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Dealing damage is not a raid mechanic


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Why does players asume that its ok to pull bad dps numbers and still be accepted into groups without any proplem? When i say bad i dont mean a bit lower numbers than some1 who has killed boss multiple times already but just simply really low amount of dps.

Same thing with training raids, players asume that they dont need to know their class or rotation because its a training. However they will make said training alot harder for others to train when they simply cant pull their own weight. I always hear that damage is low because players are new to encounter, and that makes me think.. does that really matter? Lets take gorseval for example, it has a minor dps check. Is there really any mechanics that could hold your damage back, other than not knowing your own class.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Why does players asume that its ok to pull bad dps numbers and still be accepted into groups without any proplem? When i say bad i dont mean a bit lower numbers than some1 who has killed boss multiple times already but just simply really low amount of dps.

Couldn't tell you. Have you asked them?

Same thing with training raids, players asume that they dont need to know their class or rotation because its a training. However they will make said training alot harder for others to train when they simply cant pull their own weight.

Well that's how it goes sometimes. It's just the nature of training.

I always hear that damage is low because players arw new to encounter, and that makes me think.. does that really matter?

... Y... Yes.

Lets take gorseval for example, it has a minor dps check. Is there really any mechanics that could hold your damage back, other than not knowing your own class.

Off the top of my head, three. 1) If you keep getting CC'd by his slam, that's a DPS loss which leads to 2) The more Updrafts you have to take, the less you're hitting the boss. And 3) If you step in an orb's puddle, it snowballs from there. Knowledge of mechanics trumps everything.

But these are things I'm sure you know already. This post seems to come from a place of frustration, so all I can say is just hang in there and find the group which is right for you. Be patient, mate (or form a static).

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@KidRoleplay.3615 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Why does players asume that its ok to pull bad dps numbers and still be accepted into groups without any proplem? When i say bad i dont mean a bit lower numbers than some1 who has killed boss multiple times already but just simply really low amount of dps.

Couldn't tell you. Have you asked them?

Same thing with training raids, players asume that they dont need to know their class or rotation because its a training. However they will make said training alot harder for others to train when they simply cant pull their own weight.

Well that's how it goes sometimes. It's just the nature of training.

I always hear that damage is low because players arw new to encounter, and that makes me think.. does that really matter?

... Y... Yes.

Lets take gorseval for example, it has a minor dps check. Is there really any mechanics that could hold your damage back, other than not knowing your own class.

Off the top of my head, three. 1) If you keep getting CC'd by his slam, that's a DPS loss which leads to 2) The more Updrafts you have to take, the less you're hitting the boss. And 3) If you step in an orb's puddle, it snowballs from there. Knowledge of mechanics trumps everything.

But these are things I'm sure you know already. This post seems to come from a place of frustration, so all I can say is just hang in there and find the group which is right for you. Be patient, mate (or form a static).

I have a static already, its not about that. I have just spent a bit more time in LFG groups lately, mostly trainings(25-100LI.) And it just feels weird when you see ~10k phase dps from dps player. And thats low, no matter how many slams you eat during gorseval first phase :D

edit: im not frustrated just suprised. I also think that that you dont realise how low amount of dps im talking about, like i said its a one thing to deal lower dmg than others, but there is a proplem if your damage is less than it would be with auto attacks only.. even in trainings.

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To all the questions there is 1 simple answer:People assume they are fine because what they have been doing so far has worked. Open world content requires no build, no rotations, no class undetstanding. Now add in the lack of in game data on performance (not advocating for an ingame damage meter, but it sure would be useful) and overall human lazyness and you get poor performance in more challenging content.

To most players credit though, unless one specifically decides to prepare and read up on HOW to get batter at the game, there is very little ingame incentive or handholding to teach players how to play. One of the downsides to such an open and preformance rewarding combat system (which is it's main boon and curse at the same time).

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I once had a mother in a raid training on VG having her child moaning in the background. She didn't care about it and only threw out some sentences here there trying to calm it down. It was disgusting to hear a parent behaving like this and I politely asked if it wouldn't be better to do something with her child but she refused.On the other hand she was obviously not focussing on playing neither and her performance was worse than just autoattacking. Not to mention that as an ele she was downstate every other second and got ported way too often.Being in the game since 2013 and a frequent dungeon runner it wasn't my first and not my last meeting with a very underperforming player but one i'll barely forget.People are just...people.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

But these are things I'm sure you know already. This post seems to come from a place of frustration, so all I can say is just hang in there and find the group which is right for you. Be patient, mate (or form a static).

I have a static already, its not about that. I have just spent a bit more time in LFG groups lately, mostly trainings(25-100LI.) And it just feels weird when you see ~10k phase dps from dps player. And thats low, no matter how many slams you eat during gorseval first phase :D

edit: im not frustrated just suprised. I also think that that you dont realise how low amount of dps im talking about, like i said its a one thing to deal lower dmg than others, but there is a proplem if your damage is less than it would be with auto attacks only.. even in trainings.That's completely normal in training. My initial group started this low. Even people that do fine on golem can easily go below 10k on their first raid bosses. Not knowing the mechanics (no, just watching the YT vid is not enough to really
know
them) introduces chaos. People panic, and any mechanic they have to deal with is going to disrupt the rotation. It takes many, many attempts, or a very special emotional state, to get past that. It's only when the mechanics become something players react to on instinct that things become better.

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@"Vinceman.4572" said:I once had a mother in a raid training on VG having her child moaning in the background. She didn't care about it and only threw out some sentences here there trying to calm it down. It was disgusting to hear a parent behaving like this and I politely asked if it wouldn't be better to do something with her child but she refused.On the other hand she was obviously not focussing on playing neither and her performance was worse than just autoattacking. Not to mention that as an ele she was downstate every other second and got ported way too often.Being in the game since 2013 and a frequent dungeon runner it wasn't my first and not my last meeting with a very underperforming player but one i'll barely forget.People are just...people.

Kind of reminds me of my favorite "pug experience" which involved us inviting a lady who thought it would be okey for our entire training squad to witness a big family argument in the background between her, her husband and their teenage daughter with lots of rage and melodrama. She kept talking to us and calling out things calmly while yelling back at them. I even asked if she needed a break but "No, I am good". This went on for like ten minutes with everyone present being quite unsure how to react.One of the weirdest experiences I have had on voice. And yeah, her performance was about as far from terrific as it gets. Including pretending she had any experience on Sloth or any clue about how to play Soulbeast or gearing or anything really...

Anyways, if anyone wants an indication on what they may expect out of quite a few of these raiding newbies they should just go and do the Strike Mission with a public squad. You will see people who would swear they are a DPS with major damage and good gear and all that while they actuall fall into the 1/10-of-the-DPS-of-a-hardcore-player roster ArenaNet was talking about. The game simply does not require you to get anywhere close to min-maxing any part of your build until you try to get into raiding. There they experience the harsh difference between their terribly inefficient level builds and actual META builds as well as the dfference in play between someone who has mostly only used one or two skills on Open World monsters and someone who actually reached a decent level of play.Players think you need to start raiding as soon as you hit max level like in other games. It is hard to blame them as dungeons are dead, Open World got nerfed to oblivion as far as difficulty is concerned and Fractals (at least the lower tiers) just don't seem as flashy as raids.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

But these are things I'm sure you know already. This post seems to come from a place of frustration, so all I can say is just hang in there and find the group which is right for you. Be patient, mate (or form a static).

I have a static already, its not about that. I have just spent a bit more time in LFG groups lately, mostly trainings(25-100LI.) And it just feels weird when you see ~10k phase dps from dps player. And thats low, no matter how many slams you eat during gorseval first phase :D

edit: im not frustrated just suprised. I also think that that you dont realise how low amount of dps im talking about, like i said its a one thing to deal lower dmg than others, but there is a proplem if your damage is less than it would be with auto attacks only.. even in trainings.That's completely normal in training. My initial group started this low. Even people that do fine on golem can easily go below 10k on their first raid bosses. Not knowing the mechanics (no, just watching the YT vid is not enough to really
know
them) introduces chaos. People panic, and any mechanic they have to deal with is going to disrupt the rotation. It takes many, many attempts, or a very special emotional state, to get past that. It's only when the mechanics become something players react to on instinct that things become better.

I was talking about gorseval first phase dps, dont mix total dps and phase dps here now :) and its not normal to deal less than 10k between 100%-66% sure if you go down during CC phase and no1 rez you. But when i check logs and see that dps players stayed alive the whole phase and all/most slams were blocked it isn't a normal thing anymore.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:its not normal to deal less than 10k between 100%-66%

It is normal if you have people with almost 0 raid experience and have died thousand times before getting VG down with their group just before. 25-100 LI isn't training btw. so yeah. In such groups one should expect at least 10k DPS but again everything aforementioned things can be applied here as well.

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@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:I was talking about gorseval first phase dps, dont mix total dps and phase dps here now :) and its not normal to deal less than 10k between 100%-66% sure if you go down during CC phase and no1 rez you. But when i check logs and see that dps players stayed alive the whole phase and all/most slams were blocked it isn't a normal thing anymore.For "normal" players that are just training on gorse and do not have experience with that fight it is already good if they don't go down due to retal. Notice though, that those "normal" players usually achieve that by stopping attacking completely during that phase. Or by going back to avoid standing in black area...and realizing they have only melee option available, and now they are too far from boss to use it. I have seen staff daredevils (at the time when just autoattacking alone dealt massive damage output, and for most people was a dps increase over standard rota) go below 10k due to that, for example.

It's probably very long time since you had anything to do with players that were truly new to the content, and you might have forgotten how bad might that be. Either that, or you already started with a group of more experienced and more hardcore players, and never even saw what average raiders need to get through first before they get good.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:its not normal to deal less than 10k between 100%-66%

It is normal if you have people with almost 0 raid experience and have died thousand times before getting VG down with their group just before. 25-100 LI isn't training btw. so yeah. In such groups one should expect at least 10k DPS but again everything aforementioned things can be applied here as well.

Lets be real here, even 250LI runs feels like trainings every now and then. And lack of dps is the thing that makes many fights harder. Take some1 who have never done raids but does t4s+CMs daily, you think they will underperform that much aswell coz they are new to raids?

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:I was talking about gorseval first phase dps, dont mix total dps and phase dps here now :) and its not normal to deal less than 10k between 100%-66% sure if you go down during CC phase and no1 rez you. But when i check logs and see that dps players stayed alive the whole phase and all/most slams were blocked it isn't a normal thing anymore.For "normal" players that are just training on gorse and do not have experience with that fight it is already good if they don't go down due to retal. Notice though, that those "normal" players usually achieve that by
stopping attacking completely
during that phase. Or by going back to avoid standing in black area...and realizing they have only melee option available, and now they are too far from boss to use it. I have seen staff daredevils (at the time when just autoattacking alone dealt massive damage output, and for most people was a dps increase over standard rota) go below 10k due to that, for example.

It's probably very long time since you had anything to do with players that were truly new to the content, and you might have forgotten how bad might that be. Either that, or you already started with a group of more experienced and more hardcore players, and never even saw what average raiders need to get through first before they get good.

Actually no its not. Im leading few raid guilds and one of them is a raid training guild. Our trainees are able to do good amount of dps even tho they are new, thats the main reason why i was so shocked about those low LI lfg groups. Sometimes it feels that some newer raiders haven't even checked their rotations. Ofc i dont expect a perfect rotation from trainee, but atleast i expect trainees to understand basics of their class and not use skills that are not part of their rotations etc.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:its not normal to deal less than 10k between 100%-66%

It is normal if you have people with almost 0 raid experience and have died thousand times before getting VG down with their group just before. 25-100 LI isn't training btw. so yeah. In such groups one should expect at least 10k DPS but again everything aforementioned things can be applied here as well.

Lets be real here, even 250LI runs feels like trainings every now and then. And lack of dps is the thing that makes many fights harder. Take some1 who have never done raids but does t4s+CMs daily, you think they will underperform that much aswell coz they are new to raids?

But that's due to the overall decrease in raid population. There's a massive efflux of players after the release of wing 7 (and before as well). This will be reinforced over the next months because there's no wing 8 on the horizon, neither addition for fractals (as well as no new CM) and the latest announcements of templates and MO leaving the company will add the rest to it.

Additionally you must not forget not everyone starts raiding after fractal cms, some of them don't even do T4s on a regular basis. And for T4s you don't need a dps meter or anything else. People with knowledge of the mechanics and a decent sustain level (druid, healtempest, healbrand, healscourge or healrene) will pass them without problems. Before I stopped doing fractals completely firstly I stepped down from CMs and the difference between CM groups doing T4s and usual T4 groups with player experience is just that the latter needs more time (additional 10-15 min.) to get through. Players from this category don't use dps meters and don't know that they're dealing below 10k. 5-9k is enough to have a very very very easy life in fractals.

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The tier system for pve skill goes as follows (with some outliers, but in general this will hold true for most players) off the top of my head and experience:

Low Skill/Performance1.) Open World2.) challenging story missions3.) T1-2 fractals4.) challenging world bosses which can't be overstacked (Tripple Trouble, pre nerf Tequatle, Dragon Stand sub bosses, etc.)5.) T3-4 fractals6.) PUBLIC raids on easy raid bosses7.) T4 CM fractals8.) ORGANIZED raid training on easy bosses (aka guilds, discord, semi static training group core)9.) PUBLIC raids on hard raid bosses10.) ORGANIZED raids on hard raid bosses11.) Top tier raid guildsHigh Skill/Performance

Basically if you are running in an organized guild training group or discord, you will improve your performance past T4 fractals and easy raid bosses quite fast if you are an adept player. The overall performance in public raids is terrible, even worse on trainings, always has been. It's one of the main reasons why I always encourage players to find a raid guild. Public trainings are just painful (still cudos to all commanders who give it a shot and keep trying to get people into raiding this way).

As such, having players do around 10k damage on something like Gorseval first phase (which is basically a damage golem scenario) is absolutely possible. Most of these players have probably not passed anything harder than fractal T2 or similar content if at all.

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Raids have a catch 22Most groups want people to present kill proofNew players wont have kill proof

How can a new player present kill proof if they never get to play the content.Overall unless you know some one who is going to lead and organize the raid itself you dont get to go. Every once in a while a kind stranger will offer trainings but still thats not enough.

People cant learn to get better if others wont help themEven if some one is pulling bad dps numbers there are raids were one if not several players can be slacking and the raid still be cleared with relative ease.Suggest them to practice their builds and give them resources but dont just insta kick them. Most players if they really want to learn and get better will do so very quickly if you give them a hand.

The issue is that people dont give that hand.

Thats why strikes are going to become a thing. Hopefully without generating kill proof as thats one of the biggest things that splits raid vets, average players who just want to enjoy end game, and new players looking to experience end game. ITs hard to join a raid when the squad leader wants 50+ or 80 kp and you are pretty new to raiding as a whole.

on the flip side im a pretty casual player ive had 250 kp players go down on and or cause wipes in groups making mistakes i didnt or rarely make. But they present themselves like they are gods. overall the kp system the raid community has made has a fair share of problems.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:Raids have a catch 22Most groups want people to present kill proofNew players wont have kill proof

How can a new player present kill proof if they never get to play the content.Overall unless you know some one who is going to lead and organize the raid itself you dont get to go. Every once in a while a kind stranger will offer trainings but still thats not enough.

I have yet to see a trainig raid for new players which demands kill proof.

No, Dhuum or other more difficult bosses are not new raid player material. Yet even those have trainings which often state no KP but only knowledge of the mechanics (from sources like videos or guides).

@ZDragon.3046 said:People cant learn to get better if others wont help themEven if some one is pulling bad dps numbers there are raids were one if not several players can be slacking and the raid still be cleared with relative ease.Suggest them to practice their builds and give them resources but dont just insta kick them. Most players if they really want to learn and get better will do so very quickly if you give them a hand.

The issue is that people dont give that hand.

You give that hand in trainings, not during clears.

@ZDragon.3046 said:Thats why strikes are going to become a thing. Hopefully without generating kill proof as thats one of the biggest things that splits raid vets, average players who just want to enjoy end game, and new players looking to experience end game. ITs hard to join a raid when the squad leader wants 50+ or 80 kp and you are pretty new to raiding as a whole.

and strikes will result in the same scenario as raids, just with an automated system in place which will eventually drain the skilled players out if the average performance drops to low. If it's faster to simply get 2-3 friends/guild mates/etc. to fast clear a strike for maximum reward, that's what experienced players will do if the average squad of 10 randoms has issue clearing the strike.

Net result: skilled players go in organized and as semi statics low manning the content. Random low skill players are auto paired with other low skill players. Everyone inbetween stops doing strikes.

All of that with decent strike rewards mind you, which are currently not present. That's pretty much where the current strike is headed right now, even at its very low difficulty.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Same thing with training raids, players asume that they dont need to know their class or rotation because its a training. However they will make said training alot harder for others to train when they simply cant pull their own weight. I always hear that damage is low because players are new to encounter, and that makes me think.. does that really matter? Lets take gorseval for example, it has a minor dps check. Is there really any mechanics that could hold your damage back, other than not knowing your own class.

With gorseval yes actually a lot of players dont know that some players dont know that some classes can get away with hitting him while he is pounding while some dont.Having passive retaliation some professions can actually get away with hitting him and out healing it guardians and sometimes berserkers being prime examples with their heals which will out heal the passive retaliation damage and the burst of damage from the ground.Then you have weavers who dont know that they cannot touch him at all because their skills hit way too many times per second so the retaliation instantly kills them.You can know your rotation and not think about things like this and still cause massive problems.

As a necro on gorseval i generally dont stop slapping him during the pound phase because of my high hp pool and our healers generally keep me topped off standing in his corrosive ground burst dont ever get close to killing me (it would take about 3 of them to down me) in some cases there is more to knowing your own class. Practicing your rotations on a golem and fighting a raid boss itself is not the same thing. You have to be adaptable (and not in the sense that you play alot of classes) but in the sense that you have to know what you can and cant get away with based on what you are playing.

Should you clear the orbs for the group because no one else is doing it or not?Should you dps a bit harder during the pound phase because you know you can get away with it or not?Should the commander of the raid make changes to do something out of the norm if an issue keeps happening that prevents the group from clearing.Maybe after the 33% we should just use an updraft to confirm the kill because our dps is a tiny bit low and the group has wiped 3 times at this point.The solution is not always insta kick.

Knowing your class is one thing knowing how to make the most of your class on a given situation is another.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Raids have a catch 22Most groups want people to present kill proofNew players wont have kill proof

How can a new player present kill proof if they never get to play the content.Overall unless you know some one who is going to lead and organize the raid itself you dont get to go. Every once in a while a kind stranger will offer trainings but still thats not enough.

I have yet to see a trainig raid for new players which demands kill proof.

You didnt read what i wrote properly try again.I said that groups often require kp

I never wrote training groups required kp you didnt read properly dont insert words in my mouth

No, Dhuum or other more difficult bosses are not new raid player material. Yet even those have trainings which often state no KP but only knowledge of the mechanics (from sources like videos or guides).This is obvious but regardless how can you get a not new raid player into these raids if they always require kp being new or not new does not change anything. A person can be experienced in every wing except wing 5 and and possibly still wont be able to get in because he has no kp from that wing despite his experience.As i said catch 22

@ZDragon.3046 said:People cant learn to get better if others wont help themEven if some one is pulling bad dps numbers there are raids were one if not several players can be slacking and the raid still be cleared with relative ease.Suggest them to practice their builds and give them resources but dont just insta kick them. Most players if they really want to learn and get better will do so very quickly if you give them a hand.

The issue is that people dont give that hand.

You give that hand in trainings, not during clears.

As i said catch 22 prime example right here.Trainings dont happen as often as you think. Even when they do it does not mean they are always successful either.If a person can only do trainings all the way up to 50-75kp do you know the ridiculous amount of time this would require some bosses dont even get training runs commonly.

@ZDragon.3046 said:Thats why strikes are going to become a thing. Hopefully without generating kill proof as thats one of the biggest things that splits raid vets, average players who just want to enjoy end game, and new players looking to experience end game. ITs hard to join a raid when the squad leader wants 50+ or 80 kp and you are pretty new to raiding as a whole.

and strikes will result in the same scenario as raids, just with an automated system in place which will eventually drain the skilled players out if the average performance drops to low. If it's faster to simply get 2-3 friends/guild mates/etc. to fast clear a strike for maximum reward, that's what experienced players will do if the average squad of 10 randoms has issue clearing the strike.

If anet does it properly that wont happenThe issue is that right now as easy as the current strike is a 3-5 exp man can do it with plenty of time to spare a pug of 5-7 can do it with plenty of time to spare 10 is not even a challenge. So while you are doing it with your friend there wont ever be a situation where a player is instantly kicked for something like kp.

Raids do not work like strikes there is no public join with pugs because pug groups still ask for kp.

Net result: skilled players go in organized and as semi statics low manning the content. Random low skill players are auto paired with other low skill players. Everyone inbetween stops doing strikes.

Strikes wont be as hard as raids as anet has said so i dont think pugs will have an issue clearing them.

All of that with decent strike rewards mind you, which are currently not present. That's pretty much where the current strike is headed right now, even at its very low difficulty.

The current strike was 100% meant to be low difficulty. Its meant to introduce players who possibly have never done fractals or raids to an instanced boss. They did say that difficulty will be increasing in episode 1 and 2.

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I personally consider raid trainings a success if it results in players gaining more familiarity with that raid’s mechanics along with improving their DPS rotation towards that raid. Getting a kill is simply a bonus.

I personally wouldn’t rely on raid trainings alone to obtain KP or even to get raid experience as they don’t occur often. Some Twitch streamers do offer training but it’s only advertised on their channel/discord so many who don’t follow them would know nothing about it.

If someone is looking to get into raids, the best way is to simply join a guild that is willing to train. There are many that still do that. In the meantime, just pick a power DPS and condi DPS build and practice the rotations. The more familiar you get with them, the more focus can be spent on learning a particular raid’s mechanics without sacrificing too much DPS.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Raids have a catch 22Most groups want people to present kill proofNew players wont have kill proof

How can a new player present kill proof if they never get to play the content.Overall unless you know some one who is going to lead and organize the raid itself you dont get to go. Every once in a while a kind stranger will offer trainings but still thats not enough.

I have yet to see a trainig raid for new players which demands kill proof.

You didnt read what i wrote properly try again.I said that groups often require kp

I never wrote training groups required kp you didnt read properly dont insert words in my mouth

Yes, I corrected your comment since you made a general argument which is faulty in multiple places. New players should not be joining non trainng runs to begin with. As such your complaint that groups require KP is of no consequence to new players since they shouln't be running in KP groups to begin with.

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, Dhuum or other more difficult bosses are not new raid player material. Yet even those have trainings which often state no KP but only knowledge of the mechanics (from sources like videos or guides).This is obvious but regardless how can you get a not new raid player into these raids if they always require kp being new or not new does not change anything. A person can be experienced in every wing except wing 5 and and possibly still wont be able to get in because he has no kp from that wing despite his experience.As i said catch 22

There is training runs and kill with less KP or no KP trainings for more difficult bosses. These are more seldom in PUG and LFG and more common in raid guilds and discords. Getting experience on difficult raids via LFG is a lot more diificult than it has to be. Which makes sense for content which was designed for organized groups.

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:People cant learn to get better if others wont help themEven if some one is pulling bad dps numbers there are raids were one if not several players can be slacking and the raid still be cleared with relative ease.Suggest them to practice their builds and give them resources but dont just insta kick them. Most players if they really want to learn and get better will do so very quickly if you give them a hand.

The issue is that people dont give that hand.

You give that hand in trainings, not during clears.

As i said catch 22 prime example right here.Trainings dont happen as often as you think. Even when they do it does not mean they are always successful either.If a person can only do trainings all the way up to 50-75kp do you know the ridiculous amount of time this would require some bosses dont even get training runs commonly.

Trainings are regular and daily, by the dozens and more groups. There is trainings discords with thousands of players. Yes, if you limit yourself to the ingame LFG only you will not have access to all training runs.

If people want to LFG and public all their raids, then their path will be more difficult. There is tons of guilds recruiting all the time, and most do not care about KP. On the contrary, most raid guilds would love to take in semi experienced players who already know the basics.

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Thats why strikes are going to become a thing. Hopefully without generating kill proof as thats one of the biggest things that splits raid vets, average players who just want to enjoy end game, and new players looking to experience end game. ITs hard to join a raid when the squad leader wants 50+ or 80 kp and you are pretty new to raiding as a whole.

and strikes will result in the same scenario as raids, just with an automated system in place which will eventually drain the skilled players out if the average performance drops to low. If it's faster to simply get 2-3 friends/guild mates/etc. to fast clear a strike for maximum reward, that's what experienced players will do if the average squad of 10 randoms has issue clearing the strike.

If anet does it properly that wont happenThe issue is that right now as easy as the current strike is a 3-5 exp man can do it with plenty of time to spare a pug of 5-7 can do it with plenty of time to spare 10 is not even a challenge. So while you are doing it with your friend there wont ever be a situation where a player is instantly kicked for something like kp.

Raids do not work like strikes there is no public join with pugs because pug groups still ask for kp.

No, you are associating KP with access. KP is a poor method of measuring a players experience. Experience will ALWAYS get measured with more difficult content in some way or another, or more experienced players will start running in closed groups because the risk becomes to high of taking in terrible players.

People really need to stop talking about the method of gate keeping as the reason for the gate keeping. Those 2 are not the same and never will be. There will always be some kind of gatekeeping if content is difficult enough. Worst form would be guild only runs because access to those would be completely closed to public players.

As far as your exmaples, we are currently for the first strike at:

  • it can be soloed by 1 very experienced person
  • it can get failed by 10 gimps

The saving grace is that it's so easy and does not scale, that experienced players might not care if they have to carry 4-8 bad players. Suffice to say, this would change with better rewards and higher challenge. Or put differently: at this level of difficulty rewards for strikes will no increase.

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Net result: skilled players go in organized and as semi statics low manning the content. Random low skill players are auto paired with other low skill players. Everyone inbetween stops doing strikes.

Strikes wont be as hard as raids as anet has said so i dont think pugs will have an issue clearing them.

Some PUGs have an issue now...

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:All of that with decent strike rewards mind you, which are currently not present. That's pretty much where the current strike is headed right now, even at its very low difficulty.

The current strike was 100% meant to be low difficulty. Its meant to introduce players who possibly have never done fractals or raids to an instanced boss. They did say that difficulty will be increasing in episode 1 and 2.

and we will see what happens then.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:Thats why strikes are going to become a thing. Hopefully without generating kill proof as thats one of the biggest things that splits raid vets, average players who just want to enjoy end game, and new players looking to experience end game. ITs hard to join a raid when the squad leader wants 50+ or 80 kp and you are pretty new to raiding as a whole.

Maybe we won't see KPs for strikes but it has already begun: Today someone didn't port to the shrine within 1 minute after the commander said all should port. The player was instantly kicked by him.So, in the future I expect to see more of such stuff and players that are not heavily interested in this content and/or the rewards will avoid it. You need to have a special mindset and to not be discouraged by such a__holes and a lot of the GW2 players are just not into that kind of stuff.

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Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Why does players asume that its ok to pull bad dps numbers and still be accepted into groups without any proplem? When i say bad i dont mean a bit lower numbers than some1 who has killed boss multiple times already but just simply really low amount of dps.

Same thing with training raids, players asume that they dont need to know their class or rotation because its a training. However they will make said training alot harder for others to train when they simply cant pull their own weight. I always hear that damage is low because players are new to encounter, and that makes me think.. does that really matter? Lets take gorseval for example, it has a minor dps check. Is there really any mechanics that could hold your damage back, other than not knowing your own class.

Posts like these do wonders to attract new players to raids.

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@Sobx.1758 said:Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D

Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Why does players asume that its ok to pull bad dps numbers and still be accepted into groups without any proplem? When i say bad i dont mean a bit lower numbers than some1 who has killed boss multiple times already but just simply really low amount of dps.

Same thing with training raids, players asume that they dont need to know their class or rotation because its a training. However they will make said training alot harder for others to train when they simply cant pull their own weight. I always hear that damage is low because players are new to encounter, and that makes me think.. does that really matter? Lets take gorseval for example, it has a minor dps check. Is there really any mechanics that could hold your damage back, other than not knowing your own class.

Posts like these do wonders to attract new players to raids.

Meh, raids are not a place to learn what gear you should use or what skills you should use and what skills not to use?‍♀️

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