Is there a reason to play Chronomancer over anything?

[Noodle Ant.1605]

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:And relying on specific condition is a good thing since it leaves options for theory and optimalization.

I just find this point extremely hard to agree with.

When there’s a massively powerful trait that hinges heavily on the presence of a condition, and you don’t even build around it (instead forcing others to build around you), what does that say about playing chrono? That you’re more of a selfish dps hog than other dps specs? You’re sacrificing others’ dps/utility to trait for slow so that you can do more dps while you’re epically failing to trait for it yourself? What kind of counterintuitive design is this?

Was it fair that the no-slow version of chrono, who was ‘average’ and decent beforehand, was nerfed in favour of balancing an obviously unstable build whose viability is dependant on the viability of other specs?

As I mentioned in another thread, all that this reliance is doing is pigeonholing chrono into a position where it will need to rely on slow to do anything anywhere. Supporting its existence doesn’t help change the problem. OW pve, wvw, pvp... what’s a power build when it can simply be countered by condi cleanse?

Would a viable no-slow build and another build that has a only small advantage (5-7%) using slow been more acceptable than the ‘slow or trash’ scenario we have today?

Since you mentioned ‘options’, would it be acceptable to have the reliance of slow as an option in itself (for ‘theory and optimisation’, as you said), whilst having another perfectly viable, slightly weaker option that isn’t so bogged down by this slow or trash issue? Wouldn’t that theoretically ‘leave

more

options for theory and optimisation’?

No slo power chrono (with IA) or just solo chrononwith DT is still good. Not best option but close. Just DT pulls the class to first position on certain fights.

What do you mean by ‘close’? One’s way above reaper (a.k.a the spec that ppl call ‘low dps’ for some reason) whilst the other is below it.

And you look at squad as 10 times solo player. Then yes. It is selfish trait.But squad is 1 team. Its like saying that dps counting on 25 might from other source is bad design

25 might is different story. It is general utility that is applied to and is helpful for the whole group. Other boons are similar. At the very least, these conditions are already catered for in the first place.

Slow pretty much does nothing other than ignorable breakbar dmg, and is mainly applied only when DT chrono players exist (not even for +dmg% traits per condi such as on thief or engi).

And it’s also a boring free dmg% increase, because it isn’t forcing the chrono to do anything.

If your squad is only chronos then slow benefits whole squad.Yea, it is not optimal at all to run IA but it is still decent (if you count scourge decent for example)

Chrono provides some slow alone. Even without other power chronos, usualy you have decent uptime on danger time. Far from ideal but it is there.

Edit: and reaper doesnt have low dps. Problem is that it has very bad burst for power dps

Which leads back to the problem and all the comments made by others about chrono only working best when 7 of them are present.

Still, is the huge dps discrepancy between slow and no-slow really that acceptable? Or alternatively, what is your opinion on the ‘slow or trash’ issue?

No one’s also seemed to have mentioned that the spec already relies on AI which can make or break the spec depending on the situation.

The overall answer to the OP’s question from all these responses so far would still be: not in competitive gamemodes, and only compared to low tier specs in pve (because it is one) or in hardcore solo OW, unless slow is very conveniently supplied by others (applicable in raids and world bosses only). So basically - no, unless you specifically like the theme or want to be special.

In my opinion this kind of balance (at least in raids) is bad. If all classes are on same number everywhere then one is best because it has unique mechanic others dont. Then there is no reason to take the others.Take ele for example. It used to be that skills dealt more damage based on size of the hitbox. This was great because on big bosses it shined but on smaler one it wasnt as good because others were more flexible with sama damage. After change it is either top dps by alot everywhere or it is usless everywhere because it provides nothing else then damage unlike others.Because of those nieche situations like boss atack speed, boss movement, duration of phases, diferent toughness, detonate plasma and damage per boon traits, flanikng, cleave there are diferent there are more options. Take it away and there will be only 1.

Think you might have mistook me for someone else/forgot to quote some other person. My line of argument is ‘slow chrono vs no-slow chrono’, not ‘all builds should be able to do the same dmg’.

For context, I intended for the no-slow variant to be raised back to 5-10% below the slow variant which kept intact as it currently is. Would you be inclined to disagree, and if so, why?

Also dragonhunters share the same "problem". They are stronger, the more you have.They work with specific boon, retal in this case, but they cannot get 100% uptime alone. Guess who provide more retal? You guessed it, other dragonhunters.Also if you take enough of them you get up to 10k dps because of Feel my wrath stacking. Is this problem too?

DH is still different in that it’s meta build already gets 65% uptime by itself (or at the very least 40%, not including alacrity or fractal potion conversion), compared to chrono’s measly 13.33%. If the DH player really wants, they can technically sacrifice <5% dps for one utility that will grant them the remaining ~7% dps from retal. Meanwhile, chrono doesn’t have much tools to budge that low uptime without sacrificing questionable amounts of dps.

You also only theoretically need 2 DHs to reach 100% efficacy, compared to 7 chronos. Boons also stick on you, so if target switching is ever required, DH isn’t quite as destroyed. And you raised up Detonate Plasma..

‘10k dps’? Did you mean something else?

No ones (or at least I’m not) arguing about stacking chronos to obtain perma quickness uptime, just only the slow component and it’s relative rarity.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:And relying on specific condition is a good thing since it leaves options for theory and optimalization.

I just find this point extremely hard to agree with.

When there’s a massively powerful trait that hinges heavily on the presence of a condition, and you don’t even build around it (instead forcing others to build around you), what does that say about playing chrono? That you’re more of a selfish dps hog than other dps specs? You’re sacrificing others’ dps/utility to trait for slow so that you can do more dps while you’re epically failing to trait for it yourself? What kind of counterintuitive design is this?

Was it fair that the no-slow version of chrono, who was ‘average’ and decent beforehand, was nerfed in favour of balancing an obviously unstable build whose viability is dependant on the viability of other specs?

As I mentioned in another thread, all that this reliance is doing is pigeonholing chrono into a position where it will need to rely on slow to do anything anywhere. Supporting its existence doesn’t help change the problem. OW pve, wvw, pvp... what’s a power build when it can simply be countered by condi cleanse?

Would a viable no-slow build and another build that has a only small advantage (5-7%) using slow been more acceptable than the ‘slow or trash’ scenario we have today?

Since you mentioned ‘options’, would it be acceptable to have the reliance of slow as an option in itself (for ‘theory and optimisation’, as you said), whilst having another perfectly viable, slightly weaker option that isn’t so bogged down by this slow or trash issue? Wouldn’t that theoretically ‘leave

more

options for theory and optimisation’?

No slo power chrono (with IA) or just solo chrononwith DT is still good. Not best option but close. Just DT pulls the class to first position on certain fights.

What do you mean by ‘close’? One’s way above reaper (a.k.a the spec that ppl call ‘low dps’ for some reason) whilst the other is below it.

And you look at squad as 10 times solo player. Then yes. It is selfish trait.But squad is 1 team. Its like saying that dps counting on 25 might from other source is bad design

25 might is different story. It is general utility that is applied to and is helpful for the whole group. Other boons are similar. At the very least, these conditions are already catered for in the first place.

Slow pretty much does nothing other than ignorable breakbar dmg, and is mainly applied only when DT chrono players exist (not even for +dmg% traits per condi such as on thief or engi).

And it’s also a boring free dmg% increase, because it isn’t forcing the chrono to do anything.

If your squad is only chronos then slow benefits whole squad.Yea, it is not optimal at all to run IA but it is still decent (if you count scourge decent for example)

Chrono provides some slow alone. Even without other power chronos, usualy you have decent uptime on danger time. Far from ideal but it is there.

Edit: and reaper doesnt have low dps. Problem is that it has very bad burst for power dps

Which leads back to the problem and all the comments made by others about chrono only working best when 7 of them are present.

Still, is the huge dps discrepancy between slow and no-slow really that acceptable? Or alternatively, what is your opinion on the ‘slow or trash’ issue?

No one’s also seemed to have mentioned that the spec already relies on AI which can make or break the spec depending on the situation.

The overall answer to the OP’s question from all these responses so far would still be: not in competitive gamemodes, and only compared to low tier specs in pve (because it is one) or in hardcore solo OW, unless slow is very conveniently supplied by others (applicable in raids and world bosses only). So basically - no, unless you specifically like the theme or want to be special.

In my opinion this kind of balance (at least in raids) is bad. If all classes are on same number everywhere then one is best because it has unique mechanic others dont. Then there is no reason to take the others.Take ele for example. It used to be that skills dealt more damage based on size of the hitbox. This was great because on big bosses it shined but on smaler one it wasnt as good because others were more flexible with sama damage. After change it is either top dps by alot everywhere or it is usless everywhere because it provides nothing else then damage unlike others.Because of those nieche situations like boss atack speed, boss movement, duration of phases, diferent toughness, detonate plasma and damage per boon traits, flanikng, cleave there are diferent there are more options. Take it away and there will be only 1.

Think you might have mistook me for someone else/forgot to quote some other person. My line of argument is ‘slow chrono vs no-slow chrono’, not ‘all builds should be able to do the same dmg’.

For context, I intended for the no-slow variant to be raised back to 5-10%

below

the slow variant which kept intact as it currently is. Would you be inclined to disagree, and if so, why?

Also dragonhunters share the same "problem". They are stronger, the more you have.They work with specific boon, retal in this case, but they cannot get 100% uptime alone. Guess who provide more retal? You guessed it, other dragonhunters.Also if you take enough of them you get up to 10k dps because of Feel my wrath stacking. Is this problem too?

DH is still different in that it’s meta build already gets 65% uptime by itself (or

at the very least

40%, not including alacrity or fractal potion conversion), compared to chrono’s measly 13.33%. If the DH player really wants, they can technically sacrifice <5% dps for one utility that will grant them the remaining ~7% dps from retal. Meanwhile, chrono doesn’t have much tools to budge that low uptime without sacrificing questionable amounts of dps.

You also only theoretically need 2 DHs to reach 100% efficacy, compared to 7 chronos. Boons also stick on you, so if target switching is ever required, DH isn’t quite as destroyed. And you raised up Detonate Plasma..

‘10k dps’? Did you mean something else?

No ones (or at least I’m not) arguing about stacking chronos to obtain perma quickness uptime, just only the slow component and it’s relative rarity.

Yea, that was reaction to 1 post above you. Sorry.Chrono can too sacrifice utility slot for more slow but it is true that its much bigger loss. Not as much in dps but in burst which is why chrono is powerful. Slightly incresing no slow damage would be great but that doesnt mean that power chrono is bad by any means.

And I ment 10k dps. The reason is this. Standard composition is support chrono, alacrity renegade, druid, warrior, quickbrand and rest dps. If you take enough DHs, you can replace quickbrand by another DH since feel my wrath from dragonhunters will be enough to cover all quickness that quicknrand was there for. That is one of the reasons why DH is extremly strong right now. Because you can have 1 more DPS in squad.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Chrono can too sacrifice utility slot for more slow but it is true that its much bigger loss. Not as much in dps but in burst which is why chrono is powerful. Slightly incresing no slow damage would be great but that doesnt mean that power chrono is bad by any means.

Well, since my inquiry about the topic of chrono and it’s reliance on slow has come to some conclusion, I can only hope this shows that further changes to this specific aspect is still desired, rather than accepting and leaving it in its gimmicky state. While the interaction could and maybe perhaps should exist, it is currently not in an ideal state since one thing is still being indiscriminately nerfed/in an indiscriminately nerfed state for the sake of another.

And I ment 10k dps. The reason is this. Standard composition is support chrono, alacrity renegade, druid, warrior, quickbrand and rest dps. If you take enough DHs, you can replace quickbrand by another DH since feel my wrath from dragonhunters will be enough to cover all quickness that quicknrand was there for. That is one of the reasons why DH is extremly strong right now. Because you can have 1 more DPS in squad.

Careful about elaborating on DH, you’re still addressing the OP’s question as well. This just makes DH sound flat out better than chrono, maybe except when slow’s thrown in... :wink:.

I do consider stacking DH’s or chronos to remove the need of a quickness support as a well-thought decision in group composition, but until the slow issue is addressed, I wouldn’t really consider this an actual feature for personally choosing to play chrono atm.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

Is there a reason to play Chronomancer over anything?

No, other than pure stubbornness. I kept trying to stick with it cause Mirage feels dirty, but it's just so useless outside of Raids that I don't play.

So my answer was to roll Mirage to do dailys, and then basically stop playing and go to Destiny 2. I'll come back for next chapter of LS5 for about 3 hours.