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(video) Build templates, and why the design is horrible in it's current state.


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@Seera.5916 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:That punishes hardcore players and loyal spenders even more....are you crazy?

If anything buying more should get cheaper.

No, I'm not. If slots start out more expensive and become cheaper the more you buy, that instead punishes non-hardcore players who only need a few additional slots instead of large numbers. There are a lot more non-hardcore players than hardcore players and loyal spenders. I was looking at it taking all types of players into account, not just some. I agree that my approach would make templates more expensive for hardcore players, but would also increase availability of additional slots for the overall player base by having lower entry prizes.

Then it should be the first one is at a reduced charge (aka entry fee), then any additional are the original charge. So first for 100, then the remaining are 200. Not this 100(x+1) where x is the number of slots you've purchased.

What they should do is discount bulk purchases.

You mean something like getting a whole bunch for free for instance? Done.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:That punishes hardcore players and loyal spenders even more....are you crazy?

If anything buying more should get cheaper.

No, I'm not. If slots start out more expensive and become cheaper the more you buy, that instead punishes non-hardcore players who only need a few additional slots instead of large numbers. There are a lot more non-hardcore players than hardcore players and loyal spenders. I was looking at it taking all types of players into account, not just some. I agree that my approach would make templates more expensive for hardcore players, but would also increase availability of additional slots for the overall player base by having lower entry prizes.

Then it should be the first one is at a reduced charge (aka entry fee), then any additional are the original charge. So first for 100, then the remaining are 200. Not this 100(x+1) where x is the number of slots you've purchased.

What they should do is discount bulk purchases.

You mean something like getting a whole bunch for free for instance? Done.

Since when are 2 equipment tabs, 3 build template slots, and 3 build storage slots a bunch? Even if you throw in the 3 build storage templates being offered for free, that's still not a bunch. And just the 3 build storage templates being offered in the store for free is a not a bunch on its own either.

A bunch would be the build templates and the equipment tabs set to max for say up to 3 characters and the build template storage at max for free That's a bunch for free. AKA 9 build templates, 12 equipment tabs, and 21 build storage slots. That's a bunch.

What I said was they should offer the first one at a discount and any further at the regular price. Whether they put that discount at free or 50% or whatever.

Offering the first one cheaper makes it easier for people to buy the first one. Once they've bought one, it gets easier to buy more, even if the price is higher. Because they've seen the benefit they gained from having another one. On a permanent basis

And I haven't heard them doing that. Just a temporary one on just the build template storage slots. And to me, that comes off as they know the limits are set too low so they're offering that one pack to attempt to appease us and make them think they're being nice.

Unless you can link to people where ANet says we're going to get a bunch for free. I'm sure everyone would actually like that. Means they've listened to feedback and have altered their plans to make more people happy.

So please, don't put words in my mouth. I'm very literal. I say what I mean.

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@Seera.5916 said:Since when are 2 equipment tabs, 3 build template slots, and 3 build storage slots a bunch? Even if you throw in the 3 build storage templates being offered for free, that's still not a bunch.

From what I have seen, we are getting some as part of the core game, just like every other quantity-based feature they sell in the GS. That's not a bunch to you? Sounds like something you should get over. No reasonable person is going to argue what 'a bunch' means.

You think Anet should offer volume pricing/etc? ... you, me and everyone should already have a really high certainty of how these things are going to be priced ... just like every other quantity-based feature in the GS. If you think of things Anet should do ... and you know they aren't ... you're expectations aren't realistic. In the last 7 years, have you ever seen Anet offer volume-pricing or discounting for bank slots, inventory slots, character slots, shared bags, etc .... ? I haven't. I wouldn't expect such a thing for this feature or any other.

My advice is that you watch for sales on the GS, because we know Anet has them. Get your 'volume-discount' then.

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@YMIHere.9580 said:What happens to your off hand axe when you swap to a greatsword?

The same thing that happens to it when I double-click it in my inventory. I have an extremely well sorted inventory regarding my equipable items. Everything has its prelocated slot, for each two-handed weapon I always leave a free slot next to it so that I can easily swap it for two other weapons. It's really simple to manage and causes no hassle whatsoever.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Seera.5916 said:Since when are 2 equipment tabs, 3 build template slots, and 3 build storage slots a bunch? Even if you throw in the 3 build storage templates being offered for free, that's still not a bunch.

From what I have seen, we are getting some as part of the core game, just like every other quantity-based feature they sell in the GS. That's not a bunch to you? Sounds like something you should get over. No reasonable person is going to argue what 'a bunch' means.

You think Anet should offer volume pricing/etc? ... you, me and everyone should already have a really high certainty of how these things are going to be priced ... just like every other quantity-based feature in the GS. If you think of things Anet should do ... and you know they aren't ... you're expectations aren't realistic. In the last 7 years, have you ever seen Anet offer volume-pricing or discounting for bank slots, inventory slots, character slots, shared bags, etc .... ? I haven't. I wouldn't expect such a thing for this feature or any other.

My advice is that you watch for sales on the GS, because we know Anet has them. Get your 'volume-discount' then.

I do believe that any, as you say, reasonable person would say that after 7(!) years, for Anet to release an inferior build/gear swapping system to something a gamer did for free and charge for it, is unreasonable. For them to offer far less flexibility and not make it free is unreasonable. For them to expect players to pay for it with their time to make it even a pale shadow of the free version, is unreasonable. To remove the option of using ArcDPS and taking all the risks associated with it into their own hands sounds like monopolising to monetise for the sake of it.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Seera.5916 said:Since when are 2 equipment tabs, 3 build template slots, and 3 build storage slots a bunch? Even if you throw in the 3 build storage templates being offered for free, that's still not a bunch.

From what I have seen, we are getting some as part of the core game, just like every other quantity-based feature they sell in the GS. That's not a bunch to you? Sounds like something you should get over. No reasonable person is going to argue what 'a bunch' means.

You think Anet should offer volume pricing/etc? ... you, me and everyone should already have a really high certainty of how these things are going to be priced ... just like every other quantity-based feature in the GS. If you think of things Anet should do ... and you know they aren't ... you're expectations aren't realistic. In the last 7 years, have you ever seen Anet offer volume-pricing or discounting for bank slots, inventory slots, character slots, shared bags, etc .... ? I haven't. I wouldn't expect such a thing for this feature or any other.

My advice is that you watch for sales on the GS, because we know Anet has them. Get your 'volume-discount' then.

So which is it: are they giving us a bunch or are they giving us some? Because now, you've said both. No reasonable person will say that a bunch is the same quantity as some. Except for bananas.

So just because I have feeling that ANet's not going to do something means I just be quiet and not give my opinion on the matter? Already fully aware of just how likely ANet is to do what I'm suggesting. If you noticed, I said ANet should. Not that ANet will likely.

Again, please don't put words in my mouth. I've not stated my expectations so please don't assume what they are. But here they are so that you can stop putting words into my mouth. My expectations are that the equipment tabs will be priced like bag and bank slots - which is what they've said. I have no clue nor expectation on what the price will be for the build templates or the build template storage slots, but I expect a forum outcry unless they are dirt cheap or free, even if the price is reasonable. My expectations are also that I will likely never buy a single equipment tab since they are character specific and will likely be priced like bag slots. I haven't purchased any bag slots, not even on sale. Only have a few because they came in bundles with other things I wanted that made the cost more inline with I think they are worth. Not that I've used them. I don't know which character to put them on. I don't farm, can't stand the monotony, so I don't run into inventory issues often enough on any character. For the build templates and the build template storage slots I have no expectations on if I will buy more than the free build template storage slot pack that ANet will be offering for free when the templates are released. Will likely depend on cost and how many you get per pack.

I don't overhype things or draw unrealistic expectations on things when there's precedent for what to expect. I look for posts and comments that give me the facts on what an expansion, release, patch, etc will have. Not the posts that look like it's just a hype thread. I thoroughly believe that satisfaction in something is when you're expectations are met or exceeded for that something. I don't tend to watch trailers or other such promotional material as they only really serve to hype up something rather than state what features are coming or what the gist of the premise of the story is for that content. For most games I expect to get what I am told is going to be in something, that there will be glitches, and that most of the glitches will get fixed at some point, but not necessarily quickly. The games not covered by this expectation are those made by EA.

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@Nick.5276 said:

@Seera.5916 said:Since when are 2 equipment tabs, 3 build template slots, and 3 build storage slots a bunch? Even if you throw in the 3 build storage templates being offered for free, that's still not a bunch.

From what I have seen, we are getting some as part of the core game, just like every other quantity-based feature they sell in the GS. That's not a bunch to you? Sounds like something you should get over. No reasonable person is going to argue what 'a bunch' means.

You think Anet should offer volume pricing/etc? ... you, me and everyone should already have a really high certainty of how these things are going to be priced ... just like every other quantity-based feature in the GS. If you think of things Anet should do ... and you know they aren't ... you're expectations aren't realistic. In the last 7 years, have you ever seen Anet offer volume-pricing or discounting for bank slots, inventory slots, character slots, shared bags, etc .... ? I haven't. I wouldn't expect such a thing for this feature or any other.

My advice is that you watch for sales on the GS, because we know Anet has them. Get your 'volume-discount' then.

I do believe that any, as you say, reasonable person would say that after 7(!) years, for Anet to release an inferior build/gear swapping system to something a gamer did for free and charge for it, is unreasonable. For them to offer far less flexibility and not make it free is unreasonable. For them to expect players to pay for it with their time to make it even a pale shadow of the free version, is unreasonable. To remove the option of using ArcDPS and taking all the risks associated with it into their own hands sounds like monopolising to monetise for the sake of it.

I wasn't expecting it to be completely free, at least not anything that would free up actual inventory. But the quantities given for free are lower than what the average person that build templates are the most useful for use. I'm not saying that the people who have 20+ builds needed to be able to put all of their builds in for free. But more than the 2 complete builds we're currently set to be given for free (how many builds use the same equipment?). Complete build = traits, skills, and equipment.

I think people may not have been at least not as angry if the build templates and storage were just set to maximum and were free, but the equipment tabs cost some money. Or an upfront cost to unlock it all account wide with maxed out build templates and build template storage slots and 3 equipment tabs (1 for each mode or 1 for WvW, open world, and raid/fractal) and then pay for additional equipment tabs.

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@Ashantara.8731 said:

@YMIHere.9580 said:What happens to your off hand axe when you swap to a greatsword?

The same thing that happens to it when I double-click it in my inventory. I have an extremely well sorted inventory regarding my equipable items. Everything has its prelocated slot, for each two-handed weapon I always leave a free slot next to it so that I can easily swap it for two other weapons. It's really simple to manage and causes no hassle whatsoever.

I do this as well, I just do it all manually so I don't screw myself over on edge cases after relying on presets to do it mostly automatically. It would have been nice if they could have just made invisible bags grab bound items, but with some loot and (perhaps more importantly) bound crafting materials that would require some serious adjustments.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Seera.5916" said:Since when are 2 equipment tabs, 3 build template slots, and 3 build storage slots a bunch? Even if you throw in the 3 build storage templates being offered for free, that's still not a bunch.

From what I have seen, we are getting some as part of the core game, just like every other quantity-based feature they sell in the GS. That's not a bunch to you? Sounds like something you should get over. No reasonable person is going to argue what 'a bunch' means.Indeed. No reasonable person is going to claim that "a bunch" is the same as "some" (or "a few" the same as "many").

You think Anet should offer volume pricing/etc? ... you, me and everyone should already have a really high certainty of how these things are going to be priced ... just like every other quantity-based feature in the GS. If you think of things Anet should do ... and you know they aren't ... you're expectations aren't realistic.So, we should expect Anet to kitten us over, and be content with it?

In the last 7 years, have you ever seen Anet offer volume-pricing or discounting for bank slots, inventory slots, character slots, shared bags, etc .... ? I haven't. I wouldn't expect such a thing for this feature or any other.

I do remember them giving us wardrobe for free. I do remember not having to buy wardrobe slots piece by piece, but getting everything at once. For free. Although you're right - if that QoL update went today, i
would
expect them to heavily monetize it. I wouldn't be glad about it, i would call them out for it, and i definitely wouldn't be saying that nothing changed in their business model in the last 7 years however. It
has
changed. And not for the better.

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@"Ashantara.8731" said:

You should take your own advice more seriously. ;) Even though GW2 cannot use the exact same build template system GW1 used, due to a different skill system, the main point the video creator made was: GW1 was saving builds locally, which meant an unlimited amount of saved builds and no additional server involvement. This is exactly what ArcDPS does, too.

ANet could have created the same system for GW2, but they decided against it, mainly for the money, thereby complicating things a lot by saving builds to their servers (with limited database entries, hence limiting the amount of template slots) and having gear saved in a new "armory" database table on the servers as well instead of leaving it in a character's inventory table and simply swapping the items.

I stand by what I said. He is talking about how Build Templates work but he is explaining it wrong. That is not how they work.

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@"Wakani.1829" said:why don't you humor us all, by ejucating us on what he got wrong then? - otherwise what you just said, is nothing more than white-knighting for Arenanet in yet another massive blunder on their part.

Regardless of how you look at it, when you compare what ArcDPS templates can currently do, and has been able to do for years now - to ArenaNet's Long under way templates, it's night and day, and not in favor of the ArenaNet version.

I believe the word that you were looking for is "educating" j/s

I am not going to get into a peeing contest with you when it is quite obvious that you are one of the people that just enjoys complaining like a spoiled child when things don't go exactly the way that they think they should. I, for one, am quite happy with the way that the new Templates work. Of course part of the reason that I am happy with them is, possibly, because I watched the entire video where they explained them, and answered questions about them, so I actually have a clue how they work.

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@Agrotera.1254 said:I am not going to get into a peeing contest with you when it is quite obvious that you are one of the people that just enjoys complaining like a spoiled child when things don't go exactly the way that they think they should. I, for one, am quite happy with the way that the new Templates work. Of course part of the reason that I am happy with them is, possibly, because I watched the entire video where they explained them, and answered questions about them, so I actually have a clue how they work.That's an interesting coincidence. You see, i also have watched their stream, and listened to them answering quetsions, so i also actually have a clue how templates work. And it is exactly because i have a clue that i am complaining.

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@"Agrotera.1254" said:

I believe the word that you were looking for is "educating" j/s

Im not from the US or the UK, But thank you for proving my point by instantly resorting to a personal attack rather than pointing out how im wrong and you're right.

P.s. you still haven't pointed that out, we're all eagerly awaiting your wisdom smart guy.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:So, we should expect Anet to kitten us over, and be content with it?

Of course not ... you just vote with your wallet. Telling Anet how you want something they are going to sell doesn't make much sense if we already have high certainty how it will be sold to us. This feature is not different than other quantity-based features ... so you can be assured that it will be offered to us in the same way as other quantity-based features as well. Maybe you think that's getting screwed over ... that's just an unreasonable expectation because it's not based on what is evident from the reality and history of this game.

I do remember them giving us wardrobe for free. I do remember not having to buy wardrobe slots piece by piece, but getting everything at once. For free. Although you're right - if that QoL update went today, i would expect them to heavily monetize it. I wouldn't be glad about it, i would call them out for it, and i definitely wouldn't be saying that nothing changed in their business model in the last 7 years however. It has changed. And not for the better.

Like I said before, sure we get a few things for free once in a while ... that's exceptional. it's not that Anet has changed ... it's that getting free stuff is so exceptional, it's equivalent to noise as a measure of change. Anet has always sold quantity-based features to players .. .there IS no change.

Here is my guess ... we get 'some' (for my buddy who wants to argue if some = a bunch) inline with what they told us we would get and we can buy eaches for around 1200-1400 gems.

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@Seera.5916 said:

@Seera.5916 said:Since when are 2 equipment tabs, 3 build template slots, and 3 build storage slots a bunch? Even if you throw in the 3 build storage templates being offered for free, that's still not a bunch.

From what I have seen, we are getting some as part of the core game, just like every other quantity-based feature they sell in the GS. That's not a bunch to you? Sounds like something you should get over. No reasonable person is going to argue what 'a bunch' means.

You think Anet should offer volume pricing/etc? ... you, me and everyone should already have a really high certainty of how these things are going to be priced ... just like every other quantity-based feature in the GS. If you think of things Anet should do ... and you know they aren't ... you're expectations aren't realistic. In the last 7 years, have you ever seen Anet offer volume-pricing or discounting for bank slots, inventory slots, character slots, shared bags, etc .... ? I haven't. I wouldn't expect such a thing for this feature or any other.

My advice is that you watch for sales on the GS, because we know Anet has them. Get your 'volume-discount' then.

So which is it: are they giving us a bunch or are they giving us some?

six of one, half a dozen of the other

... or maybe you prefer the term 'a few'? how about 'multitude'? maybe 'quantity'? 'infinitude' is cool, but I can already tell you wouldn't like it.

You let me know how I should choose my words so we can get past your pedantic hangup.

In the mean time, your issue over words doesn't change the point I was making. I'm not expecting you to like or not like whatever Anet does or react ... or not ... to it. What I do expect is that we have some reasonable approach to using information, evidence, observations that we already have or can make to come to some reasonable expectation of what we will likely see. Nothing I have seen in this game suggests anything BUT the standard approach that Anet has always used to offer quantity-based items to players in the GS. If that's not your expectation, then you must love being disappointed.

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@Wakani.1829 said:

@"Agrotera.1254" said:I believe the word that you were looking for is "educating" j/sIm not from the US or the UK, But thank you for proving my point by instantly resorting to a personal attack rather than pointing out how im wrong and you're right.

You have to admit that mistyping "educating" while talking about education is extremely funny. ;)

All fun aside, they did say in their stream that further updates would follow up later, like how legendary gear is being dealt with, so there is hope for improvement. Which, of course, still doesn't solve nonsense like having build storage on the server instead of being able to save an unlimited amount of templates locally, or why equipment information cannot be saved along with it. Regardless of where a template is being stored, you would still program routines that check whether all information saved in the template agrees with your current inventory, so there is no excuse other than making more money out of it to store templates on the server.

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I saw people arguing that Anet has never done bulk pricing which...if I'm understanding correctly, that statement is wrong. They do have some things in the gemstore that have a cheaper unit price if you buy the bigger quantities, including things like shared inventory slots. So it's very possible we might get prices for these templates that are also cheaper if bought in bulk. And I'd be all for that being the case.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:So, we should expect Anet to kitten us over, and be content with it?

Of course not ... you just vote with your wallet.

"Voting with your wallet" doesn't work unless you also tell the company why you are not spending. Are you not buying X because you don't want it, because you think it's too pricey, because you have an ideological beef against the pricing structure? Of course, individual complaints are not going to have much impact, but if there are enough of them, and if sales are lower than ANet expects, then the company may have an idea why you're "voting."

If you were around back then, you might remember the beef by "veteran players" against ANet's business policy with HoT purchase, specifically the lack of a free character slot. A lot of people said similar things. ANet later decided to offer a free character slot for "veteran players" (i.e., those who purchased core earlier) with pre-purchase of HoT. Had people not made those complaints, ANet would have had no way to know if people were not buying HoT because of the slot, or other reasons (one that came up a lot was the "low" amount of content. Another was the inclusion of core with HoT for new adopters).

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@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:And then complain that they have put something desirable in a shop to tempt us to buy - how exactly do you want anet to pay for dev costs and invest in the game? And on top of that you can get them for free as well by converting from gold!

"I'm rich, you know." ;)

@Ototo.3214 said:So it's very possible we might get prices for these templates that are also cheaper if bought in bulk. And I'd be all for that being the case.

Actually, you're right. Let's wait and see what we are going to get on release day and how much it is going to cost if we need to expand. Things might change within the next three weeks.

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@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Some People are happy to play with no subAnd then complain that they have put something desirable in a shop to tempt us to buy - how exactly do you want anet to pay for dev costs and invest in the game? And on top of that you can get them for free as well by converting from gold!

So, you know those are the same people? Ah, my bad, you don't.

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@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:So, we should expect Anet to kitten us over, and be content with it?

Of course not ... you just vote with your wallet.

"Voting with your wallet" doesn't work unless you also tell the company
why
you are not spending.

Agreed ... and if you want Anet to take you seriously, you complain when you've tried the product, not seen a few videos about it before it's even released. EXACTLY like how you're example of the free character slot for HOT went down.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:So, we should expect Anet to kitten us over, and be content with it?

Of course not ... you just vote with your wallet.

"Voting with your wallet" doesn't work unless you also tell the company
why
you are not spending.

Agreed ... and if you want Anet to take you seriously, you complain when you've tried the product, not seen a few videos about it before it's even released. EXACTLY like how you're example of the free character slot for HOT went down....you do realize that the whole slot debacle with HoT took place (and got partially addressed) months before launch?
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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Some People are happy to play with no subAnd then complain that they have put something desirable in a shop to tempt us to buy - how exactly do you want anet to pay for dev costs and invest in the game? And on top of that you can get them for free as well by converting from gold!

So, you know those are the same people? Ah, my bad, you don't.

Lol well we can assume most people are happy to play with no sub.. So ye 'your bad'

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