[merged] I want to keep using Arc Build Templates... :/ - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[merged] I want to keep using Arc Build Templates... :/

135678

Comments

  • The thing that looks sad is that a third party developer did a better job at templates than the development team looks to have done. But, I still don't care. I've played without either one all these years so its not going to add value to me.

  • Saniyah.1984Saniyah.1984 Member ✭✭✭

    I like it too, but the creator may not want to keep making it, So we should not bother him and make the official more acceptable too pls

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @MoonT.6845 said:

    @Lottie.5370 said:

    Who needs more than 6 gear templates for one character??

    Pretty much everybody that plays WvW

    I run 14 different builds on roaming ranger alone, each with different gear configuration.

    If you run 14 different builds, have you considered minimizing the number of builds you would actually need a template for?
    Im just hoping when people say i have 10+ or 20+ builds its not having a build that you change where only 1 small minor thing changes like a utility slot, or a single trait or two or just a single weapon.

    I get that you can have quite a few builds in pvp/wvw and raid situations but i mean 14 for a single character is a lot.

    I can once again list off some builds, taking my guardian as example.

    DH Power DPS (Raids/Fractals), which consists of Berserker gear with Scholar Runes, requires separate Build Template.
    FB condition DPS (Raids), which is a Viper/Sinister/Grieving mix with Balthazar Runes, requires separate Build Template.
    Condition Quickbrand (Raids), which is full Viper with Firebrand Runes, mostly shares build with FB condition DPS, but a separate build template as now in Arc would still be handy.
    Power Quickbrand (Fractals), which is a Scholar/Diviner mix with Scholar Runes, requires separate Build Template.
    Healbrand (Raids), which is full Harrier with Monk Runes, requires separate Build Template.
    Healbrand (Fractals), which is a Harrier/Magi mix with Monk Runes, shares build template with the Raids version for the most part.
    different versions for Virtues and Radiance for Healbrand, which wouldn't be too much trouble to select by hand without Templates, but nice to have
    Tank Healbrand (Raids), which is full Minstrel with Monk Runes, shares Build Template with Healbrand for the most part.
    Open World FB (OW), which is a Marauder/Berserker/Diviner mix with Firework Runes, with multiple other versions (ie Templates) depending on what I want to play, , requires multiple separate Build Templates.
    Zerg FB (WvW), which could share a Gear Template with Tank Healbrand, but requires a different build Template.
    Roaming FB (WvW), of those I have multiple Templates depending on what I feel like playing/trying out/to iterate on as build.
    Core Guard (PvP/WvW), a Valkyrie/Berserker Mix, requires separate Build Template.
    Sup Bunker FB (PvP), separate build Template for PvP
    Hybrid FB (PvP), seperate build Template for PvP

    That's just a glimpse of my templates for one character on what I deem most essential (generally see play every week at multiple points), with there being plenty more I could awkwardly mix and match together to consolidate Templates or which I play more rarely, but just doing one Shift+Click in arc and loading them on demand obviously is far superior.
    And still it's too many to bring into Anet's templates, even if I had the cash to spare to unlock all these slots on all my characters that I need for smooth and enjoyable playing.

    I see well i would like to ask you a few more questions if you don't mind. I'll start with just these because they're probably the most relevant that would lead to any others.

    Question 1
    For the sake of humoring me what would your alternative work around had been to carry this many builds for your character, What would you have done as a work around if arc templates would have never been allowed in the first place?

    There was no alternative. I started using Arc over 2 years ago in tandem with getting into Raiding or rather shortly after, as I noticed very quickly that the constant swapping without Arc templates just wasn't feasible or fun, especially as someone who started covering many different roles from boss to boss.

    Is suppose the "alternative" for me would have been not playing or not getting into that type of content due to getting too annoyed by that aspect of it.

    I was thinking more along the line of "alternative" being

    • carrying your extra gear sets on you and just swapping them out manually
    • making alt characters which can hold a few different alt builds each

    So its safe to say you started using arc templates at the same time you roughly started getting into raids roughly which would lead to an increase in having different builds for different wings and bosses etc.

    Question 2
    Did you know going into the use of arc templates before hand that arc templates were a temporary and not a permanent solution?

    No, I started using Arc long before official templates were announced, with the sentiment in the community being that they would likely never come.
    Unfortunately we were wrong.

    I see. Based on what a few others having saying it seems like arenanet knew they would get to it eventually after allowing the use of Arc templates which were allowed only up to the point they were ready for live release.

    ok i have just a few more.

    Question 3
    Before you got into raids (before the use of Arc templates) did you still have a lot of different builds for wvw/ fractals/ open world etc? IF so how many and how did you handle storing them and was it still a major annoyance for you?

    Question 4
    Not including continuous use of Arc Templates, what would you suggest anet do their templates to help players like you who need a higher number of builds per character?

  • TPMN.1483TPMN.1483 Member ✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    Question 3
    Before you got into raids (before the use of Arc templates) did you still have a lot of different builds for wvw/ fractals/ open world etc? IF so how many and how did you handle storing them and was it still a major annoyance for you?

    • I had to memorise them for each boss, part of a run and create GW2Skill templates specificially saved externally - it took a long time, and it was annoying if I got something wrong causing individuals to fail and wipe where we should do a clear. I have multiple videos of 'fast' dungeon running, where I had to manually swap weapons and traits between different sections. It is not only annoying to have to be skill clicking and memorise this, but frustrating to cause a group wipe. QoL features should not cause frustration.

    Question 4
    Not including continuous use of Arc Templates, what would you suggest anet do their templates to help players like you who need a higher number of builds per character?

    • It is not only builds it is also 'equipment slots', the current implementation does not link skills and equipment with legendary armor allowing swapping.

    What I suggest ANET does - is allow Arc to continue until they reword their implementation to cater for the players who need build templates the most. It is still an advantage to use the ANET system if you want to free storage slots (however many players who have played the game for a long time - do not have this problem).
    ANET needs to look at allowing the 'build' (skills, stats, sigils, weapons, armor, infusions, wardrobe selection) to be saved and allowing each component to be loaded as a complete build or as part (e.g. equipment, skills). To reiterate one prior posters who has builds, I have a Mesmer main and currently have 1-6 different build for every boss in a RAID which has minor changes depending if I am main tank, off-tank or dps/hybrid as well as a challenge mode build for that boss. The reason for doing this is so that I do not forget an essential skill, trait which could cause a group wipe and want to quickly select to a build that I know will not cause a group wipe. In addition, I have builds for fractals (a selection of variations). At last count, I have around 50 builds with equipment configured specifically for encounters that modifies legendary armor, weapons , sigils, runes and in some cases infusions.

    The current implementation that has been proposed by the developers does not need my needs at all - the arc templates which are basic and not particularly UX friendly does meet my needs.

    TLDR; ANET needs to address the needs of the community that need the functionality of build templates who are require numerous builds (and equipment templates - which are stuck at 6 slots) and rewrite the proposed solution.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Anet is a business, not a charity. If they want to monetize templates, then any mod will be going away. Better to have an inbuilt system instead of relying on third party addons I say.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Issue for you is that you wont get to keep arc templates
    Issue for anet is they have to deal with all the unhappy customers who dont like how they are making the system.

    Notice, how the second issue doesn't disappear with arc templates gone. Quite the opposite.
    First issue however does disappear if Arc remains a solution.

    First off there are a great number of people who actually will be fine with the base level slots of anet is offering or people who just didnt use arc build templates at all.
    Secondly the 2nd issue is always there you cant please everyone. Even if the allow arc there will still be people upset about something somewhere.
    I need to respond accurately to what you also just said.

    Thought experiment

    Anet caves and allows it arc templates. But updates to game make arc templates buggy as heck (Without or possibly with their knowledge) with a high chance of erasing your gear into the void. (of corse you would have no way of knowing till it happens) You wont be able to submit tickets for help or come here to talk about it as per the current understandings of using arc templates.
    You decide to submit a ticket for help anyways and some one at arena net sees your ticket responds with "We are sorry for your loss but we are unable to restore any data erased by 3rd party software and suggest you stop using that software"
    While they are saying typing this in your ticket they simply think "First issue disappeared"

    This seems fair.

    Now think about that along side the idea of anet employee who is being forced to work on these templates while reading these comments when he probably has no choice but to design them a certain way. He/She is also told they will be paid less for their work because not every person will use the systems he/she has spent hours on hours working on even if its not the best ideal system for players with 30 builds perhaps there are reasons He/she cannot control other than just money cost as to why the system is designed the way it is.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Question 4
    Not including continuous use of Arc Templates, what would you suggest anet do their templates to help players like you who need a higher number of builds per character?

    A heavy revamp of the system would be necessary before it would become useful enough.

    So:

    • An unlimited number of build template storage slots (the account wide ones, that now have a cap of 24) is required. If it can't be done with data being saved server-side, then it needs to be switched to client-side instead.

    • build template loadout tabs (the per-character ones) cap could be raised a bit, although with the previous point done it won't be as necessary.

    • gear storage loadout system needs to be revamped, and split:

    • Leave the gear storage tabs as they are, as far as storing alternate gear sets are concerned. raising the cap a bit might be nice, but see below. Make it so their only function is to hold gear that will be used by the second system.

    • That second system would be "virtual" gear template slots. It would be populated only by links to the actual gear, from both the gear storage tabs, and inventory. You would then apply those templates to a separate "active" gear pane (separate, because you may want to make manual changes to the active loadout without having that change affect the templates or gear storage). Since that "virtual gear template" system would not hold actual gear, and offer no additional storage, it could be uncapped (or have a ridiculously high cap) with no problem.

    • there should be a way to turn your gear template in a chat code that others might see it and compare to theirs. As i understand, that would be the hardest part here, due to the way items are currently stored in game. Perhaps some sort of "generic" gear could be created that would be shown in such a way - the important things that need to be shown are: stat type (berserker etc), upgrade, potentially infusion (ar, stats). In the end things like gear tier and level are unimportant - those would be only so you could easily see in game if your setup matches the build you were given, and so sites like metabattle or snowcrows could simply put a gear chatcode to be copied. I don;t consider this part to be easy to implement, but, fortunately, it is the least important element, and one that can reasonably be skipped.

    Notice, for example, how such a system would enhance the worth of a legendary gear, instead of reducing it as current system does. And it would make the gear storage tabs truly optional, but still very valuable.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Now think about that along side the idea of anet employee who is being forced to work on these templates while reading these comments when he probably has no choice but to design them a certain way. He/She is also told they will be paid less for their work because not every person will use the systems he/she has spent hours on hours working on even if its not the best ideal system for players with 30 builds perhaps there are reasons He/she cannot control other than just money cost as to why the system is designed the way it is.

    And? I am not blaming the dev. Were anet to push responsibility for their own bad design decisions on individual devs, that's their failure as a business. Not mine.

    In short: it doesn't matter if a dev was forced to make the system in an intentionally crippled way or not. All that matters is that the system is crippled and badly designed.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @TPMN.1483 said:
    QoL features should not cause frustration.

    Im going to zone in on this bit

    Most of them dont and this one wont exactly do that for most players thats why its called quality of life because it makes things better. Anet adding this feature in itself wont exactly directly be causing frustration to players who

    • have only a few different builds
    • do not use arc templates

    Which is surely a large number of people. Im not saying a fair amount of people dont use arc templates but im sure a large number dont. Even players who have alot of builds but dont use 3rd party addons will find this helpful to some degree, not frustrating even if the base number of slots does not fit all of their builds.

    Question 4
    Not including continuous use of Arc Templates, what would you suggest anet do their templates to help players like you who need a higher number of builds per character?

    • It is not only builds it is also 'equipment slots', the current implementation does not link skills and equipment with legendary armor allowing swapping.

    Are you 100% sure about this i think i read otherwise but i could be wrong

    What I suggest ANET does - is allow Arc to continue until they reword their implementation to cater for the players who need build templates the most. It is still an advantage to use the ANET system if you want to free storage slots (however many players who have played the game for a long time - do not have this problem).
    ANET needs to look at allowing the 'build' (skills, stats, sigils, weapons, armor, infusions, wardrobe selection) to be saved and allowing each component to be loaded as a complete build or as part (e.g. equipment, skills). To reiterate one prior posters who has builds, I have a Mesmer main and currently have 1-6 different build for every boss in a RAID which has minor changes depending if I am main tank, off-tank or dps/hybrid as well as a challenge mode build for that boss. The reason for doing this is so that I do not forget an essential skill, trait which could cause a group wipe and want to quickly select to a build that I know will not cause a group wipe. In addition, I have builds for fractals (a selection of variations). At last count, I have around 50 builds with equipment configured specifically for encounters that modifies legendary armor, weapons , sigils, runes and in some cases infusions.

    The current implementation that has been proposed by the developers does not need my needs at all - the arc templates which are basic and not particularly UX friendly does meet my needs.

    TLDR; ANET needs to address the needs of the community that need the functionality of build templates who are require numerous builds (and equipment templates - which are stuck at 6 slots) and rewrite the proposed solution.

    Thanks, At least you have a understandable and reasonable explanation for your specific situation in great detail.

    In the event that its technical and slots per character cannot exceed 6 what would you propose anet do? What if there is no way for them to code over 6 slots or if going beyond this number of slots per character for every person would be very costly in terms of server storage / maintenance / upgrades etc?
    Should anet just fork up the cash with no return investment?
    Should anet just abandon the work and time spent so far (who knows how many man hours) and drop it all together to just allow arc?
    What if when anet started this design they realized it simply will not work with arc which is even more of a reason why it wont be allowed?
    Should anet be forced to design around arc because thats just what people such as yourself have gotten use to even if it means scrapping other features they have planned in the future?

    The deeper i think about this the more im starting to wonder how hard of a choice anet is probably going to have to make overall.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    The game is old and its built on old tech dont confuse the possibility of technical limitation with bad design.

    both gw1 templates (older version of the same engine,remember) and arc templates show clearly that's not a case of technical limitetions, but is entirely a case of bad design.

    Weren't GW1 templates client-side? Aren't GW2 templates going to be server-side? Maybe the decision to move to server-side was one for security reasons and being server-side would be constrained by hardware/database limitations? Just speculation since we really haven't been told either way.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    The game is old and its built on old tech dont confuse the possibility of technical limitation with bad design.

    both gw1 templates (older version of the same engine,remember) and arc templates show clearly that's not a case of technical limitetions, but is entirely a case of bad design.

    Gw1 is still a very very old game and back during that time of online pc games you had 1 of 2 things happening in the game.
    Everyone was cheating or no one was. Given gw2's track record im gonna go with the idea that it was alot less likely. Not to say it probably still didnt happen.

    1: With respect for the advancements in technology and how smart some people are today I can see why they dont want to allow local templates. Its very risky in 2019 to just break open your system and let people do what they want. Give them a crumb and they'll take a whole cookie. While it's unlikely that anyone would find away to do something against the TOS aka cheat in some way or form there is no promise that this would not create a number of problems in the future.

    2: There is also the matter of what happens if your drive crashes or you need to do a clean start. You will now have to set all this back up and for people who have 30+ builds i can only imagine the annoyance of how troublesome that would be.
    Now this last example is always the case of "That wont be me" Untill it happens. That said you could just make back ups but that does not excuse the first reason

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    The game is old and its built on old tech dont confuse the possibility of technical limitation with bad design.

    both gw1 templates (older version of the same engine,remember) and arc templates show clearly that's not a case of technical limitetions, but is entirely a case of bad design.

    Weren't GW1 templates client-side? Aren't GW2 templates going to be server-side? Maybe the decision to move to server-side was one for security reasons and being server-side would be constrained by hardware/database limitations? Just speculation since we really haven't been told either way.

    Yes they were and this is what i was thinking

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    In the event that its technical and slots per character cannot exceed 6 what would you propose anet do? What if there is no way for them to code over 6 slots or if going beyond this number of slots per character for every person would be very costly in terms of server storage / maintenance / upgrades etc?

    I included the answer for that in my proposal few posts above.

    Should anet just abandon the work and time spent so far (who knows how many man hours) and drop it all together to just allow arc?

    If it cannot be improved to work properly, then yes, they should.

    What if when anet started this design they realized it simply will not work with arc which is even more of a reason why it wont be allowed?

    Considering the way arc works, that is... not very likely. Not unless they would go to great pains to make it so, and perhaps not even then.
    Arc creator might make some adjustments to make it still work, but that is all.

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Weren't GW1 templates client-side? Aren't GW2 templates going to be server-side? Maybe the decision to move to server-side was one for security reasons

    ...what security reasons?

    and being server-side would be constrained by hardware/database limitations?

    Yes, server side would have constrains. There's however no reason to have it server side. No, "security reasons" in case of build templates is not a serious consideration. They already told us this is a chatcode. One that will work when used from chat or put to chat from notepad. So, there's absolutely no reason why it couldn't be stored in plain text file clientside.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    2: There is also the matter of what happens if your drive crashes or you need to do a clean start. You will now have to set all this back up and for people who have 30+ builds i can only imagine the annoyance of how troublesome that would be.

    Backup is a thing. Backing up a few pages of chatcodes in a google doc or something is trivial. And if you don't back up things you consider important, then in that crash you probably lost far more important things and GW2 is last of your concerns.
    Besides, i am certain chatcodes of both more and less common builds will find their way to the internet very soon after the system starts. You would not need to recover all the builds by hand.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    Should anet just abandon the work and time spent so far (who knows how many man hours) and drop it all together to just allow arc?

    If it cannot be improved to work properly, then yes, they should.

    This alone is enough for me

    I will agree with you one one thing from the overall conversation arenanet has clearly made some bad decisions.
    The decision to branch out and allow arc templates to spoil people will be what really hurst them the most with this feature

    Maybe in the end they will allow arc to remain. I think im done with this topic for now though its started to get too repetitive.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Weren't GW1 templates client-side? Aren't GW2 templates going to be server-side? Maybe the decision to move to server-side was one for security reasons

    ...what security reasons?

    Well, I'm not a hacker so I don't know if code could be injected into whatever was on the client side that might be called by the game.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Weren't GW1 templates client-side? Aren't GW2 templates going to be server-side? Maybe the decision to move to server-side was one for security reasons

    ...what security reasons?

    Well, I'm not a hacker so I don't know if code could be injected into whatever was on the client side that might be called by the game.

    Like i said, from what we were told, it's a chatcode. One you can keep in a file locally and just paste into chatbox to work. So, again, why loading it from file would introduce security concerns and pasting into chat wouldn't?
    (hint: there's no practical difference)

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    The decision to branch out and allow arc templates to spoil people will be what really hurst them the most with this feature

    No. Making a bad feature and trying to heavily monetize it will.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Susy.7529Susy.7529 Member ✭✭✭

    Too bad, you won't be able to do so after October 29th, deal with it.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    2: There is also the matter of what happens if your drive crashes or you need to do a clean start. You will now have to set all this back up and for people who have 30+ builds i can only imagine the annoyance of how troublesome that would be.

    Backup is a thing. Backing up a few pages of chatcodes in a google doc or something is trivial. And if you don't back up things you consider important, then in that crash you probably lost far more important things and GW2 is last of your concerns.
    Besides, i am certain chatcodes of both more and less common builds will find their way to the internet very soon after the system starts. You would not need to recover all the builds by hand.

    I feel like you're trying to explain GW1 templates to people who've never played it and don't know that websites like PvXWikia exist.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @MoonT.6845 said:

    @Lottie.5370 said:

    Who needs more than 6 gear templates for one character??

    Pretty much everybody that plays WvW

    I run 14 different builds on roaming ranger alone, each with different gear configuration.

    If you run 14 different builds, have you considered minimizing the number of builds you would actually need a template for?
    Im just hoping when people say i have 10+ or 20+ builds its not having a build that you change where only 1 small minor thing changes like a utility slot, or a single trait or two or just a single weapon.

    I get that you can have quite a few builds in pvp/wvw and raid situations but i mean 14 for a single character is a lot.

    I can once again list off some builds, taking my guardian as example.

    DH Power DPS (Raids/Fractals), which consists of Berserker gear with Scholar Runes, requires separate Build Template.
    FB condition DPS (Raids), which is a Viper/Sinister/Grieving mix with Balthazar Runes, requires separate Build Template.
    Condition Quickbrand (Raids), which is full Viper with Firebrand Runes, mostly shares build with FB condition DPS, but a separate build template as now in Arc would still be handy.
    Power Quickbrand (Fractals), which is a Scholar/Diviner mix with Scholar Runes, requires separate Build Template.
    Healbrand (Raids), which is full Harrier with Monk Runes, requires separate Build Template.
    Healbrand (Fractals), which is a Harrier/Magi mix with Monk Runes, shares build template with the Raids version for the most part.
    different versions for Virtues and Radiance for Healbrand, which wouldn't be too much trouble to select by hand without Templates, but nice to have
    Tank Healbrand (Raids), which is full Minstrel with Monk Runes, shares Build Template with Healbrand for the most part.
    Open World FB (OW), which is a Marauder/Berserker/Diviner mix with Firework Runes, with multiple other versions (ie Templates) depending on what I want to play, , requires multiple separate Build Templates.
    Zerg FB (WvW), which could share a Gear Template with Tank Healbrand, but requires a different build Template.
    Roaming FB (WvW), of those I have multiple Templates depending on what I feel like playing/trying out/to iterate on as build.
    Core Guard (PvP/WvW), a Valkyrie/Berserker Mix, requires separate Build Template.
    Sup Bunker FB (PvP), separate build Template for PvP
    Hybrid FB (PvP), seperate build Template for PvP

    That's just a glimpse of my templates for one character on what I deem most essential (generally see play every week at multiple points), with there being plenty more I could awkwardly mix and match together to consolidate Templates or which I play more rarely, but just doing one Shift+Click in arc and loading them on demand obviously is far superior.
    And still it's too many to bring into Anet's templates, even if I had the cash to spare to unlock all these slots on all my characters that I need for smooth and enjoyable playing.

    I see well i would like to ask you a few more questions if you don't mind. I'll start with just these because they're probably the most relevant that would lead to any others.

    Question 1
    For the sake of humoring me what would your alternative work around had been to carry this many builds for your character, What would you have done as a work around if arc templates would have never been allowed in the first place?

    There was no alternative. I started using Arc over 2 years ago in tandem with getting into Raiding or rather shortly after, as I noticed very quickly that the constant swapping without Arc templates just wasn't feasible or fun, especially as someone who started covering many different roles from boss to boss.

    Is suppose the "alternative" for me would have been not playing or not getting into that type of content due to getting too annoyed by that aspect of it.

    I was thinking more along the line of "alternative" being

    • carrying your extra gear sets on you and just swapping them out manually
    • making alt characters which can hold a few different alt builds each

    So its safe to say you started using arc templates at the same time you roughly started getting into raids roughly which would lead to an increase in having different builds for different wings and bosses etc.

    Swapping all these gear sets, and by now Legendary armor sets, manually isn't an alternative, it's the problem.
    I sought out a tool like ArcDPS because of the frustrations that came with not having a template feature, which became necessary after becoming engaged in more game modes, as in starting to play especially Raids but also PvP in addition to Fractals and WvW, which meant keeping track of way too many builds eventually, and way too much swapping by hand to be fun.

    That problem obviously got worse over time with each new boss to tackle, requiring different compositions and with it builds to have at hand.

    The reason I didn't make 2-3 alts for each class was one, I was going for legendary Armor (which I now have for all frequently played characters, which ironically makes swapping by hand even worse) and two the fact that that would cost me quite a bit in character slots while still not being convenient with constant relogs, especially since my PC is ageing and loading screens quite long.

    Question 2
    Did you know going into the use of arc templates before hand that arc templates were a temporary and not a permanent solution?

    No, I started using Arc long before official templates were announced, with the sentiment in the community being that they would likely never come.
    Unfortunately we were wrong.

    I see. Based on what a few others having saying it seems like arenanet knew they would get to it eventually after allowing the use of Arc templates which were allowed > > > only up to the point they were ready for live release.
    ok i have just a few more.

    Question 3
    Before you got into raids (before the use of Arc templates) did you still have a lot of different builds for wvw/ fractals/ open world etc? IF so how many and how did you handle storing them and was it still a major annoyance for you?

    Before getting into Raids and PvP I was mostly playing Fractals as well as some WvW. For WvW I made one alt specifically for that gamemode of an already existing profession, with the rest mainly being geared and setup for Fractals. But I was also playing a lot less characters with much fewer build's at that point, as we didn't have as much and easy opportunities to gear new characters to make new builds back then.
    So generally at that point isn't wasn't a major annoyance, no.
    I wanted to have more builds and be able to hop into more different gamemodes, but before Arc I simply didn't, because the swapping around of things wasn't worth the effort, so I just mostly stuck to my niche I already had builds for, so the lack of access to many or any templates simply kept me from playing and enjoying parts of the game/multiple builds.

    Question 4
    Not including continuous use of Arc Templates, what would you suggest anet do their templates to help players like you who need a higher number of builds per character?

    Drastically increase Gear but especially Build Templates to 20+ and reasonable pricing, something like a 10-Slot pack for 400-800 Gems, and/or account wide Slot unlocks for 400 gems would go a long way.
    Basically anything that means I have to spend less than 400€+ to have still too few templates would be an improvement over what they had discussed on stream.

    That's simply both not affordable, and not enough even if it was.

    The Account Templates need to be vastly expanded over the 24 and frankly should probably be either free, or come in 20-Slots for 400-800 gems max. Unlocking them 3 at a time for 400-600 Gems each with a cap of 24 is a nightmare for Raiders/Theorycrafters or any sort of hardcore player.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trise.2865 said:
    Person caught stealing cable angry about having to pay for cable:
    "Please let me continue stealing cable instead of paying for it."

    I was going to use the same analogy ... but there are probably too many juveniles that have no idea what we would be talking about. Yes, pretty much the same thing. The best part is that the complaint isn't really that they can't get cable anymore, it's that they want it at the same rate and number of channels at the one they were stealing ... for free and all channels. It's weak stuff. There are far better arguments to be put forward for the offering ... but they pick the one that exposes them in the worst light possible. You can't make this stuff up.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @MoonT.6845 said:

    @Lottie.5370 said:

    Who needs more than 6 gear templates for one character??

    Pretty much everybody that plays WvW

    I run 14 different builds on roaming ranger alone, each with different gear configuration.

    If you run 14 different builds, have you considered minimizing the number of builds you would actually need a template for?
    Im just hoping when people say i have 10+ or 20+ builds its not having a build that you change where only 1 small minor thing changes like a utility slot, or a single trait or two or just a single weapon.

    I get that you can have quite a few builds in pvp/wvw and raid situations but i mean 14 for a single character is a lot.

    I can once again list off some builds, taking my guardian as example.

    DH Power DPS (Raids/Fractals), which consists of Berserker gear with Scholar Runes, requires separate Build Template.
    FB condition DPS (Raids), which is a Viper/Sinister/Grieving mix with Balthazar Runes, requires separate Build Template.
    Condition Quickbrand (Raids), which is full Viper with Firebrand Runes, mostly shares build with FB condition DPS, but a separate build template as now in Arc would still be handy.
    Power Quickbrand (Fractals), which is a Scholar/Diviner mix with Scholar Runes, requires separate Build Template.
    Healbrand (Raids), which is full Harrier with Monk Runes, requires separate Build Template.
    Healbrand (Fractals), which is a Harrier/Magi mix with Monk Runes, shares build template with the Raids version for the most part.
    different versions for Virtues and Radiance for Healbrand, which wouldn't be too much trouble to select by hand without Templates, but nice to have
    Tank Healbrand (Raids), which is full Minstrel with Monk Runes, shares Build Template with Healbrand for the most part.
    Open World FB (OW), which is a Marauder/Berserker/Diviner mix with Firework Runes, with multiple other versions (ie Templates) depending on what I want to play, , requires multiple separate Build Templates.
    Zerg FB (WvW), which could share a Gear Template with Tank Healbrand, but requires a different build Template.
    Roaming FB (WvW), of those I have multiple Templates depending on what I feel like playing/trying out/to iterate on as build.
    Core Guard (PvP/WvW), a Valkyrie/Berserker Mix, requires separate Build Template.
    Sup Bunker FB (PvP), separate build Template for PvP
    Hybrid FB (PvP), seperate build Template for PvP

    That's just a glimpse of my templates for one character on what I deem most essential (generally see play every week at multiple points), with there being plenty more I could awkwardly mix and match together to consolidate Templates or which I play more rarely, but just doing one Shift+Click in arc and loading them on demand obviously is far superior.
    And still it's too many to bring into Anet's templates, even if I had the cash to spare to unlock all these slots on all my characters that I need for smooth and enjoyable playing.

    I see well i would like to ask you a few more questions if you don't mind. I'll start with just these because they're probably the most relevant that would lead to any others.

    Question 1
    For the sake of humoring me what would your alternative work around had been to carry this many builds for your character, What would you have done as a work around if arc templates would have never been allowed in the first place?

    There was no alternative. I started using Arc over 2 years ago in tandem with getting into Raiding or rather shortly after, as I noticed very quickly that the constant swapping without Arc templates just wasn't feasible or fun, especially as someone who started covering many different roles from boss to boss.

    Is suppose the "alternative" for me would have been not playing or not getting into that type of content due to getting too annoyed by that aspect of it.

    I was thinking more along the line of "alternative" being

    • carrying your extra gear sets on you and just swapping them out manually
    • making alt characters which can hold a few different alt builds each

    So its safe to say you started using arc templates at the same time you roughly started getting into raids roughly which would lead to an increase in having different builds for different wings and bosses etc.

    Swapping all these gear sets, and by now Legendary armor sets, manually isn't an alternative, it's the problem.
    I sought out a tool like ArcDPS because of the frustrations that came with not having a template feature, which became necessary after becoming engaged in more game modes, as in starting to play especially Raids but also PvP in addition to Fractals and WvW, which meant keeping track of way too many builds eventually, and way too much swapping by hand to be fun.

    That problem obviously got worse over time with each new boss to tackle, requiring different compositions and with it builds to have at hand.

    The reason I didn't make 2-3 alts for each class was one, I was going for legendary Armor (which I now have for all frequently played characters, which ironically makes swapping by hand even worse) and two the fact that that would cost me quite a bit in character slots while still not being convenient with constant relogs, especially since my PC is ageing and loading screens quite long.

    Question 2
    Did you know going into the use of arc templates before hand that arc templates were a temporary and not a permanent solution?

    No, I started using Arc long before official templates were announced, with the sentiment in the community being that they would likely never come.
    Unfortunately we were wrong.

    I see. Based on what a few others having saying it seems like arenanet knew they would get to it eventually after allowing the use of Arc templates which were allowed > > > only up to the point they were ready for live release.
    ok i have just a few more.

    Question 3
    Before you got into raids (before the use of Arc templates) did you still have a lot of different builds for wvw/ fractals/ open world etc? IF so how many and how did you handle storing them and was it still a major annoyance for you?

    Before getting into Raids and PvP I was mostly playing Fractals as well as some WvW. For WvW I made one alt specifically for that gamemode of an already existing profession, with the rest mainly being geared and setup for Fractals. But I was also playing a lot less characters with much fewer build's at that point, as we didn't have as much and easy opportunities to gear new characters to make new builds back then.
    So generally at that point isn't wasn't a major annoyance, no.
    I wanted to have more builds and be able to hop into more different gamemodes, but before Arc I simply didn't, because the swapping around of things wasn't worth the effort, so I just mostly stuck to my niche I already had builds for, so the lack of access to many or any templates simply kept me from playing and enjoying parts of the game/multiple builds.

    Fair enough.

    Question 4
    Not including continuous use of Arc Templates, what would you suggest anet do their templates to help players like you who need a higher number of builds per character?

    Drastically increase Gear but especially Build Templates to 20+ and reasonable pricing, something like a 10-Slot pack for 400-800 Gems, and/or account wide Slot unlocks for 400 gems would go a long way.
    Basically anything that means I have to spend less than 400€+ to have still too few templates would be an improvement over what they had discussed on stream.

    That's simply both not affordable, and not enough even if it was.

    The Account Templates need to be vastly expanded over the 24 and frankly should probably be either free, or come in 20-Slots for 400-800 gems max. Unlocking them 3 at a time for 400-600 Gems each with a cap of 24 is a nightmare for Raiders/Theorycrafters or any sort of hardcore player.

    To be honest we need more people giving feed back like this ^ I had not even considered the idea of them being sold this way till i read your reply.

    This is the kind of thing anet needs to see and maybe perhaps they could do something about it.
    still i think 24 is alot for most people perhaps there needs to be a modifer of some sort for people who require more. I dont know really but your feed back is far better than most of what ive seen so far. I will give this a thumbs up.

    Hopefully slots per character or account wide slots 1 of the 2 can be increased without it being too expensive or breaking technical limitation of the game to keep them server side.
    Over all though the idea of selling slots as packs for gems is by far one of the best suggestions ive seen so far. Due to the lack of communication i think its easy to commonly assume that anet is going to offering them as single slot per gem purchases. Which would be very expensive for some one like you with tons of builds.

    Anets biggest flaw with the community is lack of communication. Even when they give us information they never supply a few key bits of info for one reason or another that leads to chaos.
    They could have thrown out an idea like yours and said "disclaimer none of this is finalized and the prices could change" and people would have probably been much more accepting at least when it comes to the price points.
    Communication would have also came in handy on how they settled on 6 per character and 24 account shared slots.
    If anyone has the communication to the above feel free to reply and say so in case I missed it.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Trise.2865 said:
    Person caught stealing cable angry about having to pay for cable:
    "Please let me continue stealing cable instead of paying for it."

    I was going to use the same analogy ... but there are probably too many juveniles that have no idea what we would be talking about.

    Rather, there are enough people that are mature enough to understand that this "analogy" has nothing to do with situation at hand. Nobody was "stealing cable" here. People were using a third-party, completely legal and allowed addon.

    You are right the correct analogy would be
    Neighbor allows you to use his wifi till you get your own internet service setup
    2 years later
    "What do you mean I cant use your wifi anymore? Yours was working just fine for free."
    Neighbor insist that it was only suppose to be temporary and that you are consuming his bandwidth and that you should get your own now that you are able to do so. He even goes as far to ask if you would like him to help get you started. He ask questions so he can point you at the service plan thats cost effective and one that will work for you needs.
    "But yours is already there why cant i just use yours. I should be able to just keep using yours it works for me. No bob i dont care that your kids cant play candy crush. Whats the new password?"

    No amounts of "analogies" you make can present this implementation of build templates as anything more than at best half-useful and heavily overpriced.

    How can you use a word like heavily overpriced when you dont know the prices?

    Besides, seriously, can you even make a point in this discussion without heavily misrepresenting reality?

    Reality is that on the 29th unless anet says other wise build templates are going away. So instead of complaining about it we should be providing proper feedback to get the system to changed closer to help meet people who have higher build slot requirements.
    Simply going let me use arc, your design is bad, its too pricey, especially when we dont know the prices for sure wont help anyone.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    No amounts of "analogies" you make can present this implementation of build templates as anything more than at best half-useful and heavily overpriced.

    How can you use a word like heavily overpriced when you dont know the prices?

    Well, he has been using Arc which is free, so any charged solution might be considered heavily overpriced depending on one's point of view.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Nah, i will just not use the system. This will probably lead to me playing way less than before, but seeing at what else is going on with this game, that's probably for the better.

    Same here. They won't see a single gem from me for delivering something that's much worse than the status quo. In the end, there are enough things I can spend my time on if ANet isn't interested in players like me.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    You are right the correct analogy would be
    Neighbor allows you to use his wifi till you get your own internet service setup
    2 years later
    "What do you mean I cant use your wifi anymore? Yours was working just fine for free."
    Neighbor insist that it was only suppose to be temporary and that you are consuming his bandwidth and that you should get your own now that you are able to do so. He even goes as far to ask if you would like him to help get you started. He ask questions so he can point you at the service plan thats cost effective and one that will work for you needs.
    "But yours is already there why cant i just use yours. I should be able to just keep using yours it works for me. No bob i dont care that your kids cant play candy crush. Whats the new password?"

    If that was the case, it would be completely different. But in this case, there are some interesting differences compared to your story.
    First, it's not our neighbor that is offering us a "service plan", but some other company.

    Nope your neighbor offered you free wifi untill you could get your own internet dont add words lol.

    Second, the plan we're being given is an old phone modem bandwidth at 5 times the fiberoptic cable cost.
    Third, our neighbor changed their password to wifi only after the company offering us the new service sent someone to visit him with a shotgun, explaining that it would be in his best interest to stop helping friends.

    Well you only spent 2 years leeching off him.
    Technically yes internet service providers dont like when you do this because their services are not meant to be shared like that so there is some truth that if you ask your isp is it ok to share my internet with the neighbors or (your friends) of course they will suggest you dont do it for a wide number of reasons.

    Does that sound as fine and okay now?

    If you are going to break down an analogy at least do it properly and dont leave out key words and dont insert your own. in case you didnt get it ill break it down for you.

    Neighbor allows you to use his wifi till you get your own internet service setup
    Arc templates are not a perma solution and will only be a free solution until anet make their own
    2 years later
    the amount of time arc templates have been a thing now anet is working in their own system
    "What do you mean I cant use your wifi anymore? Yours was working just fine for free."
    anets release of templates means you cant use arc anymore
    Neighbor insist that it was only suppose to be temporary and that you are consuming his bandwidth and that you should get your own now that you are able to do so. He even goes as far to ask if you would like him to help get you started. He ask questions so he can point you at the service plan thats cost effective and one that will work for you needs.
    Anet tells you ahead of time that templates are coming, at pax and now through an official news announcement, Anet also ask for feedback and questions about what you like dont like and think should be changed now or rather a week ago was the time to submit such things
    "But yours is already there why cant i just use yours. I should be able to just keep using yours it works for me. No bob i dont care that your kids cant play candy crush. Whats the new password?"
    you still arguing for arc templates in a way while not caring what anyone else says and cherry picking random statements, even going as far to say anet should just scrap the feature as a whole to allow the use of arc cause it fits you.

    Besides, seriously, can you even make a point in this discussion without heavily misrepresenting reality?

    Reality is that on the 29th unless anet says other wise build templates are going away. So instead of complaining about it we should be providing proper feedback to get the system to changed closer to help meet people who have higher build slot requirements.

    Nah, i will just not use the system. This will probably lead to me playing way less than before, but seeing at what else is going on with this game, that's probably for the better.

    Simply going let me use arc, your design is bad, its too pricey, especially when we dont know the prices for sure wont help anyone.

    Saying "let's wait and see" doesn't help either. From past experience, Anet is way less likely to make any changes after the system has been already introduced. By that point they will simply wait and wait till the complains die down. And we'll be left with the mess.

    IF you dont use anets feature and play less then thats your choice not anets, if a minority of people play less its not a big deal for anet. Even more so if that minority of people have already heavily or over invested in the game. The money is already made. ITs rough to say and hear but its the sad truth. Most companies be it game companies or any other kind of company will not mind one bit losing a few people if it pleases the majority of the people and gets the majority of people to spend more money.

    Is it right? i guess not if you want to get technical but it happens all the time.
    For every one person who stops playing because their system wont fit your needs there could be minimum 2 people who will love and adore and gladly pay for and will use the system so long as this is true your choice to play less will not make a change.

    its extremely rare for elitist to make up the majority of any game and usually if thats the case the game is dead or been dead for a long time. You dont design features with the idea that they will and should cater most to the elitist. In some rare occasions this does happen (legendary armor, legendary runes / sigils) and in some cases it simply does not. This is one of those moments where it seems like anet is currently aiming for everyone. IF you need to tell anet this is not enough for me you should construct creative feed back and give it to them instead of wasting your time arguing over arc dps and telling people they should be offended by anets choice for what they have laid out so far.

    if you need more slots argue for a higher cap and hope anet complies with your feed back
    if you think it will be too expensive make suggestions on what you think is a fair price and why or how they should be sold, suggest alternatives for unlocking slots for free with play time even if its a very slow process.
    if you want them to continue to allow the use of arc then you need to come up with a very very very very good presentation as to how and why they should do it from a business standpoint. Why they should risk the loss of income from time and work invested into what they have so far even if its not what specifically caters to your needs. There needs to be hard number crunching and strong factual evidence of players who do need a large number of templates, players who do vs dont use arc templates, players who would perfer not to have the feature added vs those who would gladly welcome it. An argument for arc needs to be voice in a certain way and you have yet to present any thing of the sort. Thats no the kind of argument you win by saying "it fits my needs"

    There is already a heavily sided poll out there in the forums that shows people who need a high number of builds slots is a minority so you will also have to go against all of this while presenting your suggestion.

    With that said this will be the only answer i reply to for you this week. Im not going all out all over again with you for a whole week. Nothing anyone says other than they should allow arc is going to be ok with you so there is no point.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    You are right the correct analogy would be
    Neighbor allows you to use his wifi till you get your own internet service setup
    2 years later
    "What do you mean I cant use your wifi anymore? Yours was working just fine for free."
    Neighbor insist that it was only suppose to be temporary and that you are consuming his bandwidth and that you should get your own now that you are able to do so. He even goes as far to ask if you would like him to help get you started. He ask questions so he can point you at the service plan thats cost effective and one that will work for you needs.
    "But yours is already there why cant i just use yours. I should be able to just keep using yours it works for me. No bob i dont care that your kids cant play candy crush. Whats the new password?"

    HM - about analogy.

    Let's say you live in a house paying a rent. You ask the owner for internet services and the answer is that he cannot offer you this. A friend is giving you internet for free.
    2 years later
    The owner tells you that your friend internet line is not allowed anymore in his house. Instead he will provide you internet from his company - now offering internet too. But, the internet connection provided is slower, with a smaler bandwith and it is not free. If the speed and band is not on your liking you can pay extra to upgrade it. But even so, at maximum capacity the circuit will be less performant than what you had for free before.

    What you say? Time to find another game house?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046: you might want to work on your analogies better, because you missed or twisted all the key points that make your "analogy" nothing like what really happened.

    It's interesting, though, how you cannot argue for your side of the discussion without such twisting and misrepresenting the story.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly, we should really be discussing the topic at hand and staying away from analogies. They really don't work to advance an argument.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Weren't GW1 templates client-side? Aren't GW2 templates going to be server-side?
    and being server-side would be constrained by hardware/database limitations?

    Yes, server side would have constrains. There's however no reason to have it server side.

    This is the year 2019. Some people play online games because it allows them to play on different machines in different places. Having templates that only save client-side and having to manually sync them between my desktop and laptop, and not having my templates available if I happen to log in at a friend's machine, would be a serious non-quality of life issue for me.

    They already told us this is a chatcode. One that will work when used from chat or put to chat from notepad. So, there's absolutely no reason why it couldn't be stored in plain text file clientside.

    You're free to store your templates in your notepad, or cloud, or wherever. I probably will have a library of "interesting but not currently in use" templates stored the same way. But this is an online game that you can play from any machine capable of running the client. The base set of frequently used templates should be saved server-side with the account info. If you don't like the server-side implementation you're free to grab your saved builds from your notepad anytime you like, and treat the server-side storage as if it didn't exist.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    You are right the correct analogy would be
    Neighbor allows you to use his wifi till you get your own internet service setup
    2 years later
    "What do you mean I cant use your wifi anymore? Yours was working just fine for free."
    Neighbor insist that it was only suppose to be temporary and that you are consuming his bandwidth and that you should get your own now that you are able to do so. He even goes as far to ask if you would like him to help get you started. He ask questions so he can point you at the service plan thats cost effective and one that will work for you needs.
    "But yours is already there why cant i just use yours. I should be able to just keep using yours it works for me. No bob i dont care that your kids cant play candy crush. Whats the new password?"

    HM - about analogy.

    Let's say you live in a house paying a rent. You ask the owner for internet services and the answer is that he cannot offer you this. A friend is giving you internet for free.
    2 years later
    The owner tells you that your friend internet line is not allowed anymore in his house. Instead he will provide you internet from his company - now offering internet too. But, the internet connection provided is slower, with a smaler bandwith and it is not free. If the speed and band is not on your liking you can pay extra to upgrade it. But even so, at maximum capacity the circuit will be less performant than what you had for free before.

    What you say? Time to find another game house?

    I say sure ill pay (if the service works for what ill use it for thats why you "Communicate and do research")
    If the service does not work for what ill need aka nets too crappy. Yes i make plans to move out asap and find a new place were I can get good service. Without hesitation.

    The difference with your example here is that you know going in to that house what you can and cannot have. Any smart spender researches before they buy. Just like you know when going into guild wars 2 if you research it what you are and are not getting.
    Anet never said that guild wars 2 was going to have templates this was request being added due to high demand. IF not having templates is that critical to you and you are a veteran player by all means you surely knew this long before arc templates were ever a thing.

    In fact i wouldn't even step foot in that house/ buy that game if the service / feature is critical require is not included. You wont buy a game if you dont like ay of its classes or how it plays. Use common sense.

    IF it were me and i was told that up front that the owner was not going to allow or offer internet services i would out right go some where else from the start.
    Im not going to hinge myself on the idea that i hope a friend would give me internet. LOL WHO is even crazy enough to make a commitment like this.
    Even more so if that friend should not be sharing that service with you via the owners restrictions. Why would he / me take that risk (which is how some people feel about 3rd party addons, even the allowed ones.)

    But for the sake of humor lets say that we make this commitment and i live in this house paying rent and leeching free internet for 2 or 3 years. (technically i did this for several years irl as most people my age have when living with their parents befor moving out.) As you said the owner comes to me with the deal stated after telling my friend that he can no longer give me free internet services

    Because you skipped the communication part in your analogy ill skip it too (even though you should have included it if we are going off of reality.)

    I have 2 options with what the owner has proposed.

    • This is a deal breaker, i cannot use your services for my needs and this service is far too critical. Leave the house and stop paying rent asap. There are plenty of other places out there that will give me what I need.
    • Pay for the service, works fine for me and my needs and Im ok with the price and speed maybe im ok with paying for the extra speed if needed (i currently do this with my own isp i dont have the lowest package they offer lol)

    I can promise you the owner wont have a hard time putting some one else in that house even more so if its a strong decent house that can provide the majority of what some one else needs. There are plenty of people who would be happy to pay for it.

    Like i told some one else if you stop playing that is your choice not anets.

    Also note you left out a fact in your analogy as well
    The owner should have said you cannot use your friends net because you are getting "your own service" for "free" but it is very limited. If you want a better service then there will be up charge even if its not as good as what your friend was offering.
    When you make analogies you cant twist the story to be so inaccurate like that. Technically anet is offering this feature for free at its base level which requires 0 upfront cost on the players part. There is only a cost if you want more than the base feature. Dont act like you are being forced to pay because you are not.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    HM - about analogy.

    Let's say you live in a house paying a rent. You ask the owner for internet services and the answer is that he cannot offer you this. A friend is giving you internet for free.
    2 years later
    The owner tells you that your friend internet line is not allowed anymore in his house. Instead he will provide you internet from his company - now offering internet too. But, the internet connection provided is slower, with a smaler bandwith and it is not free. If the speed and band is not on your liking you can pay extra to upgrade it. But even so, at maximum capacity the circuit will be less performant than what you had for free before.

    What you say? Time to find another game house?

    I say sure ill pay (if the service works for what ill use it for thats why you "Communicate and do research")
    If the service does not work for what ill need aka nets too crappy. Yes i make plans to move out asap and find a new place were I can get good service. Without hesitation.

    So, you will pay to have something you had for free. Even if the quality of the payd service is lower.
    Being so generous I imagine that If the service does not work for what ill need aka nets too crappy is only for the sake of the debate. Because even a modem 56k connection may be enough for some. Still, you agree that leaving the house is a good and comonsense follow-up. I bet ANet know this also - but you said that the owner will have no problems finding another client. Realy? You also said that in the area are plenty of houses for rent.

    Yes, when I bought this game I bought it because I liked it. I still like it now. But, during his life this QoL has been demanded by many. And Anet (the owner) stated that it has no intention to work on such a thing. A friend offered this service for free and Anet agreed. I won't debate here your statements about the reason of the friend to give it - this is not on the topic. So, we had something (from a friend) and Anet forces us to give it up in order to buy the same product. Only less performant.

    Also note you left out a fact in your analogy as well
    The owner should have said you cannot use your friends net because you are getting "your own service" for "free" but it is very limited. If you want a better service then there will be up charge even if its not as good as what your friend was offering.
    When you make analogies you cant twist the story to be so inaccurate like that. Technically anet is offering this feature for free at its base level which requires 0 upfront cost on the players part. There is only a cost if you want more than the base feature. Dont act like you are being forced to pay because you are not.

    Well, judging from what I saw and I read about this service, what ANet offers is not better. And what ArcDPS offered before is not "very limited".

    And I truly struggle to translate/understand the logic of this: "If you want a better service then there will be up charge even if its not as good as what your friend was offering". I want a better service but even after charge it still be less than what I had before (for free). What is the point of charging? But if you force the client to pay .... HM ... this remembers me of the not so legal practices of the "syndicates"

  • from what I see we will be able to switch between traits easily with it. But how about doing it exactly like arc templates ? whoa I cant imagine that

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2019

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    HM - about analogy.

    Let's say you live in a house paying a rent. You ask the owner for internet services and the answer is that he cannot offer you this. A friend is giving you internet for free.
    2 years later
    The owner tells you that your friend internet line is not allowed anymore in his house. Instead he will provide you internet from his company - now offering internet too. But, the internet connection provided is slower, with a smaler bandwith and it is not free. If the speed and band is not on your liking you can pay extra to upgrade it. But even so, at maximum capacity the circuit will be less performant than what you had for free before.

    What you say? Time to find another game house?

    I say sure ill pay (if the service works for what ill use it for thats why you "Communicate and do research")
    If the service does not work for what ill need aka nets too crappy. Yes i make plans to move out asap and find a new place were I can get good service. Without hesitation.

    So, you will pay to have something you had for free. Even if the quality of the payd service is lower.

    Once again you are getting the feature for free why do you keep skipping over this. Anet is not forcing people to pay for the build template update if they dont want to.

    Being so generous I imagine that If the service does not work for what ill need aka nets too crappy is only for the sake of the debate. Because even a modem 56k connection may be enough for some. Still, you agree that leaving the house is a good and comonsense follow-up. I bet ANet know this also - but you said that the owner will have no problems finding another client. Realy? You also said that in the area are plenty of houses for rent.

    Yeah because there are lots of people who have 0 use for the internet. There is a lady next door to me who has nothing but books, cell phone, and antena tv. The amount of time it took for the previous people to move out and her to move in was a snap of the finger.

    Yes, when I bought this game I bought it because I liked it. I still like it now. But, during his life this QoL has been demanded by many. And Anet (the owner) stated that it has no intention to work on such a thing. A friend offered this service for free and Anet agreed. I won't debate here your statements about the reason of the friend to give it - this is not on the topic. So, we had something (from a friend) and Anet forces us to give it up in order to buy the same product. Only less performant.

    First off the friend here had no choice but to offer it for free. IF he had charged money for it not only would anet have not allowed it, you wouldnt have paid for it, and that would have been a major lawsuit as it is in most other video games when people make money off services like such. Once more anet is not forcing you to buy anything the feature is coming to the game for free.

    Also note you left out a fact in your analogy as well
    The owner should have said you cannot use your friends net because you are getting "your own service" for "free" but it is very limited. If you want a better service then there will be up charge even if its not as good as what your friend was offering.
    When you make analogies you cant twist the story to be so inaccurate like that. Technically anet is offering this feature for free at its base level which requires 0 upfront cost on the players part. There is only a cost if you want more than the base feature. Dont act like you are being forced to pay because you are not.

    Well, judging from what I saw and I read about this service, what ANet offers is not better. And what ArcDPS offered before is not "very limited".

    You are cherry picking the reason i know this is because you totally mixed up my statement
    Anet is offering this feature fore free, but it has its "limits"

    And I truly struggle to translate/understand the logic of this: "If you want a better service then there will be up charge even if its not as good as what your friend was offering". I want a better service but even after charge it still be less than what I had before (for free). What is the point of charging? But if you force the client to pay .... HM ... this remembers me of the not so legal practices of the "syndicates"

    Once again no one is forcing you to pay its your option to or not to pay.
    When it comes to the better service im refering to anets template feature only obviously at a base it is free, if you want more slots you need to pay. Not sure how more clear that needs to be.

    IF you feel you are forced to pay you still have the 2nd option just dont pay lol. Deal with it. Because you skipped the whole communication part this is all you get.
    Pay or dont pay
    If you didnt leave out the communication part then you have more options.

    Just because something is free because some one is letting you get it for free does not mean you should always consider that it will always be free.
    Water is free you can get it anywere but it might not always be clean.
    If you want reliable clean water you pay for it in some way or form.
    You dont complain to the store that premium or average purified water should be free because you can get water for free from the sky.

    This is common sense.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Trise.2865 said:
    Person caught stealing cable angry about having to pay for cable:
    "Please let me continue stealing cable instead of paying for it."

    I was going to use the same analogy ... but there are probably too many juveniles that have no idea what we would be talking about.

    Rather, there are enough people that are mature enough to understand that this "analogy" has nothing to do with situation at hand. Nobody was "stealing cable" here. People were using a third-party, completely legal and allowed addon.

    No amounts of "analogies" you make can present this implementation of build templates as anything more than at best half-useful and heavily overpriced.

    Besides, seriously, can you even make a point in this discussion without heavily misrepresenting reality?

    There isn't any heavy misrepresentation of reality here. We already have SEVERAL instances of features being offered in exactly the same way this will be offered. THAT is the reality. This isn't an exception .. it's standard and therefore, should be expected, practice.

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Honestly, we should really be discussing the topic at hand and staying away from analogies. They really don't work to advance an argument.

    That's fair ... it does become a rallying point for people to pretend others are wrong. The fact is simple ... how Anet is going to offer built templates is not different than other quantity-based features, such as:

    1. Extra bank slots
    2. Extra Inventory slots
    3. Shared bags

    Probably missing a bunch of things here. So all these arguments based on "the cost of the feature will be too high" are just from people that have set completely unreasonable expectations based on their own speculation of what the cost will be. Dishonest.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Trise.2865 said:
    Person caught stealing cable angry about having to pay for cable:
    "Please let me continue stealing cable instead of paying for it."

    I was going to use the same analogy ... but there are probably too many juveniles that have no idea what we would be talking about.

    Rather, there are enough people that are mature enough to understand that this "analogy" has nothing to do with situation at hand. Nobody was "stealing cable" here. People were using a third-party, completely legal and allowed addon.

    No amounts of "analogies" you make can present this implementation of build templates as anything more than at best half-useful and heavily overpriced.

    Besides, seriously, can you even make a point in this discussion without heavily misrepresenting reality?

    Third-party addons have never been "legal" nor "allowed". They chose not to punish ARC templates, which is legally distinct, because killing it was more trouble than it was worth. Now it isn't. People used outside programs and systems to give themselves advantages in the game, as expressly forbidden in every legal documentation available, and now they can't. They'll get no sympathy for that, just like any other botter, hacker, exploiter, and otherwise cheater who gets themselves cut off. (Seriously, what part of "use at your own risk" do people not understand?)

    "This is the worst kind of discrimination! The kind against me!"
    -Bender

    This discussion has never been about ANet's implementation OR monetization, it's about their enforcement of policy. It's in the thread title. However, because those subjects are at least closer to the underlying issues (which are a LOT bigger than one game, one gaming studio, and a handful of entitled consumers), let's address them.

    On the subject of the templating systems and monetizations thereof being implemented:
    1. It's a feature. Another button to push instead of more things to do. Great. Wake me up when there's a templating minigame, or something.
    2. Microtransactions suck. It's sad that only recently are people starting to get that. Guess we should start thanking EA for being so terrible they've drawn attention to it.

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2019

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Anet is a business, not a charity. If they want to monetize templates, then any mod will be going away. Better to have an inbuilt system instead of relying on third party addons I say.

    Really? As I explained earlier in another thread, this in-built system is not going to be better by any means:

    @Ashantara.8731:

    ArcDPS:

    • Load a template. Skills, Traits and Gear will be swapped at once.
    • Gear that's been taken off lands in the exact inventory slots as the gear you swapped it for (i.e., as if you had manually double-clicked the slot and had swapped the item - simple).
    • If you want to share ascended or legendary gear across characters, simply drag it into the bank. Your saved templates remain untouched by this action.

    GW2 system:

    • Load a build template. Load a gear template separately (additional clicks).
    • Gear lands in a new storage = additional hassle to find what you are looking for (you can't sort it as tidily as items in your inventory), very time-consuming. Your items are now in different places (unused ones in your inventory, used ones in the equipment storage).
    • Requires separate equipment slots even for legendary gear if you want different stats for different builds (which takes the purpose of legendary gear ab absurdum, you could as well be using two ascended sets instead; of course, you could simply keep swapping stats manually, but you don't need templates for that, plus it's more time-consuming than using non-legendary gear).
    • If you want to share ascended or legendary gear across characters, you first need to find it in either the equipment storage or one of your character's equipment tabs or inventory, then drag it into your bank. This will unlink it from any gear templates you have created on that character, and you will need to create them all over again every single time (you can't even save that information in your shared build storage to the left, regardless of its 24-slot limit, because that's Skills and Traits only).

    Sometimes, less is more and more "elaborate" approaches end up complicating things and being much less convenient for the customer.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @Lottie.5370 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Lottie.5370 said:
    Who needs more than 6 gear templates for one character??

    Anyone playing both pve and WvW
    Pve has different gear for power, condi, heal and support (with most classes being able to have useful builds in at least 3 of those roles). WvW, besides the condi/power split, uses different gear/builds for roaming and zerging. Also, the wvw gear is in general different than for pve, because in WvW you would want at least a bit of defensive stats regardless of your roles. And all that is without getting into minmaxing for different specific environments.
    Getting capped on gear templates and still needing more is easy.

    Seems like you selectively left out the part at the end where I said it shouldn't be limited, nice one dude!

    And a general reminder: you are not limited to just 6 trait/utility builds, only to 6 gear setups, and it also functions as gear storage. I play WvW (roaming and blobbing), PvE (raids and open world) and PvP (which doesn't have gear, so won't take up a gear slot). I play multiple different classes and have several gear sets per character, however I still do not have more than 6 gear sets on more than ONE single character. It is not 6 gear templates per account, it is per character.

    My support chrono has 28 gear templates alone not includong diferent weapons. Also I jave power dps, condi dps and condi mirage builds on the same character. And that is only for raids.

  • @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @MoonT.6845 said:

    @Lottie.5370 said:

    Who needs more than 6 gear templates for one character??

    Pretty much everybody that plays WvW

    I run 14 different builds on roaming ranger alone, each with different gear configuration.

    If you run 14 different builds, have you considered minimizing the number of builds you would actually need a template for?
    Im just hoping when people say i have 10+ or 20+ builds its not having a build that you change where only 1 small minor thing changes like a utility slot, or a single trait or two or just a single weapon.

    I get that you can have quite a few builds in pvp/wvw and raid situations but i mean 14 for a single character is a lot.

    I have 31 gears templates for my raid mesmer. And those are already minimised number where swaping 1-2 piecees is done by hand

  • SexyMofo.8923SexyMofo.8923 Member ✭✭✭

    Anet is only a business with customers. Looks like the will be losing a lot of business.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Trise.2865 said:
    Third-party addons have never been "legal" nor "allowed". They chose not to punish ARC templates, which is legally distinct, because killing it was more trouble than it was worth.

    Can you explain to me, how having Anet's Game Security Lead work directly with Arc developer in order to make the addon allowed did not make the addon allowed? It's not like they just decided to close their eyes and ignore its existence. They flat out told the developer "if you'll do it this way, we're okay with it". For the last 2 years arc was 100% legit. Some people try to make it something that was "illegal" in order to make an argument, but it is simply not true. And again, like i said before - if, in order to have an argument, you need to misrepresent something that forms its core, then you might consider that you don't really have an argument at all.

    Yes and look how anet is paying for that mistake now.
    I can promise you if they ever get the option to do something like Arc again they will turn it down because it leads to situations like this.
    The argument is that people wanted build templates, Anet allowed Arc until they developed their own system, Their own system is now developed, arc will no longer be allowed. Even if it was a LEGAL allowed use the terms of it was that it was to be temporary aka something that does not last forever. The time has now expired learn to deal with it.

    If you want to voice why you think arc templates should still be allowed then do what i said in my previous post

    • Come up with a very very very very good presentation as to how and why they allow it from a business standpoint.
    • Why they should risk the loss of income from time and work invested into what they have so far even if its not what specifically caters to your needs.

    There needs to be hard number crunching and strong factual evidence of players who do need a large number of templates, players who do vs dont use arc templates, players who would prefer not to have the feature added vs those who would gladly welcome it. An argument for arc needs to be voice in a certain way. Until you or someone else voices it properly the minority will be all you have which wont lead to it being allowed or anet making changes in their system.

    There is already a heavily sided poll out there in the forums that shows people who need a high number of builds slots is a minority so you will also have to go against all of this while presenting your suggestion.

    Simply saying my chrono has 28 builds alone and arc fits my needs will not get anet to change there mind that arc should still be allowed.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @MoonT.6845 said:

    @Lottie.5370 said:

    Who needs more than 6 gear templates for one character??

    Pretty much everybody that plays WvW

    I run 14 different builds on roaming ranger alone, each with different gear configuration.

    If you run 14 different builds, have you considered minimizing the number of builds you would actually need a template for?
    Im just hoping when people say i have 10+ or 20+ builds its not having a build that you change where only 1 small minor thing changes like a utility slot, or a single trait or two or just a single weapon.

    I get that you can have quite a few builds in pvp/wvw and raid situations but i mean 14 for a single character is a lot.

    I have 31 gears templates for my raid mesmer. And those are already minimised number where swaping 1-2 piecees is done by hand

    hate to say it but you are of the minority which is clearly what anet didnt aim at with this feature.
    I suggest you do the following and start coming up with good reasons from a business standpoint as to why they should continue to allow arc templates.

    Being in the smaller % of people this wont benefit you need to show with good reason why something that basically is going to steal money after development from anet why that tool should still be allowed. While many people myself included doe not plan to buy extra slots there will be some people who without a doubt do. Think about those people just going oh i can get this for free which waste anets work and time.

    Also think about what this means for future features that players have asked for. Right now some people are sending anet a pretty misguided message.
    "Yes we want this feature"
    Anet gives feature
    "No we dont want it"

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Also think about what this means for future features that players have asked for. Right now some people are sending anet a pretty misguided message.
    "Yes we want this feature"
    Anet gives feature
    "No we dont want it"

    And at the end of the day, "some people" are a tiny minority.

    For 99% of the people these templates will either be:

    • Same as now because they wont even use them
      or

    • An improvement

    Yeh you are right pretty much.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    They could probably let people continue to use arcDPS and others would still buy extra slots. I hope they review their policy on addons soon. Trying to make players pay them for something another player does for free is a garbage business practice.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.