[Merged] Oh cool you must buy more build slots

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Kas.3509" said:if I'm using legendary armor I am stuck with one look for every build and people with ascended armor are not.In fact, they are. You missed the point where they explained that all 6 gear loadouts share the same color setting. I know, i missed that the first time as well, someone else pointed that out to me.I know, that "the same color setting" still leaves a bit for creativity, but that would practically destroy all the carefully crafted images for my characters i have worked quite a long time for. Besides, many armor skins just don't look good with certain color settings, and those favored/unfavored colors are generally not the same for different armor sets.

[Obtena.7952]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:That's fine. My argument is that if you don't think something is of value to you, you shouldn't buy it. It works itself out naturally. The fact you don't need it is why this isn't a problem if you think it's not value to you.No, i meant that your meaning of "need" is so narrow it is not an argument, because you can explain locking

anything

away behind gemshop purchases that way. Unlocking classes, especs, skills, traitlines... you don't

need

those to play the game. You don't even need dodge roll, so why don't we lock it also behind a purchase?

There is only meaning of need. My meaning isn't narrow, it's correct. Maybe you think it's clever to misappropriate words to confuse the conversation ... I'm pretty sure that some of the more elevated people can see right through that.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's fine. My argument is that if you don't think something is of value to you, you shouldn't buy it. It works itself out naturally. The fact you don't need it is why this isn't a problem if you think it's not value to you.No, i meant that your meaning of "need" is so narrow it is not an argument, because you can explain locking

anything

away behind gemshop purchases that way. Unlocking classes, especs, skills, traitlines... you don't

need

those to play the game. You don't even need dodge roll, so why don't we lock it also behind a purchase?

There is only meaning of need. My meaning isn't narrow, it's correct. Maybe you think it's clever to misappropriate words to confuse the conversation ... I'm pretty sure that some of the more elevated people can see right through that.Okay, do tell. What exactly in this game is needed to play it? Is there anything that cannot be put in gemshop using an "you don't need it to play" as explanation?

[Taygus.4571]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's fine. My argument is that if you don't think something is of value to you, you shouldn't buy it. It works itself out naturally. The fact you don't need it is why this isn't a problem if you think it's not value to you.No, i meant that your meaning of "need" is so narrow it is not an argument, because you can explain locking

anything

away behind gemshop purchases that way. Unlocking classes, especs, skills, traitlines... you don't

need

those to play the game. You don't even need dodge roll, so why don't we lock it also behind a purchase?

There is only meaning of need. My meaning isn't narrow, it's correct. Maybe you think it's clever to misappropriate words to confuse the conversation ... I'm pretty sure that some of the more elevated people can see right through that.

need/niːd/Learn to pronounceverb1.require (something) because it is essential or very important rather than just desirable.

It is very important and almost essential to have different builds to be an effective member of your raid team.

You might not need it, as you don't play many roles, or game types butBuild templates are not just desirable but essential for the hardcore crowd.

Anet knows this..and by the sounds of it will be taking advantage of it, by over charging for the complete product.

This could very well backfire with players getting frustrated and leaving.

[Obtena.7952]

@Taygus.4571 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's fine. My argument is that if you don't think something is of value to you, you shouldn't buy it. It works itself out naturally. The fact you don't need it is why this isn't a problem if you think it's not value to you.No, i meant that your meaning of "need" is so narrow it is not an argument, because you can explain locking

anything

away behind gemshop purchases that way. Unlocking classes, especs, skills, traitlines... you don't

need

those to play the game. You don't even need dodge roll, so why don't we lock it also behind a purchase?

There is only meaning of need. My meaning isn't narrow, it's correct. Maybe you think it's clever to misappropriate words to confuse the conversation ... I'm pretty sure that some of the more elevated people can see right through that.

need/niːd/Learn to pronounceverb1.require (something) because it is essential or very important rather than just desirable.

It is very important and almost essential to have different builds to be an effective member of your raid team.

OK ... that doesn't mean you need templates. Funny you quote me the definition ... then you ignore it.

[Obtena.7952]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's fine. My argument is that if you don't think something is of value to you, you shouldn't buy it. It works itself out naturally. The fact you don't need it is why this isn't a problem if you think it's not value to you.No, i meant that your meaning of "need" is so narrow it is not an argument, because you can explain locking

anything

away behind gemshop purchases that way. Unlocking classes, especs, skills, traitlines... you don't

need

those to play the game. You don't even need dodge roll, so why don't we lock it also behind a purchase?

There is only meaning of need. My meaning isn't narrow, it's correct. Maybe you think it's clever to misappropriate words to confuse the conversation ... I'm pretty sure that some of the more elevated people can see right through that.Okay, do tell. What exactly in this game is needed to play it? Is there anything that cannot be put in gemshop using an "you don't need it to play" as explanation?

Not templates.

[Acheron.4731]

@Swagger.1459 said:@susana.7814 Don't be ungrateful, especially since you don’t pay a mandatory monthly fee to play this game. Maybe learn about the costs of running a business, employees costs and about taxes before you decide to complain again.

Is there not a greater cost in sowing ill-will?Don't be naive. A one time money grab that erodes the good-will of the community is ultimately bad for business not good

[Taygus.4571]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's fine. My argument is that if you don't think something is of value to you, you shouldn't buy it. It works itself out naturally. The fact you don't need it is why this isn't a problem if you think it's not value to you.No, i meant that your meaning of "need" is so narrow it is not an argument, because you can explain locking

anything

away behind gemshop purchases that way. Unlocking classes, especs, skills, traitlines... you don't

need

those to play the game. You don't even need dodge roll, so why don't we lock it also behind a purchase?

There is only meaning of need. My meaning isn't narrow, it's correct. Maybe you think it's clever to misappropriate words to confuse the conversation ... I'm pretty sure that some of the more elevated people can see right through that.

need/niːd/Learn to pronounceverb1.require (something) because it is essential or very important rather than just desirable.

It is very important and almost essential to have different builds to be an effective member of your raid team.

OK ... that doesn't mean you need templates. Funny you quote me the definition ... then you ignore it.

You're the one ignoring it.

Just because they aren't needed for you..doesn't mean other players don't need them.

In fact players have been needing build templates for years... They've just been using character slots and then arc (Which fully takes advantage of ledgie gear) to get them.

[Seera.5916]

@Acheron.4731 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@susana.7814 Don't be ungrateful, especially since you don’t pay a mandatory monthly fee to play this game. Maybe learn about the costs of running a business, employees costs and about taxes before you decide to complain again.

Is there not a greater cost in sowing ill-will?Don't be naive. A one time money grab that erodes the good-will of the community is ultimately bad for business not good

I haven't seen anywhere where they've stated the costs of things. They didn't know what prices things were going to be during the guild chat. the only thing they said was the equipment tabs would likely be priced based on other storage expanders since they store inventory. They did state that they have been designed to hold 60 items (if literally everything in the inventory that it stores is legendary which is not currently the case, they were just future proofing it).

Did they post somewhere else what they thought the prices were going to be?

[Acheron.4731]

@Seera.5916 said:

@Acheron.4731 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@susana.7814 Don't be ungrateful, especially since you don’t pay a mandatory monthly fee to play this game. Maybe learn about the costs of running a business, employees costs and about taxes before you decide to complain again.

Is there not a greater cost in sowing ill-will?Don't be naive. A one time money grab that erodes the good-will of the community is ultimately bad for business not good

I haven't seen anywhere where they've stated the costs of things. They didn't know what prices things were going to be during the guild chat. the only thing they said was the equipment tabs would likely be priced based on other storage expanders since they store inventory. They did state that they have been designed to hold 60 items (if literally everything in the inventory that it stores is legendary which is not currently the case, they were just future proofing it).

Did they post somewhere else what they thought the prices were going to be?

Not that I am aware of yet. Only speculation based off of storage expansion, bank tabs etc is all I have seen :)

[Taygus.4571]

@Seera.5916 said:

@Acheron.4731 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:I haven't seen anywhere where they've stated the costs of things. They didn't know what prices things were going to be during the guild chat. the only thing they said was the equipment tabs would likely be priced based on other storage expanders since they store inventory. They did state that they have been designed to hold 60 items (if literally everything in the inventory that it stores is legendary which is not currently the case, they were just future proofing it).

Did they post somewhere else what they thought the prices were going to be?

from other storage items.

One can estimate between 400-600 gems( 400gems for bag slots, 600vems for bank tabs)

As the gear templates appear to be per character, and are a bag that saves your gear set...one can estimate it'll be about 600 per gear template per character.

That will get expensive, fast.

Not to mentioms, they're also charging for trait templates and account shared templates.(even if these are less than 400 gems, its still extortionate. )

[Seera.5916]

@Acheron.4731 said:

@Seera.5916 said:

@Acheron.4731 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@susana.7814 Don't be ungrateful, especially since you don’t pay a mandatory monthly fee to play this game. Maybe learn about the costs of running a business, employees costs and about taxes before you decide to complain again.

Is there not a greater cost in sowing ill-will?Don't be naive. A one time money grab that erodes the good-will of the community is ultimately bad for business not good

I haven't seen anywhere where they've stated the costs of things. They didn't know what prices things were going to be during the guild chat. the only thing they said was the equipment tabs would likely be priced based on other storage expanders since they store inventory. They did state that they have been designed to hold 60 items (if literally everything in the inventory that it stores is legendary which is not currently the case, they were just future proofing it).

Did they post somewhere else what they thought the prices were going to be?

Not that I am aware of yet. Only speculation based off of storage expansion, bank tabs etc is all I have seen :)

I'll be fine if the equipment tabs are that price (though they should give a third for free to match the build templates, how many builds use the same equipment?).

Build templates and build template storage should be relatively cheap to expand if they don't just make them free because it's way too easy to live with just the ones given since it works by chat codes.

[Taygus.4571]

@Seera.5916 said:

@Acheron.4731 said:

@Seera.5916 said:

@Acheron.4731 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@susana.7814 Don't be ungrateful, especially since you don’t pay a mandatory monthly fee to play this game. Maybe learn about the costs of running a business, employees costs and about taxes before you decide to complain again.

Is there not a greater cost in sowing ill-will?Don't be naive. A one time money grab that erodes the good-will of the community is ultimately bad for business not good

I haven't seen anywhere where they've stated the costs of things. They didn't know what prices things were going to be during the guild chat. the only thing they said was the equipment tabs would likely be priced based on other storage expanders since they store inventory. They did state that they have been designed to hold 60 items (if literally everything in the inventory that it stores is legendary which is not currently the case, they were just future proofing it).

Did they post somewhere else what they thought the prices were going to be?

Not that I am aware of yet. Only speculation based off of storage expansion, bank tabs etc is all I have seen :)

I'll be fine if the equipment tabs are that price (though they should give a third for free to match the build templates, how many builds use the same equipment?).

Build templates and build template storage should be relatively cheap to expand if they don't just make them free because it's way too easy to live with just the ones given since it works by

chat codes.

doesnt work for gear templates tho

[Seera.5916]

@Taygus.4571 said:

@Seera.5916 said:

@Acheron.4731 said:

@Seera.5916 said:

@Acheron.4731 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@susana.7814 Don't be ungrateful, especially since you don’t pay a mandatory monthly fee to play this game. Maybe learn about the costs of running a business, employees costs and about taxes before you decide to complain again.

Is there not a greater cost in sowing ill-will?Don't be naive. A one time money grab that erodes the good-will of the community is ultimately bad for business not good

I haven't seen anywhere where they've stated the costs of things. They didn't know what prices things were going to be during the guild chat. the only thing they said was the equipment tabs would likely be priced based on other storage expanders since they store inventory. They did state that they have been designed to hold 60 items (if literally everything in the inventory that it stores is legendary which is not currently the case, they were just future proofing it).

Did they post somewhere else what they thought the prices were going to be?

Not that I am aware of yet. Only speculation based off of storage expansion, bank tabs etc is all I have seen :)

I'll be fine if the equipment tabs are that price (though they should give a third for free to match the build templates, how many builds use the same equipment?).

Build templates and build template storage should be relatively cheap to expand if they don't just make them free because it's way too easy to live with just the ones given since it works by

chat codes.

doesnt work for gear templates tho

Like I said, build templates and build template storage need to be relatively cheap if they don't change their mind on monetizing them because it's not hard to work within those confines given the chat codes.

But since equipment tabs do store inventory freeing up bag slots this will reduce the purchase of bag and/or bank slots so I am fine if ANet prices them at that level.

I think they'd be better served making them less expensive since they can't hold just anything and can only hold one glove at a time. It's not going to be able to hold all of the loot that you get whereas a bag slot would. So maybe around the 200-300 gem price given the limitations of quantity and type of items it can hold would at least be closer to ideal.

[Obtena.7952]

@Taygus.4571 said:In fact players have been needing build templates for years... They've just been using character slots and then arc (Which fully takes advantage of ledgie gear) to get them.

No they haven't because they could play the game without them. That means they aren't needed. They are convenience, nice ot have .. but they aren't NEEDED>

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

I’ll never understand why the moment something is announced that has been requested for ages, it’s criticized. Too little, not free enough, scamming our money. sigh

They run a business right? It just baffles me at how many people think they could do so much better of a job and yet they are playing the game continually and not writing their own game and showing us all “how it’s done”.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:In fact players have been needing build templates for years... They've just been using character slots and then arc (Which fully takes advantage of ledgie gear) to get them.

No they haven't because they could play the game without them. That means they aren't needed. They are convenience, nice ot have .. but they aren't NEEDED>You still haven't mentioned what in this game you think

is

needed. Because i don't see anything in your interpretation that would prevent anet from slapping a price on practically

everything

.

@Acheron.4731 said:

@Seera.5916 said:Did they post somewhere else what they thought the prices were going to be?

Not that I am aware of yet. Only speculation based off of storage expansion, bank tabs etc is all I have seen :)

Those speculations are based on what they said on stream when discussing cost - they said that they consider the unlocks to be worth basically the same as bag slots/bank tabs. And those are worth 400 and 600 gems respectively.

[Obtena.7952]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:In fact players have been needing build templates for years... They've just been using character slots and then arc (Which fully takes advantage of ledgie gear) to get them.

No they haven't because they could play the game without them. That means they aren't needed. They are convenience, nice ot have .. but they aren't NEEDED>You still haven't mentioned what in this game you think

is

needed. Because i don't see anything in your interpretation that would prevent anet from slapping a price on practically

everything

.

You are right ... there ISN'T anything that prevents Anet from putting a price on practically everything; that's exactly how I would expect them to run a business ... by charging people for goods and services they provide.

Here is the fun part ... there is a price on practically everything. What have you got from Anet that you didn't pay for, aside from some minor things like birthday presents for your characters? There isn't much.

Make no mistake ... this is NOT a charity. The idea that Anet's offerings compete with other free and illegal offerings at the same level is a ridiculous notion and a dishonest comparison.

[Asum.4960]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:In fact players have been needing build templates for years... They've just been using character slots and then arc (Which fully takes advantage of ledgie gear) to get them.

No they haven't because they could play the game without them. That means they aren't needed. They are convenience, nice ot have .. but they aren't NEEDED>

So you would be fine with them charging for Dodge Roll charges, Utility skill uses and a premium on elite skill activations?Technically you don't need them to play or enjoy the game, some people didn't even use them until now I hear. They are just a nice convenience after all.

Seriously though, whenever a games monetisation turns seriously sour, there are always the consumers who, because they personally aren't affected yet defend them to the end and choose the weirdest arguments as hills to die on, until eventually their toys are taken away, chopped up and monetised to death.

[Obtena.7952]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:In fact players have been needing build templates for years... They've just been using character slots and then arc (Which fully takes advantage of ledgie gear) to get them.

No they haven't because they could play the game without them. That means they aren't needed. They are convenience, nice ot have .. but they aren't NEEDED>

So you would be fine with them charging for Dodge Roll charges, Utility skill uses and a premium on elite skill activations?Technically you don't need them to play or enjoy the game, some people didn't even use them until now I hear. They are just a nice convenience after all.

It would depend on the cost and the value the feature gave me, regardless of what it was. Just like any other offering in the GS.

The fun part is where I get to burst your bubble and tell you that you ... me ... EVERYONE who bought this game actually DID pay for dodge roll charges and utility skill uses and all that other stuff.

So really ... I am fine with it ... and so are you ... and so is anyone else that bought this game. Whether you want to admit it or not, any feature in this game, either pay per use or pay once ... you DID pay for. That's why it's completely dishonest when someone thinks we should get this for free ... because Anet is drowning us in free stuff all the time? Um, NO they aren't; they are a business and that's how they make money. It would actually be EXCEPTIONAL if they simply gave this feature for free.

[Kas.3509]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Kas.3509" said:if I'm using legendary armor I am stuck with one look for every build and people with ascended armor are not.In fact, they are. You missed the point where they explained that all 6 gear loadouts share the same color setting. I know, i missed that the first time as well, someone else pointed that out to me.I know, that "the same color setting" still leaves a bit for creativity, but that would practically destroy all the carefully crafted images for my characters i have worked quite a long time for. Besides, many armor skins just don't look good with certain color settings, and those favored/unfavored colors are generally not the same for different armor sets.

Well, they still can change the skins though. It will be annoying to pick skins and color settings that work all together but it is possible. Leg armor has no option for this at all... Id prefer very limited choice than no choice.

I wish they added separate skins and color settings for every template so both leg and ascended users could use it properly.

[lukebytes.4358]

I've read this thread and yikes, there's a lot of war here. im going to give my take because im kind of neutral in all this and i want to give both sides a decent understanding of one another.

First off, I want to address two major things to the people who want free templates. (not more templates because that's reasonable but I'll get into that later)

1. One guy in this entire thread said this better than i ever could. Guild Wars 2 is not Guild wars 1. That simple. Its business model isn't to pay for a game and get what's inside, its free to play. It's designed to get players in for free and get them into paying for stuff. wether I'd be gem store or expansions and the like. As Obtena said, it would be pretty darn generous to give out these things for free. And while it would be amazing, it's not gonna happen because of the business model, good or bad.
2. I probably don't need to say this since the doomsayers have done that for me tenfold, but anyway. Arena net is balanced on the head of a pin. Their only source of income is Guild Wars 2 and it's about the same for that game. If they didn't sell this convenience stuff and only supported pure cosmetics, while the game likely wouldn't die, their already decreasing income would be even less. they kind of have to do this stuff so they make more bank than what their using and NCsoft won't pull the plug. To expect free build templates in GW2 is raising expectations too high itself, but at this point, that expectation is pretty ludicrous.

Now, Do not think this means i am still in support of Anet's decision, unlike some other people of the opposite side. (again, neutral) i fully agree that 3 free build slots and 6 if you pay is simply not enough for many people. and the people trying to defend that problem with strawman's are wrong, simply put. That said, Anet, especially in the state it is, will not simply give us free stuff. it's an unfortunate decision, and heck, i don't even think it's a necessary decision, but it was an expected one.

Now, secondly, im gonna address some things to the "apologists" as well. Here, im going to respond to the points being made by them because there are some points that are not wrong, but misguided and I want to give a little insight and empathy for those against it. And there are also others that are just flat out wrong, and I want to tear into them.

"They are a convenience, not needed."Mostly fair. bank/bag storage is also paywalled, too. is it still bad? depends on opinion, in all honestly. but Astral really said something that should honestly be a wake-up call some conversations ago;

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"fewfield.7802" said:Ofc it's money-grabbing. Anet is doing BUSINESS not a charity. I dont wanna lose money neither but it's understandable.I can only feel sad about how much did the standarts change, and how much do we allow devs to get away with nowadays. Time after time we allow for the envelope to be pushed further and further. I really worry how bad it will be in 2-3 years from now.I mean, several years ago this would be considered to be an expansion feature - one of

many

expansion features. Now we have people defending the fact that this feature, alone, will probably cost more than an expac would.

I understand that it can just be a convenience, but look where that mentality has gotten us with other companies like EA, of course. many were fine with it because of this mentality. now? they've pretty much reduced every game they make to a virtual casino and it's apparently considered your average day now. do you want them to go that far? i get it, it's not essential to the game, but at least understand why they are so against it in our modern industry."were getting free stuff"No, your not. your getting a replacement, a replacement with less in fact. people who has plenty stored on ArcBuild now have to either pay to get less of what they already had, or get a binder. paid build templates were obvious given the model this game has, but your attempt to rationalize people who are angry thta they have to pay to get less by saying "it's free" are complete and utter dolyak droppings."your gonna buy it anyway"while i've only heard this from the last comment i've seen, Obtena's, it's a point made nonetheless.This is a strawman, hands down. your implying that everyone who's complaining about this is going to buy it anyway, which is centaur poo, not true, more simply put. don't really have much else to say here.

Anyway, that's my take. i really hope I've cleared up some of the bloodsheds this thread is making. i just don't like people who take everything to the absolute extreme. tnx for reading!

TL;DR: If your expecting free stuff, not gonna happen.

[particlepinata.9865]

Its just one of the many examples how things have changed from a contained light cashshop to more and more agressive cashshop tactics the last year. It is in no way comparable to earlier years. With no new buy to play full expac its quite obvious where this is going.

[Taygus.4571]

@lukebytes.4358

I don't think most players want it free... they want affordable

To play the 10+ builds they have...some people have 30+ builds. It would cost a rediculous fortune.And ultimately most people will not spend that money, they'll just be unhappy.

I and many others would rather pay a fee 30-60€ to just unlock all build/gear tempmates the once off.Paying per character is extortionate.

[Mithos.9023]

With seeing the dev stream about build templates I got an even stronger feeling that the system is problematic.

Overall I would like to hear why the system was designed the way it was shown. Why was it designed as new gear storage instead of an attribute wardrobe? Even in the stream it was mentioned that their attempt to create build templates was over shaded by the problem that fiddling with player inventory and items is extremly risky. From what I have taken, items get “destroyed” when moved in the template and recreated when removed. That sounds as if build templates were designed on a work around rather than a new system.So why not use an attribute wardrobe that would only overwrite what attributes and runes are on your current gear? We even have something like that already in the game. Changing anything in pvp won't touch your inventory, your gear or anything else. It works, yet we got a new system that creates more problems than it solves. We get something that is extremely limited not flexible enough and in addition can't unite gear, traits and skills in one solution. Even from a work perspective it seems strange, why touch player inventory when it is so extremely risky? It is as if you laid stones in your own way wile developing it.Over all I am frustrated, as I can't see that anything will be change anymore so close before release. And the moment it is released and somebody spends money on it the chance for any fundamental change is gone. We will have to live with this perfect imperfect system if we like it or not. So I can only ask one thing, don't release build template's just jet. Keep working on it, even if you have to fundamental change it. It simply is not in a state where it should be released. It has to many flaws and seems to be developed into a direction that simply did not match with player expectations. It seems to be rooted in a lack of communication, as it is developed only on the premise of filling the words “build templates” but without proper feedback on what kind of feature it should have been.

Therefore, I can only say again, don't release it yet.

For one of the most thought after feature that could have made a lot of players happy, to spark so much negativity and frustration shows that something has gone wrong fundamentally.