

    You are only on the nerf mesmer side but nerfing it step by step leaving broken spec or unfun things.
    And 80% of your nerfs are justified by being "carry" "low ceiling" "easy to play".
    Remember me when you do fine suggestion about reworking ?
    If we listen all you say we will end with one monobuild.

    PS : I dislike the current passive ambush condimirage meta gameplay, but it's the only viable way to play pass a certain level...

    There is absolutely nothing skillful about playing staff /scepter X chaos mirage. Literally nothing.

    YEAH WE ALL KNOW THAT THE BEST PLAYER PLAY WITH HIS FEET BECAUSE IT'S SKILL !

    Thanks for your intervention.

    That's not what I said, nor what I meant. Mirage, and infinite horizon promotes a very "spammy" play style. Couple that with perma protect, vigor, regen and a lot of aegis / scepter blocks. Distort and instant cast reposition with jaunt and staff 2. The ability to dodge after eating the stun is by definition not skillful.

    But hey, good to see you still can't hold an objective discussion.
    Arguments backed by nothing but feelings won't really get you anywhere. Take a step back, look at the facts and after that respond.

    Much like how I'm a guardian main, I know core guardian is easy to play. In theory, it's however very weak now making it harder to compete. But in it's core, it's not a skillful class. The only hard part about guardian compared to every other spec is having to manage cooldowns in a completely different way.

    You are welcome,
    Mirage have to invest way more trait to be "perma vigor" than most other class because his gameplay is currently based on clone ambush wheither it is condi or direct. (and weither we like it or not.)
    The ability to dodge after a stunt, to pop a good stability uptime or to have access to evade weapon skill is the same. Don't think class are played for the difficulty they provide.
    I can hold a discussion as long as it's not random fact split out. And the facts are that mesmer isn't more spammy than other class.

    Choosing not to run any stability in your build because you can't be punished by eating stuns isn't the same as bringing stab to anticipate incoming attacks. You seen hell bent on disputing every wrong thing on mesmer so it's clearly not worth holding an argument with you.

    Ho come on, 80% of people using stab either :
    1) pop it passively during normal cycle.
    2) pop it for a long duration then don't care about it.
    There is less than few players who use stab to anticipate incomings attacks.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2019

    I've updated the original post with 16 new games.

    I hate solo quing. I can farm the enemy team all game and still lose because teammates throw, feed, rotate horribly, etc. etc.

    So many stupid losses today.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I've updated the original post with 16 new games.

    I hate solo quing. I can farm the enemy team all game and still lose because teammates throw, feed, rotate horribly, etc. etc.

    So many stupid losses today.

    Good thing you are not one of the players who didn't believe it when other players say that their garbage team mates are ruining their games and rating.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Thief is my obsession.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I've updated the original post with 16 new games.

    I hate solo quing. I can farm the enemy team all game and still lose because teammates throw, feed, rotate horribly, etc. etc.

    So many stupid losses today.

    Good thing you are not one of the players who didn't believe it when other players say that their garbage team mates are ruining their games and rating.

    The majority of players who blame their teammates have glaring L2P issues.

    Now, I'm not saying I play perfectly... but there's a base level of contribution I expect from my teammates every match. I shouldn't lose games when I'm going 15-1. Yes, I maybe made a few small mistakes, but come on! I can only do so much every game.

    You'll hear me say stuff like, "I just need teammates that don't feed and we win." because it's true. If I'm constantly killing/downing the enemy team but they end up getting rallied/my teammates wipe on the other two nodes... it's like a break even. I can't be at two nodes at the same time which is why duo que is necessary.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I've updated the original post with 16 new games.

    I hate solo quing. I can farm the enemy team all game and still lose because teammates throw, feed, rotate horribly, etc. etc.

    So many stupid losses today.

    Good thing you are not one of the players who didn't believe it when other players say that their garbage team mates are ruining their games and rating.

    The majority of players who blame their teammates have glaring L2P issues.

    Now, I'm not saying I play perfectly... but there's a base level of contribution I expect from my teammates every match. I shouldn't lose games when I'm going 15-1. Yes, I maybe made a few small mistakes, but come on! I can only do so much every game.

    You'll hear me say stuff like, "I just need teammates that don't feed and we win." because it's true. If I'm constantly killing/downing the enemy team but they end up getting rallied/my teammates wipe on the other two nodes... it's like a break even. I can't be at two nodes at the same time which is why duo que is necessary.

    if only you played a class that could not only down but also finish off players 1vX, or a class that could res bad teammates, alas you play mantra mesmer, a tradeoff.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I've updated the original post with 16 new games.

    I hate solo quing. I can farm the enemy team all game and still lose because teammates throw, feed, rotate horribly, etc. etc.

    So many stupid losses today.

    Good thing you are not one of the players who didn't believe it when other players say that their garbage team mates are ruining their games and rating.

    The majority of players who blame their teammates have glaring L2P issues.

    Now, I'm not saying I play perfectly... but there's a base level of contribution I expect from my teammates every match. I shouldn't lose games when I'm going 15-1. Yes, I maybe made a few small mistakes, but come on! I can only do so much every game.

    You'll hear me say stuff like, "I just need teammates that don't feed and we win." because it's true. If I'm constantly killing/downing the enemy team but they end up getting rallied/my teammates wipe on the other two nodes... it's like a break even. I can't be at two nodes at the same time which is why duo que is necessary.

    if only you played a class that could not only down but also finish off players 1vX, or a class that could res bad teammates, alas you play mantra mesmer, a tradeoff.

    My issue with mantra mesmer is the speed, strength, and frequency of the burst. These builds are extremely efficient at downing one or more people at a time.

    By that logic, my teammates should be able to win 4v3 (or less) if I'm consistently downing people at the start/during a fight. However, that's not the case.

    I run into the same issues playing other classes as well. I can get downs, but my teammates rally the enemy team and feed on the other two points. It's not a "tradeoff" to playing mantra mesmer. It just means that Conquest is extremely difficult to carry alone because you can only be on ONE out of THREE nodes at a time and you need TWO nodes to win. In other words, you need at least one teammate to depend on in order to win the match.

    There are so many scenarios where I'm unable to leave a fight to decap because I know my teammate(s) will die. But, they never/rarely go to decap themselves. So, I end up getting stuck between a rock and a hard place more often than I would like.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2019

    If anyone wants to see the perspective of someone fighting on the opposing team here you go:

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/490468548?t=05h54m30s

    Time is 5h 54m when the match starts just in case the link doesn't work.

    Edit: NSFW it does contain some strong language depending on your disposition.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    If anyone wants to see the perspective of someone fighting on the opposing team here you go:

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/490468548?t=05h54m30s

    Time is 5h 54m when the match starts just in case the link doesn't work.

    Edit: NSFW it does contain some strong language depending on your disposition.

    6:04:50 thats some manly mirage.
    ps at ¬¬ 5:57 is the only "burst" he managed to land did around 11k dmg.
    so his can stealth and run across the map and 1shot anyone no counterplay doesnt really hold it, now does it ?

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    If anyone wants to see the perspective of someone fighting on the opposing team here you go:

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/490468548?t=05h54m30s

    Time is 5h 54m when the match starts just in case the link doesn't work.

    Edit: NSFW it does contain some strong language depending on your disposition.

    6:04:50 thats some manly mirage.
    ps at ¬¬ 5:57 is the only "burst" he managed to land did around 11k dmg.
    so his can stealth and run across the map and 1shot anyone no counterplay doesnt really hold it, now does it ?

    I posted it to show another perspective, it's up to everyone else to scrutinise it and draw their own conclusions but it's worth saying, 1 match a trend does not set which is why this thread was made.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2019

    I played some more with this build, or more like with its variation, instead of mental anguish i use GS trait, I switch schoolar for eagle, and put % dmg mods on my GS.
    you lose endu and quickness on weapon swap, but gain more reliable crit chance, perma cripple and more sustain damage while ahving preety much the same burst.

    EDIT, its much better against necros due to not many dodges on them, and much better at cleaving due to gs4 + f1 shatter having much more aoe burst during rez.

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