Condi Healer Alacrigade?

[BrokenGlass.9356]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAYVltQJsMiipRTsNqiNShMDagn/01TH-zRRYoRFHybQ3lSBRQchQ1JQ6FgWzifnbA-e

I realize that this has probably been looked at before... But something occurred to me, the shortbow has amazing bleed output, and... Burning is the condition who best operates unbuffed... So why not camp shortbow? The extra conditions provided by Mallyx, or corruption trait lines require commitment to expertise, which we can't afford. And so become anti-synergystic. And the renegade line gives us both bleed duration, and damage...and invocation gives us extra bleeds when attuning to Kala.

So, it should, in theory, deal more damage than the harrier's version, while putting up much better dps numbers. I don't know if it will push up to diviner's numbers... But I can hope.

This build doesn't bring assassin's prescience... But invocation can easily be swapped out. Generally we want the extra burst heal for attuning to ventari gained from invocation, because we are not taking the 'healing orbs' trait. We are taking the outgoing healing percentage trait to squeeze our green numbers up as high as possible. Alacrity is covered on 10 folks with just barely a 1 sec gap, unless orders from above is cast with staff out. Not counting on 5 man alacrity coverage on ventari. (so the other sub group might go without alacrity for 1 sec, if your mess up your rotation.... Worst case.)

In exchange over the harrier's version... You gain:-the ability to stay at range-more CC with the addition of shortbow 5-more ability to operate solo in open world.-an extra burst heal.-the nearly spirit-like ability to use razorclaw's rage in Kala (instead of icerazor) , providing extra group dps buffs alongside soulcleave

So, I was hoping to get some real master revenants... Hopefully legendary armor folks who like golem testing.... To tell me where this build stands.

As far as I can tell, it checks all the boxes for healer Alacrigade. Plus a few more.

1. Healing, check.
2. Alacrity, check.
3. Some fury, check.
4. Some resistance, cool... Check.
5. Some retaliation. (...cool?) check.
6. Missing some protection... You could easily flip this trait back in, in a serious situation you can just turn off 'piercing shortbow, more damaging bleeds' and turn on 'protection on warband member' but it seems like a pretty big sacrifice of personal dps for a boon your quickbrand will sneeze out by accident.
7. Destroying break bars, check. Oh, check again.

Idk, thoughts?

[Ayrilana.1396]

As a heal alacrigade, it’s not your responsibility to do damage.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:As a heal alacrigade, it’s not your responsibility to do damage.

Sick! Thanks for the opinion!

I was hoping for analysis.

More looking for... 'I've tested similar builds and your healing power is low, if you switch gear for....' or 'why not take corruption, if you take these traits....'

So.... Theoretically, if I can do everything a standard heal renegade can do.... Plus more dps.... Please explain how a faster boss clear is a bad thing?

[Ayrilana.1396]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:As a heal alacrigade, it’s not your responsibility to do damage.

Sick! Thanks for the opinion!

I was hoping for analysis.

More looking for... 'I've tested similar builds and your healing power is low, if you switch gear for....' or 'why not take corruption, if you take these traits....'

So.... Theoretically, if I can do everything a standard heal renegade can do.... Plus more dps.... Please explain how a faster boss clear is a bad thing?

You won’t be able to do everything a properly geared/traited heal alacrigade can do.

I’m not going to do the analysis for you to prove/disprove your build.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:So.... Theoretically, if I can do everything a standard heal renegade can do.... Plus more dps.... Please explain how a faster boss clear is a bad thing?

Because you will never ever be the main healer in these groups. That will still be a druid and tbh. if a group needs a second healer you should probably play a proper one.

That being said, ill look at it when im home in a few hours, but i dont have a lot of hope for this.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:As a heal alacrigade, it’s not your responsibility to do damage.

Sick! Thanks for the opinion!

I was hoping for analysis.

More looking for... 'I've tested similar builds and your healing power is low, if you switch gear for....' or 'why not take corruption, if you take these traits....'

So.... Theoretically, if I can do everything a standard heal renegade can do.... Plus more dps.... Please explain how a faster boss clear is a bad thing?

You won’t be able to do everything a properly geared/traited heal alacrigade can do.

I’m not going to do the analysis for you to prove/disprove your build.

No, you're just going to throw a completely negative hat into the ring, then bow out with a #micdrop.

Like it's cool to not like my idea guys... But please either join the discussion to make it better, or provide reasonable answers to why you don't like it... But don't come take a drive-by-shooting at my idea without even explaining yourself. All our time would be saved by you, thinking your negative comments to yourself.

So, let's perform some analysis. What can a properly geared at traited Alacrigade do, that this build cannot?

-it has less healing power. (I don't consider this much of a blow, considering the massive overhealing possible on alicrigade.)-it has less power. (meaning the damaging portion of soulcleave summit hits for less... A number currently not tracked on dps meters.)-it has less boon duration. (however, it can still provide 100% uptime. And if you have to use Orders From Above on shortbow rather than staff, there's only a 1 second gap in the other group, which you can cover on your own group with ventari.-it does not currently provide Assassin's Prescience. (but can be trait swapped to do so at a small dps, and boon output loss.)

What can it do that a properly geared and traited Alacrigade cannot do?-it's crit capped. (more dps)-it can operate at range due to shortbow. (this is a huge bonus considering how renegade healing works between kala's ranged AoE's and Ventari's tablet.-it has more CC for break bars from shortbow 5.-lots of condi applications... Means much more respectable DPS.

So from my initial analysis it looks like, the things I loose, can be overcome with skilled play.

Any skilled revenants out there feel like they both overhealing, and have low damage?

[BrokenGlass.9356]

Harrier Buildhttp://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAwyZllQLMKajNRasKKjFSjsBygnvl37H-zRJYqRHfZUdKkeF47s43mF-e

Seraph/Plaguedoctor Buildhttp://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAYVltQJsMiipRTsNqiNShMDagn/1/TH-zRRYoRFHybQ3lSBRQchQ1JQ6FgWzifnbA-e

Comparisons of tool tipped healing:

Staff 4Harrier: 5178Seraph: 4402

Staff 2Harrier: 2192Seraph: 1953

Ventari move tabletHarrier: 2523Seraph: 2129

Ventari tablet burstHarrier: 9931Serpah: 7243

Healing orb from Ventari eliteHarrier: 3957Seraph: 3559

Breakrazor's BastionHarrier: 3136Seraph: 2299

Soulcleave' SummitHarrier: 1564 per hitSeraph: 1325 per hit.

So, looking at this, I don't see why I couldn't be main healer with that. Its really not that much less healing. And I don't think the tool tips in the skill builder account for % healing increase. And the % increase is surprisingly close, as seraph's build takes outgoing healing trait, but not mink runes, where harrier has monk and takes extra orbs trait. But that trait choice probably needs testing.

Like, I'm not saying what I came up with is better... I'm saying it's probably also good enough for proper testing.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:-it has less power. (meaning the damaging portion of soulcleave summit hits for less... A number currently not tracked on dps meters.)

It is tracked. It adds about 1.3k DPS for a guardian.

What can it do that a properly geared and traited Alacrigade cannot do?-it's crit capped. (more dps)

Alacrigade actually is crit capped. Heal Renegade is not.

The thing is, your Soulcleave Summit adds 365 Damage with 1k Power and 421 as a proper Alacrigade. You are loosing so much. You wont be able to make up for it by just using shortbow.Why do you use Fierce Infusion? You Fury is almost at 100% from Invokers Rage. Add Fury from the Firebrand or the chrono extension and you are fine.Next problem is, that you wont do anything if you have to swap to staff. Staff doesnt have any damaging conditions.

Honestly, i really dont see your build being better. Especially considering that you do not provide porper Soulcleave Damage and youre lacking AP.Probably best to go and Bench it. I got 9.6k as a first number. All boons and all buffs, small hitbox 4Million HP Golem. Thats the normal Harrier build btw.I can do a "benchmark" with proper boons if you want.

https://i.imgur.com/e6fm9AJ.png

[BrokenGlass.9356]

Firstly, heal renegade in Seraph's is crit capped. In fact overcapped thanks to that cheeky 33% crit in renegade. Which is why I had to bring my crit down by adding plaguedoctor pieces.

And a delta of about 60 dmg per hit isn't very much loss from soulcleave. It is loss. Definitely.

And again, you're right about the staff. While on staff I don't do anything so far as damage.

Several counterpoints. When swapping to staff, it's either because I need to break a boss, condi cleanse, or burst heal in Kala. If I'm doing any of those things, I'm only locked out of damage for 9 sec. Totally OK for a healer. After all, we expect healers to have poor dps. However, when a power build does these actions, they don't have the conditions ticking in the background that I will.... They do however have auto attacks from staff... Which are nowhere near as good as the ones from sword. So more tradeoffs.

Also, I don't claim it's better it may not be at all. If it's at lease different but playable that's enough for me. Because if I can walk into a raid and say, 'healer renegade, and link my KP, and put up good alacrity, and nobody dies...' then it's good enough for a 'condi variant'. Secondly, there's probably bosses who are better handled with conditions that are currently being handled by chrono/condi druid instead of firebregade.... If this build works, it could open fire bregades' usability. (potentially)

Either way, I'm just trying to make sure it's good enough even if it's not meta.

If it's totally trash tho, I'd like to know why. So, I appreciate your analysis. Cause I'd rather know before farming the gear for this sucker.

[Ayrilana.1396]

Alright. I tested your build versus the meta heal alacrigade build. Your alacrity is not 100% uptime as I consistently had two seconds left on the cooldown by the time alacrity wore off. This was not the case with the meta build and that build seemed to provide about a second extra. I camped shortbow auto attack on both builds as you should not be using the other skills which consume energy. The difference between the two was like 600 DPS. Your build essentially is giving up a lot of heal potential, and assassin's presence, for a very minor DPS increase. If you're really set on using shortbow as a healer, you're better off dropping swords on the meta build for shortbow rather than use the build you provided. When in the raid, and doing your heal rotation, your DPS is going to be much lower and insignificant so it's not going to really matter..

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

Just a disclaimer: I’ve done a fair amount of experimentation with Heal Condi Ren and typically play it if/when we need that Heal Ren slot. You should expect about 5-7k DPS in an actual raid setting with any Heal + Condi set ups. Probably 5k or under though especially if you’re healing a lot. You lose out on a ton of damage by not having a focus on torment (your main damaging condition) and additionally since the main goal while raiding will be to heal and keep your group alive and deal additional damage second, i’m not sure it’s worth it to give up (from my own experience with various builds like these) to give up the higher healing power and concentration that other variants can run.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:And a delta of about 60 dmg per hit isn't very much loss from soulcleave. It is loss. Definitely.

60 is a lot. Remember that the Skill doesnt have an ICD.

They do however have auto attacks from staff... Which are nowhere near as good as the ones from sword. So more tradeoffs.

Staff isnt that much worse on a Heal Renegade. You lose about 300DPS.

Secondly, there's probably bosses who are better handled with conditions that are currently being handled by chrono/condi druid instead of firebregade.... If this build >works, it could open fire bregades' usability. (potentially)

If your group is good enough to play with a Condi Druid, your group wont need you as a second healer either. At that point you might as well go alacrigade or take a second condi renegade and play with RR.

If it's totally trash tho, I'd like to know why. So, I appreciate your analysis. Cause I'd rather know before farming the gear for this sucker.

Because you dont even get 20% more Torment Damage/Duration from the trait in Corruption.You dont have Mallyx and quite frankly, EtD is super strong. You really dont wanna miss out on this when you play a condi build.Basically you are lacking everything that makes CRenegade strong and want it to work on a Condi/Heal build.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

I appreciate the thoughtful responses. And the two second alacrity gap, I just cannot abide.

So, while I like the idea of tinkering a condi Alacrigade to work, it seems like this gear set doesn't do the trick.

I don't really see the problem is loosing Mallyx, as it mostly does torment, and the build as it stands has exactly 1 torment applicator. (sevenshot) yes Mallyx can give me torment on crit, and torment on chill, and poison on torment, with various idc's...

Also, it's possible there's a build in there that trades invocation for Mallyx, but that seems like more dps optimization for little gain over what I'm trying to make the build do.

If there weren't an alacrity gap... I'd be willing to bang my head against making this work. But it probably won't. It needs gear that's primary healing and concentration, secondary condition damage expertise. Which doesn't exist. Sadly.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:I appreciate the thoughtful responses. And the two second alacrity gap, I just cannot abide.

So, while I like the idea of tinkering a condi Alacrigade to work, it seems like this gear set doesn't do the trick.

I don't really see the problem is loosing Mallyx, as it mostly does torment, and the build as it stands has exactly 1 torment applicator. (sevenshot) yes Mallyx can give me torment on crit, and torment on chill, and poison on torment, with various idc's...

Also, it's possible there's a build in there that trades invocation for Mallyx, but that seems like more dps optimization for little gain over what I'm trying to make the build do.

If there weren't an alacrity gap... I'd be willing to bang my head against making this work. But it probably won't. It needs gear that's primary healing and concentration, secondary condition damage expertise. Which doesn't exist. Sadly.

If you’re running 1 Chrono the 2s Alacrity gap isn’t an issue, just an FYI, since it gets covered by SoI

[BrokenGlass.9356]

It may be on my, gear and test it eventually list. Prolly after I finish grinding the legendary armor.

[Jthug.9506]

Interesting idea, I might try something similar:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAUZltQJsNiipRTsMqiNShMDagHrk9TH-zRhYRBFgFExbUxhjEkQhUQCkaIUdFo7HJE2Dvl7/qA-e

But I think I would go full on orbs in most cases, I like orbs for most medium pressure situations, I don't think I would seriously use this build on high pressure healing situations such as gorseval or the escort after desmina if running ahead. But for general purpose healing I think it might be better than swords and harrier. I put in just enough toughness to be able to tank if needed, but otherwise probably full PD stats is fine. I was able to get the bleed duration up to 58%, which is pretty good considering full time alacrity and so forth, but to pull this off will require ascended food. If you want to not go orbs and rely on full size heals, you might be able to get through the high pressure healing situations OK but I think you will end up on staff to bridge the gap...

[Jthug.9506]

Well I went home and played around with it. Unfortunately not as good as swords, not sure exactly what snow crows has rn but I imagine it's along the lines of this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmyAwyZltQJsNiipRTsMqiNShMDagn/l37H-zRZYdhLHO6AkgMKjqzg0LBf/IBye41YhxIA-e

[Ayrilana.1396]

@"Jthug.9506" said:Well I went home and played around with it. Unfortunately not as good as swords, not sure exactly what snow crows has rn but I imagine it's along the lines of this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmyAwyZltQJsNiipRTsMqiNShMDagn/l37H-zRZYdhLHO6AkgMKjqzg0LBf/IBye41YhxIA-e

Close. The meta build uses harriers since you still need concentration to maintain alacrity.

[Jthug.9506]

yeah, my build had 70%, which is enough if there is a boon chrono using SOI otherwise would need to put 1-2 more pieces of harrier.

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

(Yes, I'm necro'ing a thread...)

I've been trying out a variant of the OP's condi alacrity build for OW metas/bounties/etc. and it seems to work quite nicely. I know its not meta and that makes me a terrible person, but oh well.http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAUlfltQJsMiipRTsNqiNShMDagn/V97H-zRZYRRMCENKQfvJ2pkmEIdFQHChQEBecWA8cD-e

I chose Devastation instead of Invocation since I'm primarily sitting in Kalla most of the time, rather than swapping. The Apothecary pieces are just what I already had.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Why Devastation ? Why condi and precision when you have nothing to apply condition but mace, nor on crit, nor power ?You already have healing power + ventari/salvation, excessive sustain with battle scars is useless; play Corruption or don't play condi at all.

Plus imo boon duration / concentration is really too high, you don"t need that much. Particularly with ventari/salvation you can already loop alacrity with few BD.

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:Why Devastation ? Why condi and precision when you have nothing to apply condition but mace, nor on crit, nor power ?You already have healing power + ventari/salvation, excessive sustain with battle scars is useless; play Corruption or don't play condi at all.

Plus imo boon duration / concentration is really too high, you don"t need that much. Particularly with ventari/salvation you can already loop alacrity with few BD.

• Devastation is for Assassin's Presence. In order to reserve enough energy for Alacrity, you won't be putting out much damage, so Corruption isn't going to be a big benefit and it has no group benefit.
• Precision in Seraph's was for an alternate iteration which used Water sigil on crit. I suppose this version could be full Plaguedoctor.
• Boon duration needs to be around ~89-91% for full Alacrity uptime.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

You need 80% (77.777%) for perma alacrity with only Orders from Above. But don't forget you also grant alacrity with Ventari; not to 10 players but still alacrity.You don"t need 100% precision to cast, on CD, sigil of water. Fury + the 33% already give you 58% precision; then the mace #2 + AA ensure you trigger the sigil on CD.

Sure Devastation brings AP, one trait at the cost of a totaly useless traitline for yourself in this configuration. Does people in group event deserve you to struggle when alone ?You have no benefit to play with condition damage rather than harrier/zealot sword/sword with your build.

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:You need 80% (77.777%) for perma alacrity with only Orders from Above. But don't forget you also grant alacrity with Ventari; not to 10 players but still alacrity.You don"t need 100% precision to cast, on CD, sigil of water. Fury + the 33% already give you 58% precision; then the mace #2 + AA ensure you trigger the sigil on CD.

Sure Devastation brings AP, one trait at the cost of a totaly useless traitline for yourself in this configuration. Does people in group event deserve you to struggle when alone ?You have no benefit to play with condition damage rather than harrier/zealot sword/sword with your build.

This is not for soloing. I have other condi builds for that. This is just support for OW metas, bounties, etc.; not raiding or fractals. I think, just as the OP wanted to show, that a condi Alacrity build is at least viable.

[Ayrilana.1396]

Practically any build is viable in open world.