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Save Ascalon!


Sir Arigius.6294

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Time travel is a lazy plot device because you can solve any problem with it. You have to make it plausible in the setting, too, and GW2 is not fit for it, I think. I only saw it working when the whole narrative was based around the idea of time travel (e.g. Back to the Future, The Time Machine) It would be a gimmick in this game and would only cause confusion.

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@dusanyu.4057 said:no Asclaon is dead, humans are on the brink of extinction (in lore) and the Asura have no motivation to rebuild a dead kingdom.

This is very true.

Also Ascalon is not dead, its healing, and if i may say so after what it looked like at the end of GW1 imma say its come a long way. Plus i love the colours of the region now.

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@Dante.1763 said:

@dusanyu.4057 said:no Asclaon is dead, humans are on the brink of extinction (in lore) and the Asura have no motivation to rebuild a dead kingdom.

This is very true.

Also Ascalon is not dead, its healing, and if i may say so after what it looked like at the end of GW1 imma say its come a long way. Plus i love the colours of the region now.

@dusanyu.4057 said:no Asclaon is dead, humans are on the brink of extinction (in lore) and the Asura have no motivation to rebuild a dead kingdom.

This is very true.

Also Ascalon is not dead, its healing, and if i may say so after what it looked like at the end of GW1 imma say its come a long way. Plus i love the colours of the region now.

I think he means "Ascalon is dead" as in the nation of Ascalon, not the region.

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@Kalavier.1097 said:

@dusanyu.4057 said:no Asclaon is dead, humans are on the brink of extinction (in lore) and the Asura have no motivation to rebuild a dead kingdom.

This is very true.

Also Ascalon is not dead, its healing, and if i may say so after what it looked like at the end of GW1 imma say its come a long way. Plus i love the colours of the region now.

@dusanyu.4057 said:no Asclaon is dead, humans are on the brink of extinction (in lore) and the Asura have no motivation to rebuild a dead kingdom.

This is very true.

Also Ascalon is not dead, its healing, and if i may say so after what it looked like at the end of GW1 imma say its come a long way. Plus i love the colours of the region now.

I think he means "Ascalon is dead" as in the nation of Ascalon, not the region.

Ah, if thats the case then still true!

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@crepuscular.9047 said:what the hell? Ascalon is already saved, from the humans, Ascalon had historically belonged to Charr, humans took the land away from themhumans are extraterrestrial beings to world of Tyria

Ascalon had historically belonged to the Dwarves and Grawl. The Charr are more invasive then most human empires and the fascism parading as a meritocracy over Ascalon is hardly good for it.

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@"Sir Arigius.6294" said:Wouldn't it be cool if the Asura built a time machine and sent you and some other characters back through time to stop the Charr from burning down Ascalon?

:thonk:

:thonk 2: the thonkening:

"Searing Day is inevitable."

@Loesh.4697 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:what the hell? Ascalon is already saved, from the humans, Ascalon had historically belonged to Charr, humans took the land away from themhumans are extraterrestrial beings to world of Tyria

Ascalon had historically belonged to the Dwarves and Grawl. The Charr are more invasive then most human empires and the fascism parading as a meritocracy over Ascalon is hardly good for it.

Though, who says "first there gets the rights". Charr were present for less than a generation, dwarves for an unclear amount of time and unclear amount of reign (they had a village in southeastern Ascalon, and a tomb in eastern Blood Legion Homelands, unclear how much, if any, more than that), while grawl were never civilized enough to be called a united people as far as history writes; meanwhile, humans had ruled over Ascalon for 1,190 years until a madman ruined it all.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Sir Arigius.6294" said:Wouldn't it be cool if the Asura built a time machine and sent you and some other characters back through time to stop the Charr from burning down Ascalon?

"Searing Day is inevitable."

@"crepuscular.9047" said:what the hell? Ascalon is already saved, from the humans, Ascalon had historically belonged to Charr, humans took the land away from themhumans are extraterrestrial beings to world of Tyria

Ascalon had historically belonged to the Dwarves and Grawl. The Charr are more invasive then most human empires and the fascism parading as a meritocracy over Ascalon is hardly good for it.

Though, who says "first there gets the rights". Charr were present for less than a generation, dwarves for an unclear amount of time
and
unclear amount of reign (they had a village in southeastern Ascalon, and a tomb in eastern Blood Legion Homelands, unclear how much, if any, more than that), while grawl were never civilized enough to be called a united people as far as history writes; meanwhile, humans had ruled over Ascalon for 1,190 years until a madman ruined it all.

Pretty much this. The only "right" the Charr have over Ascalon is that of conquerors, not some deep ancestral heritage.

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@Loesh.4697 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:what the hell? Ascalon is already saved, from the humans, Ascalon had historically belonged to Charr, humans took the land away from themhumans are extraterrestrial beings to world of Tyria

Ascalon had historically belonged to the Dwarves and Grawl. The Charr are more invasive then most human empires and the fascism parading as a meritocracy over Ascalon is hardly good for it.

Grawls... there weren't any organisation under a single banner like other more intelligent races

pretty sure the Dwarves were in the Shiverpeaks, and the Forgotten were around Ascalon region if you go back in history to the time of Ancient races, Charr then kicked their butt out

then humans came and kicked their butt out, which was probably the first time they lost a large territory and their mojo, hence their insistence on taking back Ascalon in GW1 and take down the humans

they could have crossed the Shiverpeaks as the more direct route to seige Orr, taking Kryta along with it, but the dwarven strongholds were too much for them

History is written by the victors ;)

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@crepuscular.9047 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:what the hell? Ascalon is already saved, from the humans, Ascalon had historically belonged to Charr, humans took the land away from themhumans are extraterrestrial beings to world of Tyria

Ascalon had historically belonged to the Dwarves and Grawl. The Charr are more invasive then most human empires and the fascism parading as a meritocracy over Ascalon is hardly good for it.

Grawls... there weren't any organisation under a single banner like other more intelligent races

pretty sure the Dwarves were in the Shiverpeaks, and the Forgotten were around Ascalon region if you go back in history to the time of Ancient races, Charr then kicked their butt out

then humans came and kicked their butt out, which was probably the first time they lost a large territory and their mojo, hence their insistence on taking back Ascalon in GW1 and take down the humans

they could have crossed the Shiverpeaks as the more direct route to seige Orr, taking Kryta along with it, but the dwarven strongholds were too much for them

History is written by the victors ;)

Naw, Sancoth Valley and (Maybe?)Grothmars ruins point to Dwarves having setup in Ascalon at some point in time. As for the Grawl, sure they weren't organized but they were clearly sapient and still are, their focus on a animistic spiritual lifestyle doesn't strictly make them stupid. Their ability to resist the Flame Shaman castes influence well into the modern day indicates the probably could figure a more complex society out if they wanted to, but they seem fairly content with their tribal spiritualism.

As for being written by the victors, the problem with the Ascalonian Insurrection/Ascalon War for Independence, as shown off by the fact those two different names even exist, is there isn't really a clear winner and loser. Sure the Charr broke Ascalon city and laid claim to large swaths of territory after the Searing, but it also became increasingly obvious their ability to sustain a protracted war was falting. The numerous micro and macro aggression's the Charr had made over the years, along with their consequences, resulted in their army grinding to a halt in front of Ebonhawke. They lacked the free manpower with the ghosts, the Flame, and the Brand, one could even argue that the Ascalonians had a real chance of securing a significant victory and more territory if they pushed the advantage in spite of the Dragons.

That's not how it played out though. The Charr were, arguably, pushed into a position of having to accept unfavorable terms. The Fields of Ruin were no longer a contested warzone but now were mostly human owned from Ebonhawke to Twins River Crossing with every Charr force either preparing to head out, staying behind just long enough to clear the Ogres, or demilitarizing. It's rather clever really, the Grothmar dialogue gives the very real impression that the Charr felt like they lost, and Bangar tapped into that sensation.

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@Loesh.4697 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:what the hell? Ascalon is already saved, from the humans, Ascalon had historically belonged to Charr, humans took the land away from themhumans are extraterrestrial beings to world of Tyria

Ascalon had historically belonged to the Dwarves and Grawl. The Charr are more invasive then most human empires and the fascism parading as a meritocracy over Ascalon is hardly good for it.

TBH I find the "Charr are more invasive" to be an odd statement, give how humanity displaced natives from several regions, while we can only factually say "The charr came into Ascalon, and we know they fought the Forgotten at blazeridge some"

@Loesh.4697 said:As for being written by the victors, the problem with the Ascalonian Insurrection/Ascalon War for Independence, as shown off by the fact those two different names even exist, is there isn't really a clear winner and loser. Sure the Charr broke Ascalon city and laid claim to large swaths of territory after the Searing, but it also became increasingly obvious their ability to sustain a protracted war was falting. The numerous micro and macro aggression's the Charr had made over the years, along with their consequences, resulted in their army grinding to a halt in front of Ebonhawke. They lacked the free manpower with the ghosts, the Flame, and the Brand, one could even argue that the Ascalonians had a real chance of securing a significant victory and more territory if they pushed the advantage in spite of the Dragons.

As far as I can see, the real issue was the Charr wanted to get out of an endless stalemate they were stuck in outside of Ebonhawke. I never really saw signs they were starting to lose ability to field forces there, but more of Iron Legion once again offering a peace to humanity, which was now accepted "Get me the Claw of the Khan-Ur from ascalon city, and I'll sign the cease fire, and we'll work on a treaty."

I'd argue that Ascalonians never had a chance at a real victory or push, as the thing keeping them alive, just like in GW1, was the wall around Ebonhawke. Humanity, Ascalonian's in particular, excelled at defensive operations over offensive. And we've heard in the past that humanity made major pushes into the fields of ruin but never succeeded in more then making the fields bloody. At the time, with the centaur war going badly and Caudacus's constant sabotage of the Seraph forces would make it very hard to be able to push outward and hold land.

That's not how it played out though. The Charr were, arguably, pushed into a position of having to accept unfavorable terms. The Fields of Ruin were no longer a contested warzone but now were mostly human owned from Ebonhawke to Twins River Crossing with every Charr force either preparing to head out, staying behind just long enough to clear the Ogres, or demilitarizing. It's rather clever really, the Grothmar dialogue gives the very real impression that the Charr felt like they lost, and Bangar tapped into that sensation.

I think it's more of the Charr decided to cut the one warfront that was going nowhere, and with the brand became harder to maintain and supply. Iron Legion has previously been okay with seeking peace, and with the brand they had a good excuse to get Ash to agree. With Ash in agreement, they could push blood into accepting it as well.

So they got the Claw back, got the peace talks underway, and as part of it gave humanity the Field of ruin again, keeping a force there to help control the brand and doing some joint operations against the ogres.

Grothmar dialogue gives several viewpoints. There is even a blood legion Charr who views the war as over because of the treaty, and is openly dismissive of her companion's comments about "disappointing their ancestors" by declaring the war over. True though, is that Bangar is directly targeting unhappy elements of the various legions to get them onboard with his thinking. Though I personally believe since he's being extra sneaky about how he's moving stuff around, those views may not be the majority opinion, at least right now.

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@Kalavier.1097 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:what the hell? Ascalon is already saved, from the humans, Ascalon had historically belonged to Charr, humans took the land away from themhumans are extraterrestrial beings to world of Tyria

Ascalon had historically belonged to the Dwarves and Grawl. The Charr are more invasive then most human empires and the fascism parading as a meritocracy over Ascalon is hardly good for it.

TBH I find the "Charr are more invasive" to be an odd statement, give how humanity displaced natives from several regions, while we can only factually say "The charr came into Ascalon, and we know they fought the Forgotten at blazeridge some"

@Loesh.4697 said:As for being written by the victors, the problem with the Ascalonian Insurrection/Ascalon War for Independence, as shown off by the fact those two different names even exist, is there isn't really a clear winner and loser. Sure the Charr broke Ascalon city and laid claim to large swaths of territory after the Searing, but it also became increasingly obvious their ability to sustain a protracted war was falting. The numerous micro and macro aggression's the Charr had made over the years, along with their consequences, resulted in their army grinding to a halt in front of Ebonhawke. They lacked the free manpower with the ghosts, the Flame, and the Brand, one could even argue that the Ascalonians had a real chance of securing a significant victory and more territory if they pushed the advantage in spite of the Dragons.

As far as I can see, the real issue was the Charr wanted to get out of an endless stalemate they were stuck in outside of Ebonhawke. I never really saw signs they were starting to lose ability to field forces there, but more of Iron Legion once again offering a peace to humanity, which was now accepted "Get me the Claw of the Khan-Ur from ascalon city, and I'll sign the cease fire, and we'll work on a treaty."

I'd argue that Ascalonians never had a chance at a real victory or push, as the thing keeping them alive, just like in GW1, was the wall around Ebonhawke. Humanity, Ascalonian's in particular, excelled at defensive operations over offensive. And we've heard in the past that humanity made major pushes into the fields of ruin but never succeeded in more then making the fields bloody. At the time, with the centaur war going badly and Caudacus's constant sabotage of the Seraph forces would make it very hard to be able to push outward and hold land.

That's not how it played out though. The Charr were, arguably, pushed into a position of having to accept unfavorable terms. The Fields of Ruin were no longer a contested warzone but now were mostly human owned from Ebonhawke to Twins River Crossing with every Charr force either preparing to head out, staying behind just long enough to clear the Ogres, or demilitarizing. It's rather clever really, the Grothmar dialogue gives the very real impression that the Charr felt like they lost, and Bangar tapped into that sensation.

I think it's more of the Charr decided to cut the one warfront that was going nowhere, and with the brand became harder to maintain and supply. Iron Legion has previously been okay with seeking peace, and with the brand they had a good excuse to get Ash to agree. With Ash in agreement, they could push blood into accepting it as well.

So they got the Claw back, got the peace talks underway, and as part of it gave humanity the Field of ruin again, keeping a force there to help control the brand and doing some joint operations against the ogres.

Grothmar dialogue gives several viewpoints. There is even a blood legion Charr who views the war as over because of the treaty, and is openly dismissive of her companion's comments about "disappointing their ancestors" by declaring the war over. True though, is that Bangar is directly targeting unhappy elements of the various legions to get them onboard with his thinking. Though I personally believe since he's being extra sneaky about how he's moving stuff around, those views may not be the majority opinion, at least right now.

I mean the Charr didn't really 'displace' natives so much as they 'killed and possibly/probably enslaved them'. Of those number we can also definitely say it wasn't just the Forgotten either, but again the Dwarves and Grawl. Like Charr society has been constructed around warfare and bloodshed for over a thousand years, where humans by mere virtue of actually communicating with the species they interact with are leagues better without a doubt. The only way they are comparable is how their expansions pushed pushed other people out of their homes, but how they went about that is radically different. By all indications, even their closest allies the Norn had extremely violent altercations with the Charr to the point where the former regarded them as little more then despoiling beasts two hundred years ago.

When you name your heroes literally 'Vortari the Despoiler' it's not exactly hard to see where that assumption comes from.

Generally speaking when it comes to treaties though, if your side has all the advantages and you know it you don't generally surrender land. Which is something that's even pointed out in the Fields of Ruin itself, to an extent the Legions tipped their hand to the difficulties they were enduring as a result of the Brand, Ghosts, and Flame Legion. Especially the Flame Legion, who seem to of had the lions share of the other Charr forces that were there. Not to say humans weren't desperate, the Centaur war was going on after all and humanity also had multiple fronts, they too were worried about losing Ebonhawke. But rather that the strain was far more pronounced in Charr society, and this would of likely been done sooner if there wasn't the older generation of Charr who were vocally against it.

Agreements like this are a series of power plays. You get the power, you can call the play, and humanity got to call a lot of plays. The Charr know this, they feel like ever since the agreement they've had to roll over like they have loser branded on their stomach. The posture of their empire is weak, depending on how you interpret things it's even starting to dissolve. If you're an old bastard like Bangar who has been around for fifty years watching your friends and family fight and die for the sake of war, that's a tough pill to swallow.

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@crepuscular.9047 said:pretty sure the Dwarves were in the Shiverpeaks, and the Forgotten were around Ascalon region if you go back in history to the time of Ancient races, Charr then kicked their butt out

In Edge of Destiny, Logan, Rytlock, and Caithe stumble across an ancient dwarven village just beneath the surface of the Blazeridge Gap area north of Ebonhawke. In GW1, we have the Catacombs of Kathandrax - Kathandrax Steelsoul was a dwarven hero who fought against charr invaders and was buried in what's now the Blood Legion Homelands.

We don't know how strong a presence dwarves had, but they had a presence big enough to build a village and a highly complex tomb.

Similarly, we don't know where Forgotten lived - they did confront charr, but this was after they conquered Ascalon and the lands north of it.

they could have crossed the Shiverpeaks as the more direct route to seige Orr, taking Kryta along with it, but the dwarven strongholds were too much for them

They did cross the Shiverpeaks to attack Kryta - they did so through norn territories to the north. They couldn't cross the Shiverpeaks to reach Orr because there's no suitable passageway from the Southern Shiverpeaks to Orr except via water; they'd need to cross through Kryta or Ascalon, so they did - they crossed Ascalon after causing the Searing.

As far as we know, the charr never confronted the dwarves in the Shiverpeaks. They used other methods.

@"Kalavier.1097" said:TBH I find the "Charr are more invasive" to be an odd statement, give how humanity displaced natives from several regions, while we can only factually say "The charr came into Ascalon, and we know they fought the Forgotten at blazeridge some"

While I agree on calling the charr "more invasive" is a bit of a stretch (I consider them equally invasive), the charr did displace the grawl, and did confront at least some dwarves when conquering Ascalon and the Blood Legion Homelands. We also know that had they not lost to humans, they would have continued invading into the Shiverpeaks until they met someone else they couldn't beat.

@"Kalavier.1097" said:As far as I can see, the real issue was the Charr wanted to get out of an endless stalemate they were stuck in outside of Ebonhawke. I never really saw signs they were starting to lose ability to field forces there, but more of Iron Legion once again offering a peace to humanity, which was now accepted "Get me the Claw of the Khan-Ur from ascalon city, and I'll sign the cease fire, and we'll work on a treaty."

I'd argue that Ascalonians never had a chance at a real victory or push, as the thing keeping them alive, just like in GW1, was the wall around Ebonhawke. Humanity, Ascalonian's in particular, excelled at defensive operations over offensive. And we've heard in the past that humanity made major pushes into the fields of ruin but never succeeded in more then making the fields bloody. At the time, with the centaur war going badly and Caudacus's constant sabotage of the Seraph forces would make it very hard to be able to push outward and hold land.

It was factually presented by devs that the reason for the truce was, ultimately, that the charr had too many enemies. They couldn't maintain a war on so many fronts - Foefire ghosts, humans, Flame Legion, ogres, and very recently Branded. While Sea of Sorrows did add a previous attempt to enter peace talks, this was towards Kryta and not necessarily Ebonhawke. We aren't sure how they would have handled since it never came to pass, unfortunately.

As for humans having a chance - in all honesty, if Rianna's plan to give the Flame Legion the Claw of the Khan-Ur succeeded, it's possible. With the Dragonbrand becoming a huge buffer, I could see humans expanding out of Ebonhawke if the Flame Legion gave a stronger push than they could. With charr forces diverted by a renewed Flame and the Dragonbrand, humans would mainly have to deal with ogres. And a deal could be struck there with some kraals here and there - since the ogres were in need of land, and the humans wanted to take back their lands, an offer to give a portion of Ascalon to ogres should there be victory would garner alliance.

@"Loesh.4697" said:I mean the Charr didn't really 'displace' natives so much as they 'killed and possibly/probably enslaved them'.

No, they 100% displaced some grawl.

The grawl are native to Tyria, and Ascalon in particular. The earliest mention of them is found in early charr military tributes that predate the arrival of humans in the area. In these annals, the charr are always portrayed as victors with the defeated grawl pulling the charr commanders in great chariots. The charr dominated the grawl, forcing them into the Shiverpeak and Blazeridge Mountains and beyond, where they lived at a subsistence level.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Planet_of_the_Grawl

All grawl originate from Ascalon - that's their point of origin - and were forced into the neighboring regions by the charr's invasion a millennia ago.

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I think that was more to say that rather then push other species outward, the goal of Charr invasions was to kill and subjugate everyone on that piece of land such as the Grawl. Said Grawl likely moved, rather then die. Should of worded it in a way to say 'yes they displaced some species, but not for a lack of an attempt to kill or enslave them instead.' Where, at the very least with the Canthan Forgotten for example, humans didn't seem to attack if they weren't in a competition for resources. The Charr had a very 'You own everything the light touches' mentality, at least from how I read things.

Humans clearly had a lot of that going on too, but it didn't seem as extreme.

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To address the original topic: Yes that would be an excellent idea for a Fractal, since we already have a similar one with the Flame Legion attack on Ascalon.

If the Asura, in the actual timeline, pulled something like this to undermind what would eventually lead to the Black Citadel, I don't know how it could not be seen as an act of war.

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An alternative would be a chernobyl like scenario:The land is deemed too inhospitable for settlement; as a result it is left as is.In the end, Nature takes its rights back and Ascalon becomes a "lush wasteland".The ghosts of ascalon somehow ends up as nature spirits (or alternative faery folks).They decide to hide the now mythical "lost kingdom of Ascalon" into a mist labyrinth.

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@"Sir Arigius.6294" said:Wouldn't it be cool if the Asura built a time machine and sent you and some other characters back through time to stop the Charr from burning down Ascalon?

Technically time travel already exists in Guildwars lore.In Gw1 time traveling Commandos traveled back in time to stop Gwen's mother Sarah from being murdered by a time traveling Asura golem.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Annihilator

:D

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Though, who says "first there gets the rights". Charr were present for less than a generation, dwarves for an unclear amount of time and unclear amount of reign (they had a village in southeastern Ascalon, and a tomb in eastern Blood Legion Homelands, unclear how much, if any, more than that), while grawl were never civilized enough to be called a united people as far as history writes; meanwhile, humans had ruled over Ascalon for 1,190 years until a madman ruined it all.

This. Very much this.

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