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Offense & Defense


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I've posted about this numerous times, but after doing a lot of research I've had some eye-openers.

"Damage scales more than Defense, so defensive stats are mostly useless."

This appears to be true on the surface, but actually isn't. Defense is only two stats that are weighted more or less equally, while (power) offense is three stats with distribution significantly weighted toward one of them (Power.)

So the real contest here is to look at Berserker's vs Soldier's and see what the tradeoff is in terms of damage and defense. This spreadsheet does exactly that:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xXxJl1yTzgVeeLtOdPpBk9nWyXmyhvJ1hGcEtnQ1H34/edit#gid=0

Berserker deals around 50% more damage than Soldiers, but has less than half the effective HP. Combining that with healing skills and dodging, this means that defensive stats are actually a lot more effective than people believe them to be. The key thing to remember is that you never want to sacrifice Power for defense unless you're full condi or playing a full support build in a group. But taking some Toughness/Vitality instead of Precison/Ferocity actually isn't a bad tradeoff even in PvE and especially for solo/open world builds. People love to say "get gud and dodge moar", but this is kind of a brainless meme. If you're playing solo in the open world and regularly engaging multiple mobs - you'll eat plenty of hits. Bolstering your defense even a little bit can help you maintain battlefield control and makes it much less likely you'll get downed. The other thing that people seem to forget is that, while mastering dodging is very important, it also interrupts your outgoing damage. This means there are a lot of circumstances where absorbing damage is more efficient than dodging. Vitality + Toughness allow you to get away with doing that a bit more.

This is why so many sets have Power primary. I think making a Berserker primary with some Soldier or Valkyrie pieces mixed in is probably the best way to play Power in both PvE and PvP in many cases (yes, better than Maruader's) - you sacrifice no Power while having a healthy mix of Precison, Ferocity, Vitality, and Toughness.

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I used to see it the same way for a long time for the same reasons you mentioned. But over the years I have kind of changed my mind and now think that both playstyles are equally viable. Which works best for you is more or less personal preference and depends on your own skill, the class and your exact build. The thing is, both sides can bring countless examples of situations where their approach is better or at least seems to be, and can even back it up with numbers. So in my opinion, both or viable. Therefore I do agree with you that saying "Full offensive is the ONLY viable way to play" is nonsense. It's one viable way to play.

That said, personally, I still prefer your approach and take some vitality via Marauder stats for all of my builds - except for warrior and necro, since they start with a large base health pool. Most of my builds also have some additional toughness (usually between 200-300), with the exceptions being the heavy armor classes and my fractal builds. In fractals, there's usually enough healing and protection that I prefer to switch the armor with toughness for additional Marauder pieces, gaining both damage and some additional vitality. I also don't have additional toughness on my Sc/WH FA Tempest, since that has 250 toughness from Earth-2, a lot of blinds, around 40-50% uptime on protection and 100% uptime on regen and vigor, and healing from auras.

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I’ve played in both soldiers and berserkers and found that I had more survivability with berserkers. The best defense in this game is having a good offense. The less time something has to kill you, the safer you will be. Defensive stats do not offer enough sustain to make up for the damage loss.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:I’ve played in both soldiers and berserkers and found that I had more survivability with berserkers. The best defense in this game is having a good offense. The less time something has to kill you, the safer you will be. Defensive stats do not offer enough sustain to make up for the damage loss.

No, that's the point I'm making. I used to think this too, but as you long as you don't give up Power, you actually gain more sustain than you lose in offense. I'm not necessarily saying it's always objectively better, but it's certainly more competitive than people think it is and is arguably optimal depending on how you're playing.

For example, on my Revenant, I have near 100% fury uptime and Rolling Mists keeps crit chance so high that a lot of Precision is totally wasted and is much more useful going into Toughness/Vitality (or really any other stat.)

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I’ve played in both soldiers and berserkers and found that I had more survivability with berserkers. The best defense in this game is having a good offense. The less time something has to kill you, the safer you will be. Defensive stats do not offer enough sustain to make up for the damage loss.

No, that's the point I'm making. I used to think this too, but as you long as you don't give up Power, you actually gain more sustain than you lose in offense. I'm not necessarily saying it's always objectively better, but it's certainly more competitive than people think it is and is arguably optimal depending on how you're playing.

Not from my experience. One of the easier ways for you to see this is to find something you can barely do solo in berserkers (e.g. killing an elite/champion) and then do it again in soldiers. Because if what you state it true, you'd have an easier time in soldiers.

Edit: Just want to point out that I’m referring to strictly PvE. WvW is different depending on your class.

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You also need to take into account resustain, because at some point you will meet the threshold where minimum damage and maximum defense meet resulting in an endless stalemate.

Given resustain can significantly affect your effective hp, in many cases it can outright trump certain defensive gear/amulet choices (like warrior signet f.ex). And that's not even taking into account healing power scaling.

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The more toughness you have, the more of a target you are, especially in a group. I suppose good if you're the tank, but otherwise, you're better off with more vitality ie, Mauraders, than with toughness. I am currently only full beserkers on my Reaper and Soulbeast. The rest I have Mauraders (except Mirage, which is Vipers).

The most important defense in this game is learning to DODGE.

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@whoeverxwins.1279 said:The more toughness you have, the more of a target you are, especially in a group. I suppose good if you're the tank, but otherwise, you're better off with more vitality ie, Mauraders, than with toughness. I am currently only full beserkers on my Reaper and Soulbeast. The rest I have Mauraders (except Mirage, which is Vipers).

The most important defense in this game is learning to DODGE.

No that's actually overstated. Toughness only generates threat against certain enemies, and this is a non issue if you're doing PvE solo.

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@whoeverxwins.1279 said:The more toughness you have, the more of a target you are, especially in a group. I suppose good if you're the tank, but otherwise, you're better off with more vitality ie, Mauraders, than with toughness. I am currently only full beserkers on my Reaper and Soulbeast. The rest I have Mauraders (except Mirage, which is Vipers).

The most important defense in this game is learning to DODGE.

No that's actually overstated. Toughness only generates threat against certain enemies, and this is a non issue if you're doing PvE solo.

You are still way better off with more vitality against a bad dodge than toughness. And toughness won't save someone who insists on standing in AOE rings.

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@whoeverxwins.1279 said:

@whoeverxwins.1279 said:The more toughness you have, the more of a target you are, especially in a group. I suppose good if you're the tank, but otherwise, you're better off with more vitality ie, Mauraders, than with toughness. I am currently only full beserkers on my Reaper and Soulbeast. The rest I have Mauraders (except Mirage, which is Vipers).

The most important defense in this game is learning to DODGE.

No that's actually overstated. Toughness only generates threat against certain enemies, and this is a non issue if you're doing PvE solo.

You are still way better off with more vitality against a bad dodge than toughness. And toughness won't save someone who insists on standing in AOE rings.

They aren't in a competition with each other. They actually are about equally effective (though with different applications) and synergize really well with each other. Toughness's benefit is that it increases the effectiveness of healing. Vitality's is that it helps counter condition damage. But they both increase the effect of the other. Having a small to moderate amount of both tends to work better than having only one of the two. It's exactly like Precision and Ferocity.

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The 50% damage bonus helps burst down mobs and end fights quicker. That generally means less mechanics, stress and (enemy inflicted) damage all around.

If you want to point the finger anywhere, it's that we have enough base vitality and toughness to make sets like berserkers and vipers viable (and, therefore, meta).

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@Westenev.5289 said:The 50% damage bonus helps burst down mobs and end fights quicker. That generally means less mechanics, stress and (enemy inflicted) damage all around.

If you want to point the finger anywhere, it's that we have enough base vitality and toughness to make sets like berserkers and vipers viable (and, therefore, meta).

You.... really aren't understanding my point.

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There are several important things to know when talking about defense in Guild Wars 2.

The game tries to keep a fast pace in combat while making sure that active defense is rewarded more than passive defense (allegedly). This type of design choice is particularly noted with the Nerfs to Defy Pain on the Warrior some time ago, notably on the competitive modes, yet there are better options in PVE as well. However, the game does not like to provide much access to extremely powerful defensive skills. I'll pick on Warrior again just a little bit, but Shield Stance on the shield "5" is normally on a 25 second cool down for a 3-second guard. You're quite vulnerable for a whole 22 seconds before you can block for 3 seconds another time.

That said, there's a pretty good balance between choosing to dodge something or choosing to use a skill to evade it in some fashion to otherwise mitigate damage. However this particular concept differs greatly in methodology between PvE and the competitive modes at large. There are few individual attacks that you would consider dodging in PvE. Instead you would typically Dodge to avoid an AoE on the ground that you cannot run out of quickly enough. At least for me.

PvP & WvW are a whole other issue - there, a player needs to be recognizing the opposing players most dangerous moves. Typically you need to dodge someone's CC in order to avoid death by CC locking or just by the damage you'll take after being cc'd the first time at all. Unless you're fighting a champion in PVE, most of the mobs hits aren't going to be life or death. However in those competitive modes, literally every strike an opponent makes against you puts you precipitously close to defeat much faster.

Another thing to keep in mind in this conversation is the idea of sustain as well, although not specifically relating to the primary heal skill's activation. Many, but not all, builds have some method of keeping you in the fight without having to spend the time to cast your healing skill. It could even be bolstered by food that allows you to lifesteal or regenerate over time Etc. Time spent waiting to be healed is not necessarily a waste by any stretch, but it prolongs the combat, not shortens it.

As far as stats go, I feel like it depends greatly on the game of that you're playing. I'd write more, but its late. Maybe I'll check in tomorrow...

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the problem is that mobs in this game do absolutly rdiculous amounts of damage. 5k autos with zero windup nor animation, oneshots with fast animations that get easily covered with other player's effects so you cant see the visual clues

stacking defense is useless because even if you reduce their damage by 30%, 70% of TOO MUCH is still TOO MUCH. thats why you will always, always be better off killing the mobs as fast as possible so they dont even get to attack you

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Its a braindead meta where nobody looks at defensive stats. I remember looking for a normal open world build on youtube and guess what I find almost everywhere, full berserker with scholar rune. Cant blame players though the mobs in general are very easy they attack and then stand still for a second or two as is the case with most mmos. But if you look at a game like path of exiles defenses and resist are a must and a part of almost every meta build build. Why is that? Because the mobs are aggressive and relentless unlike simply hitting hard they gang up on you and keep at it.

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@"Westenev.5289" said:The 50% damage bonus helps burst down mobs and end fights quicker. That generally means less mechanics, stress and (enemy inflicted) damage all around.

If you want to point the finger anywhere, it's that we have enough base vitality and toughness to make sets like berserkers and vipers viable (and, therefore, meta).

You.... really aren't understanding my point.

I get your point, I just disagree with it - unless a player has ping, fps or irl co-ordination issues, I think most people can get accustomed to playing with baseline vitality, healing power and toughness by learning to manipulate class traits and having a general awareness of positioning and when to dodge. Intentionally adding "tanky" stats via armour is generally a bad tradeoff (in PvE), since mobs begin to die (sometimes noticably) slower. More mobs = more damage.

At the risk of sounding haughty, "git gud l2dodge" isn't a bad meme, since Gw2 combat puts a heavy emphasis on avoiding heavy burst damage.

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:I’ve played in both soldiers and berserkers and found that I had more survivability with berserkers. The best defense in this game is having a good offense. The less time something has to kill you, the safer you will be. Defensive stats do not offer enough sustain to make up for the damage loss.

No, that's the point I'm making.
I used to think this too, but as you long as you don't give up Power, you actually gain more sustain than you lose in offense.
I'm not necessarily saying it's always objectively better, but it's certainly more competitive than people think it is and is arguably optimal depending on how you're playing.

For example, on my Revenant, I have near 100% fury uptime and Rolling Mists keeps crit chance so high that a lot of Precision is totally wasted and is much more useful going into Toughness/Vitality (or really any other stat.)

I love it. This coming from the person who has made following posts in the past (and more, I'm just to lazy to go back further):https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/50192/we-really-need-rebalanced-attributes/p1https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/48480/do-you-think-defensive-attributes-are-generally-underpowered-in-pve#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/23477/condi-balance-paradigm#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/11229/attribute-rework-cleanup#latestetc.

In all of which you have always complained that defensive stats are to weak and need buffing, and/or offensive stats are to strong and need nerfing.

People, myself included, always told you that defensive stats are fine (even if not needed for much of the pve in this game) balance wise. Now suddenly you discover the value of defensive stats.

Here is the basic rundown:

  • all PVE content is more than doable without defensive stats. That has nothing to do with the benefits of the defensive stats, but simply with the way the game is made and how defensive skills and active dodging works (and in general is enough to keep a player alive)
  • if a player struggles with a full offensive build, they should and can take some defensive stats. That was never contested
  • defensive stats work just fine in increasing survivability but will not make up for drastic player mistakes
  • some stat combos (like marauder) offer some defence at a low loww of offence (mainly because the offence counterpart berserker is a 3-stat combo)

Metabattle has had a section on open world builds for a long time now. Woodenpotatoes is doing segments on, in his opinion, very good open world and story builds per class (though he focuses on power builds only).

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:Berserker deals around 50% more damage than Soldiers, but has less than half the effective HP. Combining that with healing skills and dodging, this means that defensive stats are actually a lot more effective than people believe them to be.People were telling you this each time you started a new thread, remember?

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@Dawdler.8521 said:TL;DR damage scales up almost 10x from base damage values, stacking toughness and vitality make you survive 1-2 more hits you probably could have dodged.

Reason why some classes can heal 10k every 3-4 sec aoe ._., well one class that is...but it is not needed to play that in this game.... due how dumb and easy is to achieve overperformance.

For my perception it feels game is more towards to over performance builds and classes than actually play well in team wich should be the real balance and design moto.

Players that don’t care with playing those easier way to win with lower effort metas will always have issues in game.

It’s a developer fault for not reaching interesting combat skill design...

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Berserker deals around 50% more damage than Soldiers, but has less than half the effective HP. Combining that with healing skills and dodging, this means that defensive stats are actually a lot more effective than people believe them to be.People were telling you this each time you started a new thread, remember?

In every thread I was asking for theorycrafting on Soldiers vs Berserkers to try to gain clarity and everyone was willing to argue with me without providing any evidence. I finally found it, and yes, the people arguing that defensive stats are better than most players think were right. So, I suppose you could say I've switched sides. Congratulations.

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@"Einlanzer.1627" said:This is why so many sets have Power primary.

To clarify/expand on this, Power is a primary attribute on so many sets because it offers the bulk of the damage boost in the game, Precision and Ferocity combined offer less of a damage boost than Power alone.Calculations:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1006614/#Comment_1006614https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1006649/#Comment_1006649

This is the relevant part:

Base: 24Power vs Vitality/Toughness: 29Precision/Ferocity vs Vitality/Toughness: 36

In that calculation I take a Ranger in full ascended using a Longbow and calculate how many auto-attacks at max range are required to kill themselves. At base values it takes 24 hits.Increasing Power, Vitality and Toughness by 1000 equals 29 hitsIncreasing Precision, Ferocity, Vitality and Toughness by 1000 equals 36 hits (a lot more than Power alone)

This means Precision and Ferocity are terrible stats for damage, if not combined with high Power, this is by design of course, so builds can use multiple attributes and still do damage.

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