Thoughts/Hopes/Ideas about Engineer's rework on Pistols, Turrets and Kits

[hugo.4705]

@"Zex Anthon.8673" said:Kits should be a profession mechanic on the f-bar. Not taking up a utility slot.

actually agree with some kits such as elixir gun, mines and scrap kit. Others can stay as utilities. For those 3 removed in utilities, add new skills like glyphs or some new turrets.-The turrets should be more powerful like only weak to cc skills or piercing projectiles; they are made of steel and shouldn't break like made of wood. Turrets projectiles from rifle and rocket could be explosives, creating a link with Explosives Minor Master "Steel Packed Powder" unlocking inflicting vulnerabilities. And so Shaped Charge trait.-When receiving boons, like through thrown elixirs, turrets should earn them too, or at least receive boons from other turrets if under trait Inventions Major Master "Experimental Turrets.".-Making supply crate interesting as elite, prime beam if holo is awesome, stealth gyro is okay let's say as scrapper, but the crate.... at this point it can be replaced with a moving turret inflicting conditions, or as some said in other threads, a laser turrets, electrical field one, shrapnel?

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@Aooogah.1673 said:

A rework to shift kits to the F-bar is so far away from what's even possible that it's ridiculous to think about. Seriously, running bombs, grenades, laser disk, throw mine, and battering ram? Or bombs, grenades, rocket boots, flamethrower, and laser disk, for the condition-flavored among us? It's nice to dream but discussions like this should probably sit a little closer to the realistic in order to remain productive.

I am simply suggesting that kits belong on the F-bar because one of engineer's class mechanic, no weapon swap, exists because of kits. With the current design if you want access to a weapon swap that gives you melee capabilities as core engineer, you must use one of your utility slots. That limits overall build diversity. For example Tool kit synergy with turrets would have more impact if tool kit didn't replace a turret.

My suggestion would involve removing the healing and elite tool belt slots so that the F-bar looks like this: F1-F3 (Utility tool belts), F4+F5, (Kit Slots). F5 is replaced with elite spec mechanics. The examples you give are not even that ridiculous. I think a change like this would free up some restricting choices with engi build design. I don't think it would make the class overpowered, especially since core engineer is already at a disadvantage due to the lack of a weapon swap.

Holosmith is actually a perfect example of this change in action. Kits are essentially obsolete with holosmith. Why run a kit and use a utility slot when you have access to a kit that exists separate from the utility bar. Freeing up the build to take more important utilities like elixir s and elixir u.

You said it yourself:

@Aooogah.1673 said:Frankly, with holosmith available, if you're even running power core engineer at all, you're living in the past or running a "because it's open world and nobody even cares" build.

Core engineer and scrapper don't have the same inherent benefit that holosmith has with their class design. Therefore holosmith will continue to outperform them unless they completely nerf photon forge into the ground.

[Aooogah.1673]

You said it yourself:

@Aooogah.1673 said:Frankly, with holosmith available, if you're even running power core engineer at all, you're living in the past or running a "because it's open world and nobody even cares" build.

Context matters: I was rebutting a desire for a buff to the pistol autoattack, and pointing out that you don't use it in condition builds and that you're doing it wrong if you are running power engineer using pistols. Nobody is arguing that core/scrapper have competition with holosmith (in PVE at least)

Kits are essentially obsolete with holosmith

It sounds like you don't play condition holosmith which use three kits; also, you use grenade kit fairly extensively running the current sword/pistol meta. Running rifle, you still use bomb kit and grenade kit, and that build while no longer meta is still better than sword/pistol in select fights that are very very short.

run a kit and use a utility slot when you have access to a kit that exists separate from the utility bar. Freeing up the build to take more important utilities like elixir s and elixir u

I know that most suggestions focus on suggesting the positive changes rather than including the "negative" changes that would have to be included for balance's sake (such as here if they made the change you are suggesting they might introduce the 9 second weapon swap cooldown to engineer since what you are describing is effectively like an elementalist attunement). Acknowledging that, I still have to say, what you describe sounds extremely overpowered. The "examples I give that aren't even that ridiculous" could increase our DPS by as much as 20% or give us room to be near unkillable while still an offensive threat. We would be completely broken in competitive modes.

I'm not saying it isn't a balancable concept, but I am saying that at face value it's a ridiculous suggestion because it removes a LOT of tradeoffs and would allow us room to bring our strongest defenses at the same time as our strongest offenses which isn't a fair balance.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@Aooogah.1673 said:

You said it yourself:

@Aooogah.1673 said:Frankly, with holosmith available, if you're even running power core engineer at all, you're living in the past or running a "because it's open world and nobody even cares" build.

Context matters: I was rebutting a desire for a buff to the pistol autoattack, and pointing out that you don't use it in condition builds and that you're doing it wrong if you are running power engineer using pistols. Nobody is arguing that core/scrapper have competition with holosmith (in PVE at least)

Even with context your statement still implies that holosmith is naturally better than core power engineer. The statement doesn't refer to your previous comment about pistols, and has the same meaning without previous context. Which is why I pulled it out.

Frankly, with holosmith available, if you're even running power core engineer at all, you're living in the past or running a "because it's open world and nobody even cares" build..

Kits are essentially obsolete with holosmith

It sounds like you don't play condition holosmith which use three kits; also, you use grenade kit fairly extensively running the current sword/pistol meta. Running rifle, you still use bomb kit and grenade kit, and that build while no longer meta is still better than sword/pistol in select fights that are very very short.

run a kit and use a utility slot when you have access to a kit that exists separate from the utility bar. Freeing up the build to take more important utilities like elixir s and elixir u

I know that most suggestions focus on suggesting the positive changes rather than including the "negative" changes that would have to be included for balance's sake (such as here if they made the change you are suggesting they might introduce the 9 second weapon swap cooldown to engineer since what you are describing is effectively like an elementalist attunement). Acknowledging that, I still have to say, what you describe sounds extremely overpowered. The "examples I give that aren't even that ridiculous" could increase our DPS by as much as 20% or give us room to be near unkillable while still an offensive threat. We would be completely broken in competitive modes.

I'm not saying it isn't a balancable concept, but I am saying that at face value it's a ridiculous suggestion because it removes a LOT of tradeoffs and would allow us room to bring our strongest defenses at the same time as our strongest offenses which isn't a fair balance.

Competively kits are not used with meta holosmith builds. They are used in PvE because you don't need to worry about bringing utility like break stuns, mobility, or sustain. PvE runs 3 kits because you are trying to squeeze every bit of damage out.

Typically with how kits are designed right now you bring those kits for a handful of abilities. To me that's bad class design. More than one skill in a kit should be relevant. Of course with a change like this, there would need to be rebalancing. Kits currently are balanced around having access to 5 kits simultaneously. That's why a lot of them feel weak or empty.

I don't see how this is overpowered. Yes it would be similar to elementalist attunements, however elementalist have access to 4 "kits" while my suggestion would limit to 2. This would also be inherantly different to elementalist because you get to choose which kits go into the slots which make for more interesting build designs.