Difficulty of Raids - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Difficulty of Raids

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  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    This is 100% opinion (as is pretty much everything on these forums) - but I firmly believe that raids in their current form in GW2 are not sustainable. Without broader appeal, it doesn't make sense to dedicate more resources to them, meaning - at most - you will see three new raids every two years - and that will result in a loss of interest by the hardcore community.

    Right now, almost no one is happy with the state of raids - including hard core raiders. Implementing tiered difficulties is as much about making sure the hard modes survive and flourish in the game as it is about providing an experience for the more story-oriented players. Expanding the audience for the content would justify additional investment in the content - it really is the only path forward for this game mode, imo.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    I disagree. I don't think the amount of players who are not interested in raids currently would be magically interested in raids if they were easier is very big.

    I think the biggest group of players not interested in raids would remain uninterested in raids no matter their difficulty. Ths current strike mission, which is basically a raid boss in super super easy, is a perfect example of where easy raid rewards would be. Even for that mission, some less skilled players have issues completing it. The skill ceiling drops infinately low.

    Are you serious here? That so called "boss" can raise problems to someone? LoL? Or to cry? That .... creature is weaker than a Fractal Boss. Even the Spider Queen in Kessex Hills can be more dangerous. If ANet seriously considered that this strike can be something as a stepping stone for raids, then they made a mistake. But I don't think that the players struggling with the strike are so vocal in asking to lower the Raids difficulty.

    In my opinion not the difficulty of the raid itself (mechanics / attack values from enemy) is making the people to stay away. But the fact that many, many, many casuals cannot find another 9 casuals to try a raid when they have time to play. The 10 man composition of the raid is the main problem.

    So, I agree with you here - even by lowering the difficulty of the raids you won't make too many players interested to raid. Unless ANet will change the format - to 5 man teams.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Are you serious here? That so called "boss" can raise problems to someone?

    Yes, some players actually have problems with it.
    I've had a group once that failed to kill it.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2019

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    I disagree. I don't think the amount of players who are not interested in raids currently would be magically interested in raids if they were easier is very big.

    I think the biggest group of players not interested in raids would remain uninterested in raids no matter their difficulty. Ths current strike mission, which is basically a raid boss in super super easy, is a perfect example of where easy raid rewards would be. Even for that mission, some less skilled players have issues completing it. The skill ceiling drops infinately low.

    Are you serious here? That so called "boss" can raise problems to someone? LoL? Or to cry? That .... creature is weaker than a Fractal Boss. Even the Spider Queen in Kessex Hills can be more dangerous.

    I joined a squad yesterday and 8 of 10 players went downstate after the plateau mechanic. Another player and me were saving the run...I don't need to mention I had a glass cannon build. So yeah, people can definitely wipe here but I really don't know how.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    I disagree. I don't think the amount of players who are not interested in raids currently would be magically interested in raids if they were easier is very big.

    I think the biggest group of players not interested in raids would remain uninterested in raids no matter their difficulty. Ths current strike mission, which is basically a raid boss in super super easy, is a perfect example of where easy raid rewards would be. Even for that mission, some less skilled players have issues completing it. The skill ceiling drops infinately low.

    Are you serious here? That so called "boss" can raise problems to someone? LoL?

    I’ve been in groups where someone manages to get themself into downstate within 15 seconds of starting the boss. There are also a lot of people that just eat the damage rather than mitigate/avoid it. There’s also the wave(s) at the end that people don’t avoid and end up getting downed from.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    Why not, so long as the rewards are toned down as well?

    I have no issue so long long as the following are met:

    • Doesn’t pull any resources which ends up delaying content
    • No achievement/collection progression
    • No LI/LD rewards
    • No unique boss drops (e.g. infusions, miniatures, skins) although I’d make an exception for ascended armor/weapons so those starting out in exotics can upgrade to ascended through raids.

    Essentially the mode is there for them to experience the content and “train”.

    Which just shows why raiding content (or any sort of decent PvE, really) and a game that has zero gear progression don't really mix.

    As for the whole resource expenditure, I don't know how ANet designs their encounters but from what the raid design team in WoW has said, after you create an encounter and test it, you can gauge where it is in the difficulty curve and add/remove mechanics to create the other difficulties. So it's a bit of an organic process to have several difficulties.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    This is 100% opinion (as is pretty much everything on these forums) - but I firmly believe that raids in their current form in GW2 are not sustainable. Without broader appeal, it doesn't make sense to dedicate more resources to them, meaning - at most - you will see three new raids every two years - and that will result in a loss of interest by the hardcore community.

    Right now, almost no one is happy with the state of raids - including hard core raiders. Implementing tiered difficulties is as much about making sure the hard modes survive and flourish in the game as it is about providing an experience for the more story-oriented players. Expanding the audience for the content would justify additional investment in the content - it really is the only path forward for this game mode, imo.

    The question is how much broader the appeal will be with the addition of tiered difficulties, keep in mind that not everyone likes running instanced content. We see arguments about making Raids for "everyone" or the "majority" yet I seriously doubt any amount of easy modes will do that. Everyone and majority are very strong words, especially considering the Guild Wars 2 playerbase and instanced content.

    I believe the first Strike Mission has such a low difficulty level to identify the upper limit of the instanced content population. It's gonna be Total = R (raiders who run it at least once) + X (the non-raiders interested in instanced content). And since they are calling them "stepping stones for Raids" the next number to identify is how many of that X turn into R over time. Those two metrics will make decisions about future Raid design clearer/easier.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bobzitto.8571 said:
    As for the whole resource expenditure, I don't know how ANet designs their encounters but from what the raid design team in WoW has said, after you create an encounter and test it, you can gauge where it is in the difficulty curve and add/remove mechanics to create the other difficulties.

    That's how a lot of the Raids work in Guild Wars 2, even within the same encounter, it will escalate and get more mechanics as the fight progresses. And challenge motes add extra mechanics on top. The most effortless way of adding more modes is by using the encounter itself and "stop" the fight at an early stage. For example, the Vale Guardian before the first split is a very easy experience, even first time training groups can manage it. "Stopping" the fight at that point equals an easy mode with very little (hopefully) development effort.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Bobzitto.8571 said:
    As for the whole resource expenditure, I don't know how ANet designs their encounters but from what the raid design team in WoW has said, after you create an encounter and test it, you can gauge where it is in the difficulty curve and add/remove mechanics to create the other difficulties.

    That's how a lot of the Raids work in Guild Wars 2, even within the same encounter, it will escalate and get more mechanics as the fight progresses. And challenge motes add extra mechanics on top. The most effortless way of adding more modes is by using the encounter itself and "stop" the fight at an early stage. For example, the Vale Guardian before the first split is a very easy experience, even first time training groups can manage it. "Stopping" the fight at that point equals an easy mode with very little (hopefully) development effort.

    Come to think of it, that is actually a very good idea. I had never thought of actually cutting fights short as training. Not sure how complex this would be code wise, but it would make testing and training possible.

    Just cut all fights to the first 1rd or half of their normal duration.

    I still don't think this would be a wise implementation of resources but at least this might be easier than redesigning the entire fight.

    As a bonus, maybe have the bosses available in the training area as holograms. Make players aware of the training golem AND implement this lore wise in a sensible manner.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    This is 100% opinion (as is pretty much everything on these forums) - but I firmly believe that raids in their current form in GW2 are not sustainable. Without broader appeal, it doesn't make sense to dedicate more resources to them, meaning - at most - you will see three new raids every two years - and that will result in a loss of interest by the hardcore community.

    Right now, almost no one is happy with the state of raids - including hard core raiders. Implementing tiered difficulties is as much about making sure the hard modes survive and flourish in the game as it is about providing an experience for the more story-oriented players. Expanding the audience for the content would justify additional investment in the content - it really is the only path forward for this game mode, imo.

    The question is how much broader the appeal will be with the addition of tiered difficulties, keep in mind that not everyone likes running instanced content. We see arguments about making Raids for "everyone" or the "majority" yet I seriously doubt any amount of easy modes will do that. Everyone and majority are very strong words, especially considering the Guild Wars 2 playerbase and instanced content.

    I believe the first Strike Mission has such a low difficulty level to identify the upper limit of the instanced content population. It's gonna be Total = R (raiders who run it at least once) + X (the non-raiders interested in instanced content). And since they are calling them "stepping stones for Raids" the next number to identify is how many of that X turn into R over time. Those two metrics will make decisions about future Raid design clearer/easier.

    I agree that you can never make them for "everyone," nor should they try. The point is to expand the appeal beyond what we have today - to justify greater investment. If they don't, they might as well scrap them now. In their current model (content and delivery time), I don't think they are sustainable (again, 100% opinion).

    The problem with the first Strike Mission isn't its difficulty - it is its simplicity. It might as well be an open world encounter. That fight definitely is not a "stepping stone" to raiding. To provide a stepping stone to raiding, they need to use actual raid mechanics - just at a lower intensity or by adding them gradually to a fight (cutting out the more punishing at lower levels to let players master the easier ones first - stepping stones). The best way to accomplish that would obviously be to use actual raid fights - scaled to a lower difficulty (a lower step on the approach to the top - stepping stones). I think strike missions have potential, but will only be successful if they too scale - including actual mechanics and tiered difficulty to bring in actual raiders. In other words, in their current iteration, they will suffer from the same issue raids have - only appealing to a tiny percentage of the player base. Expand them through difficulty tiers and you not only create "stepping stones" - you give raiders something to do between larger raid releases.

  • Bla bla bla, you learn the highest tier difficulty by playing that difficulty.

    I am doing alot of raids in final fantasy. Very often when I ask tanks at the easy raids yo what skills are the tankbusters and for which ones do you need to swap agro they dont know. Then you go into savage and everyone knows. Because in savage you get killed and in normal raids you can ignore mechanics.

    If I can clear savage raids in FF by joining horrible practice groups and me getting flamed and kicked quite often, but also making friends in the end and progressing, I am sure almost anyone can do it in the friendly gw2 community.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    Bla bla bla, you learn the highest tier difficulty by playing that difficulty.

    I am doing alot of raids in final fantasy. Very often when I ask tanks at the easy raids yo what skills are the tankbusters and for which ones do you need to swap agro they dont know. Then you go into savage and everyone knows. Because in savage you get killed and in normal raids you can ignore mechanics.

    Not entirely. The earlier-expac normal modes, sure (but see below). You outgear them heavily, and you can get away with ignoring a lot of stuff. Eden normal however? Try to do one of them with tanks that have no idea what's going on and it's a real kittenshow. And even in alexander and omega there are some fights where, heavily outgeared as you are, not knowing mechanics will kill you.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Bobzitto.8571 said:
    As for the whole resource expenditure, I don't know how ANet designs their encounters but from what the raid design team in WoW has said, after you create an encounter and test it, you can gauge where it is in the difficulty curve and add/remove mechanics to create the other difficulties.

    That's how a lot of the Raids work in Guild Wars 2, even within the same encounter, it will escalate and get more mechanics as the fight progresses. And challenge motes add extra mechanics on top. The most effortless way of adding more modes is by using the encounter itself and "stop" the fight at an early stage. For example, the Vale Guardian before the first split is a very easy experience, even first time training groups can manage it. "Stopping" the fight at that point equals an easy mode with very little (hopefully) development effort.

    Come to think of it, that is actually a very good idea. I had never thought of actually cutting fights short as training. Not sure how complex this would be code wise, but it would make testing and training possible.

    Just cut all fights to the first 1rd or half of their normal duration.

    I still don't think this would be a wise implementation of resources but at least this might be easier than redesigning the entire fight.

    As a bonus, maybe have the bosses available in the training area as holograms. Make players aware of the training golem AND implement this lore wise in a sensible manner.

    Sooooo.... Let's return back to my original suggestion while taking out a few of the points raised against it.

    My 'easy mode' was suggested as 'the same fights with less mechanics.' nearly the same as, 'cutting the fight short'... Both good suggestions I think. Adding a CM to easy mode changing the boss to normal, is good because training groups can do the bosses they are trained on at normal difficulty.

    Strike missions are not easy mode raids. The point of an 'easy mode' is that it's the same encounter. Not an entirely different experience.

    But I also suggested hard mode, to give experienced raiders a more challenging mode, with higher rate of rewards.

    Note that both modes would need to be introduced for my idea to work. (for more details read OP)

    As for Anet development staff not being available for this... That's the furthest thing from our problem.

    If we have good ideas, and the community likes them, it's up to Anet to get it done. Don't put the cart before the horse worrying about what they do and don't have resources to do while you are wishlisting.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    Bla bla bla, you learn the highest tier difficulty by playing that difficulty.

    I am doing alot of raids in final fantasy. Very often when I ask tanks at the easy raids yo what skills are the tankbusters and for which ones do you need to swap agro they dont know. Then you go into savage and everyone knows. Because in savage you get killed and in normal raids you can ignore mechanics.

    Not entirely. The earlier-expac normal modes, sure (but see below). You outgear them heavily, and you can get away with ignoring a lot of stuff. Eden normal however? Try to do one of them with tanks that have no idea what's going on and it's a real kittenshow. And even in alexander and omega there are some fights where, heavily outgeared as you are, not knowing mechanics will kill you.

    I can queue on my 435 gunbreaker and not have a single tank swap and complete it. Look at gw2, I find regular 100 more difficult than the cms.

    Let's say I do 100cm, would I rather have someone that has 20 hours on regular 100 or someone that did nothing in regular but practiced 1 hour in cm ?

    I rather have someone skip 1-75 in fractals and start with a regular t4 group.

    Look tiers are great for offering different intensities for similar content. It's great to know that there are more challenges ahead. But I dont believe low lv tiers really prepare you for the higher difficulties.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    If we have good ideas, and the community likes them, it's up to Anet to get it done. Don't put the cart before the horse worrying about what they do and don't have resources to do while you are wishlisting.

    We just need to be careful not to end with another template debacle, and people saying that if we don;t like what we'll get, we shouldn't have been mentioning any wishes.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    If we have good ideas, and the community likes them, it's up to Anet to get it done. Don't put the cart before the horse worrying about what they do and don't have resources to do while you are wishlisting.

    We just need to be careful not to end with another template debacle, and people saying that if we don;t like what we'll get, we shouldn't have been mentioning any wishes.

    This is true.

    What's sad to me is the character of the debate.

    Group a) wants easier raids, for more folks to get involved. Where group b) doesn't want welfare gamers getting all the loot they got the hard way. When anyone says, 'we should have an easy mode' group b descends from the rafters to explain how anyone playing easier raids would ruin thier lives. Group a, however has been talking about this for a long time.

    If you ask group a, why do you want easier raids? They'll answer, "I want more people to be able to learn." "Or, I want raids I can do more casually." but really, they just recognize kitten-hole behavior when they see it, and they want a reduction of elitism.

    Why is there elitism? Because the content is hard. (queue the deluge of "this game isn't hard lolz! L2P get gud nuub!") and because it's hard, people who are good at it don't want thier time wasted. So they boot anyone not up to snuff. OK, fine. I don't want my time wasted either. I've been know to boot a clueless Joe every once and awhile.

    So, now you have this comparatively huge group of players, where the difficulty of then raid, is LESS than the difficulty of finding a group. So despite wanting to raid, these folks never do. (queue the deluge of, 'you can use LFG yourself' 'just use discord' etc...) because they don't have the time to find groups, to learn the content, so they can stop wasting time. (queue for the next deluge of 'but I did it the hard way, don't make it easy for those whiny welfare-gamers!')

    So, every attempt to address this issue, ends up upsetting one of either group.

    Even my attempt, to walk the middle line, didn't even make a dent in the deeply entrenched OPINIONS of everyone involved... They just decided to use my thread about a specific change.... To rehash all the old reasons why. We even got into 'how well staffed is Anet and can they handle patching thier game, and let's only make hypothetical suggestions we feel they are capable of.'

    Jeez.

    Go reread OP. With an open mind.

    Instead of seeing one tiny pebble and letting it derail the train, try to focus on the big picture.

    I don't necessarily think I have the best answer. But I do have a clear view of the problem... Which, most of the arguments here and elsewhere show, is a rarity. When a bridge is broken, hire an engineer. Why? You need someone who understands why it broke, long before you call the welding and concrete folks. Just saying.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    Well fine. Nevertheless your topic was discussed thousands and thousand times before like the first reply already told you and all that with no reaction from Arenanet but "raids are and will be our most challenging content in the game and therefore we have no plans in making easier modes at the moment."
    So, what do you expect from another/your thread? As a customer you can vote with your wallet, that's all you got. And although I'm repeating myself that the reasonable members of this subforum already stated that they are ok with easier modes under certain conditions we still don't have any change at all. It's definitely Arenanet and their resources who are the bottleneck otherwise we would see a better communication for the whole game, more additional content in terms of fractals and raids and I'm sure more tiers/possibilities of easier access and most certainly distinct raid tiers.
    I've been here since 2013 (even if it was a different forum) and I painfully remember the long content drought for the whole game and especially for instanced content. It was a desaster to see dungeons being abandoned, very few official statements, the "dungeon debugging initiative debacle" which lead to an incredible frustration of the sub community and often to not having hope any longer.
    Man, it's not the community holding Arenanet back, it's them and a lot of ignorance and/or incompetence at the management & leading level since I'm sure players were not the first ones with the idea of different tier levels for raids or other ideas which could possibly improve the game.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • I see your point. And I understand the frustration.

    To me, forums are a place to discuss the game. I don't really think Anet combs over these conversations picking out the gems. Like, the one time Anet listened to me, is when they broke the confusion condition in PvE, and even then... They didn't listen to me I was just the loudest, most annoying person who didn't give a kitten about complaining in public... And a huge number of folks commented on the thread. And even then, they didn't do what I, or most of the rest of that thread, wanted.

    So, I just want to discuss how to find the theoretical perfect creamy center. If folks own apathy and lost hope causes them to get away from the conversation of ideas? Well... Nothing I can do but remind everyone that 'constantly sipping from your glass eventually causes it it be half empty.' then try to reframe the discussion around what liquid is in the glass vs, what should be in the glass...

    I opened this thread trying to find a middle path. I was trying to have a diffrent discussion.

    My idea had easy mode raids as a component. Not the whole thing. And the idea is worthless with only half of it in play. So, everyone who read that, and decided this thread has been done before... They saw a glass full of water, declared it half empty, and never leaned down to smell the vodka.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    I disagree I think everything is on the table - still.
    With this thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18677/do-raids-need-easy-normal-hard-difficulty-mode-merged/p1
    I can totally understand to bump this and to make new ones with similar topics but differentiation and I'm fine with it.

    And no, I'm not frustrated I just have a realistic view about their philosophy and their action regarding certain content. This view is not directed towards PvE alone. Just have a look at the PvP section and the WvW section - both suffered heavily over the years and still don't get enough attention at all.
    Your protest against confusion damage in PvE is nothing compared to change or differentiate content when we speak about developer resources and more. But even if the community is loud and constructive we won't see a different approach because they just can't. They would have to stop their release cycles which were already heavily late although estimated differently and adjust the structures once again in the case that we will see less LS content but more or altered instanced content. But: This is not their overall philosophy. Their path is the one of the LS - now called "Saga" which literally is old wine in new skins.
    We would need a complete overhaul of their company structure and that my dear is not going to happen - ever.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Well fine. Nevertheless your topic was discussed thousands and thousand times before like the first reply already told you and all that with no reaction from Arenanet but "raids are and will be our most challenging content in the game and therefore we have no plans in making easier modes at the moment."

    Notice though, that in their last interview their stance wasn't as rigid anymore. The problem no longer is raids remaining "the most challenging content in the game". It is now finding a way to do it without too negatively impacting raid release schedule. That's a massive change in attitude. Even if the end result so far is the same.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Well fine. Nevertheless your topic was discussed thousands and thousand times before like the first reply already told you and all that with no reaction from Arenanet but "raids are and will be our most challenging content in the game and therefore we have no plans in making easier modes at the moment."

    Notice though, that in their last interview their stance wasn't as rigid anymore. The problem no longer is raids remaining "the most challenging content in the game". It is now finding a way to do it without too negatively impacting raid release schedule. That's a massive change in attitude. Even if the end result so far is the same.

    I'm aware of that but regardless we got the introduction of strike missions which will heavily fail in my opinion due to several reasons we discussed before. On a serious note I would rather have the existent raids as an easy mode than this new "creation". I mean, they don't need to re-invent the wheel just take a proper look at the 7 wings. I don't mind development resources any longer because let's be real the serious raid community already abandoned the sunken sinking ship. The template debacle is a different thing but comes on top of all the things happened this year so far. I really wish they would focus on content which means bringing out the next episode asap with their new team structure and further ones faster, hand out an easy raid mode for the casual crowd, abandon further raids officially because unofficially they already have with these long release cycles and focus on fractals as shorter quarterly tiered content. Last but not least continue to design the shinies for the gem store to get enough revenues. As it stands for now I cannot imagine they'll survive the actual strategy for a very long time.
    Revenues were looking decent but with no expansion on the horizon and only free episodes of the Saga this will decrease a lot. It's unlikely that the templates and their financial outcome will be successful + a good amount of players, namely the raiding crowd will not invest. They rather leave the game or have left around the ERP.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I disagree I think everything is on the table - still.
    With this thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18677/do-raids-need-easy-normal-hard-difficulty-mode-merged/p1
    I can totally understand to bump this and to make new ones with similar topics but differentiation and I'm fine with it.

    And no, I'm not frustrated I just have a realistic view about their philosophy and their action regarding certain content. This view is not directed towards PvE alone. Just have a look at the PvP section and the WvW section - both suffered heavily over the years and still don't get enough attention at all.
    Your protest against confusion damage in PvE is nothing compared to change or differentiate content when we speak about developer resources and more. But even if the community is loud and constructive we won't see a different approach because they just can't. They would have to stop their release cycles which were already heavily late although estimated differently and adjust the structures once again in the case that we will see less LS content but more or altered instanced content. But: This is not their overall philosophy. Their path is the one of the LS - now called "Saga" which literally is old wine in new skins.
    We would need a complete overhaul of their company structure and that my dear is not going to happen - ever.

    I think we imagine an impossible monster inside Anet. If they decide something is a good idea, they'll get it done. We worry, and doubt what they can do, yet we all still play thier game. The doubt of Anet is exactly like doubting plate tectonics in the earth's crust. Just because it moves so little each year as to be barely measurable, doesn't mean that it's not moving.

    We can say that the balance in game, is better now than its ever been. And I don't think it's fair to fault them for 'not working hard enough' the way we do, when we question how the managers lay out development teams or allocate projects.

    The fact is, that IF they will take anything from a thread, it's not going to be because we were complaining. As far as I can tell, it will be if it's an insightful idea they didn't think of, and not because of somebody's hurt feelings.

    Anet may want to solve hurt feelings, like I do, because I like Anet, want a better community. But they may not know how in certain circumstances. (see WvW and sPvP, as prime examples. Every nerf, even rightly called for... cough Rev hammer cough gets met with a deluge of butt hurt. Which is a gross image.)

    So, while I don't know game design and math, I do know people, psychology, and the 'why's behind certain actions. Things most suggestions gloss over. Most suggestions say something like "we should change x so I can feel better". And it's easy to mistrust suggestions that feel like that. But, "we should change x, because I observe others having a bad time" gets ignored, because "changing that, doesn't help me, why would you do that?" and most people aren't interested in sacrificing even a tiny shred of thier own fun, for someone else's fun. But what can I say, I played player two on my own Nintendo, and spent time watching my friends play on my console as a kid. Why? Making folks happy, is in an of itself, a form of fun. So theorizing how to repair the suffering of others? Totally my bag.

    And in fairness, and to show my blind spots... I shouldn't be pitching a plan to modify behaviors, to the very people whose behavior I'm trying to modify. But I couldn't just stick it in the PvP fourms, nobody would read it.

  • Rhiannon.1726Rhiannon.1726 Member ✭✭✭

    The problem of threads like this is that there is a huge variety of opinions how easy it should get. Just look at the strike mission. Nearly everyone is complaining that it is too easy.

    The OP said „Easy mode- reduced mechanics and dps check…”
    Let’s use this for Escort, MO and even Cairn:
    There is no relevant dps check (though I don’t know what happens at MO if you reach enrage) so you’d have to remove one mechanic (or make it less deadly) -> you’ll get an open world escort event or a dps golem with the difficulty level of the strike mission.
    Who would be happy about that?

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    I think we imagine an impossible monster inside Anet. If they decide something is a good idea, they'll get it done.

    And still, we get build templates in a very inferior design compared to a tool that comes from one single developer. Additionally this feature was asked for years ago. In the german forums we were asking the community manager - he doesn't exist any longer - before HoT about build templates. He told us: We need to be convinced to have good stuff to implement it. On reddit this theme was present every day over the years but they started to develop it late 2017.
    Anet is just out of touch with the community which several examples have shown in the past. They don't like to comment officially on reddit, their social media competence looks like being rudimentary. Best example was the Deroir and JP thing. It's also ridiculous that they have never used market research or at least ingame community polls. So, overall they are almost fishing in the dark because you never know from the forums if there's a minority complaining or not. They cannot know stuff for sure - that's not how you rule a successful (gaming) company in 2k19.

    We worry, and doubt what they can do, yet we all still play thier game. The doubt of Anet is exactly like doubting plate tectonics in the earth's crust. Just because it moves so little each year as to be barely measurable, doesn't mean that it's not moving.

    Hmm, I don't know. I'm playing but not as much as in the past and the most important thing: I haven't spend any money this year and after the recent announcements which are: no expansions but Icebrood Saga, the template fraud (it's fraud for me, sorry) and MO leaving the company as the last founder of Arenanet I'm not going to give any credit. My casual companions are long gone, from my raid static 2 additional players are playing at the moment and both don't spend money as well.
    I need to be convinced that their strategy will be successful because from a professional business perspective it's lights out soon.

    We can say that the balance in game, is better now than its ever been. And I don't think it's fair to fault them for 'not working hard enough' the way we do, when we question how the managers lay out development teams or allocate projects.

    I don't care about balance if there's no interesting content to play but looking into the gem shop.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • BrokenGlass.9356BrokenGlass.9356 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @Rhiannon.1726 said:
    The problem of threads like this is that there is a huge variety of opinions how easy it should get. Just look at the strike mission. Nearly everyone is complaining that it is too easy.

    The OP said „Easy mode- reduced mechanics and dps check…”
    Let’s use this for Escort, MO and even Cairn:
    There is no relevant dps check (though I don’t know what happens at MO if you reach enrage) so you’d have to remove one mechanic (or make it less deadly) -> you’ll get an open world escort event or a dps golem with the difficulty level of the strike mission.
    Who would be happy about that?

    Well, yes, those encounters would be painfully easy. But they would be the same encounters and could be used for training for the real thing, challenge mote, or hard mode, or it's challenge mote. So they provide a skills ladder where the actual fight mechanics have been seen.

    And the other half of my concept, is a harder mode as well. So, yes escort on easy would be very very easy. That's OK, because normal would still exist, cm on normal would still exist, hard mode would be added, and cm for hard mode added.

    Now there's a ladder.

    Learn Xera on joke mode, scale up...

    Now the elitists are where the should be. At the top. And the newbs are where the should be... In the laughably easy mode learning how to get past it.

    Having THE SAME CONTENT stratified by difficulty, by nature stratifies elitism. Hence why there is virtually no elitism in fractals until tier 4. (or after few wipes on a tier 3)

    Also, my suggestions of 'reduced mechanics and dps check' would have to be adapted per boss. Maybe easy bosses don't enrage? Maybe MO's floor doesn't insta-kill you but insta-down you. There's tons of ways to make the difficulty of each fight lower.

    Samarog's break bar is smaller, and his split phase goes faster because Riggom and Guldam have reduced hp.

    I'm just throwing ideas, but it really doesn't matter if easy mode is too easy. Play a harder mode. That would be the point. Play with others at your skill level.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @Rhiannon.1726 said:
    The problem of threads like this is that there is a huge variety of opinions how easy it should get. Just look at the strike mission. Nearly everyone is complaining that it is too easy.

    The OP said „Easy mode- reduced mechanics and dps check…”
    Let’s use this for Escort, MO and even Cairn:
    There is no relevant dps check (though I don’t know what happens at MO if you reach enrage) so you’d have to remove one mechanic (or make it less deadly) -> you’ll get an open world escort event or a dps golem with the difficulty level of the strike mission.
    Who would be happy about that?

    Well, yes, those encounters would be painfully easy. But they would be the same encounters and could be used for training for the real thing, challenge mote, or hard mode, or it's challenge mote. So they provide a skills ladder where the actual fight mechanics have been seen.

    And the other half of my concept, is a harder mode as well. So, yes escort on easy would be very very easy. That's OK, because normal would still exist, cm on normal would still exist, hard mode would be added, and cm for hard mode added.

    Now there's a ladder.

    Learn Xera on joke mode, scale up...

    Now the elitists are where the should be. At the top. And the newbs are where the should be... In the laughably easy mode learning how to get past it.

    Having THE SAME CONTENT stratified by difficulty, by nature stratifies elitism. Hence why there is virtually no elitism in fractals until tier 4. (or after few wipes on a tier 3)

    Also, my suggestions of 'reduced mechanics and dps check' would have to be adapted per boss. Maybe easy bosses don't enrage? Maybe MO's floor doesn't insta-kill you but insta-down you. There's tons of ways to make the difficulty of each fight lower.

    Samarog's break bar is smaller, and his split phase goes faster because Riggom and Guldam have reduced hp.

    I'm just throwing ideas, but it really doesn't matter if easy mode is too easy. Play a harder mode. That would be the point. Play with others at your skill level.

    the only problem i see, is that those who are at the top dont want the people below them to get any rewards whatsoever. "cant play top tier? NO LEGENDARY ARMOR."

    Just..no..make it take it longer on "easier" modes.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @Rhiannon.1726 said:
    The problem of threads like this is that there is a huge variety of opinions how easy it should get. Just look at the strike mission. Nearly everyone is complaining that it is too easy.

    The OP said „Easy mode- reduced mechanics and dps check…”
    Let’s use this for Escort, MO and even Cairn:
    There is no relevant dps check (though I don’t know what happens at MO if you reach enrage) so you’d have to remove one mechanic (or make it less deadly) -> you’ll get an open world escort event or a dps golem with the difficulty level of the strike mission.
    Who would be happy about that?

    People that do not find escort and Cairn to be laughably easy.

    Trust me, between the strike mission and Cairn there's a really big gap. You may not see it, but it's still there. Just weakening (or even removing) one mechanic would not make Cairn drop down to the strike level. It would not even drop it to freezie level (and freezie, as easy as it is, is still at least one tier harder than strike).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • BrokenGlass.9356BrokenGlass.9356 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @Rhiannon.1726 said:
    The problem of threads like this is that there is a huge variety of opinions how easy it should get. Just look at the strike mission. Nearly everyone is complaining that it is too easy.

    The OP said „Easy mode- reduced mechanics and dps check…”
    Let’s use this for Escort, MO and even Cairn:
    There is no relevant dps check (though I don’t know what happens at MO if you reach enrage) so you’d have to remove one mechanic (or make it less deadly) -> you’ll get an open world escort event or a dps golem with the difficulty level of the strike mission.
    Who would be happy about that?

    Well, yes, those encounters would be painfully easy. But they would be the same encounters and could be used for training for the real thing, challenge mote, or hard mode, or it's challenge mote. So they provide a skills ladder where the actual fight mechanics have been seen.

    And the other half of my concept, is a harder mode as well. So, yes escort on easy would be very very easy. That's OK, because normal would still exist, cm on normal would still exist, hard mode would be added, and cm for hard mode added.

    Now there's a ladder.

    Learn Xera on joke mode, scale up...

    Now the elitists are where the should be. At the top. And the newbs are where the should be... In the laughably easy mode learning how to get past it.

    Having THE SAME CONTENT stratified by difficulty, by nature stratifies elitism. Hence why there is virtually no elitism in fractals until tier 4. (or after few wipes on a tier 3)

    Also, my suggestions of 'reduced mechanics and dps check' would have to be adapted per boss. Maybe easy bosses don't enrage? Maybe MO's floor doesn't insta-kill you but insta-down you. There's tons of ways to make the difficulty of each fight lower.

    Samarog's break bar is smaller, and his split phase goes faster because Riggom and Guldam have reduced hp.

    I'm just throwing ideas, but it really doesn't matter if easy mode is too easy. Play a harder mode. That would be the point. Play with others at your skill level.

    the only problem i see, is that those who are at the top dont want the people below them to get any rewards whatsoever. "cant play top tier? NO LEGENDARY ARMOR."

    Just..no..make it take it longer on "easier" modes.

    You would be upset, if you worked your kitten off and bought something for a lot of money and time investment, then your neighbor, who makes less than you... Was given one for free.

    So the people who have already worked need to be respected.

    But I do agree that it should be easier to get into normal raids. And it would be, if the people filling thier groups in LFG, could trust that you at least know the fight, even if you haven't cleared it on this difficulty yet. Which having an easy mode would provide.

    On that note

    I actually have thought about rewards...

    Easy- instead of magnitie, gain a load of random 'newest season' map currency. (from the 5 newest maps)
    Easy CM- introduce magnitie into the loot table that decides what currencies you get. So some of them, might be magnitie.

    Normal- unchanged. (legendary armor completed on normal or hard difficulty, no interactions with easy mode.)
    Normal CM- unchanged.

    Hard- increased quantity of magnitite, higher chance of ascended drops
    Hard CM- in game leader board with running seasons. Each season release an existing mount skin with unique lighting shades that make them look metallic. And default unique dye colors. The third best static at the end of the season gets a bronze mount, second silver, and first gold. Each encounter is graded separately, on speed cleared, damage dealt, damage received, boon uptime, and mechanics completed. Allowing these players a badge of honor, that shows not only that your a total raid God. But shows when it happens... because each season awards a different mount, and they never repeat rewards. (30 players, per boss, per season. That's a pretty big number of people. So there will be lots of golden raptors running around.)

    This way, everyone can get legendary armor. It's not any easier for the new folks. And the old hands have badges of honor to work for, while also getting better loot drops than regular mode.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    You would be upset, if you worked your kitten off and bought something for a lot of money and time investment, then your neighbor, who makes less than you... Was given one for free.

    So the people who have already worked need to be respected.

    But I do agree that it should be easier to get into normal raids. And it would be, if the people filling thier groups in LFG, could trust that you at least know the fight, even if you haven't cleared it on this difficulty yet. Which having an easy mode would provide.

    On that note

    I actually have thought about rewards...

    Easy- instead of magnitie, gain a load of random 'newest season' map currency. (from the 5 newest maps)
    Easy CM- introduce magnitie into the loot table that decides what currencies you get. So some of them, might be magnitie.

    Normal- unchanged. (legendary armor completed on normal or hard difficulty, no interactions with easy mode.)
    Normal CM- unchanged.

    Hard- increased quantity of magnitite, higher chance of ascended drops
    Hard CM- in game leader board with running seasons. Each season release an existing mount skin with unique lighting shades that make them look metallic. And default unique dye colors. The third best static at the end of the season gets a bronze mount, second silver, and first gold. Each encounter is graded separately, on speed cleared, damage dealt, damage received, boon uptime, and mechanics completed. Allowing these players a badge of honor, that shows not only that your a total raid God. But shows when it happens... because each season awards a different mount, and they never repeat rewards. (30 players, per boss, per season. That's a pretty big number of people. So there will be lots of golden raptors running around.)

    This way, everyone can get legendary armor. It's not any easier for the new folks. And the old hands have badges of honor to work for, while also getting better loot drops than regular mode.

    Nice idea, definitely seen that in a similar way and therefore we can be assured that it'll never get implemented.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @Rhiannon.1726 said:
    The problem of threads like this is that there is a huge variety of opinions how easy it should get. Just look at the strike mission. Nearly everyone is complaining that it is too easy.

    The OP said „Easy mode- reduced mechanics and dps check…”
    Let’s use this for Escort, MO and even Cairn:
    There is no relevant dps check (though I don’t know what happens at MO if you reach enrage) so you’d have to remove one mechanic (or make it less deadly) -> you’ll get an open world escort event or a dps golem with the difficulty level of the strike mission.
    Who would be happy about that?

    Well, yes, those encounters would be painfully easy. But they would be the same encounters and could be used for training for the real thing, challenge mote, or hard mode, or it's challenge mote. So they provide a skills ladder where the actual fight mechanics have been seen.

    And the other half of my concept, is a harder mode as well. So, yes escort on easy would be very very easy. That's OK, because normal would still exist, cm on normal would still exist, hard mode would be added, and cm for hard mode added.

    Now there's a ladder.

    Learn Xera on joke mode, scale up...

    Now the elitists are where the should be. At the top. And the newbs are where the should be... In the laughably easy mode learning how to get past it.

    Having THE SAME CONTENT stratified by difficulty, by nature stratifies elitism. Hence why there is virtually no elitism in fractals until tier 4. (or after few wipes on a tier 3)

    Also, my suggestions of 'reduced mechanics and dps check' would have to be adapted per boss. Maybe easy bosses don't enrage? Maybe MO's floor doesn't insta-kill you but insta-down you. There's tons of ways to make the difficulty of each fight lower.

    Samarog's break bar is smaller, and his split phase goes faster because Riggom and Guldam have reduced hp.

    I'm just throwing ideas, but it really doesn't matter if easy mode is too easy. Play a harder mode. That would be the point. Play with others at your skill level.

    the only problem i see, is that those who are at the top dont want the people below them to get any rewards whatsoever. "cant play top tier? NO LEGENDARY ARMOR."

    Just..no..make it take it longer on "easier" modes.

    You would be upset, if you worked your kitten off and bought something for a lot of money and time investment, then your neighbor, who makes less than you... Was given one for free.

    So the people who have already worked need to be respected.

    But I do agree that it should be easier to get into normal raids. And it would be, if the people filling thier groups in LFG, could trust that you at least know the fight, even if you haven't cleared it on this difficulty yet. Which having an easy mode would provide.

    On that note

    I actually have thought about rewards...

    Easy- instead of magnitie, gain a load of random 'newest season' map currency. (from the 5 newest maps)
    Easy CM- introduce magnitie into the loot table that decides what currencies you get. So some of them, might be magnitie.

    Normal- unchanged. (legendary armor completed on normal or hard difficulty, no interactions with easy mode.)
    Normal CM- unchanged.

    Hard- increased quantity of magnitite, higher chance of ascended drops
    Hard CM- in game leader board with running seasons. Each season release an existing mount skin with unique lighting shades that make them look metallic. And default unique dye colors. The third best static at the end of the season gets a bronze mount, second silver, and first gold. Each encounter is graded separately, on speed cleared, damage dealt, damage received, boon uptime, and mechanics completed. Allowing these players a badge of honor, that shows not only that your a total raid God. But shows when it happens... because each season awards a different mount, and they never repeat rewards. (30 players, per boss, per season. That's a pretty big number of people. So there will be lots of golden raptors running around.)

    This way, everyone can get legendary armor. It's not any easier for the new folks. And the old hands have badges of honor to work for, while also getting better loot drops than regular mode.

    You do know that normal cm rewards are rewared once then never again right?

    • that magnatite shards weekly cap get reached before you even finish wing 1-4 bosses on normal during the week even if you 1 shoot them.
      So what use would the increased magnatite shards for hardmode be for?
  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Well, yes, those encounters would be painfully easy. But they would be the same encounters and could be used for training for the real thing, challenge mote, or hard mode, or it's challenge mote. So they provide a skills ladder where the actual fight mechanics have been seen.

    That's like saying running T1 Fractals is "training" for T4 CMs... (hint: it's not)
    Having the "same encounters" but with severely diminished mechanics means it's absolutely worthless for training. In fact, those running the easier version would learn the wrong mechanics and be a liability instead of an asset for a normal team. Obviously your idea has come up multiple times since 2015, including your "original" idea about rewards, I'm also sure in some months another post will appear claiming a "revolutionary" new idea for Raids. We've seen it all, if you bothered to do some research you'd know. The developers already responded, by introducing Strike Missions as a stepping stone for Raids, instead of an easier version for training, we'll all have to see how those turn out. The first one is terrible, but the concept isn't bad, it might work.

    But I do agree that it should be easier to get into normal raids. And it would be, if the people filling thier groups in LFG, could trust that you at least know the fight, even if you haven't cleared it on this difficulty yet. Which having an easy mode would provide.

    Try getting into a T4 CM Fractal group and tell them you've finished T1. See if they take you. "Know the fight" with completely butchered mechanics means you don't actually know the fight.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Trust me, between the strike mission and Cairn there's a really big gap. You may not see it, but it's still there. Just weakening (or even removing) one mechanic would not make Cairn drop down to the strike level. It would not even drop it to freezie level (and freezie, as easy as it is, is still at least one tier harder than strike).

    Well, it depends on the mechanic removed. Cairn has two interesting mechanics, Shared Agony (the big red damaging circle) and Unseen Burden (the stacking debuff you get after being hit by Spatial Manipulation), the rest of the attacks are "standard" boss dps attacks. If they removed both of these, Cairn would have no squad/team oriented mechanics anymore and be of similar level as the Icebrood Construct. However, the main problem with the Icebrood Construct is that it has no team oriented mechanics (unlike Freezie for example) so ideally Cairn would need to keep at least one of these team mechanics.

    If we want the easy version to be doable by any composition, in random groups like the Icebrood Construct, then Spatial Manipulation/Unseen Burden is the clear choice because it doesn't require specific builds. Shared Agony would be much harder for a random composition, because if a dps player gets it, it will be hard to recover, and you can't make sure there will even be a healer in the group. So Spatial Manipulation would be the Random group mechanic, and the Squad version would have both (because squads can prepare).

    That's how you make Cairn as easy as Freezie or the Icebrood Construct

    Edit: there is also Displacement, but that's not a team mechanic and, if SA and/or UB are removed it's mostly pointless

  • @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Hard CM- in game leader board with running seasons. Each season release an existing mount skin with unique lighting shades that make them look metallic. And default unique dye colors. The third best static at the end of the season gets a bronze mount, second silver, and first gold. Each encounter is graded separately, on speed cleared, damage dealt, damage received, boon uptime, and mechanics completed. Allowing these players a badge of honor, that shows not only that your a total raid God. But shows when it happens... because each season awards a different mount, and they never repeat rewards. (30 players, per boss, per season. That's a pretty big number of people. So there will be lots of golden raptors running around.)

    I especially like this part. Sadly this will never happen.
    I also like the mechanics completed one. It gives groups that arent part of the like 3 hardcore guilds left a chance to participate and win something.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Trust me, between the strike mission and Cairn there's a really big gap. You may not see it, but it's still there. Just weakening (or even removing) one mechanic would not make Cairn drop down to the strike level. It would not even drop it to freezie level (and freezie, as easy as it is, is still at least one tier harder than strike).

    Well, it depends on the mechanic removed. Cairn has two interesting mechanics, Shared Agony (the big red damaging circle) and Unseen Burden (the stacking debuff you get after being hit by Spatial Manipulation), the rest of the attacks are "standard" boss dps attacks. If they removed both of these, Cairn would have no squad/team oriented mechanics anymore and be of similar level as the Icebrood Construct. However, the main problem with the Icebrood Construct is that it has no team oriented mechanics (unlike Freezie for example) so ideally Cairn would need to keep at least one of these team mechanics.

    If we want the easy version to be doable by any composition, in random groups like the Icebrood Construct, then Spatial Manipulation/Unseen Burden is the clear choice because it doesn't require specific builds. Shared Agony would be much harder for a random composition, because if a dps player gets it, it will be hard to recover, and you can't make sure there will even be a healer in the group. So Spatial Manipulation would be the Random group mechanic, and the Squad version would have both (because squads can prepare).

    That's how you make Cairn as easy as Freezie or the Icebrood Construct

    Edit: there is also Displacement, but that's not a team mechanic and, if SA and/or UB are removed it's mostly pointless

    Displacement is often one of the mechanics that result in people getting blown out of the platform in training runs. And even without shared agony, cairn would still remain much harder than freezie, with a number of mechanics that can easily kill less-skilled players.

    You're right, though - if any mechanics is to be removed, it has to be Shared Agony, not Unseen Burden. Although i am not so sure about easy mode needing to be finished by any composition. In fact, having to think of the group composition should be one of the core things easy mode should point out to participants.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Trust me, between the strike mission and Cairn there's a really big gap. You may not see it, but it's still there. Just weakening (or even removing) one mechanic would not make Cairn drop down to the strike level. It would not even drop it to freezie level (and freezie, as easy as it is, is still at least one tier harder than strike).

    Well, it depends on the mechanic removed. Cairn has two interesting mechanics, Shared Agony (the big red damaging circle) and Unseen Burden (the stacking debuff you get after being hit by Spatial Manipulation), the rest of the attacks are "standard" boss dps attacks. If they removed both of these, Cairn would have no squad/team oriented mechanics anymore and be of similar level as the Icebrood Construct. However, the main problem with the Icebrood Construct is that it has no team oriented mechanics (unlike Freezie for example) so ideally Cairn would need to keep at least one of these team mechanics.

    If we want the easy version to be doable by any composition, in random groups like the Icebrood Construct, then Spatial Manipulation/Unseen Burden is the clear choice because it doesn't require specific builds. Shared Agony would be much harder for a random composition, because if a dps player gets it, it will be hard to recover, and you can't make sure there will even be a healer in the group. So Spatial Manipulation would be the Random group mechanic, and the Squad version would have both (because squads can prepare).

    That's how you make Cairn as easy as Freezie or the Icebrood Construct

    Edit: there is also Displacement, but that's not a team mechanic and, if SA and/or UB are removed it's mostly pointless

    Displacement is often one of the mechanics that result in people getting blown out of the platform in training runs. And even without shared agony, cairn would still remain much harder than freezie, with a number of mechanics that can easily kill less-skilled players.

    You're right, though - if any mechanics is to be removed, it has to be Shared Agony, not Unseen Burden. Although i am not so sure about easy mode needing to be finished by any composition. In fact, having to think of the group composition should be one of the core things easy mode should point out to participants.

    On top of that, having swiftness partly negates Unseen Burden (though if supports somehow can't maintain that buff, it'll get kinda painful. Shared Agony is probably the 2nd most dangerous mechanic but no. 1 to new players should be Displacement as new raiders tend to get ported a lot and they usually panic, forget to use special skill to return and eat shooting stars which eventually downs them. They usually also get shared agony after getting ported which wrecks them further as they start kiting (which is the worst thing you can do at Cairn). So, quite nasty consequences from getting ported. Kitty also once counted the downs from logs after a few trainings she hosted and about 85-90% of downed states tend to occur outside the carved inner circle (while players should stay inside it to dps and to avoid those shooting stars).
    Though Cairn also has one heavy-hitting thing that people rarely speak about: its auto-attack sequence. Each attack chain does 2x5,1k damage to anyone standing in front of the boss in melee-range.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • BrokenGlass.9356BrokenGlass.9356 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @Rhiannon.1726 said:
    The problem of threads like this is that there is a huge variety of opinions how easy it should get. Just look at the strike mission. Nearly everyone is complaining that it is too easy.

    The OP said „Easy mode- reduced mechanics and dps check…”
    Let’s use this for Escort, MO and even Cairn:
    There is no relevant dps check (though I don’t know what happens at MO if you reach enrage) so you’d have to remove one mechanic (or make it less deadly) -> you’ll get an open world escort event or a dps golem with the difficulty level of the strike mission.
    Who would be happy about that?

    Well, yes, those encounters would be painfully easy. But they would be the same encounters and could be used for training for the real thing, challenge mote, or hard mode, or it's challenge mote. So they provide a skills ladder where the actual fight mechanics have been seen.

    And the other half of my concept, is a harder mode as well. So, yes escort on easy would be very very easy. That's OK, because normal would still exist, cm on normal would still exist, hard mode would be added, and cm for hard mode added.

    Now there's a ladder.

    Learn Xera on joke mode, scale up...

    Now the elitists are where the should be. At the top. And the newbs are where the should be... In the laughably easy mode learning how to get past it.

    Having THE SAME CONTENT stratified by difficulty, by nature stratifies elitism. Hence why there is virtually no elitism in fractals until tier 4. (or after few wipes on a tier 3)

    Also, my suggestions of 'reduced mechanics and dps check' would have to be adapted per boss. Maybe easy bosses don't enrage? Maybe MO's floor doesn't insta-kill you but insta-down you. There's tons of ways to make the difficulty of each fight lower.

    Samarog's break bar is smaller, and his split phase goes faster because Riggom and Guldam have reduced hp.

    I'm just throwing ideas, but it really doesn't matter if easy mode is too easy. Play a harder mode. That would be the point. Play with others at your skill level.

    the only problem i see, is that those who are at the top dont want the people below them to get any rewards whatsoever. "cant play top tier? NO LEGENDARY ARMOR."

    Just..no..make it take it longer on "easier" modes.

    You would be upset, if you worked your kitten off and bought something for a lot of money and time investment, then your neighbor, who makes less than you... Was given one for free.

    So the people who have already worked need to be respected.

    But I do agree that it should be easier to get into normal raids. And it would be, if the people filling thier groups in LFG, could trust that you at least know the fight, even if you haven't cleared it on this difficulty yet. Which having an easy mode would provide.

    On that note

    I actually have thought about rewards...

    Easy- instead of magnitie, gain a load of random 'newest season' map currency. (from the 5 newest maps)
    Easy CM- introduce magnitie into the loot table that decides what currencies you get. So some of them, might be magnitie.

    Normal- unchanged. (legendary armor completed on normal or hard difficulty, no interactions with easy mode.)
    Normal CM- unchanged.

    Hard- increased quantity of magnitite, higher chance of ascended drops
    Hard CM- in game leader board with running seasons. Each season release an existing mount skin with unique lighting shades that make them look metallic. And default unique dye colors. The third best static at the end of the season gets a bronze mount, second silver, and first gold. Each encounter is graded separately, on speed cleared, damage dealt, damage received, boon uptime, and mechanics completed. Allowing these players a badge of honor, that shows not only that your a total raid God. But shows when it happens... because each season awards a different mount, and they never repeat rewards. (30 players, per boss, per season. That's a pretty big number of people. So there will be lots of golden raptors running around.)

    This way, everyone can get legendary armor. It's not any easier for the new folks. And the old hands have badges of honor to work for, while also getting better loot drops than regular mode.

    You do know that normal cm rewards are rewared once then never again right?

    • that magnatite shards weekly cap get reached before you even finish wing 1-4 bosses on normal during the week even if you 1 shoot them.
      So what use would the increased magnatite shards for hardmode be for?

    To your first point. Yes, in normal mode that would still be true. In easy mode, cm would would just be a normal boss...but the rewards table would give mostly LS currency, and some magnitite... So that you can't easy mode slothazor and cm the rest of the dungeon for better rewards. You can do that, but you get less rewards than just running normal mode.... and in Hard mode, you fight against normal CM bosses as the default for increased loot. (I'm OK with raising the magnitite cap here. You should get better rewards for being better at raiding.) the hard mode CM, would track your encounter for the hard leader boards.... As wells as making the fights harder. (VG splits at random health percentages, the floor is sometime stationary, and sometimes rotating. Every time he casts teleport circles there's a small chance to spawn 4x as many. Ect...) whatever improved rewards could be granted only once per season.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Well, yes, those encounters would be painfully easy. But they would be the same encounters and could be used for training for the real thing, challenge mote, or hard mode, or it's challenge mote. So they provide a skills ladder where the actual fight mechanics have been seen.

    That's like saying running T1 Fractals is "training" for T4 CMs... (hint: it's not)
    Having the "same encounters" but with severely diminished mechanics means it's absolutely worthless for training. In fact, those running the easier version would learn the wrong mechanics and be a liability instead of an asset for a normal team. Obviously your idea has come up multiple times since 2015, including your "original" idea about rewards, I'm also sure in some months another post will appear claiming a "revolutionary" new idea for Raids. We've seen it all, if you bothered to do some research you'd know. The developers already responded, by introducing Strike Missions as a stepping stone for Raids, instead of an easier version for training, we'll all have to see how those turn out. The first one is terrible, but the concept isn't bad, it might work.

    But I do agree that it should be easier to get into normal raids. And it would be, if the people filling thier groups in LFG, could trust that you at least know the fight, even if you haven't cleared it on this difficulty yet. Which having an easy mode would provide.

    Try getting into a T4 CM Fractal group and tell them you've finished T1. See if they take you. "Know the fight" with completely butchered mechanics means you don't actually know the fight.

    Way to strawman. T1 aren't training for T4. You're correct. Absolutely.

    T3 is training for T4 tho. That's the nature of climbing difficulty scales.

    Why so extreme? Like, comparing climbing a ladder to jumping like a bloody kangaroo? Of course you appear correct.

    Do you invite a guy who does easy to hard mode CM? Probbs not. Your funeral if you do. But is that guy a better choice than someone who's never raided before? Yep. Especially if he's played the encounter you're talking about. (FYI I'm not saying that noobs magically become good. They don't and learning takes time.) all in saying is, that if your form up a normal raid... And a guy comes along whose beaten the encounters with most of the mechanics functional.... You're gonna have to explain one thing and not the entire kitten encounter.

    Also, not everyone just memorizes.... Lots of people learn synergistically. If you know what to do when you see a green circle in raids, your the second kind. If you learn a new encounter, and have to ask, 'what are the green circles again?' you're the first kind.

    Nothing wrong with either kind. Just don't assume everyone is one or the other.

    Oh and hey, let's address your snarky tone about my idea's originality.... It doesn't matter if I came up with it, or if someone else did. Doesn't matter if it's good either. What matters is that it spurs on NEW discussion in an OLD topic, full of dug in keyboard warriors with no interest in understanding the other side's position. Which it seems to be doing. I don't really care if everything here has been said before, I wasn't there at the time, and folks are reading and posting. So long as most people are discussing.... It doesn't matter what happend in the past. After all, it is always now.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    T1 aren't training for T4. You're correct. Absolutely.

    Well it was obvious but I'm glad you agree.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    T1 aren't training for T4. You're correct. Absolutely.

    Well it was obvious but I'm glad you agree.

    Troll.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    T1 aren't training for T4. You're correct. Absolutely.

    Well it was obvious but I'm glad you agree.

    Noticed you didn't comment on t3 being training for t4.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Noticed you didn't comment on t3 being training for t4.

    Why would I? But since you insist, in the OP they mentioned a single new tier (easy mode) under the difficulty of current Raids, they didn't say to add 10204 new scales. Which would be problematic on so many levels anyway. Yes let's add T3 as training for T4, then add T2 as training for T3, and T1 as training for T1. How many new difficulty settings do we need? And further, if they finally introduced an easy mode that is at the T3 level, do you think these kinds of threads would stop? I believe they would stay the same as they are now, as those that even remotely capable of T3 fractals will move on to T4 anyway. Meaning they'd be asking for a "very easy" mode next, until it's like the Strike Mission.

    I'm surprised we haven't seen a thread asking for an easy mode for the Strike Mission yet

  • BrokenGlass.9356BrokenGlass.9356 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Noticed you didn't comment on t3 being training for t4.

    Why would I? But since you insist, in the OP they mentioned a single new tier (easy mode) under the difficulty of current Raids, they didn't say to add 10204 new scales. Which would be problematic on so many levels anyway. Yes let's add T3 as training for T4, then add T2 as training for T3, and T1 as training for T1. How many new difficulty settings do we need? And further, if they finally introduced an easy mode that is at the T3 level, do you think these kinds of threads would stop? I believe they would stay the same as they are now, as those that even remotely capable of T3 fractals will move on to T4 anyway. Meaning they'd be asking for a "very easy" mode next, until it's like the Strike Mission.

    I'm surprised we haven't seen a thread asking for an easy mode for the Strike Mission yet

    This is just a failure of imagination coupled with nihilism.

    Folks like you hear me say 'easy mode' and they hear 'a mode so easy that it isn't worth playing.'

    That just not what I'm saying.

    Folks apparently don't realize that it doesn't need to be much easier.

    The point is to let the elitists stratify up. NOT to get the newbs to stratify up.

    If the elitists get out of the noobs way...(you know... Like they do in fractals, with t1 being bassicly all noobs, or casuals... And T4 being bassicly all elitists, or skilled players) then the noobs will have a good time rather than being made to feel small.

    Now those people, can improve. Because the climate has changed its toxicity level.

    By the time they climb up, they aren't noobs.

    And the whole time the noobs are doing that? The elite among us, can play together with less noobs showing up where they shouldn't be: dragging down the fun.

    Your hung up on 'how easy, and how hard?' when the point is: THE SAME CONTENT WITH STRATIFIED DIFFICULTY

    which separates the community, so the Elites don't constantly feel the weight of noobs dragging them down. And so the newbs don't constantly feel the rejection of the Elites.

    This is like Pysch 101 stuff.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Noticed you didn't comment on t3 being training for t4.

    Why would I? But since you insist, in the OP they mentioned a single new tier (easy mode) under the difficulty of current Raids, they didn't say to add 10204 new scales. Which would be problematic on so many levels anyway. Yes let's add T3 as training for T4, then add T2 as training for T3, and T1 as training for T1. How many new difficulty settings do we need? And further, if they finally introduced an easy mode that is at the T3 level, do you think these kinds of threads would stop? I believe they would stay the same as they are now, as those that even remotely capable of T3 fractals will move on to T4 anyway. Meaning they'd be asking for a "very easy" mode next, until it's like the Strike Mission.

    I'm surprised we haven't seen a thread asking for an easy mode for the Strike Mission yet

    This is just a failure of imagination coupled with nihilism.

    Folks like you hear me say 'easy mode' and they hear 'a mode so easy that it isn't worth playing.'

    That just not what I'm saying.

    Folks apparently don't realize that it doesn't need to be much easier.

    The point is to let the elitists stratify up. NOT to get the newbs to stratify up.

    If the elitists get out of the noobs way...(you know... Like they do in fractals, with t1 being bassicly all noobs, or casuals... And T4 being bassicly all elitists, or skilled players) then the noobs will have a good time rather than being made to feel small.

    I'm sorry, but this is both condescending and nosense.

    What does a little easier exactly mean? The level of incompetence goes way way way down. There is a vast majority of players who literally have 0 clue of how this games combat, builds or mechanics work.

    What maddoctor was refering to was:
    If we introduce a level of easier raids, who is not to say that these easy raids would not still be to difficult for a vast majority of players? Do we then introduce another layer of easier raids below easy? Or do we tell these even less skilled players to shove off?

    People arguing that 1 easy mode is enough most often simply mean: I want an easy mode which suits me personally.

    That's neither productive nor helpful or addressing the issue. The strike mission was a great example of how using actual data on player performance (remember the recent quote in performance disparity between top performing players and average players?) can create content unsuited for its purpose. At the same time it shows just how incompetent some players in this game can be (groups failing the strike mission).

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Now those people, can improve. Because the climate has changed its toxicity level.

    By the time they climb up, they aren't noobs.

    Have you been to tier 3 fractals? Your theory here is not supported in anyway in game. Tier 3 fractals, basically the equivalent to your easy mode raids if they are meant to be "slightly" easier, is THE most toxic place in fractals.

    You are making 1 essentialy mistake which is both a sign of incredible arrogance as well as absolute lack of understanding of basic human interaction:
    You constantly assume and present that top tier players are the only players who would be toxic. Some of the most toxic interactions I have witnessed were in open world content over trivial things. More casual players are in no way less or more toxic than higher performing players.

    Players are players, toxic ones will be toxic, not toxic ones will be not toxic and when players are prevented by others in succedding and getting their loot, most will turn toxic. That would apply to easier raids just as it does to normal ones right now.

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    And the whole time the noobs are doing that? The elite among us, can play together with less noobs showing up where they shouldn't be: dragging down the fun.

    Your hung up on 'how easy, and how hard?' when the point is: THE SAME CONTENT WITH STRATIFIED DIFFICULTY

    which separates the community, so the Elites don't constantly feel the weight of noobs dragging them down. And so the newbs don't constantly feel the rejection of the Elites.

    This is like Pysch 101 stuff.

    You should not talk about basic psychology when arguing from an anarchist "the evil elites" perspective. Sorry but half the stuff you said was both offensive and plain ignorant of basic human behavior.

  • BrokenGlass.9356BrokenGlass.9356 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    An explanation of what it would feel like (theoretically) playing in tiered difficulty raids.

    Easy: here is where you start raiding. The community formed around this content, would end up with all the beginners. Anyone who finds medium too difficult, or too toxic, would play here. In much the same way that many casual people, who wish to avoid toxic environments play T1 fractals despite being vastly over qualified. This provides the ability to choose to raid, and to choose not to be made to feel like you are less for simply learning. The CM here, to set a boss to normal difficulty (which would produce normal difficulty KP) allows people to get KP in a community that's less toxic. The existence of the CM to raise each boss to normal, is what prevents the need for easier modes. Because even if it is too easy, you can still work within a more accepting community to learn. (again, those not interested in helping others... Play higher difficulty)

    Medium: once people have mastered easy mode, this would be the primary spot where most people end up raiding. This level would be the introduction of toxicity. Because this level would be the blending of the oil and water layers of the player base. The reason the total quantity of suffering would be lessened, compaierd to what it is now, is that most of the players who are too emotionally effected by this, will play easy mode. Those who tend to create the most toxic environments for new players, (speedclear, reward oriented players, with little to no patience for anyone else delaying thier fun.) would end up playing the harder mode for the better rewards... Thus creating a middle ground, where knowledge of encounters is expected, and mistakes are more tolerated. Mainly because many of the speed clear, elite players will have moved to hard mode, specifically because of its reduction in unskilled players and increased rewards. The CM here (while you only get these rewards once) should provide a Hard Mode KP, so that you can train in an environment where there is enough pressure from others to elicit changes, but you don't have to drag hard mode players down to get enough KP to eventually join them.

    Hard: this mode would collect the YouTube and twitch streamers, the organized raiding guilds (like snowcrows and others) ect. And while these groups are generally non-toxic, the fans of these groups tend to be toxic to those players who are not as invested. Kicking/blocking at the first down, asking for unreasonable quantities of kill proofs, ec. This is, of course justified, as those players not able to keep up to thier speed... tend to ruin the elite's good time, turning one pull into many, and a half hour into hours and hours. And because rewards are capped, these players wish to reach that reward cap as fast as possible. So those people would isolate themselves away, into a contained area, where you have to prove yourself at the door to even get in. The exclusive experience they want, would actually become exclusive.

    This is what I have meant by 'stratification of difficulty' in my previous posts.

    It's more important that there be layers... Than that the first layer be easy enough.

    But, I'm open to just how easy, and how hard the modes should be. And while I have suggestions to this effect, I don't claim to know. I don't think easy needs to be much easier, nor hard to be much harder to stratify the opinions and play styles of the player base.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Yep. Have been to T3. Why is it toxic? It's the first place where noobs on the way up, interact with the bottom tier of the elite.... In that place, in any difficulty stratification, you'll get toxicity. Fractals as a whole, are MUCH less toxic. (if you're warming up your fingers to refute that point... Why don't you link all the recent 'fractals are toxic' threads next to all the 'raids are toxic' threads.)

    I've been a long term (several years) fractal & raid player with a huge amount of pugging and I definitely have to disagree with you. Fractals are much more toxic and T3 is the worst of all tiers followed by T4 groups with almost none to zero requirements that will explode into a skritt show of insults once you wipe more than once on a boss. I've never encountered that kind of humiliations in raids but I've witnessed it a lot in fractals. The overwhelming majority of my block list is filled with people I met in fractals. Most of them were underperforming in combination with toxicity.
    The mistake you and others are making all the time: You see requirements as toxic but they aren't. We have those everywhere even right now for example:

    • ATM (Ascent to Madness) - chrono - know how to portal
    • Arah P4 (T4 Fractal build and gear) - I don't have to mention that I carried this group some hours ago in the evening. Fast and efficient with my power ranger on 2nd account
    • Lab Farm - NO TRINKETS - NO MOUNTS yadda yadda
    • CMs + T4s - 250 KPs etc.

    That's not toxicity. That's the same thing like going to play soccer with your friends and some others are coming by asking to play with you and you negate it because you know they don't have the same level you and your friends have and that it'll take the fun away from you.
    These days lots of people and especially very young people cannot accept a "No." + in the internet everything is for everyone so people tend to think they have a certain right. They are just plain wrong.

    The overwhelming majority of raid kicks are free from insults, hostility or trolling, they are due to heavily underperforming and not meeting the basic standards. On the contrary, most of the commanders are very forgiving letting players stay for more than 2-3 tries although it's obvious that the performance won't change the next try (which is kinda toxic towards the rest of the squad). If you are getting kicked because you clearly didn't belong into a certain group it's not the fault of the others but on you.
    But still those people call raiders elitists and toxic because in the early days they tried to get into groups without any idea and were booted. What a pity! They could have known it, potentially as raids were announced as the most challenging group content in the game. But hey, those are exact the kind of players that never read any information about the game, patches or in forums or at reddit at all. They play how they want because they think that GW2 was advertised like that which is again wrong.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    About easy/normal/hard modes: Splitting raids into 3 tiers would simply result in normal mode dying as people would simply move to hard mode CM to get their weekly rewards in one run and as the hard mode would be more challenging, people would be even more strict and toxic about their squad comps. And as the good players would run hard mode CM, not-that-good players would most likely run hard mode with toxicity surpassing even what T3 is atm (traditionally T3 is the tier where players go if they're not good enough to deal with T4 stuffs). And CM's being the same as next tier would be kinda pointless as you could just as well run a group in next tier with low reqs.
    And easy mode would most likely end up either abandoned due to rewards not being worth it or being the clownfiesta that many "semi-exp" runs tend to be atm regardless of their easier difficulty. Strike missions should work well for those players who want raid-like stuff without investing in proper gears and tiny bit of time to prepare for raids. Apparently the difficulty of strike missions is decent for those parts of community as some people still manage to go down in current strike mission even with good raiding healer in squad. (And Kitty's heard reports of some squads wiping to that boss...no idea how that is possible but then again, Kitty's prolly forgot the times when she was a nab.)
    E: And when Kitty says proper gears, she means getting at least zerker's (good, costs about 30g for full set) or carrion's (budget condi option, 10-15g) exotic gears which should be a very minor investment considering how much raids will give weekly once you can start running them.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    And easy mode would most likely end up either abandoned due to rewards not being worth it

    Yes this would likely be a very big problem. An easy mode would have to compete with the open world farming activities because it will attract the same kind of players. Since normal Raids cannot compete with those farms, it's highly improbable that an easy version for them would. Meaning those farmers won't find the content attractive. It will essentially be Arah Story Mode all over again

    And as far as hard mode is concerned, that's the exact reason why the developers haven't made CMs repeatable, fearing the raid players would move on to CMs and abandon the normal version.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    This is what I have meant by 'stratification of difficulty' in my previous posts.

    This is what already happens in Raids because the bosses have a huge difference in difficulty. Applying some kind of difficulty split to all of them at once isn't going to work, just compare Shatterer Observatory Fractal with Uncategorized Fractal, Mai Trin with Deepstone, Nightmare with Ascalon and so on, the T1 versions of some fractals are harder than the T2 versions of other ones (or even T3). The tiers aren't as clear as they may look to be. A lower tier Fractal isn't necessarily easier than a higher tier one, it depends on a lot of factors. Same is true for Raids, some bosses are exceptionally easy, like Cairn and Mursaat Overseer, and others are really hard, like Dhumm and Xera, you can't put Raid bosses in difficulty tiers.

    And then you say things like:

    Folks apparently don't realize that it doesn't need to be much easier.

    You are saying that an easy version of Dhuum, that must be easier than the current/normal Mursaat Overseer, to keep them within your own tiers, isn't going to be "much easier". You can replace Mursaat Overseer with most other bosses and that line won't really change. Truth of the matter is, if you want all bosses to belong to multiple tiers, then some of them will have to be "much easier" in order to fit, because there is already a gigantic difference in their difficulty.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    This is what I have meant by 'stratification of difficulty' in my previous posts.

    This is what already happens in Raids because the bosses have a huge difference in difficulty. Applying some kind of difficulty split to all of them at once isn't going to work, just compare Shatterer Observatory Fractal with Uncategorized Fractal, Mai Trin with Deepstone, Nightmare with Ascalon and so on, the T1 versions of some fractals are harder than the T2 versions of other ones (or even T3). The tiers aren't as clear as they may look to be. A lower tier Fractal isn't necessarily easier than a higher tier one, it depends on a lot of factors. Same is true for Raids, some bosses are exceptionally easy, like Cairn and Mursaat Overseer, and others are really hard, like Dhumm and Xera, you can't put Raid bosses in difficulty tiers.

    And then you say things like:

    Folks apparently don't realize that it doesn't need to be much easier.

    You are saying that an easy version of Dhuum, that must be easier than the current/normal Mursaat Overseer, to keep them within your own tiers, isn't going to be "much easier". You can replace Mursaat Overseer with most other bosses and that line won't really change. Truth of the matter is, if you want all bosses to belong to multiple tiers, then some of them will have to be "much easier" in order to fit, because there is already a gigantic difference in their difficulty.

    Why? That's the point? You'd fight guys like Dhuum on easy untill you could do it in normal. He can still be among the hardest bosses. Even in easy mode. Why would he have to be that easy? This is just stratified difficulty, across the tiers. This is actually good. Because it allows for a person climbing up the modes to learn on progressively harder bosses. Why would easy Dhuum have to be easier than normal MO? Where did this come from? Easy Dhuum should be easier than normal Dhuum. Apples to apples. Not apples to oranges.

    Why does easy mode always have to be thought of this way? It's not supposed to be 'so easy anyone can do it' it's supposed to be, 'easier by a bit' and it's hard to define that because each boss would get "nerfed down to easy mode" differently. Dhuum would of course be handled differently than MO.

    As for easy raid rewards being useless. Check older posts. A random assortment of the newest living story map currency. Always useful. So long as the living story team continues to not suck.

    It's still a raid guys. It's still supposed to be on the top tier content. It's just providing stairs rather than asking people to scale a cliff.

    And strike missions do in fact catch all the easier than easy players. Many of you guys are correct about that.

    But lots of the opinions here seem to be built on the assumption that people are so unbelievably bad at this game AND they can't learn. I just think that those people can learn and become great. Lots of times, they just need an environment supportive enough to be allowed to learn. (ask a teacher.)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Why would easy Dhuum have to be easier than normal MO? Where did this come from?

    You said it yourself already when you split your Raid boss tiers:

    Easy: here is where you start raiding. The community formed around this content, would end up with all the beginners.
    Medium: once people have mastered easy mode, this would be the primary spot where most people end up raiding.
    Hard: this mode would collect the YouTube and twitch streamers, the organized raiding guilds (like snowcrows and others) ect.

    Or now you change your entire argument so Dhuum (and the other better bosses of Raids) not needing an easy version for beginners? The entire tier system you propose is meaningless if you think about it more than a second.

    Easy Dhuum should be easier than normal Dhuum.

    An Easy Dhuum that is still harder than Mursaat Overseer means it's not a beginner friendly encounter (if we accept that all bosses require an easy version), making it worthless for the intended purpose you want it (for beginners). So you either need to rephrase your argument, your tiers or stop moving the goal posts around as it suits you.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Why would easy Dhuum have to be easier than normal MO? Where did this come from?

    You said it yourself already when you split your Raid boss tiers:

    Easy: here is where you start raiding. The community formed around this content, would end up with all the beginners.
    Medium: once people have mastered easy mode, this would be the primary spot where most people end up raiding.
    Hard: this mode would collect the YouTube and twitch streamers, the organized raiding guilds (like snowcrows and others) ect.

    Or now you change your entire argument so Dhuum (and the other better bosses of Raids) not needing an easy version for beginners? The entire tier system you propose is meaningless if you think about it more than a second.

    Easy Dhuum should be easier than normal Dhuum.

    An Easy Dhuum that is still harder than Mursaat Overseer means it's not a beginner friendly encounter (if we accept that all bosses require an easy version), making it worthless for the intended purpose you want it (for beginners). So you either need to rephrase your argument, your tiers or stop moving the goal posts around as it suits you.

    I haven't moved any goal posts. And I'm quite tired of being treated like a dishonest kitten. Just because I bite back at bullies, does not mean everything I say is some calculated attack on reason.

    Who said the hardest boss should be beginner friendly? Find where I used those words, and I'll happily tell you that I was wrong when I said it. But what you did quote, to me, denotes an apples to apples difficulty edit, per boss, that creates the tiers. The fallout of that, will mean some of the 'harder' bosses in easy won't be much easier. As I've already stated ad nauseam.

    Easy mode is not supposed to be "easy".

    Do we need to pull a fast food style name switcharoo in order to make you feel better?

    Medium, hard, and super hard? We all know it's just small medium and large.

    But we can endlessly argue about semantics. Sure. That seems fun.

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