It's Time To Address Infiltrator's Arrow

[Monkey See.1498]

Thief Shortbow 5 easily outclasses every other profession's weapon 5 skill in terms of just how much it swings games. It is objectively the strongest weapon skill in the game in terms of game impact. I think once Shortbow 5 is addressed, maybe limiting it to 450 units, we can see thieves moved into a more fair role where they can be more consistent 1v1ers and team damage dealers.

If you put all the weapon in the game skills side by side it is not possible to argue that Infiltrator's Arrow hasn't singlehandedly won more conquest matches on it's own than any other weapon skill. That is objectively overpowered conpared to every other class weapon skill. It's like old mesmer portal in terms of how OP Portal is over other utilities but in terms of weapon scale. As overpowered Portal was for utility slots, Infiltrator's Arrow is for weapon skills. The ratio is identical. Portal got rebalanced for being heads and shoulders above all other utility skills and singlehandedly winning more games than any of them. It's time to give Infiltrator's Arrow the same treatment.

Do Guardian collective use of Line of Warding win whole games the way the collective use of shortbow 5 carries thief? Does Ranger's collective use of any of barrage win entire games the way shortbow 5 carries thief? Does Engineer Rifle 5? No. Nothing in the game comes close. It's time to nerf Infiltrators arrow. Besides this will actually be a buff for Daredevil as the actual speed increases with Unhindered Combatant matter plus DP daredevil being able to use heartseeker for mobility and Unhindered Combatant will put it back in the meta.

Before you respond ask yourself a few questions and include those in your response:

1. Has a thief's collective use of Infiltrator's Arrow not won more games of conquest than any other weapon skill by a massive margin? If this is true it MUST be nerfed.
2. Does thief with Infiltrator's Arrow not have completely unsurpassed mobility? Is there anything that truly competes with thief mobility? If not this MUST be nerfed.
3. Isn't the HEALTH and FUN of the entire game mode not more important than this one weapon set? If yes then it MUST be nerfed.

[saerni.2584]

To have “unsurpassed mobility” that thief has to burn their entire initiative pool and probably a utility on top of that.

The thief will arrive with 5 seconds to spare because most other specs have mobility options that are only slightly worse.

Thief mobility may be “best in class” but there are plenty of other builds that can keep up.

[Crab Fear.1624]

FIrst....450 units? LOL you can't even go from the ground to the ledge top at khylo with that range.

Comparing classes with different roles does not strengthen your arguments.

Thief has all but been concreted into the mobile sidekick.

To make a cut into mobility we are going to need changes to other weapon skills, boosts in damage, health, access to stability and protection naturally.

Traits that boost vitality even more or toughness.

The arrow would be the last thing to touch.

So, no it's not TIME to address the arrow.

But, realistically, you are just going to make a weaker, pet-less ranger.

You talk about short bow 5, but what else did you praise?

Exactly nothing.

Because thief has been crafted, molded, changed, re-polished into this mobile...sidekick.

Mesmer=/=Thief, so just because they (the mesmers) get nerfed or things they had (which were broke in conquest) taken away, doesn't mean thief gets the same treatment.

The use of the skill is 50% of our base resource pool.

I saw guardian, Mesmer, ranger, and engineer. All of those bring different things to the table.

Thief is SUPPOSED to be UNSURPASSED in mobility.

This is INTENDED.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

@Monkey See.1498 said:

1. Has a thief's collective use of Infiltrator's Arrow not won more games of conquest than any other weapon skill by a massive margin? If this is true it MUST be nerfed.
2. Does thief with Infiltrator's Arrow not have completely unsurpassed mobility? Is there anything that truly competes with thief mobility? If not this MUST be nerfed.
3. Isn't the HEALTH and FUN of the entire game mode not more important than this one weapon set? If yes then it MUST be nerfed.

1. There is no way anyone has that sort of data. From what ive seen Infiltrators arrow mainly is used for decapping and z axis teleports. Lots of other builds are capable of decapping, and many have access to similar teleports just on longer cd.
2. Having class roles and strengths is intended. Mesmer, engi, soulbeast all have very good mobility, thief having better doesnt make theirs any less important. If you want to talk about being unsurpassed in specific roles, look at FB and scourge. 0 classes have comparable group support and boon corrupt.
3. In all the time ive played being frustrated with design/balance, Infiltrators arrow has never been the cause. I think you might be with the minority in thinking that this skill ruins the game.

[White Kitsunee.4620]

This is just silly.You want to take away the only thing keeping their in the meta without offering anything back.

If you want people to agree with you then you need to make them excited not angry.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I never liked how broken infiltrators arrow was, but teef would need some good buffs to compensate since as you say it is so class defining.I would start with:sb5 - teleport 450 units and create a 5 sec smoke fieldremove one initiative from 3-5 sb skills

[Ragnar.4257]

What's even the point of having different classes if you insist that they all function exactly the same?

How about we remove all classes and builds, and there's 1 class called "class" and 1 build called "build" with 10 skills called "1", "2", "3" etc. That way its totally fair!

Some classes are meant to be mobile and slippery but fragile, others are meant to be slow but powerful.

[alain.1659]

Nope. Other professions have the options to get mobility specific builds/skills. They do not. Why? Because there are more profitable roles for them. What role did you have in mind for thief in this meta?

You seem like a good fellow and honestly try to find another build for the thief, that is cool. But instead of nerfing shortbow, make other options as viable as shortbow so that thief would want to get them. Other builds and weapons are not played because they are not that good in this meta.

[Dantheman.3589]

Do u really want de to be meta or maybe full tank 1v1 staff thief lol?

[Dreams.3128]

Thief Infiltration Arrow has done nothing for me and my games. Absolutely squat. My games do not swing because of a thief. My games swing because of the brainless AOE spam at mid or the trucks that are now known as side noders ramming any one that doesn't butt heads with them equally.

[mindcircus.1506]

The fact that you believe all classes weapon 5 options must be equal means you don't understand balance very well at all.

[Ryan.9387]

"a more fair role where they can be more consistent 1v1ers and team damage dealers."

Go make a thief and play it until you hit plat 2, then come back and offer your opinion on the class design. You will have perspective on how the class design for thief works. If you are right, your journey to plat 2 will be shortened by liberal use of sb5.

[UNOwen.7132]

It should be addressed yes. Its a skill so powerful and so game-warping, the entire thief class has been warped around it. Thief is a class that is incapable of fighting in teamfights, and bad (quite possibly the worst class in fact) at 1v1s and 2v2s, all in exchange for having unparalleled map mobility that swings games around. As long as it exists, thief will remain a class for which the second P in "PvP" stands for Points. That being said, I dont think nerfing it to 450 is wise. Especially not without big compensation buffs.

Instead, Id rather have either thieves lose the ability to weaponswap in sPvP (lets be real here, you only ever swap to shortbow anyway, so all this does is force you to decide to have the shortbow mobility, or a weaponset that is capable at dueling) or an elite spec that disables weaponswapping (the latter gives people a choice, but would have to be an elite spec that single-handedly carries thief via traits, which is inelegant if not dangerous. The former takes away the choice, but makes buffing thief a lot easier). Both with very generous compensation buffs of course (at the bare minimum Sword and Dagger AA nerfs undone, Three Round Bursts initiative cost back to 4, nerf on pulmonary impact undone).

[Kageseigi.2150]

I definitely see where you're coming from, and I agree that Infiltrator's Arrow has caused the Thief a lot of grief. If you check out my suggestion about it in the Unkittening the Thief thread, you'll see that I'm not a fan of having the Shortbow absolutely required for PvP as well as my own take on what should happen.

I must disagree with some of your statements and suggestions, though...

First of all, reducing the range to 450 would do nothing more than absolutely destroy the Thief even more. Why? Because even if the range was halved, the vertical mobility of Infiltrator's Arrow would still be necessary to use shortcuts up platforms and such. All that would do is cut the rate of travel from Point A to Point B. It wouldn't buff the Thief at all by making other weapon sets more appealing relative to the Shortbow. There would have to be MAJOR improvements to other weapon sets just to compete with a devastated Infiltrator's Arrow.

Secondly, let's look at what Infiltrator's Arrow actually does and what it costs. All it does is allow a Thief to get somewhere faster with it than without it. But it requires the use of initiative. If you use it twice in a row, you're really handicapped (especially if you don't have Trickery). If you use it three times in a row, you are absolutely exhausted combat-wise wherever you end up. That means that you are only not at risk if you ran to a literal empty point. If you did use it to actually enter a fight, good luck with that.

Thirdly, running to empty points is not what I'd call game-swaying. It's literally a cleanup action. And it also requires poor rotation/coordination/composition by the enemy team. Thieves punish mistakes, they don't impose their will. Other professions DO actually impose their will on the battlefield. Some professions/builds can shut down a Thief's decapping ability while still providing support on team fights at Mid on some maps.

Fourthly, Infiltrator's Arrow is used as much as an escape tool as it is to travel across the map. It already takes two full uses to get out of a Ranger's range if starting from melee. The Thief is really squishy, so it NEEDS escapability. Some builds don't have evasion, so mobility may be their most useful means of survival.

Fifthly, most Thieves are mobile because that's their only real choice to play an effective role in Conquest. Other professions can also build to move like greased lightning... they just don't because they have other builds that are more useful for Conquest than simple mobility. The Thief isn't really THAT much faster, and they certainly don't have the lethality or sustainability of other near-as-mobile professions. Besides, even if a Thief did have such superior mobility, so what? The other team can just take a Thief also... that's perfect balance.

Lastly, while helpful, mobility is the least important thing in Conquest... and the smaller the map, the less important it is. Lethality, sustainability, coordination... they are so, so much more important. Mobility means absolutely nothing if there's nowhere to go. Mobility means nothing if your teammates repeatedly split up and fight off point. Mobility means nothing if you've got two enemies chasing you around the entire map the whole match because your team can't hold their own in a 4v3.

With that being said, I'm of the personal opinion that the Thief can become more effective as a fighter without becoming overpowered even if it retains its current mobility. As in the other thread, I'd suggest baselining the mobility of Infiltrator's Arrow (replacing it with another skill). Thus, the Thief would be free to take a second combat weapon set, and be able to switch fighting styles mid-fight. The Thief wouldn't be more lethal, but it would be more flexible. And that's really what the Thief is all about, I think.

[Queen.5837]

This is not a problematic skill at all, because shortbow is a weapon set that is designed for utility and mobility is not only a major part of utility, it is also a defining feature of thief. When you think of weapon skill balance, you shouldn't look at weapon sets of other classes to decide whether it's broken or not. Instead you should look at the role of this particular weapon within the class, eg sword for sustained fights and pistol offhand for controlling fights by blind, stealth and interupts.

Mobility alone doesn't win pvp games. Good thief players read the map and go to the right place at the right time with the help of shortbow and shadowstep, whereas bad players die in 1v1 and teamfights they are not supposed to be in.

If you think the utility of shortbow is too much to justify having such a strong shadowstep skill, maybe you should look at the other shortbow skill and tune them down because I honestly think shortbow 5 is a defining skill of this weapon and is what makes thief at least competitive in pvp.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@saerni.2584 said:To have “unsurpassed mobility” that thief has to burn their entire initiative pool and probably a utility on top of that.

The thief will arrive with 5 seconds to spare because most other specs have mobility options that are only slightly worse.

Thief mobility may be “best in class” but there are plenty of other builds that can keep up.

Any map is not big enough to actually tell the difference in mobility.

[Monkey See.1498]

It's still time to address Infiltrator's Arrow.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Nope!Its fine

[Monkey See.1498]

Bump. Infiltrator's Arrow still must be deleted. Only then can thief finally be buffed into being what it was always intended to be.

[Curennos.9307]

I don't want it deleted or gutted - but it would be nice to have the option, somehow, of not taking shortbow and not having my mobility gutted unless I take DE -> rifle. IIRC someone mentioned a while back that anet could look into adding options for additional thief f-skills combined with small nerfs to a few weapon skills in a way that gives thief some innate bonuses (like mobility) that aren't attached to a weapon.

Edit: Clarification. I want to change things so that thief has the same amount of mobility, part of it just comes from different places. A class's place in the meta should not depend on a single skill as heavily as thief does on SB5. This is terrible math, but...say anet halved the cost and range of SB5, then gave thief a new f3 skill that cost 3 ini and let the thief travel 450 units. Thief can now get around and do stuff to some degree without SB5. Mind, that's an EXAMPLE and I imagine it'd take much more balancing than that.

[Yasai.3549]

Shortbow is fine.

Nerf stealth thanks.

[Sobx.1758]

@Monkey See.1498 said:Bump. Infiltrator's Arrow still must be deleted. Only then can thief finally be buffed into being what it was always intended to be.

lmao, no.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@"Monkey See.1498" said:

1. Has a thief's collective use of Infiltrator's Arrow not won more games of conquest than any other weapon skill by a massive margin? If this is true it MUST be nerfed.
2. Does thief with Infiltrator's Arrow not have completely unsurpassed mobility? Is there anything that truly competes with thief mobility? If not this MUST be nerfed.
3. Isn't the HEALTH and FUN of the entire game mode not more important than this one weapon set? If yes then it MUST be nerfed.

So... this is the sort of post someone makes when they are looking through the window from the outside and can only see one thing about something that seems so good or powerful.

1. No. Thief's primary use of the Infiltrator's Arrow is to go far, and decap. The keyword here is specifically to decap. In the previous meta's, he was unable to 1v1 without extreme difficulty, and if he did win fights he'd waste too much time, and likely get killed for it when his enemy's team decides to circle around and come deal with him. If all the thief did was zip around the map and decap with infiltrator's arrow - you still won't gurantee a win for your team. You're just being annoying, and you're turning the fight into a 4v5. Because you are off doing bone fuck nothing for your team. Even as powerful as the ability seems on paper. There is still a potent COST to it for thief. It burns his initiative. The same resource thief needs in order to be able to fight effectively. if the thief mass spammed his infiltrator's arrow to zip around and enter the fight. He's now entering the fight a dead man.
2. Yes... there are other abilities that do in fact compete with the mobility. The portal which allows you to say fuck the navmesh, and teleport through walls, five stories up, and across chasms. The multiple jump abilities that also do not suffer navigation and line of sight checks. The fields that lays down super speed with nearly no cost. Revenant's Seven strike ninjitsu bullshit that can be used on some random objects and life lying around. Similar to Soul Beast. Infiltrator's Arrow is best in class. But not overbearing.
3. This is called a loaded question. So the question is invalidated from the get-go. By the same logic it can be turned on it's head by saying "Is the health and fun of the game more important than one whiny soul?" The health and fun of the game is important. But it's also important that all aspects of the game is fun. Including classes and their playstyles that players hate. There's always going to be some element of a game that is seen as unfair, and has been left that way for a very good reason. The player is not always right, nor is a player's opinion the authority on matters. When the player does not concider the designs that went into what made the class what it is.

[Sindrener.1592]

buff thief