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No Sense of Exploration


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Hey gang, sorry if this has come up in discussion before. It's a story post about the LW/saga situation. Even the expansion packs so far, I suppose.

I know the devs are limited by time and money (that gem store tho) but I have to say as a player who loves the world, not just the lore of the game, I've felt increasingly squeezed into a narrow alley of exploration in the game.

What I really liked about Guild Wars the First was that you could choose to play each campaign in any order. It really felt like replaying the game gave you a fresh new experience even if it were the same story. Even Eye of the North took this approach and gave you the option to complete its 3 branches (charr, asura, norn) in whichever order you choose. Crucially, while some maps were locked off until parts of the story were completed (looking at you, Cantha) you had free reign to run around and explore new maps. Yes, smaller back then, yes, no voiceovers, yes, I know. And yes I know I can skip my character ahead to new maps in GW2... but not really. And that brings me to the second point.

The tradeoff is that now the world feels more responsive to current events... but it doesn't feel like a world. They feel like levels (very square, too). Let's say I make a new character. The way that the whole of Elona reacts to me assumes I've completed all of living story season 1 (missing) and 2, HoT, and Season 3. It's linear. I'm playing the same character out of necessity of the plot. There's no way to "fast track" my character to the new content. Which... it's fine, I understand why. There's a story the devs want to tell... but. It's getting top heavy and bloated. There's no sense of a new horizon. Only "what's the next check box?"

Finally - the reason people prefer expansions over sagas and so on isn't because they're just blazing through content or entitled to """free""" (gem store funded) content. We know there's a minutiae of arbitrary tasks to complete in the achievement window. It's freshness that we yearn for. We want a square deal; vast lands to tread, new assets. New stories, side stories that aren't necessarily linked to us, apparently now the centre of the world... A land to truly explore. We're willing to pay for it.

The LW felt like a drip feed. Don't get me wrong - it had it's highlights. But did it feel like I was exploring? A little. Like exploring a theme park.

I'd be interested to see what you think. For all the wonderful choice we got in the beginning (personal story and core Tyria exploration) it sure feels like we've been squeezed through a funnel.

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Ah, the good old days of GW OG. When you could explore from map to map. Remember needing a runner to get to certain areas, what was the big one Lonar's pass / Yak's bend to get to Droknar's Forge...Iv'e never thought of it the way you put it, There is no sense of travel, journey, or exploration. When a new map appears you are asked to travel to Lions Arch and take this Boat/ Airship and are instantly transported into a sand boxed map. After that all you can explore is that until months down the line the next sand box / "Theme park" as you say opens up.When I went to theme parks as a child with family and now as a dad, the journey to was enjoyable and memorable...

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Tbh that was something that always bothered me every time I log into an alt.

"woah commander, your big business, you killed 3 elder dragons and a God!"

I feel like my alts should reply:

"yeah, about that, I'm not even half close to killing Zhaitan let alone the rest, you know... I'm here just doing tourism. And what is a commander? You must be mistakening me for someone else"

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Often overlooked, but what exploration there was in the game (and there was quite a bit in the beginning) has in part gone due to mounts and gliders too: There is just hardly any thrill or fear of falling or death or otherwise from wandering about anymore. Nothing like the original zones, with all the wonderful jumping puzzles etc etc. It's fundamentally down to risk v reward; no risk, no reward. Mounts and gliders are great, but they've made things too easy and taken away almost completely that aspect of play; exploration.

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It's what I liked about PoF. You felt like you were journeying through an extensive region. The LS maps are much more hit and miss and to say exploration isn't there is not entirely accurate, but the issue is that you are generally just plonked there without having to make the journey. Thunderhead being a classic example where suddenly everyone in the World is instantly there and ahead of us in almost no time.

I get we have tech like waypoints and asura gates which will artificially shrunk the World, but one of the important things about this type of fantasy is the journeying, the exploring and the feel of the World. The team are prob the best I've seen at creating map stories, but that true feel of distance, adventure,...it's kinda gone with the advent of Living World. Mounts haven't really degredated the experience much for me except maybe the skyscale, but I can either not use it or use it in a different enough way that it can still feel like exploring

GW1 had a huge number of flaws, but your journey through the World was never one of them

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Yeah, I agree, exploration was always my favorite part of GW1, and GW2 is...less thrilling.

I will say that I still love exploring new maps for the first time, and generally I'm entertained and satisfied with new maps as they come out, but I guess from the point of the view of exploration, there's not like...a huge reason to care? For example, world completion in core feels really satisfying and it was a genuine journey, but beyond the achievements you get for HoT and PoF the 1st time you explore a map (not even 'total expansion completion') fully there's not a huge incentive to care about exploration.

It's even more disappointing as the team has switched over to LW focused releases over expansions as there's even less exploration-centered achievements and goals.

Idk, there's so much other stuff to do it's hard for me to be -too- upset about it, but it has been disappointing.

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I love the way GW2 implemented mounts, but they totally destroyed the sense of exploration for me. Maps are incredibly detailed in this game, but I can't look at the detail if I'm flying with a thousand miles per hour on my gryphon.I'm also a huge fan of jumping puzzles (although I totally get why some people don't enjoy them), but with gliders and mounts they became totally obsolete.

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@Reverielle.3972 said:Often overlooked, but what exploration there was in the game (and there was quite a bit in the beginning) has in part gone due to mounts and gliders too: There is just hardly any thrill or fear of falling or death or otherwise from wandering about anymore. Nothing like the original zones, with all the wonderful jumping puzzles etc etc. It's fundamentally down to risk v reward; no risk, no reward. Mounts and gliders are great, but they've made things too easy and taken away almost completely that aspect of play; exploration.

@Maikimaik.1974 said:I love the way GW2 implemented mounts, but they totally destroyed the sense of exploration for me. Maps are incredibly detailed in this game, but I can't look at the detail if I'm flying with a thousand miles per hour on my gryphon.

But... mounts are completely optional, at least for core maps. Some of the challenge in post-mount maps could be going places without using them?

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@kharmin.7683 said:

@Reverielle.3972 said:Often overlooked, but what exploration there was in the game (and there was quite a bit in the beginning) has in part gone due to mounts and gliders too: There is just hardly any thrill or fear of falling or death or otherwise from wandering about anymore. Nothing like the original zones, with all the wonderful jumping puzzles etc etc. It's fundamentally down to risk v reward; no risk, no reward. Mounts and gliders are great, but they've made things too easy and taken away almost completely that aspect of play; exploration.

@Maikimaik.1974 said:I love the way GW2 implemented mounts, but they totally destroyed the sense of exploration for me. Maps are incredibly detailed in this game, but I can't look at the detail if I'm flying with a thousand miles per hour on my gryphon.

But... mounts are completely optional, at least for core maps. Some of the challenge in post-mount maps could be going places without using them?

Yeah but by now I'm so used to the speed of mounts I can't imagine having to slowly walk again.

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@Maikimaik.1974 said:

@Reverielle.3972 said:Often overlooked, but what exploration there was in the game (and there was quite a bit in the beginning) has in part gone due to mounts and gliders too: There is just hardly any thrill or fear of falling or death or otherwise from wandering about anymore. Nothing like the original zones, with all the wonderful jumping puzzles etc etc. It's fundamentally down to risk v reward; no risk, no reward. Mounts and gliders are great, but they've made things too easy and taken away almost completely that aspect of play; exploration.

@Maikimaik.1974 said:I love the way GW2 implemented mounts, but they totally destroyed the sense of exploration for me. Maps are incredibly detailed in this game, but I can't look at the detail if I'm flying with a thousand miles per hour on my gryphon.

But... mounts are completely optional, at least for core maps. Some of the challenge in post-mount maps could be going places without using them?

Yeah but by now I'm so used to the speed of mounts I can't imagine having to slowly walk again.

I get it and I agree; however, using mounts as an excuse for not exploring (or saying that exploring is missing from the game) ...? Not saying you specifically, but more the general tenor of the thread with regards to mounts and exploring.

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I actually have a very positive opinion of mounts in relation to exploration.

Especially in HoT with it's vertical layers, exploring them with the Springer, Griffon, and Skyscale made hard to reach places much more accessible to me, and I've been able to enjoy them a lot more.

Well...I guess exploring them on foot the first time was fun too, but there's an interesting difference between the chaos of exploring HoT on foot/with glider and the freedom of flying around or scaling vines with the Springer.

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I was sort of disappointed at the start of the game with portals to each major city. I mean I can see why they did it so people on different races can play together at level 2 but there were some really meaningful long journeys in Guild Wars. I still remember running my Ritualist from Lion’s Arch to Ascalon. You had to run your char through a lot of maps, fighting mobs the whole way. Not a journey you did on a whim. It actually felt disappointing to eazy peazy go through a portal in LA and immediately be in The Black Citadel. Really changed the scale of the world.

(I may be wrong on the exact route, it been about 9 years)Lion’s archNorth Kryta ProvinceScoundrel’s RiseGriffin’s mouthDeldrimor bowlAnvil RockBorlis passTraveler’s Vale (go NE to get Yak’s Bend then head back south)Ascalon FoothillsDiessa LowlandsThe BreachOld AscalonAscalon City

Here’s a map of GW2 with the maps of Guild Wars overlaid so you can see the journey. You can only get to another map where there is a portal (a white swirl icon).

Then add the runs to get to where the other racial cities now are.

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@Maikimaik.1974 said:I love the way GW2 implemented mounts, but they totally destroyed the sense of exploration for me. Maps are incredibly detailed in this game, but I can't look at the detail if I'm flying with a thousand miles per hour on my gryphon.I'm also a huge fan of jumping puzzles (although I totally get why some people don't enjoy them), but with gliders and mounts they became totally obsolete.

huh? you can land almost anywhere to see every detail. I use mounts to see places in the game that I cant see on foot. I explore often.

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@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:I was sort of disappointed at the start of the game with portals to each major city. I mean I can see why they did it so people on different races can play together at level 2 but there were some really meaningful long journeys in Guild Wars. I still remember running my Ritualist from Lion’s Arch to Ascalon. You had to run your char through a lot of maps, fighting mobs the whole way. Not a journey you did on a whim. It actually felt disappointing to eazy peazy go through a portal in LA and immediately be in The Black Citadel. Really changed the scale of the world.

(I may be wrong on the exact route, it been about 9 years)Lion’s archNorth Kryta ProvinceScoundrel’s RiseGriffin’s mouthDeldrimor bowlAnvil RockBorlis passTraveler’s Vale (go NE to get Yak’s Bend then head back south)Ascalon FoothillsDiessa LowlandsThe BreachOld AscalonAscalon City

Here’s a map of GW2 with the maps of Guild Wars overlaid so you can see the journey. You can only get to another map where there is a portal (a white swirl icon).

Then add the runs to get to where the other racial cities now are.

I used to try and fail the Droks Run. I was never very good at taking down all the monk mobs and bosses until very late in the game

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@Reverielle.3972 said:Often overlooked, but what exploration there was in the game (and there was quite a bit in the beginning) has in part gone due to mounts and gliders too: There is just hardly any thrill or fear of falling or death or otherwise from wandering about anymore. Nothing like the original zones, with all the wonderful jumping puzzles etc etc. It's fundamentally down to risk v reward; no risk, no reward. Mounts and gliders are great, but they've made things too easy and taken away almost completely that aspect of play; exploration.

This, I thought the OP would say about the actual exploration of the maps...as a vetetan player who allready did map comp a few to many times is whatever, but seeing new players flying around on raptors is kind sad lol they missing cool dialogues between NPCs, events, JPs, so much stuff that makes GW2 exploration just that much better then other games, they just jumping around on raptors to point A to B, and then to C, and so on...hell even new maps, getting into vistas and POIs is kind boring right now, just jump on your Skyscale and thats it, unless is some secret stuff like the Ash Legion base on the new map...i dont know, Mounts are cool, dont get me wrong, but they killed a lot of the exploration side of the game.

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@"Konrad Curze.5130" said:Tbh that was something that always bothered me every time I log into an alt.

"woah commander, your big business, you killed 3 elder dragons and a God!"

I feel like my alts should reply:

"yeah, about that, I'm not even half close to killing Zhaitan let alone the rest, you know... I'm here just doing tourism. And what is a commander? You must be mistakening me for someone else"

I like to think of my toons as members of the same guild, who all worked together to bring about events. And since they are separate individuals, each playthrough is being told from each individual's perspective. They are all really the commander (with my Asura really believing he's in charge), but in my world they really are all on the same journey.

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@Randulf.7614 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:I was sort of disappointed at the start of the game with portals to each major city. I mean I can see why they did it so people on different races can play together at level 2 but there were some really meaningful long journeys in Guild Wars. I still remember running my Ritualist from Lion’s Arch to Ascalon. You had to run your char through a lot of maps, fighting mobs the whole way. Not a journey you did on a whim. It actually felt disappointing to eazy peazy go through a portal in LA and immediately be in The Black Citadel. Really changed the scale of the world.

(I may be wrong on the exact route, it been about 9 years)Lion’s archNorth Kryta ProvinceScoundrel’s RiseGriffin’s mouthDeldrimor bowlAnvil RockBorlis passTraveler’s Vale (go NE to get Yak’s Bend then head back south)Ascalon FoothillsDiessa LowlandsThe BreachOld AscalonAscalon City

. You can only get to another map where there is a portal (a white swirl icon).

Then add the runs to get to where the other racial cities now are.

I used to try and fail the Droks Run. I was never very good at taking down all the monk mobs and bosses until very late in the game

I remember that one.

Take my group of Mercenaries and Heroes to Beacon’s Perch. Go through the Portal. Encounter first group of mobs. Die ignominiously. Rinse and repeat, until I pay a runner to take me to Droknar’s.

Fun time. lol.

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@Maikimaik.1974 said:I love the way GW2 implemented mounts, but they totally destroyed the sense of exploration for me. Maps are incredibly detailed in this game, but I can't look at the detail if I'm flying with a thousand miles per hour on my gryphon.I'm also a huge fan of jumping puzzles (although I totally get why some people don't enjoy them), but with gliders and mounts they became totally obsolete.

Usually, there are no fly zones around JPs...

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Exploring is what you make of it. Always has been. If you won't stop for a second to smell the roses then it's your fault. Anet still makes every corner of the game as interesting as possible with little stories and quest chains, npc dialogue and whatnot. Complaints like "But I have mounts now!" is like refusing to walk or take the bike anywhere cause you have a car.

Also, I find it funny when people praise the Droknar run from GW1 as exploration when it was just a short cut to get to the endgame armour and a way to skip two thirds of Prophecies.

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@Felipe.1807 said:

@Reverielle.3972 said:Often overlooked, but what exploration there was in the game (and there was quite a bit in the beginning) has in part gone due to mounts and gliders too: There is just hardly any thrill or fear of falling or death or otherwise from wandering about anymore. Nothing like the original zones, with all the wonderful jumping puzzles etc etc. It's fundamentally down to risk v reward; no risk, no reward. Mounts and gliders are great, but they've made things too easy and taken away almost completely that aspect of play; exploration.

This, I thought the OP would say about the actual exploration of the maps...as a vetetan player who allready did map comp a few to many times is whatever, but seeing new players flying around on raptors is kind sad lol they missing cool dialogues between NPCs, events, JPs, so much stuff that makes GW2 exploration just that much better then other games, they just jumping around on raptors to point A to B, and then to C, and so on...hell even new maps, getting into vistas and POIs is kind boring right now, just jump on your Skyscale and thats it, unless is some secret stuff like the Ash Legion base on the new map...i dont know, Mounts are cool, dont get me wrong, but they killed a lot of the exploration side of the game.

This, old vistas used to require you to jumping puzzle up, and at least if you go back to those maps that option is still there. In all the new maps most vistas are only reachable via springer or sky scale, which really takes away a lot of the exploration.

I miss the days of the pre glider too, missing a jump and falling was a danger, now you just flip open the glider and you’re good.

I think it’d be nice to see some more areas out in the game where the glider and mounts are disabled, not like a small singular jumping puzzle area but like a section of a map sort of thing. Could be fun to play around if done well.

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This is a huge issue that pof introduced. Mounts are great for convenience, but terrible for gameplay. I remember in the core game people actually had separate builds for just running around with perma swiftness, leaps/movements skills etc. Now you can literally just jump over any threat with next to no risk. Gliding can be great if maps are designed accordingly, but mounts just trivialize an entire part of the game.

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@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:This is a huge issue that pof introduced. Mounts are great for convenience, but terrible for gameplay. I remember in the core game people actually had separate builds for just running around with perma swiftness, leaps/movements skills etc. Now you can literally just jump over any threat with next to no risk. Gliding can be great if maps are designed accordingly, but mounts just trivialize an entire part of the game.

Trivialize for whom? If you don't want to run around with a mount, then don't. I will often do so in low- and mid-level core maps. Other players on mounts don't affect my playing of the game.

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