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Dealing damage is not a raid mechanic


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Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

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Funny thing talking about "maxing DPS" is that very few players actually reach that max dps. On average, across all raid bosses, the lowest possible squad dps recorded on gw2raidar is 55k. What's the "max DPS"? 118k, which is more than double the lowest, so I don't get this argument about players needing to play "optimally" to get into Raids. You do not need to do "max DPS" to play Raids, they are perfectly doable with much lower numbers. The only time DPS becomes a problem is if a player using only auto-attacks does more dps than a player that supposedly uses all their skills, or a purely support build dealing more damage than a full dps build

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@"ZDragon.3046" said:If person has 30kp but group wants 70kp they have accessed the content and will be turned down without knowing what their skill level is i should have been more clear so it was not to be assumed that person trying to join group would have 0kp. In alot of cases some raid bosses are easy enough where a person can pick up on mehcanics on the first or 2nd run through. Depends on the role they are playing. In the case of a dps role which is generally the easiest role to take i think that immidately turning some one down just because of a lower or lesser kp value than requested makes the whole system a bit stupid. Considering ive had people with 200+ kp stepping in oils on demios. >_>

Of course, but where do you set the limit. My former raid squad could easily carry 3-4 players at Cairn although we weren't a high skilled speed run group just a static with routine experience. Sometimes we took players with us for free and I'm sure we weren't the only one so other players can profit although most lfgs want to have a certain amount of KPs/LIs.In pugs it's harder to set a limit and with only letting people participate that have KPs you lower the probability of a failure. I mean I had enough low + high KPs runs where the squad disbanded because we couldn't get sh_t done. And all of these runs are very frustrating - for everyone tryharding - because you as an individual know that you are not responsible for the consistent failure. And since one isn't the only one it is just logical that you try to use a measurement of experience as entry barrier to ensure that no failure will occur. Seriously, I even hated it in my static to wipe more than 2 times on mediocre bosses and even worse wiping on easy bosses - wiping on Cairn, MO or Samarog is a shame! High KP groups are not for learning or training. They are built to achieve a smooth and quick run a.k.a. "Hello! Ready? Go! Bye bye!" To teach someone even if it is one single person does not belong into those groups - every minute lost is wasted time because every single member of the group usually guarantees the kill in one go.

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@"Dadnir.5038" said:Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:Funny thing talking about "maxing DPS" is that very few players actually reach that max dps. On average, across all raid bosses, the lowest possible squad dps recorded on gw2raidar is 55k. What's the "max DPS"? 118k, which is more than double the lowest, so I don't get this argument about players needing to play "optimally" to get into Raids. You do not need to do "max DPS" to play Raids, they are perfectly doable with much lower numbers. The only time DPS becomes a problem is if a player using only auto-attacks does more dps than a player that supposedly uses all their skills, or a purely support build dealing more damage than a full dps build

Some bosses are impossible to do with low dps, some you can ofc cheese even with 10 healers. For example twin largos is something that just insta kill every1 if dps is not high enough.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

And that's why you don't start with those bosses. A full wing 1 training with new players is not smart. It's rather stupid. Get Vale Guard done and then head to W4 or something related like Escort or CA. Gorseval is one of the easier bosses, yes but as you already stated you need a certain dps threshold. Therefore it makes more sense to acclimatize players to raiding first which is showing bosses where mechanics are more important. Once people get used to the overall raid feeling and the awareness for mechanics they'll have no problem to assure DPS for stricter situations.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

Gorseval is perfectly doable without high dps you just have to do the encounter "properly", you know those walls around the arena exist for a reason.... In general you don't need insanely high dps to succeed in Raids and gw2raidar is nice proof of that, if "max dps" was even required to beat Raids then we wouldn't see such difference between high and low.

Twin Largos dps numbers are 101k low and 148k high, quite a bit of variance. As for Gorseval, it's 89k low and 124k high, also nice variance. Other bosses are even more forgiving, Cairn has 104k low and 200k high and Vale Guardian is 78k low and 130k high

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

And that's why you don't start with those bosses. A full wing 1 training with new players is not smart. It's rather stupid. Get Vale Guard done and then head to W4 or something related like Escort or CA. Gorseval is one of the easier bosses, yes but as you already stated you need a certain dps threshold. Therefore it makes more sense to acclimatize players to raiding first which is showing bosses where mechanics are more important. Once people get used to the overall raid feeling and the awareness for mechanics they'll have no problem to assure DPS for stricter situations.

But it would make it alot easier for those players to learn raiding if they would use like 1 hour of their time to study their own class/build/rotation before the actual raid.

Same thing with irl hobbies aswell, if you start boxing you will first train all kind of basics like how to stand, how to move, basic of punches etc. You dont start boxing by entering in ring and fight against some1.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

Gorseval is perfectly doable without high dps you just have to do the encounter "properly", you know those walls around the arena exist for a reason.... In general you don't need insanely high dps to succeed in Raids and gw2raidar is nice proof of that, if "max dps" was even required to beat Raids then we wouldn't see such difference between high and low.

Twin Largos dps numbers are 101k low and 148k high, quite a bit of variance. As for Gorseval, it's 89k low and 124k high, also nice variance. Other bosses are even more forgiving, Cairn has 104k low and 200k high and Vale Guardian is 78k low and 130k high

So for gorseval, if every support does 2k dps, you would need 13.5k from every dps player. Ppl already said that its wrong to expect 10k dps from a trainee ^^

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

Which prove my point, raids are badly designed and push players to look for more dps in order to reduce the impact of the encounter mechanisms. Ideally, players shouldn't be able to go throught raid content via DPS, but it end up being just what they do. Which ensnare us in a meta fully oriented toward dps, leaving close to no room for build diversity.

"Phasing" some boss through sheer dps should be considered an exploit, because it is an exploit, by doing this you do exploit a hole making the encounter "easier" by reducing the mechanism you should have to face. I don't even understand why the raid developpement team even allowed such thing to happen. DPS should never be the deciding factor to win an encounter, never. When it does, it just mean that the design of the encounter is flawed and need to be looked at.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

Gorseval is perfectly doable without high dps you just have to do the encounter "properly", you know those walls around the arena exist for a reason.... In general you don't need insanely high dps to succeed in Raids and gw2raidar is nice proof of that, if "max dps" was even required to beat Raids then we wouldn't see such difference between high and low.

Twin Largos dps numbers are 101k low and 148k high, quite a bit of variance. As for Gorseval, it's 89k low and 124k high, also nice variance. Other bosses are even more forgiving, Cairn has 104k low and 200k high and Vale Guardian is 78k low and 130k high

So for gorseval, if every support does 2k dps, you would need 13.5k from every dps player. Ppl already said that its wrong to expect 10k dps from a trainee ^^

That assumes the supports do a good job at... supporting. But in any case the damage depends on the build used, different builds have different damage potentials, if I cared about dps of others (I only care about mine and try to personally improve) I'd make sure the "trainees" reach the 30% of gw2raidar damage for their respective builds (again assuming the supports are doing a good job) for Gorseval only Condi Weaver and Power Daredevil do more than 13.5k, so I think it's unreasonable to ask for that of anyone that doesn't play those builds. 10k dps is a good number for Gorseval

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

And that's why you don't start with those bosses. A full wing 1 training with new players is not smart. It's rather stupid. Get Vale Guard done and then head to W4 or something related like Escort or CA. Gorseval is one of the easier bosses, yes but as you already stated you need a certain dps threshold. Therefore it makes more sense to acclimatize players to raiding first which is showing bosses where mechanics are more important. Once people get used to the overall raid feeling and the awareness for mechanics they'll have no problem to assure DPS for stricter situations.

But it would make it alot easier for those players to learn raiding if they would use like 1 hour of their time to study their own class/build/rotation before the actual raid.

Same thing with irl hobbies aswell, if you start boxing you will first train all kind of basics like how to stand, how to move, basic of punches etc. You dont start boxing by entering in ring and fight against some1.

Wrong -while learning something like boxing (or any other "1v1" or "team v team" sport), you're still looking for sparrings to participate in.Also just like in real life, people learn on their own pace and screaming at them that they need to 'git better' gives no positive results by itself.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

Gorseval is perfectly doable without high dps you just have to do the encounter "properly", you know those walls around the arena exist for a reason.... In general you don't need insanely high dps to succeed in Raids and gw2raidar is nice proof of that, if "max dps" was even required to beat Raids then we wouldn't see such difference between high and low.

Twin Largos dps numbers are 101k low and 148k high, quite a bit of variance. As for Gorseval, it's 89k low and 124k high, also nice variance. Other bosses are even more forgiving, Cairn has 104k low and 200k high and Vale Guardian is 78k low and 130k high

So for gorseval, if every support does 2k dps, you would need 13.5k from every dps player. Ppl already said that its wrong to expect 10k dps from a trainee ^^

That assumes the supports do a good job at... supporting. But in any case the damage depends on the build used, different builds have different damage potentials, if I cared about dps of others (I only care about mine and try to personally improve) I'd make sure the "trainees" reach the 30% of gw2raidar damage for their respective builds (again assuming the supports are doing a good job) for Gorseval only Condi Weaver and Power Daredevil do more than 13.5k, so I think it's unreasonable to ask for that of anyone that doesn't play those builds. 10k dps is a good number for Gorseval

Dude what! Only weaver and DD can do more than that? Wut?

Edit: Its totally normal and not tryhard at all to have 15-20k total dps and 27k-30k phase dps at gorseval.And again that 10k dps that i was talking earlier was a phase dps.

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@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:Dude what! Only weaver and DD can do more than that? Wut?

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-15429Power Daredevil does 13590 and Condi Weaver 15070, all others are under 13500. Again, talking about the lowest tier on raidar (30%) which shows the bottom players in dps. The top players (99%) obviously do way more than 13.5k on any build chosen. We are talking about the minimum, which should also be the number for trainees to aim for. They won't reach it, they are new after all, but should be close enough. If some trainee joins as Power Daredevil and only does 9k then there is a problem, because that build can do 9k just by auto-attacking. Anything close to 12k is fine by me for a Power Daredevil that has a low minimum of 13.5k.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:Dude what! Only weaver and DD can do more than that? Wut?

Power Daredevil does 13590 and Condi Weaver 15070, all others are under 13500. Again, talking about the lowest tier on raidar (30%) which shows the bottom players in dps. The top players (99%) obviously do way more than 13.5k on any build chosen. We are talking about the minimum, which should also be the number for trainees to aim for. They won't reach it, they are new after all, but should be close enough. If some trainee joins as Power Daredevil and only does 9k then there is a problem, because that build can do 9k just by auto-attacking. Anything close to 12k is fine by me for a Power Daredevil that has a low minimum of 13.5k.

Yes. I was talking about phase dps. 10k phase dps is low. If players phase dps is 10k, his total dps would be close to 4k

That 13.5k that you mentioned would be around 20-22k phase deeps i guess which is perfectly fine from a trainee.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Yes. I was talking about phase dps. 10k phase dps is low. If players phase dps is 10k, his total dps would be close to 4k

That 13.5k that you mentioned would be around 20-22k phase deeps i guess which is perfectly fine from a trainee.

Such players are not ready for both - mechanics & dps and therefore it is better to learn mechanics and to avoid/follow them first on bosses where dps really doesn't matter and when they are adjusted to what it's meant to raid they should take the next hurdle which is decent dps + mechanics. To focus on dps first will lead to nothing because people will constantly kiss the earth which equals to 0 dps anyways. But I understand you, we had a guild mate in our static who - although he was friendly - complained about the dps of the others (he was way over 90% benchmark) while 1-3 people dying to Sabetha's flame wall without having to deal with the platform mechanic neither throwing to late nor being the chosen ones to jump. Dps was increasing when everyone was familiar with the encounter and very fast we skipped the 75% flame wall etc. and very soon we did her with the achievement. Same for Dhuum when W5 came out many months later.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

Which prove my point, raids are badly designed and push players to look for more dps in order to reduce the impact of the encounter mechanisms. Ideally, players shouldn't be able to go throught raid content via DPS, but it end up being just what they do. Which ensnare us in a meta fully oriented toward dps, leaving close to no room for build diversity.

You are right. Perfect mechanics + dps should be required. Currently only mechanics + garbage dps is required which results in decent players facerolling the content since bosses just die before they do something.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:Gorseval is perfectly doable without high dps you just have to do the encounter "properly", you know those walls around the arena exist for a reason....That reason, as far as i know, is "make players kill themselves by attempting this mechanic". Honestly, in my experience, it's much easier to teach players to increase their dps enough so they can do no updrafts, than teach them how to do updrafts properly and without messing up on 3rd updraft.Which, by the way, makes that one mechanic a failure of design.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:If person has 30kp but group wants 70kp they have accessed the content and will be turned down without knowing what their skill level is i should have been more clear so it was not to be assumed that person trying to join group would have 0kp. In alot of cases some raid bosses are easy enough where a person can pick up on mehcanics on the first or 2nd run through. Depends on the role they are playing. In the case of a dps role which is generally the easiest role to take i think that immidately turning some one down just because of a lower or lesser kp value than requested makes the whole system a bit stupid. Considering ive had people with 200+ kp stepping in oils on demios. >_>

Of course, but where do you set the limit. My former raid squad could easily carry 3-4 players at Cairn although we weren't a high skilled speed run group just a static with routine experience. Sometimes we took players with us for free and I'm sure we weren't the only one so other players can profit although most lfgs want to have a certain amount of KPs/LIs.In pugs it's harder to set a limit and with only letting people participate that have KPs you lower the probability of a failure. I mean I had enough low + high KPs runs where the squad disbanded because we couldn't get sh_t done. And all of these runs are very frustrating -
for everyone tryharding
- because you as an individual know that you are not responsible for the consistent failure. And since one isn't the only one it is just logical that you try to use a measurement of experience as entry barrier to ensure that no failure will occur. Seriously, I even hated it in my static to wipe more than 2 times on mediocre bosses and even worse wiping on easy bosses - wiping on Cairn, MO or Samarog is a shame! High KP groups
are not
for learning or training. They are built to achieve a smooth and quick run a.k.a. "Hello! Ready? Go! Bye bye!" To teach someone even if it is one single person does not belong into those groups - every minute lost is wasted time because every single member of the group usually guarantees the kill in one go.

Yes thought based on my experience or maybe i just look at all the wrong times i often see more high kp requirement groups than i see normal pug runs or training runs like alot more.

Like i said dont think its the entire problem its just something that has happened as a result of people striving to achieve that success its kind of a loop thing that circles back around.

At this point i only do runs with a group of friends not because i dont know the content just because i know at least ill be able to play the content as im some one who does not have high kp on some of these bosses yet despite knowing how the mechanics work on them having cleared them multiple times. We are not the best group and some of the people in the group are very much still at the training level but in any case its just like "oh well" either you

  • Know people who will get you in
  • Hope you can find trainings for the things you want to do or clear around the times you can play
  • Or just dont play the content

This is my end game experience of gw2 and i was it was a bit more open just within the game itself but that cant be helped.Like ive said there have also been instances where people show up with 200kp legendary armor etc etc and still make mistakes as if they have never played the content before.

  • Why are you getting knocked off demios's lower play form
  • Why are you stepping in oil
  • Did you just stand on spikes at MO????LOL

Im pretty casual so it takes a while for me to get frustrated usually the first several times things like this happen its pretty funny to me at least.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@"Nephalem.8921" said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

Basically this.

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