Unkittening the Thief

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:If I may ask, what do you believe is another "main" issue(s) that plagues the Thief? And how can those assumptions/identities/mindsets be fixed? It seems quite daunting, unfortunately.

You fix all that by removing Shortbow#5 all together without any compensation

You don't have to remove it altogether, just make it require a target.

I am not sure if that would make sense though. Why would a Thief want to port to an enemy using IA? That would result in almost terrible waste of whole lots of Ini for one blind and a port that is already on most weapons for less Ini, more dmg and utility.

lol, with 120 radius, it can only blind one target unless multiple target are on top of each other. It is already a waste of Init when used without a target.

But IA currently serves only as a movement skill that's the most crucial skill in current pvp thief builds, that's definitely not a waste to use it as its currently required to be used.

I don't agree that it's crucial. It is the skill that labeled the Thief as decapper. Without it, the Thief has to build something that is actually useful and productive.

[Alatar.7364]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:If I may ask, what do you believe is another "main" issue(s) that plagues the Thief? And how can those assumptions/identities/mindsets be fixed? It seems quite daunting, unfortunately.

You fix all that by removing Shortbow#5 all together without any compensation

You don't have to remove it altogether, just make it require a target.

I am not sure if that would make sense though. Why would a Thief want to port to an enemy using IA? That would result in almost terrible waste of whole lots of Ini for one blind and a port that is already on most weapons for less Ini, more dmg and utility.

lol, with 120 radius, it can only blind one target unless multiple target are on top of each other. It is already a waste of Init when used without a target.

But IA currently serves only as a movement skill that's the most crucial skill in current pvp thief builds, that's definitely not a waste to use it as its currently required to be used.

I don't agree that it's crucial. It is the skill that labeled the Thief as decapper. Without it, the Thief has to build something that is actually useful and productive.

Thats exactly what I suggested in this thread just few posts above these.What I meant is that it is crucial in the current build which it is, thats why the build exists.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:If I may ask, what do you believe is another "main" issue(s) that plagues the Thief? And how can those assumptions/identities/mindsets be fixed? It seems quite daunting, unfortunately.

You fix all that by removing Shortbow#5 all together without any compensation

You don't have to remove it altogether, just make it require a target.

I am not sure if that would make sense though. Why would a Thief want to port to an enemy using IA? That would result in almost terrible waste of whole lots of Ini for one blind and a port that is already on most weapons for less Ini, more dmg and utility.

lol, with 120 radius, it can only blind one target unless multiple target are on top of each other. It is already a waste of Init when used without a target.

But IA currently serves only as a movement skill that's the most crucial skill in current pvp thief builds, that's definitely not a waste to use it as its currently required to be used.

I don't agree that it's crucial. It is the skill that labeled the Thief as decapper. Without it, the Thief has to build something that is actually useful and productive.

Thats exactly what I suggested in this thread just few posts above these.What I meant is that it is crucial in the current build which it is, thats why the build exists.

I do agree with you on that, except the part I quoted since it's not necessary to remove S/B #5.

[Kageseigi.2150]

@"Ensign.2189" said:Sure, but it's not about how to make one weapon set competitive, but how to make two in combination competitive.

Short bow exists because of how initiative works. Not just because how how it enables spammy skills like IA, but because it decreases the value of a second combat set; it isn't like you get a second set of cooldowns. If you did, taking short bow would be a pretty big liability.

Is there anything along those lines that would be reasonable?

Ah, I'm not so sure if it's necessarily that the weapon sets themselves need to become more competitive. It may have to do with mechanics also. As you said, having only a single initiative pool decreases the value of a second weapon set. Adding a second initiative pool (one per weapon set) would definitely change the status quo. Or even just removing the weapon-swap cooldown, allowing more flexibility and interaction between weapon sets...For example, Infiltrator's Strike (S/D) to Cloak and Dagger (S/D) to Backstab (D/P) to Infiltrator's Return (S/D). Or Shadow Shot (D/P) to Shadow Strike (P/D) back to Shadow Shot (D/P). Or Unload (P/P) to Black Powder (P/P) to Heartseeker (D/D) to Backstab (D/D).

Even as they are now, I think the ability to change fighting styles mid-battle brings a huge advantage... but not currently enough to overcome the lack of mobility from being without the Shortbow.

As for the actual buffing/improving Thief mechanics or weapon sets strong enough to rival mobility, that's another issue. Maybe the Thief needs more health baseline? Maybe more passive defenses (I don't really like that). Maybe more counters/bypasses to enemy damage mitigation. And I'm sure there are dozens if not hundreds of different possibilities that could do so. With this thread specifically, I was just going for something simple that could be done "tomorrow," and wouldn't throw the Thief completely out of balance... same mobility, same lethality, just improved flexibility.

@"rowdy.5107" said:We noticed that if you use acro trait and gain swiftness when you dodge, in a race you will only lose to a traditional sb 5 thief from point to point in literally a fraction of a second.

I'm curious. Did you just "race" from Point A to Point B on level ground? Or were there many elevation changes involved?

Before I started using Shortbow, I would use Rune of the Traveler (25% increased movement speed) to get around. But I eventually had to start using Shortbow in order to be where I needed to be when I needed to be there.A couple of weeks ago, I was using Acrobatics with Rune of Speed (66% increased movement speed when under Swiftness), and I still had to use Shortbow to get around efficiently.

That repeatable vertical mobility that Shortbow provides is just so very useful. Especially on certain maps like Khylo.

@"Alatar.7364" said:

First, thanks for the explanation of things, especially the skill changes :-)

While it would make thief better even in today's game it is still mostly just a set-up for when other professions get de-powercrept. (I mean if they do, which they should)

Yeah, I think that's what it hinges on. While I would love for the Thief to be improved generally and thoroughly (and also relatively with the toning down of other professions), I find myself just trying to think of simple things that could be done now. I don't necessarily mean a "band-aid" fix, of course, but something simple that can be done relatively easily and quickly.

In this specific suggestion, all the Thief truly gains is combat flexibility without making it more lethal directly or handicapping it by removing its needed mobility (at least, the current need). And the change can be implemented without touching anything else or anyone else in the game. Just an isolated change.

Maybe its an oversimplification on my part. I just see an easy, simple change being more likely and timely than a more complex change.

@"Fueki.4753" said:OP wants to give Thieves even more mobility while freeing the second weapon set from Shortbow, without a downside.

I don't believe anyone is advocating or requesting more mobility for the Thief.

Unless I'm mistaken, this concept would not increase mobility at all for the Thief, it would only maintain the mobility it already has.

Well, let me clarify that. A Thief from after the change could not outrun a Thief (with Shortbow) from before the change. They will both be able to get from Point A to Point B at the exact same rate no matter the distance. There are only two differences. One, the Thief from after the change will be able to carry two combat weapon sets instead of one plus the Shortbow. And two, the Thief after the change will have more "combat mobility"... and I define that as being able to move around while fighting. Basically, a Dagger/Dagger Thief will be able to close gaps and create gaps while fighting just as a current Thief can do with the Shortbow. In other words, it's not a new ability for the Thief, only a new ability for weapons other than the Shortbow.

I'll put it this way. A Thief will neither be faster or slower with this change. The Thief's "speed" across a map remains the same. However, a Thief's ability to move while fighting (with something other than a Shortbow) is improved.

As long as there remains only a single initiative pool for both weapon sets, it shouldn't throw the Thief out of balance combat-wise.

[Swagg.9236]

I actually really like the movement meta because it's the best meta. That said, you might as well just delete the rest of the classes from the game if you give Thief carte blanche access to two weapon slots. GW2 is a super shallow game. It's so shallow, that--in much the same way that 2012-15 Mesmer was "portal bot"--Thief's primary "uniqueness factor" in PvP has always been "Shortbow 5." In a game as agonizingly slow-moving as GW2, mobility is a premium; not just as an out-of-combat feature, but perhaps even more importantly as one for active PvP encounters. If every Thief build, at any given time, with any weapon, had the chance to just Infiltrator's Arrow in and out of combat, then you would see even more cancer show up in trait and utility choices. As of now, nobody on Thief even takes stealth anymore because evading (and attacking) while stationary is just so much better (it's also the exact sort of playstyle for basically every other GW2 PvP build).

By stapling Infiltrator's Arrow to every bar, you would see Thieves outright drop all mobility options from their utility bar, and just throw on even more defense. Thieves would passively grow even more aggro and not get punished for it due a higher presence of stationary, panic/damage buttons on their utility bar since they would already have unlimited mobility baked into every on of their weapon bars. It would be almost prohibitively difficult to punish a Thief for doing something dumb because they moment that they would panic button out of a stun or bad situation, they would also just repeatedly dash or port to safety regardless of which weapon they had active. On top of all of this, good luck getting any Thief to equip shortbow again (not that that's really a huge deal, but it's just another negative because it generates more bloat).

So, if you ask me, sure, go ahead and give Thief free access to Infiltrator's Arrow on every weapon bar, but only if you give every other class a Raptor-level leap as a freebie as well. If anything, if everyone could leap crazy far on command with some mild resource investment, the game would probably be a lot more interesting regardless whether or not it was a change implemented in order to balance out an apex predator getting an undeserved buff.

!inb4 people cry about me calling Thief an "apex predator." You haven't played the game. Thief, as a class put into GW2 at launch, was the fundamental peak of PvP's goal: it moved rapidly, it could escape any fight, and it dealt extremely high amounts of damage very quickly; even teleporting through terrain to do it. If nothing else, the only reason why Thief is no longer the greatest class bar none, it's because every other class has just been given a Thief weapon kit (Guardian, Soulbeast, Revenant, Mirage) or has been given a weapon kit which counters what Thief has always done (Holo, Spellbreaker, Chrono, Weaver to some degree). If the entire game has been turned into Thieves and Thief-counters, guess what the most powerful, braindead class is?

[Amante.8109]

No amount of ideas for redesigns--even good ones--mean anything unless ANet decides they actually want to rework the Thief class and solicit our feedback. Don't see that happening anytime soon.