Ouch. Instant 7k burn ticks

[LetoII.3782]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Anput.4620 said:

Burn guard has like no coverup at all.

Seriously, did you even READ the OP's post???? Does that sound like a 1v1 situation to you?

You are either purposefully trolling, or are just really good at doing so unintentionally...

There's a few of us still devoted to not pushing bad gimmick builds onto unsuspecting noobs. Scepter/longbow DH is a terrible idea for general use WvW

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Our guild raid was bested by a burn guard build on reset.

I actually had an idea for running a burnbrand raid a while back. It seems like ultimate fun....20 burnbrands all spamming Tome1,1 and instanhealing each other lol

What was exactly buffed last patch to make it so potent now? More so then before?

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:What was exactly buffed last patch to make it so potent now? More so then before?

Nothing really. The nerf to Antitoxin is a factor, but this burn guard build was effective even before that. Since burning is the 'burstiest' of condis, you can't let it tick the way you can other condis, and that it can be so easily applied to people who are stacked together makes it pretty brutal if you don't react fast enough.

@"LetoII.3782" Actually that's why I don't see this as a gimmick build. It only wrecks you if you let it, and so, it gives players an opportunity to improve their awareness while in a zerg. "Stack up on tag" while you are sieging walls isn't the best strategy. While ranged DPS should always be looking to neutralize threats on the wall / surroundings, counter disables, etc, this gives them another boogeyperson to watch for.

[LetoII.3782]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

What was exactly buffed last patch to make it so potent now? More so then before?

Antitoxin rune nerf (and a few other ezcleanses) plus a general lack of game knowledge paired with not knowing what the red things on your boon bar do.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:What was exactly buffed last patch to make it so potent now? More so then before?

Nothing really. The nerf to Antitoxin is a factor, but this burn guard build was effective even before that. Since burning is the 'burstiest' of condis, you can't let it tick the way you can other condis, and that it can be so easily applied to people who are stacked together makes it pretty brutal if you don't react fast enough.

@"LetoII.3782" Actually that's why I don't see this as a gimmick build. It only wrecks you if you let it, and so, it gives players an opportunity to improve their awareness while in a zerg. "Stack up on tag" while you are sieging walls isn't the best strategy. While ranged DPS should always be looking to neutralize threats on the wall / surroundings, counter disables, etc, this gives them another boogeyperson to watch for.

Ah okay. Ya I just looked over the patch notes again so ya nothing really seemed to change about the build.

Ya at first a bunch of pugs went down around my tag so I’m like “iigh lemme go Rez. Big mistake. As people started going down trying to Rez more people were going down. Pretty obvious trap in hindsight.

[LetoII.3782]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:@"LetoII.3782" Actually that's why I don't see this as a gimmick build. It only wrecks you if you let it, and so, it gives players an opportunity to improve their awareness while in a zerg. "Stack up on tag" while you are sieging walls isn't the best strategy. While ranged DPS should always be looking to neutralize threats on the wall / surroundings, counter disables, etc, this gives them another boogeyperson to watch for.

Yeah, not letting the aoedps free cast is pretty basic. I call it a gimmick because it's very easy to counter but strong against the ignorant. The gimmick: a single condi stack that will kill in three seconds. Should that be a problem for anyone but maybe revenant?I've played a lot of burn guard, and many variants... It's just so very meh in anything but a situation where ANY decent DPS will perform well.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Have always wondered why Guardian is constantly slipping by unnoticed. Probably because as I'd said previously; people don't like having their power taken away from them, that's why Necro is often the target for the most complaints. Receiving power however... Might be why Guard is allowed to be so diverse with core, Dragonhunter and Firebrand, able to provide significant support, withstand a lot of punishment, deal incredible damage and frequently avoid nerfs. All specs are powerful with core and Firebrand represented in high tier PvP and various areas in WvW, Dragonhunter to a lesser extent but still not to be ignored.

I'm not suggesting Guardian and all of it's specs are "secretly" overpowered. I am however pointing out that because each of it's specs are relevant and powerful enough to compete with others without relying on gimmicks, it might be time to start dialing some things back a bit. I feel like people want to give Guardian a free pass because in groups it keeps them alive. That's entirely a matter of perspective however, I don't actually know why it isn't complained about more.

Anyway, yes I've noticed the massive Burn stacks as well. I agree that particularly in 1v1's or on a large scale with lots of cleanses the Burns aren't as much of a threat. But I don't see why they're allowed to almost instantly stack enough of them to burst your health down, seemingly just because they lack cover conditions? If ANet wants Guardians to have more condition build options, that's fine. Stacking everything on an entire condition though, probably not a great idea. Would much rather Firebrand's support gets slapped around a few times first though. I can live with meme-y Burn builds but Firebrands need to start getting the same treatment as Scourges.

Lol, what?

I think you mean FB and not guard. And you wont find much of DH in any upper level PvP. Burn guard core can do some nice ticks, but it's sustain is garbage, and 1vs1ing a core burn guard on my power core guard and I always win, most of the application are from easy to see skills or a big sword with aoe mark on the ground. The application is NOT instant, stop with the hyperbole. FB however has much more sustain than either core or DH by orders of magnitude. The burn builds even for FB are troll, its about casting on pug groups, which is where it works wonders. As they don't cleanse, nor do they dodge out of a giant spinning sword, casting up or down off of walls is a great example of this, and wall of reflection, where pugs will mindlessly cast into it applying burning to themselves.

Stay out of the spirit weapon sword cast and don't cast into wall of reflection and you just cut out 90% of their burning ticks.

Even the video someone posted shows this, all of his fights are vs people who are already in a fight and they let him free cast, or are so brain dead they wont even move out of the sentry circle because ktrain. Notice the aware people who end up killing him in the end of the videos who didn't cast into the wall, and dodged the spirit weapon, they had burning ticks of a whopping 250-600.

Now, nerf away if you want, I don't play it, I play power builds, and I don't die to the burn builds either. So I have no skin in the game, but the burn builds are a troll one trick pony

[LetoII.3782]

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:most of the application are from easy to see skills or a big sword with aoe mark on the ground. The application is NOT instant, stop with the hyperbole. FB however has much more sustain than either core or DH by orders of magnitude.

Oh, there is a build that can drop 12 burn stacks instantly, but it's not Risen Howl's build. She's seen me and a few others use it.

But otherwise agree

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:most of the application are from easy to see skills or a big sword with aoe mark on the ground. The application is NOT instant, stop with the hyperbole. FB however has much more sustain than either core or DH by orders of magnitude.

Oh, there is a build that can drop 12 burn stacks instantly, but it's not Risen Howl's build. She's seen me and a few others use it.

But otherwise agree

Video/link to build?

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Zephyra.4709" said:It's most likely

burn core guard or firebrand

equivalent for that matter. I've been for the past couple months occasionally hopping on it just to troll zergs that set up catas/rams that clunk together mindlessly. It's surprising getting a bunch of downs and 70% cata health left in one burst. Rinse and repeat. It's pretty situational; against pugs it wrecks but against organised zerg/guild groups you're basically useless.

This.

Love the build. Run Risen Howl's DH build occasionally or when in publics. Works wonders against PUG zergs and groups. Not very useful against people with brain and coordination. In huge blob fights where effects fly left and right, you can do some serious damage if the enemy blob is slow.

How to best practice against burn guard?

Go through path 2 of Caudecus Manor

up until you meet Bridgette (

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bridgette

). Her Sword of Justice attack was changed alongside the past spirit weapon change and will pretty much instant down you if you decide to not dodge it. Fight her a bit until you either get bored of dying to her or get a hang of how to dodge Sord of Justice. Now take that new found knowledge to WvW and win.

This...This is great advice +100

[LetoII.3782]

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:most of the application are from easy to see skills or a big sword with aoe mark on the ground. The application is NOT instant, stop with the hyperbole. FB however has much more sustain than either core or DH by orders of magnitude.

Oh, there is a build that can drop 12 burn stacks instantly, but it's not Risen Howl's build. She's seen me and a few others use it.

But otherwise agree

Video/link to build?

Hmm I did stick it in a few old videos. I'll go dig one up I guess. But I can describe HOW easy enough: radiance, traited torch/zealots flame. Ignite zf, start throw instantly judges intervention, zf reignites and throw again...

It's a duelling build, not so great at zergs, which is why she's seen it.

About the 3min mark, tho I don't think I dropped a double (can't tell on phone)

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

I had a good ol burn build. was fantastic back in the day

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:most of the application are from easy to see skills or a big sword with aoe mark on the ground. The application is NOT instant, stop with the hyperbole. FB however has much more sustain than either core or DH by orders of magnitude.

Oh, there is a build that can drop 12 burn stacks instantly, but it's not Risen Howl's build. She's seen me and a few others use it.

But otherwise agree

Video/link to build?

Hmm I did stick it in a few old videos. I'll go dig one up I guess. But I can describe HOW easy enough: radiance, traited torch/zealots flame. Ignite zf, start throw instantly judges intervention, zf reignites and throw again...

It's a duelling build, not so great at zergs, which is why she's seen it.

So it works once. If that, as if I see someone running torch I am going to assume burn build right off anyway.

Because after that, anyone you are dueling will slot a single cleanse and remove it or just dodge/block the JI. As it's a dead giveaway what you are doing when you ignite ZF, as JI has to be timed, so you need to pop ZF, throw zealots fire and JI in 3 seconds, as thats as long ZF is active for, so once you throw it, JI is coming fight after. Fought this build before, often times all 4 of them (zealots flame, zealots fire, JI and auto proc ZF if you crit) can all be evaded with one dodge.

Its a build that depends on the other person not knowing what you are running and catching them off guard, or them being of a low skill level.

[LetoII.3782]

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:most of the application are from easy to see skills or a big sword with aoe mark on the ground. The application is NOT instant, stop with the hyperbole. FB however has much more sustain than either core or DH by orders of magnitude.

Oh, there is a build that can drop 12 burn stacks instantly, but it's not Risen Howl's build. She's seen me and a few others use it.

But otherwise agree

Video/link to build?

Hmm I did stick it in a few old videos. I'll go dig one up I guess. But I can describe HOW easy enough: radiance, traited torch/zealots flame. Ignite zf, start throw instantly judges intervention, zf reignites and throw again...

It's a duelling build, not so great at zergs, which is why she's seen it.

So it works once. If that, as if I see someone running torch I am going to assume burn build right off anyway.

Because after that, anyone you are dueling will slot a single cleanse and remove it or just dodge/block the JI. As it's a dead giveaway what you are doing when you ignite ZF, as JI has to be timed, so you need to pop ZF, throw zealots fire and JI in 3 seconds, as thats as long ZF is active for, so once you throw it, JI is coming fight after. Fought this build before, often times all 4 of them (zealots flame, zealots fire, JI and auto proc ZF if you crit) can all be evaded with one dodge.

Its a build that depends on the other person not knowing what you are running and catching them off guard, or them being of a low skill level.

I didn't recommend the build, just exhibited it's existence. There was much less cleansing 3 years ago. I'm firmly in the "burn guard is a bad idea" camp currently.

[Shroud.2307]

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Have always wondered why Guardian is constantly slipping by unnoticed. Probably because as I'd said previously; people don't like having their power taken away from them, that's why Necro is often the target for the most complaints.

Receiving

power however... Might be why Guard is allowed to be so diverse with core, Dragonhunter and Firebrand, able to provide significant support, withstand a lot of punishment, deal incredible damage and frequently avoid nerfs. All specs are powerful with core and Firebrand represented in high tier PvP and various areas in WvW, Dragonhunter to a lesser extent but still not to be ignored.

I'm not suggesting Guardian and all of it's specs are "secretly" overpowered. I am however pointing out that because each of it's specs are relevant and powerful enough to compete with others without relying on gimmicks, it might be time to start dialing some things back a bit. I feel like people want to give Guardian a free pass because in groups it keeps them alive. That's entirely a matter of perspective however, I don't actually know why it isn't complained about more.

Anyway, yes I've noticed the massive Burn stacks as well. I agree that particularly in 1v1's or on a large scale with lots of cleanses the Burns aren't as much of a threat. But I don't see why they're allowed to almost instantly stack enough of them to burst your health down, seemingly just because they lack cover conditions? If ANet wants Guardians to have more condition build options, that's fine. Stacking everything on an entire condition though, probably not a great idea. Would much rather Firebrand's support gets slapped around a few times first though. I can live with meme-y Burn builds but Firebrands need to start getting the same treatment as Scourges.

Lol, what?

I think you mean FB and not guard. And you wont find much of DH in any upper level PvP. Burn guard core can do some nice ticks, but it's sustain is garbage, and 1vs1ing a core burn guard on my power core guard and I always win, most of the application are from easy to see skills or a big sword with aoe mark on the ground. The application is NOT instant, stop with the hyperbole. FB however has much more sustain than either core or DH by orders of magnitude. The burn builds even for FB are troll, its about casting on pug groups, which is where it works wonders. As they don't cleanse, nor do they dodge out of a giant spinning sword, casting up or down off of walls is a great example of this, and wall of reflection, where pugs will mindlessly cast into it applying burning to themselves.

Stay out of the spirit weapon sword cast and don't cast into wall of reflection and you just cut out 90% of their burning ticks.

Even the video someone posted shows this, all of his fights are vs people who are already in a fight and they let him free cast, or are so brain dead they wont even move out of the sentry circle because ktrain. Notice the aware people who end up killing him in the end of the videos who didn't cast into the wall, and dodged the spirit weapon, they had burning ticks of a whopping 250-600.

Now, nerf away if you want, I don't play it, I play power builds, and I don't die to the burn builds either. So I have no skin in the game, but the burn builds are a troll one trick pony

I'm not specifically talking about burn builds, I'm talking about the entire class being relevant regardless of spec and each of them having competitive and in some cases OP builds.

FB is the primary culprit, yes. I may not have expressed myself properly so I understand the accusation of "hyperbole." The point is that many classes have only one or two specs within their class that are capable of diverse roles. Core Guardian doesn't offer much in a zerg scenario but DH and FB are both good supports ( and please don't think I'm suggesting that DH can compete with FB, because I'm not. I'm saying with the proper build, it can provide perfectly viable support ) and each spec can compete in small scale, roaming, PvE and high tier PvP.

I did also say "I can live with meme-y burn builds." Meaning I'm not bothered by them but I do acknowledge they're not to be ignored in a standard pug zerg.

I'm not going to start a petition to have Guardian ( meaning each of it's specs, so we're on the same page ) nerfed in to oblivion but I would love to see more discussions on how to bring it more in line since they never seem to arise. It's in the same boat as Necromancer in that it can have such a massive influence on a group even as a singular player that it can be the difference between success and failure. And I think that's a testament to just how strong the class has become.

[Justine.6351]

Had some good times this weekend on burn guard. Was running it as core but dumping radiance for dh was a solid choice. That 5 second block field is sooooooo much better than field of the mists.

One issue I have is not being able to run down thieves and other zergling pests. Not my problem anymore though as I just follow the tag like a good little zergling.

[Dawdler.8521]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:most of the application are from easy to see skills or a big sword with aoe mark on the ground. The application is NOT instant, stop with the hyperbole. FB however has much more sustain than either core or DH by orders of magnitude.

Oh, there is a build that can drop 12 burn stacks instantly, but it's not Risen Howl's build. She's seen me and a few others use it.

But otherwise agree

Video/link to build?

Hmm I did stick it in a few old videos. I'll go dig one up I guess. But I can describe HOW easy enough: radiance, traited torch/zealots flame. Ignite zf, start throw instantly judges intervention, zf reignites and throw again...

It's a duelling build, not so great at zergs, which is why she's seen it.

About the 3min mark, tho I don't think I dropped a double (can't tell on phone)Yeah notice that

completely invisible assault where the targets never knew what hit them before they died

.

That was the crux of the OP, not just 7K burn ticks.

[DemonSeed.3528]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:This is what happens when your zerg cleans for you. You can't clean for yourself anymore.I read this way too many times in the wrong way and laughed

[Offair.2563]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:this likely is a bug

Wvw doesn't have bugs, just unintentional features..

[LetoII.3782]

Happy little features

[LetoII.3782]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:most of the application are from easy to see skills or a big sword with aoe mark on the ground. The application is NOT instant, stop with the hyperbole. FB however has much more sustain than either core or DH by orders of magnitude.

Oh, there is a build that can drop 12 burn stacks instantly, but it's not Risen Howl's build. She's seen me and a few others use it.

But otherwise agree

Video/link to build?

Hmm I did stick it in a few old videos. I'll go dig one up I guess. But I can describe HOW easy enough: radiance, traited torch/zealots flame. Ignite zf, start throw instantly judges intervention, zf reignites and throw again...

It's a duelling build, not so great at zergs, which is why she's seen it.

About the 3min mark, tho I don't think I dropped a double (can't tell on phone)Yeah notice that

completely invisible assault where the targets never knew what hit them before they died

.

That was the crux of the OP, not just 7K burn ticks.

Well, it is somewhat invisible.If you don't know what's up at first you'll only see a tiny little amount of damage.. If you don't catch the little red icon on your buff bar with the 12 on it. It's only a second later that 10k health evaporates.

[Dawdler.8521]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:most of the application are from easy to see skills or a big sword with aoe mark on the ground. The application is NOT instant, stop with the hyperbole. FB however has much more sustain than either core or DH by orders of magnitude.

Oh, there is a build that can drop 12 burn stacks instantly, but it's not Risen Howl's build. She's seen me and a few others use it.

But otherwise agree

Video/link to build?

Hmm I did stick it in a few old videos. I'll go dig one up I guess. But I can describe HOW easy enough: radiance, traited torch/zealots flame. Ignite zf, start throw instantly judges intervention, zf reignites and throw again...

It's a duelling build, not so great at zergs, which is why she's seen it.

About the 3min mark, tho I don't think I dropped a double (can't tell on phone)Yeah notice that

completely invisible assault where the targets never knew what hit them before they died

.

That was the crux of the OP, not just 7K burn ticks.

Well, it is somewhat invisible.If you don't know what's up at first you'll only see a tiny little amount of damage.. If you don't catch the little red icon on your buff bar with the 12 on it. It's only a second later that 10k health evaporates.But by then the guard is in melee range and quite noticeable.

Again, the OP had no idea even what class did it...

Which to me imply it wasnt a class, rather a zerg scenario and multiple attackers.

[LetoII.3782]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:most of the application are from easy to see skills or a big sword with aoe mark on the ground. The application is NOT instant, stop with the hyperbole. FB however has much more sustain than either core or DH by orders of magnitude.

Oh, there is a build that can drop 12 burn stacks instantly, but it's not Risen Howl's build. She's seen me and a few others use it.

But otherwise agree

Video/link to build?

Hmm I did stick it in a few old videos. I'll go dig one up I guess. But I can describe HOW easy enough: radiance, traited torch/zealots flame. Ignite zf, start throw instantly judges intervention, zf reignites and throw again...

It's a duelling build, not so great at zergs, which is why she's seen it.

About the 3min mark, tho I don't think I dropped a double (can't tell on phone)Yeah notice that

completely invisible assault where the targets never knew what hit them before they died

.

That was the crux of the OP, not just 7K burn ticks.

Well, it is somewhat invisible.If you don't know what's up at first you'll only see a tiny little amount of damage.. If you don't catch the little red icon on your buff bar with the 12 on it. It's only a second later that 10k health evaporates.But by then the guard is in melee range and quite noticeable.

Again, the OP had no idea even what class did it...

Which to me imply it wasnt a class, rather a zerg scenario and multiple attackers.

My bet is the OP was standing next to a derpy ranger and got a permeating wrath stack. The reflected arrows do aoe burn when they hit an ally

[Baldrick.8967]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:most of the application are from easy to see skills or a big sword with aoe mark on the ground. The application is NOT instant, stop with the hyperbole. FB however has much more sustain than either core or DH by orders of magnitude.

Oh, there is a build that can drop 12 burn stacks instantly, but it's not Risen Howl's build. She's seen me and a few others use it.

But otherwise agree

Video/link to build?

Hmm I did stick it in a few old videos. I'll go dig one up I guess. But I can describe HOW easy enough: radiance, traited torch/zealots flame. Ignite zf, start throw instantly judges intervention, zf reignites and throw again...

It's a duelling build, not so great at zergs, which is why she's seen it.

About the 3min mark, tho I don't think I dropped a double (can't tell on phone)Yeah notice that

completely invisible assault where the targets never knew what hit them before they died

.

That was the crux of the OP, not just 7K burn ticks.

Well, it is somewhat invisible.If you don't know what's up at first you'll only see a tiny little amount of damage.. If you don't catch the little red icon on your buff bar with the 12 on it. It's only a second later that 10k health evaporates.But by then the guard is in melee range and quite noticeable.

Again, the OP had no idea even what class did it...

Which to me imply it wasnt a class, rather a zerg scenario and multiple attackers.

If you read my previous, you will notice we were having an unorganised small scale outside one of the EB gates.

And as I didn't see who applied it as I was rather too busy trying to cleanse the covering conditions from the necro..thought I'd post on the forums and check. So noticing that little red icon buried in amongst the other 1002284547 red icons and other clutter on the screen wasn't all that easy...

[subversiontwo.7501]

Time to make more friends.

Nerfs to cleanses resulting in already niche-functional condition bombs becomming appearant to everyone, who would have guessed? :)

These forums are unlikely to talk about the real problematic ramifications of the changes, like how conditions are far less cross-scale balanced than power is, where more conditions will result in a harder time for smaller groups to engage larger groups with an end result of less content and more splits or entrenchment. That is in an environment that is already plagued by massive population balance issues, divisions in the playerbase and entrenchment into different subsets of content. People will not see that here since these forums have devolved into some random monkey getting hit by some random ability who goes to start yet another nerf thread. Then people cry about the balance team (with some right) but they do everything they can themselves to lead the discourse away from what actual balance is B) .