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Yet another condi thief thread


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@Curennos.9307 said:You don't expect to win against power builds if you don't have any CC breaks/evades/Things-You-Need-To-Beat-Power-Builds left. Dunno why it should be any different when fighting condi.

Coz with power builds u can fight back, with condi thief guess what ? nooooo (2- dodge-2-dodge....and repeat maybe a steal if u want to think ur perfect)2-3 first sec, ur health bar is almost gone :'(

And we're talking about condi thief not ALL the condi builds. ;)

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@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:You don't expect to win against power builds if you don't have any CC breaks/evades/Things-You-Need-To-Beat-Power-Builds left. Dunno why it should be any different when fighting condi.

Coz with power builds u can fight back, with condi thief guess what ? nooooo (2- dodge-2-dodge....and repeat maybe a steal if u want to think ur perfect)2-3 first sec, ur health bar is almost gone :'(

And we're talking about condi thief not
ALL
the condi builds. ;)

A fresh power build engaging you has the same CD resource advantage. You can 'fight back' against them just as much. Which is...not much, but still.

But if you'd like to keep things to thief - cool. If a fresh thief engages you and you have nothing left, you die anyway, and likely faster than a condi setup will take to murder you. because powerburst.

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@Curennos.9307 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:You don't expect to win against power builds if you don't have any CC breaks/evades/Things-You-Need-To-Beat-Power-Builds left. Dunno why it should be any different when fighting condi.

Coz with power builds u can fight back, with condi thief guess what ? nooooo (2- dodge-2-dodge....and repeat maybe a steal if u want to think ur perfect)2-3 first sec, ur health bar is almost gone :'(

And we're talking about condi thief not
ALL
the condi builds. ;)

A fresh power build engaging you has the same CD resource advantage. You can 'fight back' against them just as much. Which is...not much, but still.

But if you'd like to keep things to thief - cool. If a fresh thief engages you and you have nothing left, you die anyway, and likely faster than a condi setup will take to murder you. because powerburst.

really u miss the point there.

ok, we gonna speak just about the thief as u want.

A thief power build (sword), hit u with the 2 +3 and go back to his previous place. so u have just this 1 or 2 hits if he use the 3. (ur health bar don't move after)

A thief condi build HIT u with 2 as the power build (not the same power we agree) dodge, another dodge (maybe a 3) and 2 again..... so he hit you and left you with a ton of cond.......ohh boy i don't even want to explain after this.....make ur idea. :/

If u can't see the différence, i can't help.

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Condi thief needs to seriously be addressed.

There is good reason that there is a huge increase in them in ranked play especially in mid/high plat i'm seeing far more regularly a 4 thief game (2 on each side). In which instantly my interest in the game is lost (I still try but know it wont be a fun game).

Yes i know condi thief should beat my class if played well, its the fact that it doesn't even have to be played at all well to beat, i believe myself to be, a fairly competent player. And as someone who looks at most 1v1 situations and tries to adapt to see how i can improve my gameplay, i find it almost impossible to do this vs this spec. There is 0 telegraph to dodge, so you pretty much have to dodge blind to avoid and instant array of conditions to applied to you and if you dont, you pretty much are forced to cleanse as those condis alone can take a good chunk of hp without the thief really using anything.

The poison buffs have been overbuffed, where pretty much anything gives you poison, so you suffer from the -33% hp gain and a pretty huge amount of damage as they stack a crazy amount. The worst of this is even if you lose half of your life you can never really recover, as you almost always will have some poison on you, and the mobility of thief doesn't allow you to even kite well. Hell you cant even block as they can just use shortbow to get unblockable poison AND interrupt if you have poison on you. Madness!

1 thief in this spec is bad, 2 in one game is just laughably unfun, and i play the game mode to have fun. I dont mind losing so long as i feel i have a chance to do something. Im giving PvP a wider berth as almost every game has 1-2 of this and its just no fun to play against.

Hell if you are a condi thief and want to give some tips on how to deal with you in this state that would be nice, without the usual unhelpful comments of git gud/change class etc.

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Condi thief needs the emergency disabling treatment Chaotic Interruption got.

Just steal alone is an instant cast, instant effect, no animation attack that wollops you with 7.5k in poison damage and enough confusion stacks to cause 1k damage per skill use. And with Spider Venom on that goes up to 9.5k in poison damage. All that on what is literally the easiest skill to land in the entire game.

And that's not even counting how abusive and degenerate Sword 2>Dodge>Sword 2 is.

Condi thief if it's going to be allowed to exist needs to be reoriented aways from getting 90% of their damage on traits which apply to any weapon set, especially away from some thing like thief Sword which has too much synergy with condition hit and run tactics, and focused into specific weapon sets with specific skill shots. Lotus training boosting condition damage is fine but it shouldn't be an attack in it's own right. Staff Staff has a similar problem with Bounding Dodger.

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@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:You don't expect to win against power builds if you don't have any CC breaks/evades/Things-You-Need-To-Beat-Power-Builds left. Dunno why it should be any different when fighting condi.

Coz with power builds u can fight back, with condi thief guess what ? nooooo (2- dodge-2-dodge....and repeat maybe a steal if u want to think ur perfect)2-3 first sec, ur health bar is almost gone :'(

And we're talking about condi thief not
ALL
the condi builds. ;)

A fresh power build engaging you has the same CD resource advantage. You can 'fight back' against them just as much. Which is...not much, but still.

But if you'd like to keep things to thief - cool. If a fresh thief engages you and you have nothing left, you die anyway, and likely faster than a condi setup will take to murder you. because powerburst.

really u miss the point there.

ok, we gonna speak just about the thief as u want.

A thief power build (sword), hit u with the 2 +3 and go back to his previous place. so u have just this 1 or 2 hits if he use the 3. (ur health bar don't move after)

A thief condi build HIT u with 2 as the power build (not the same power we agree) dodge, another dodge (maybe a 3) and 2 again..... so he hit you and left you with a ton of cond.......ohh boy i don't even want to explain after this.....make ur idea. :/

If u can't see the différence, i can't help.

So what are you doing when that thief is using #2 and dodging to use impaling. You are able to dodge and block and move as well. You are not a training golem.

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@Lilyanna.9361 said:Do y'all not have a support or run FB on your teams, at all? Literally Firebrand puts this meme build to rest and they have no choice but to run the whole time.

In ranked? NO. Because it's RANKED! And if you do run a firebrand in a duo, odds are that is when the game decides to have you get double support firebrand every single game. And even if it isn't a support is almost worthless if it's teammates aren't worth supporting.

You can still play Firebrand+Necro or Rev or W/E. And you'll win the fight. But once you hit competent opponents they'll rotate around every fight involving you if you run a dedicated team fight composition like that.

I've played 112 games so far this season, 90% of it plat 2. I've maybe seen 2 support firebrand on either team in actual ranked. They're dead. Support is dead in ranked on NA. They don't exist. Support is not a good way to climb ranked.

Literally the single best way to climb ranked is to duo queue with a 1vX side noder and a damage dealer who can function as both a +1 roamer and can a team fight with their damage alone. And that is what nearly everyone who are trying does.

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@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:You don't expect to win against power builds if you don't have any CC breaks/evades/Things-You-Need-To-Beat-Power-Builds left. Dunno why it should be any different when fighting condi.

Coz with power builds u can fight back, with condi thief guess what ? nooooo (2- dodge-2-dodge....and repeat maybe a steal if u want to think ur perfect)2-3 first sec, ur health bar is almost gone :'(

And we're talking about condi thief not
ALL
the condi builds. ;)

A fresh power build engaging you has the same CD resource advantage. You can 'fight back' against them just as much. Which is...not much, but still.

But if you'd like to keep things to thief - cool. If a fresh thief engages you and you have nothing left, you die anyway, and likely faster than a condi setup will take to murder you. because powerburst.

really u miss the point there.

ok, we gonna speak just about the thief as u want.

A thief power build (sword), hit u with the 2 +3 and go back to his previous place. so u have just this 1 or 2 hits if he use the 3. (ur health bar don't move after)

A thief condi build HIT u with 2 as the power build (not the same power we agree) dodge, another dodge (maybe a 3) and 2 again..... so he hit you and left you with a ton of cond.......ohh boy i don't even want to explain after this.....make ur idea. :/

If u can't see the différence, i can't help.

Because you're such a gentleman, I gave it some testing.

Condi1 - indes golem

Power1 - indes golem

! https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/630883044085202944/unknown.png ~7500 total. Takes ~5 ticks for condi dmg to reach the same amount of dmg. Let's just call it five seconds. I used the poison, then infil + steal + dodge (one time), then retreated

Power2 - light golem

! https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/630883700426407974/unknown.png - 10.5k total. Couldn't be bothered to guestimate how many seconds it takes for condi to reach this amount of dmg.

Crossed out the few AAs I forgot to stow cancel in the power tests. Added up everything for both - including the pwr damage for condi, and the little condi dmg for the pwr tests.

So, obviously, power has better burst whereas condi comes out ahead in the long run. However, immob from Infil strike is only 1 sec long, and the condi thief has to dedicate a utility slot to a poison. Aaand if they're dodging 2-3 times, well. Yeah.

Builds used were both metabattle (for the condi thief - DrD, deadly arts, trickery) and godsofpvp.net (for the pwr build - acro, trickery, deadly arts (with dmg on steal instead of poison)

TLDR - l2p, and I'm going to bust a lung laughing if someone tries to bring up 'but stealth approach!!11!!1'

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@"Curennos.9307" said:

Because you're such a gentleman, I gave it some testing.Condi1 - indes golem

!
and
for condi test 1, indes golem. Totals around 17.5k over 16 ish secondsPower1 - indes golem!
~7500 total. Takes ~5 ticks for condi dmg to reach the same amount of dmg. Let's just call it five seconds. I used the poison, then infil + steal + dodge (one time), then retreatedPower2 - light golem!
- 10.5k total. Couldn't be bothered to guestimate how many seconds it takes for condi to reach this amount of dmg.Crossed out the few AAs I forgot to stow cancel in the power tests. Added up everything for both - including the pwr damage for condi, and the little condi dmg for the pwr tests.So, obviously, power has better burst whereas condi comes out ahead in the long run. However, immob from Infil strike is only 1 sec long, and the condi thief has to dedicate a utility slot to a poison. Aaand if they're dodging 2-3 times, well. Yeah.Builds used were both metabattle (for the condi thief - DrD, deadly arts, trickery) and godsofpvp.net (for the pwr build - acro, trickery, deadly arts (with dmg on steal instead of poison)TLDR - l2p, and I'm going to bust a lung laughing if someone tries to bring up 'but stealth approach!!11!!1'

Man, i'm not a golem, i've got feelings :DNahh, u have to test it in combat when i saw a power thief, i know i can face him, how he gonna moves, i can block dodge heal.....etc

When i saw a condi thief, i know i have a monkey jumping everywhere evading/dodging my hits and runing away till i fall with condi, a real combat have nothing to do with a golem.

Also u miss an important thing, with condi thief, u have -33 healing effectiveness (the golem can't tell you that)

Nb : in my 5th others accounts, i play condi thief now to do my daily fast.......yep i know :s

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@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:

@"Curennos.9307" said:

Because you're such a gentleman, I gave it some testing.Condi1 - indes golem

!
and
for condi test 1, indes golem. Totals around 17.5k over 16 ish secondsPower1 - indes golem!
~7500 total. Takes ~5 ticks for condi dmg to reach the same amount of dmg. Let's just call it five seconds. I used the poison, then infil + steal + dodge (one time), then retreatedPower2 - light golem!
- 10.5k total. Couldn't be bothered to guestimate how many seconds it takes for condi to reach this amount of dmg.Crossed out the few AAs I forgot to stow cancel in the power tests. Added up everything for both - including the pwr damage for condi, and the little condi dmg for the pwr tests.So, obviously, power has better burst whereas condi comes out ahead in the long run. However, immob from Infil strike is only 1 sec long, and the condi thief has to dedicate a utility slot to a poison. Aaand if they're dodging 2-3 times, well. Yeah.Builds used were both metabattle (for the condi thief - DrD, deadly arts, trickery) and godsofpvp.net (for the pwr build - acro, trickery, deadly arts (with dmg on steal instead of poison)TLDR - l2p, and I'm going to bust a lung laughing if someone tries to bring up 'but stealth approach!!11!!1'

Man, i'm not a golem, i've got feelings :DNahh, u have to test it in combat when i saw a power thief, i know i can face him, how he gonna moves, i can block dodge heal.....etc

When i saw a condi thief, i know i have a monkey jumping everywhere evading/dodging my hits and runing away till i fall with condi, a real combat have nothing to do with a golem.

Also u miss an important thing, with condi thief, u have -33 healing effectiveness (the golem can't tell you that)

Nb : in my 5th others accounts, i play condi thief now to do my daily fast.......yep i know :s

What is preventing you from blocking, dodging and healing against a condi thief? Poison doesn't completely negate healing. You even have more time to react to the damage because it is over time. What is preventing you from learning and predicting what a condi thief will do? They're far more predictable than a power thief. They even have a single skill you need to mitigate - infiltrator's strike. That's it. Dodge that and their burst is screwed.

Just pretend the condi thief is a power thief and you have to dodge their engage. xD

Edit: Really, m'dude, if you want someone to log in game and spam sword 2 at you, I will do it.

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@babazhook.6805 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:You don't expect to win against power builds if you don't have any CC breaks/evades/Things-You-Need-To-Beat-Power-Builds left. Dunno why it should be any different when fighting condi.

Coz with power builds u can fight back, with condi thief guess what ? nooooo (2- dodge-2-dodge....and repeat maybe a steal if u want to think ur perfect)2-3 first sec, ur health bar is almost gone :'(

And we're talking about condi thief not
ALL
the condi builds. ;)

A fresh power build engaging you has the same CD resource advantage. You can 'fight back' against them just as much. Which is...not much, but still.

But if you'd like to keep things to thief - cool. If a fresh thief engages you and you have nothing left, you die anyway, and likely faster than a condi setup will take to murder you. because powerburst.

really u miss the point there.

ok, we gonna speak just about the thief as u want.

A thief power build (sword), hit u with the 2 +3 and go back to his previous place. so u have just this 1 or 2 hits if he use the 3. (ur health bar don't move after)

A thief condi build HIT u with 2 as the power build (not the same power we agree) dodge, another dodge (maybe a 3) and 2 again..... so he hit you and left you with a ton of cond.......ohh boy i don't even want to explain after this.....make ur idea. :/

If u can't see the différence, i can't help.

So what are you doing when that thief is using #2 and dodging to use impaling. You are able to dodge and block and move as well. You are not a training golem.

Right? Its very funny how many players let me use sword 2, back n forth, through a wall, until they are dead.

Cover the sword 2 return spots, kite onto and off no port spots. Whatever you do, dont be a training golem ?

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@mortrialus.3062 said:Condi thief needs the emergency disabling treatment Chaotic Interruption got.

Just steal alone is an instant cast, instant effect, no animation attack that wollops you with 7.5k in poison damage and enough confusion stacks to cause 1k damage per skill use. And with Spider Venom on that goes up to 9.5k in poison damage. All that on what is literally the easiest skill to land in the entire game.

And that's not even counting how abusive and degenerate Sword 2>Dodge>Sword 2 is.

Condi thief if it's going to be allowed to exist needs to be reoriented aways from getting 90% of their damage on traits which apply to any weapon set, especially away from some thing like thief Sword which has too much synergy with condition hit and run tactics, and focused into specific weapon sets with specific skill shots. Lotus training boosting condition damage is fine but it shouldn't be an attack in it's own right. Staff Staff has a similar problem with Bounding Dodger.

Condi proc traits are not only problematic because they can apply to any skill from any weapon, but also because you cannot dodge/block/invuln them or do anything to counter them. If you avoid it, it will still be up, waiting to proc whenever you inevitably get hit by something and telegraphs do not matter. It leads to a very lazy playstyle, especially with sword 2 being such a safe move. Such a safe skill should never have a big packet of damage attached to it.

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@verskore.4312 said:condi thief is absolutely ridiculously OP right now, in 1 steal and dodge it can apply up to 6 different conditions and forces you to burn through most of your condicleanses while they just port back with sword 2 just to come back in again, i mean who at Anet thought that this didnt deserve a BIG nerf???? Hell I'd rather have CI mirage over this garbage. Makes me wonder if Anet actually wants pvp to die cus they're going in the good direction!

or switch to water attunement and pretend nothing happened, same tactic I was using with CI...

Im with the people who point out that others are clinging onto older bulds.. we wanted a meta shake up and now we have it.

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The only thing that's annoying about condo thief is the choking gas proc/ daggerstorm in choking gas. 90% of thieves are easily read so anticipating the sword 2 into steal is super easy, yeah they'll Dodge after for more condis but a condi DD spamming dodges is an easy kill. The only classes that I struggle against Condi thieves are Mesmers and necros. Most other classes have plenty of ways to pressure thieves into blowing shadow step for the stun break and removing their only stun break.

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While I agree that condi thief could be toned down, bear in mind that since scourge got gutted condi thief is the only thing that is keeping condi mes, holosmith, and rampage warrior from being totally dominant.If your not one of those three classes be careful what you wish for you because you may not like what happens if this spec gets hit too hard

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@Vaga.5174 said:Condi thief needs to seriously be addressed.

There is good reason that there is a huge increase in them in ranked play especially in mid/high plat i'm seeing far more regularly a 4 thief game (2 on each side). In which instantly my interest in the game is lost (I still try but know it wont be a fun game).

Yes i know condi thief should beat my class if played well, its the fact that it doesn't even have to be played at all well to beat, i believe myself to be, a fairly competent player. And as someone who looks at most 1v1 situations and tries to adapt to see how i can improve my gameplay, i find it almost impossible to do this vs this spec. There is 0 telegraph to dodge, so you pretty much have to dodge blind to avoid and instant array of conditions to applied to you and if you dont, you pretty much are forced to cleanse as those condis alone can take a good chunk of hp without the thief really using anything.

The poison buffs have been overbuffed, where pretty much anything gives you poison, so you suffer from the -33% hp gain and a pretty huge amount of damage as they stack a crazy amount. The worst of this is even if you lose half of your life you can never really recover, as you almost always will have some poison on you, and the mobility of thief doesn't allow you to even kite well. Hell you cant even block as they can just use shortbow to get unblockable poison AND interrupt if you have poison on you. Madness!

1 thief in this spec is bad, 2 in one game is just laughably unfun, and i play the game mode to have fun. I dont mind losing so long as i feel i have a chance to do something. Im giving PvP a wider berth as almost every game has 1-2 of this and its just no fun to play against.

Hell if you are a condi thief and want to give some tips on how to deal with you in this state that would be nice, without the usual unhelpful comments of git gud/change class etc.

I'd rather fight Condi thieves than warriors tbh. It's not less skillful than popping rampage and two shotting just about every class.

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I love how this community tries to pretend condi thief is somehow different than any otherr favored specs in this game and their cheese builds lol condi thief fits right in with fire weavers, boonbeast, burn guards, scourge condi spam (kinda fixed) spellbreakers,mirages and the super class holo's lol. Seriously what game are u guys playing that condi thief sticks out?Is it the bias game?

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@Leonidrex.5649

Holos are more of a pubstomper build in ranked than anything else. I'm not saying that they don't have several skills/traits that should be nerfed, but there are plenty of ways for every class to fight against them. On that note, you say you play several classes but which ones are you the best at/main?

Also, aren't you fairly new to the game? Why do you speak so much on balance if you are relatively inexperienced?

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@shadowpass.4236 said:@"Leonidrex.5649"

Holos are more of a pubstomper build in ranked than anything else. I'm not saying that they don't have several skills/traits that should be nerfed, but there are plenty of ways for every class to fight against them. On that note, you say you play several classes but which ones are you the best at/main?

Also, aren't you fairly new to the game? Why do you speak so much on balance if you are relatively inexperienced?

Im best at mesmer since its my main, I also do rather well on condi thief and hybrid ( i think its just broken ) and do good on warrior ( dont know what im doing war is just overpowered )you dont have to be an expert to know that mayby after months of playing mesmer i should become better and better at it right? then i first tried warrior and it was easy mode.Played this game for around half a year? but I have been playing other competitive games for 8-10 years and its not too hard to notice whats clearly overperforming or not.If you want "veterans" to speak for pvp then you will have 5 people talking max and thats it. And then there will just be bias all around that you have shown.For me personally condi thief doesnt matter much, I only play it to troll around when i dont feel like trying and wanna get quick win.and on my main condi or any other thief doesnt change much since you lose to thiefs anyways.

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