[merged] I want to keep using Arc Build Templates... :/

[ZDragon.3046]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Thats not a garbage business practice if you never intended for that service to be part of your business in the first place what on earth are you talking about.Actually, they hoped to have it ready for initial GW2 launch. They just never managed to get to it (and one of the reasons for it was because the launch was rushed - we have Pandas to blame for that). And after launch many things that were supposed to be there but didn't get done due to rushed launch (like

graphics engine performance optimization

) just got abandoned for a loong time.

To be honest I would like to see proof of this. I dont recall such a thing.

This feature was never intended to be part of guild wars 2 originally along with so many other features which likely include

• MountsMounts are a complicated subject. Yes, they did say at some point they won't be in the game at launch, and their attitude towards them later wasn't exactly positive (until they introduced them in PoF). On the other hand, mounts were mentioned as one of the features they wanted to introduce in GW1 (in Utopia) and couldn't due to engine limitations. So, mounts are one of the reasons for why we even have GW2 in the first place.

Thats not how i remember this conversation. I recall when asked about mounts they said it was not technically possible for them to do (at the time) as they thought there was no way that they could get it to work through technical limitations of the game.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:

You are right the correct analogy would beNeighbor allows you to use his wifi till you get your own internet service setup

2 years later

"What do you mean I cant use your wifi anymore? Yours was working just fine for free."Neighbor insist that it was only suppose to be temporary and that you are consuming his bandwidth and that you should get your own now that you are able to do so. He even goes as far to ask if you would like him to help get you started. He ask questions so he can point you at the service plan thats cost effective and one that will work for you needs."But yours is already there why cant i just use yours. I should be able to just keep using yours it works for me. No bob i dont care that your kids cant play candy crush. Whats the new password?"

HM - about analogy.

Let's say you live in a house paying a rent. You ask the owner for internet services and the answer is that he cannot offer you this. A friend is giving you internet for free.

2 years later

The owner tells you that your friend internet line is not allowed anymore in his house. Instead he will provide you internet from his company - now offering internet too. But, the internet connection provided is slower, with a smaler bandwith and it is not free. If the speed and band is not on your liking you can pay extra to upgrade it. But even so, at maximum capacity the circuit will be less performant than what you had for free before.

What you say? Time to find another

game

house?

But this current house has big rooms, a garden, hot water, electricity and many other things other houses may not have.Is a "not perfect internet line" enough of a reason to change house?

I think it just depends on the person but in my case yes unless im forced by some other reason im not going to buy/ live in a house that gets no internet when its something i use on the daily. Imo the interent bill is just as important as the water and electricity bills in 2019. There was a point where i thought otherwise but not so much anymore.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:They could have made same system as arkh and sell it for 3000 gems. They decided to do some fancy stuff that is usless for casual comunity and almost usless for hardcore community (gear storage) and I dont know why. I guess they thought that their product must be diferent then arc but they didnt understand what are the good parts of arc.Amd many players I play with only bought qol updates for real money. Rest was for gold.

As a player with 31 toons the gear storage aspect of this saves me a ton of space in storage. I have had maxed storage since day 1 so this is a big QoL addition for me. Please don't speak for the community.

If you have maxed storage from day 1 you are not a cassual player. And if you have it maxed out I dont know why you need that much space anyway. But good for you.

That's the point. Please speak for your own needs. My answer to your own issue, using in game tools, was more toons and different buildouts. So to say that gear storage doesn't have value may not be true to your solution but does add value to me. Fine with you saying you prefer arc but take issue when blanket statements are made that the solution being provided doesn't help others. I can directly counter you there.

[Healix.5819]

The only problem is that they're missing equipment chat codes. It would also be nice if there was a simple chat command to use the codes, rather than having to go through multiple clicks. If that was implemented, a simple overlay could handle the rest and without needing to break the game like Arc. Their mistake was simply in marketing - the tabs should have been announced after as a convenience upgrade.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:They could have made same system as arkh and sell it for 3000 gems. They decided to do some fancy stuff that is usless for casual comunity and almost usless for hardcore community (gear storage) and I dont know why. I guess they thought that their product must be diferent then arc but they didnt understand what are the good parts of arc.Amd many players I play with only bought qol updates for real money. Rest was for gold.

As a player with 31 toons the gear storage aspect of this saves me a ton of space in storage. I have had maxed storage since day 1 so this is a big QoL addition for me. Please don't speak for the community.

If you have maxed storage from day 1 you are not a cassual player. And if you have it maxed out I dont know why you need that much space anyway. But good for you.

That's the point. Please speak for your own needs. My answer to your own issue, using in game tools, was more toons and different buildouts. So to say that gear storage doesn't have value may not be true to your solution but does add value to me. Fine with you saying you prefer arc but take issue when blanket statements are made that the solution being provided doesn't help others. I can directly counter you there.

Yes. It will save you space. But advantage of extra space has only value if you use that extra space. My chrono has 120 slots and and 100 of that is gear, potions and KPs. I have 20 inventory slots left. When all my gear will go to gear storage I wilk have around 80. Thats great but what will I do with that space? I am not saying that extra slots are not nice. I am saying that they would be better if you needed that space. And chance that you dont need that space is very high because you played without it.

Moor toons doesnt help my problem because that would require to multiply basicaly everything I own by 5. And I havent done anything that gearing for the time I was playing. That means another 8 years of gameplay? Maybe 6 since I am more experianced. That is not a solution.And diferent buildputs.... I think I cannot answer that politely.

[Calistin.6210]

@solemn.9608 said:

@susana.7814 said:

@"yoni.7015" said:Why open another thread? There is an existing one.

Probably because people want to actually be heard.Right on.

> @"Arenanet" said:

At release, each character will get three Build Template tabs, which will be preloaded with their existing equipped builds from PvE, PvP, and WvW. You can swap the contents of the Build Template tabs for use in any game mode or purchase more tabs from the Gem Store.No thanks. I am not going to pay for the full functionality of a function that is already available to everyone; because you took so long to make it that someone, on their own free time, already made a very well functioning build templates add-on with unlimited "tabs". I sincerely hope you don't plan on making the use of this add-on an offense.

I would urge "this is fine" voters to consider that just because you didn't use [omitted title] doesn't mean it wasn't incredibly useful and valuable to many in the gw2 community. You may be siding with a sizable injustice to portions of our community by saying "this is OK" (see footer note/edit)

I can think of another popular MMORPG that, instead of doing this, ended up incorporating add-ons in the game and encouraged making helpful/useful add-ons. You don't need to vouch for the add-on as professionals... but you simply just needed to allow it to exist. Instead, because you guys wanted to do it yourselves,

we're now paying for what we already had easy and consistent access to, because you wanted to monetize it.

Ok, so we get a little perk in saving inventory space, but all I want is to not have this be forced on me. I already have the functionality of build templates, if you disallow that, and enforce your build templates functionality, you are forcing me to buy the inventory slots gained by using your option. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea. But I'm left with no choice but to give you money. Even if I'm willing to do that, I defy that on principle.

Mounts in WvW was one thing. We adjusted to it, even though we did not want to.If you make this pay-for-full-functionality I will lose faith that I shouldn't still have to begin with.

Taking a screenshot of this post & saving it. Why?

Well, you know how it is here.

edit: wording, and: note that if we are still allowed to use [omitted title] after this release, I won't mind so much. I can look past that easily, if this condition is met.

 

Agreed this is some swtor level malarkey where you need to pay to get access to all the UI.......if Anet want to go the whole lets monetize everything f2p route then make the game f2p already and stop double dipping as a b2p game when it's clearly not anymore.

[Obtena.7952]

@Calistin.6210 said:

@solemn.9608 said:

@susana.7814 said:

@"yoni.7015" said:Why open another thread? There is an existing one.

Probably because people want to actually be heard.Right on.

> @"Arenanet" said:

At release, each character will get three Build Template tabs, which will be preloaded with their existing equipped builds from PvE, PvP, and WvW. You can swap the contents of the Build Template tabs for use in any game mode or purchase more tabs from the Gem Store.No thanks. I am not going to pay for the full functionality of a function that is already available to everyone; because you took so long to make it that someone, on their own free time, already made a very well functioning build templates add-on with unlimited "tabs". I sincerely hope you don't plan on making the use of this add-on an offense.

I would urge "this is fine" voters to consider that just because you didn't use [omitted title] doesn't mean it wasn't incredibly useful and valuable to many in the gw2 community. You may be siding with a sizable injustice to portions of our community by saying "this is OK" (see footer note/edit)

I can think of another popular MMORPG that, instead of doing this, ended up incorporating add-ons in the game and encouraged making helpful/useful add-ons. You don't need to vouch for the add-on as professionals... but you simply just needed to allow it to exist. Instead, because you guys wanted to do it yourselves,

we're now paying for what we already had easy and consistent access to, because you wanted to monetize it.

Ok, so we get a little perk in saving inventory space, but all I want is to not have this be forced on me. I already have the functionality of build templates, if you disallow that, and enforce your build templates functionality, you are forcing me to buy the inventory slots gained by using your option. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea. But I'm left with no choice but to give you money. Even if I'm willing to do that, I defy that on principle.

Mounts in WvW was one thing. We adjusted to it, even though we did not want to.If you make this pay-for-full-functionality I will lose faith that I shouldn't still have to begin with.

Taking a screenshot of this post & saving it. Why?

Well, you know how it is here.

edit: wording, and: note that if we are still allowed to use [omitted title] after this release, I won't mind so much. I can look past that easily, if this condition is met.

 

Agreed this is some swtor level malarkey where you need to pay to get access to all the UI.......if Anet want to go the whole lets monetize everything f2p route then make the game f2p already and stop double dipping as a b2p game when it's clearly not anymore.

This doesn't make sense ... Anet has not charged anyone double for any features, items, etc ... released in this game YET. Where is the double dipping happening on this one?

[Calistin.6210]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Calistin.6210 said:

@solemn.9608 said:

@susana.7814 said:

@"yoni.7015" said:Why open another thread? There is an existing one.

Probably because people want to actually be heard.Right on.

> @"Arenanet" said:

At release, each character will get three Build Template tabs, which will be preloaded with their existing equipped builds from PvE, PvP, and WvW. You can swap the contents of the Build Template tabs for use in any game mode or purchase more tabs from the Gem Store.No thanks. I am not going to pay for the full functionality of a function that is already available to everyone; because you took so long to make it that someone, on their own free time, already made a very well functioning build templates add-on with unlimited "tabs". I sincerely hope you don't plan on making the use of this add-on an offense.

I would urge "this is fine" voters to consider that just because you didn't use [omitted title] doesn't mean it wasn't incredibly useful and valuable to many in the gw2 community. You may be siding with a sizable injustice to portions of our community by saying "this is OK" (see footer note/edit)

I can think of another popular MMORPG that, instead of doing this, ended up incorporating add-ons in the game and encouraged making helpful/useful add-ons. You don't need to vouch for the add-on as professionals... but you simply just needed to allow it to exist. Instead, because you guys wanted to do it yourselves,

we're now paying for what we already had easy and consistent access to, because you wanted to monetize it.

Ok, so we get a little perk in saving inventory space, but all I want is to not have this be forced on me. I already have the functionality of build templates, if you disallow that, and enforce your build templates functionality, you are forcing me to buy the inventory slots gained by using your option. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea. But I'm left with no choice but to give you money. Even if I'm willing to do that, I defy that on principle.

Mounts in WvW was one thing. We adjusted to it, even though we did not want to.If you make this pay-for-full-functionality I will lose faith that I shouldn't still have to begin with.

Taking a screenshot of this post & saving it. Why?

Well, you know how it is here.

edit: wording, and: note that if we are still allowed to use [omitted title] after this release, I won't mind so much. I can look past that easily, if this condition is met.

 

Agreed this is some swtor level malarkey where you need to pay to get access to all the UI.......if Anet want to go the whole lets monetize everything f2p route then make the game f2p already and stop double dipping as a b2p game when it's clearly not anymore.

This doesn't make sense ... Anet has not charged anyone double for any features, items, etc ... released in this game YET. Where is the double dipping happening on this one?

F2p games are free to download and play but they have a cash shop where storage space, sometimes UI and other things like this are monetized in a cash shop.

B2p generally was you pay for the game once, it free for life and no cash shop, then they whined we need to eat we poor poor game dev/company so along cash shop in b2p with cosmetics only and then they added storage space etc etc once people got acclimatized to this and then it was UI features and now it's basic mechanics like this.

So that's what I mean by double dipping. If you buy a game you should get all the features and not get nickel and dimed cause they purposely lock out some stuff so they can charge you in a cash shop.

Guess it's why in my old age I am little by little losing interest in "online" games and starting to go back to offline single players that have great stories. I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion in these forum but frankly idc if some of the hardcore fans think I am "entitled". I know I am not as I can see the difference in paying for a game then being nickel and dime on far too many things versus expecting everything for free on a silver platter.

[Obtena.7952]

@Calistin.6210 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Calistin.6210 said:

@solemn.9608 said:

@susana.7814 said:

@"yoni.7015" said:Why open another thread? There is an existing one.

Probably because people want to actually be heard.Right on.

> @"Arenanet" said:

At release, each character will get three Build Template tabs, which will be preloaded with their existing equipped builds from PvE, PvP, and WvW. You can swap the contents of the Build Template tabs for use in any game mode or purchase more tabs from the Gem Store.No thanks. I am not going to pay for the full functionality of a function that is already available to everyone; because you took so long to make it that someone, on their own free time, already made a very well functioning build templates add-on with unlimited "tabs". I sincerely hope you don't plan on making the use of this add-on an offense.

I would urge "this is fine" voters to consider that just because you didn't use [omitted title] doesn't mean it wasn't incredibly useful and valuable to many in the gw2 community. You may be siding with a sizable injustice to portions of our community by saying "this is OK" (see footer note/edit)

I can think of another popular MMORPG that, instead of doing this, ended up incorporating add-ons in the game and encouraged making helpful/useful add-ons. You don't need to vouch for the add-on as professionals... but you simply just needed to allow it to exist. Instead, because you guys wanted to do it yourselves,

we're now paying for what we already had easy and consistent access to, because you wanted to monetize it.

Ok, so we get a little perk in saving inventory space, but all I want is to not have this be forced on me. I already have the functionality of build templates, if you disallow that, and enforce your build templates functionality, you are forcing me to buy the inventory slots gained by using your option. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea. But I'm left with no choice but to give you money. Even if I'm willing to do that, I defy that on principle.

Mounts in WvW was one thing. We adjusted to it, even though we did not want to.If you make this pay-for-full-functionality I will lose faith that I shouldn't still have to begin with.

Taking a screenshot of this post & saving it. Why?

Well, you know how it is here.

edit: wording, and: note that if we are still allowed to use [omitted title] after this release, I won't mind so much. I can look past that easily, if this condition is met.

 

Agreed this is some swtor level malarkey where you need to pay to get access to all the UI.......if Anet want to go the whole lets monetize everything f2p route then make the game f2p already and stop double dipping as a b2p game when it's clearly not anymore.

This doesn't make sense ... Anet has not charged anyone double for any features, items, etc ... released in this game YET. Where is the double dipping happening on this one?

F2p games are free to download and play but they have a cash shop where storage space, sometimes UI and other things like this are monetized in a cash shop.

B2p generally was you pay for the game once, it free for life and no cash shop, then they whined we need to eat we poor poor game dev/company so along cash shop in b2p with cosmetics only and then they added storage space etc etc once people got acclimatized to this and then it was UI features and now it's basic mechanics like this.

So that's what I mean by double dipping. If you buy a game you should get all the features and not get nickel and dimed cause they purposely lock out some stuff so they can charge you in a cash shop.

Guess it's why in my old age I am little by little losing interest in "online" games and starting to go back to offline single players that have great stories. I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion in these forum but frankly idc if some of the hardcore fans think I am "entitled". I know I am not as I can see the difference in paying for a game then being nickel and dime on far too many things versus expecting everything for free on a silver platter.

No no, hold on ... you are claiming Anet is going to double dip you for a feature when they NEVER done so in the past and likely never to do so in the future.

here is my big problem ... I know I haven't paid for this feature and I have everything. So what are you talking about? What really burns from your post here is that it already sounds like from what I heard ... Anet isn't going make anyone pay for the fundamental access, so there isn't any double dipping here. Just like it's not double dipping to ...

give people a bank and sell extra bank slots ...or give people 3 character slots with the core game and sell character slots ...or give people 5 inventory bag slots per character with the core game and sell inventory bag slots ...

So maybe you should rethink what you view as double dipping and look at how this operates.

Even if Anet DID charge for the basic level access to this new feature ... I don't see a problem with that. It's not content associated with ANYTHING YOU HAVE PAID FOR, so it's reasonable to pay for it if they wanted you to.

[Calistin.6210]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Calistin.6210 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Calistin.6210 said:

@solemn.9608 said:

@susana.7814 said:

@"yoni.7015" said:Why open another thread? There is an existing one.

Probably because people want to actually be heard.Right on.

> @"Arenanet" said:

At release, each character will get three Build Template tabs, which will be preloaded with their existing equipped builds from PvE, PvP, and WvW. You can swap the contents of the Build Template tabs for use in any game mode or purchase more tabs from the Gem Store.No thanks. I am not going to pay for the full functionality of a function that is already available to everyone; because you took so long to make it that someone, on their own free time, already made a very well functioning build templates add-on with unlimited "tabs". I sincerely hope you don't plan on making the use of this add-on an offense.

I would urge "this is fine" voters to consider that just because you didn't use [omitted title] doesn't mean it wasn't incredibly useful and valuable to many in the gw2 community. You may be siding with a sizable injustice to portions of our community by saying "this is OK" (see footer note/edit)

I can think of another popular MMORPG that, instead of doing this, ended up incorporating add-ons in the game and encouraged making helpful/useful add-ons. You don't need to vouch for the add-on as professionals... but you simply just needed to allow it to exist. Instead, because you guys wanted to do it yourselves,

we're now paying for what we already had easy and consistent access to, because you wanted to monetize it.

Ok, so we get a little perk in saving inventory space, but all I want is to not have this be forced on me. I already have the functionality of build templates, if you disallow that, and enforce your build templates functionality, you are forcing me to buy the inventory slots gained by using your option. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea. But I'm left with no choice but to give you money. Even if I'm willing to do that, I defy that on principle.

Mounts in WvW was one thing. We adjusted to it, even though we did not want to.If you make this pay-for-full-functionality I will lose faith that I shouldn't still have to begin with.

Taking a screenshot of this post & saving it. Why?

Well, you know how it is here.

edit: wording, and: note that if we are still allowed to use [omitted title] after this release, I won't mind so much. I can look past that easily, if this condition is met.

 

Agreed this is some swtor level malarkey where you need to pay to get access to all the UI.......if Anet want to go the whole lets monetize everything f2p route then make the game f2p already and stop double dipping as a b2p game when it's clearly not anymore.

This doesn't make sense ... Anet has not charged anyone double for any features, items, etc ... released in this game YET. Where is the double dipping happening on this one?

F2p games are free to download and play but they have a cash shop where storage space, sometimes UI and other things like this are monetized in a cash shop.

B2p generally was you pay for the game once, it free for life and no cash shop, then they whined we need to eat we poor poor game dev/company so along cash shop in b2p with cosmetics only and then they added storage space etc etc once people got acclimatized to this and then it was UI features and now it's basic mechanics like this.

So that's what I mean by double dipping. If you buy a game you should get all the features and not get nickel and dimed cause they purposely lock out some stuff so they can charge you in a cash shop.

Guess it's why in my old age I am little by little losing interest in "online" games and starting to go back to offline single players that have great stories. I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion in these forum but frankly idc if some of the hardcore fans think I am "entitled". I know I am not as I can see the difference in paying for a game then being nickel and dime on far too many things versus expecting everything for free on a silver platter.

No no, hold on ... you are claiming Anet is going to double dip you for a feature when they NEVER done so in the past and likely never to do so in the future.

here is my big problem ... I know I haven't paid for this feature and I have everything. So what are you talking about? What really burns from your post here is that it already sounds like from what I heard ... Anet isn't going make anyone pay for the fundamental access, so there isn't any double dipping here. Just like it's not double dipping to ...

give people a bank and sell extra bank slots ...or give people 3 character slots with the core game and sell character slots ...or give people 3 inventory bag slots with the core game and sell inventory bag slots ...

So maybe you should rethink what you view as double dipping and look at how this operates.

Even if Anet DID charge for the basic level access to this new feature ... I don't see a problem with that. It's not content associated with ANYTHING YOU HAVE PAID FOR, so it's reasonable to pay for it if they wanted you to.

The fundamental shift is that people get nickel and dimed because they don't seem to know any better as this has been going on for awhile now and even defend it full up on false righteous indignation as they have been conned into thinking this is not only acceptable but even more so conned into thinking people that DO SEE how this is malarkey are some kind of entitled kids asking for a hand out.

[Obtena.7952]

@Calistin.6210 said:The fundamental shift is that people get nickel and dimed because they don't seem to know any better as this has been going on for awhile now and even defend it full up on false righteous indignation as they have been conned into thinking this is not only acceptable but even more so conned into thinking people that DO SEE how this is malarkey are some kind of entitled kids asking for a hand out.

There is no fundamental shift though ... this business model has existed since the beginning of the game and maintained at the same level. Anet has never strayed from it. Not only that, but it's completely reasonable for Anet to offer products that people can buy if they want to. In fact, you need to give your head a shake if you can't see we always get a taste of the features they offer us. That's the OPPOSITE of double dipping. That's more than reasonable. Only entitled people sit there and think of reasons they shouldn't have to pay for a product or service offered by a business.

[Seera.5916]

@"Calistin.6210" said:

F2p games are free to download and play but they have a cash shop where storage space, sometimes UI and other things like this are monetized in a cash shop.

B2p generally was you pay for the game once, it free for life and no cash shop, then they whined we need to eat we poor poor game dev/company so along cash shop in b2p with cosmetics only and then they added storage space etc etc once people got acclimatized to this and then it was UI features and now it's basic mechanics like this.

So that's what I mean by double dipping. If you buy a game you should get all the features and not get nickel and dimed cause they purposely lock out some stuff so they can charge you in a cash shop.

Guess it's why in my old age I am little by little losing interest in "online" games and starting to go back to offline single players that have great stories. I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion in these forum but frankly idc if some of the hardcore fans think I am "entitled". I know I am not as I can see the difference in paying for a game then being nickel and dime on far too many things versus expecting everything for free on a silver platter.

I actually agree with Obtena here and if you've been following the threads here you'll know that that isn't usual.

I've yet to see ANet double dip for anything.

We've known since before launch that there would be a gem store where unnecessary QoL features and cosmetics would be sold.

B2P means you buy once and you can play for how long computers can run the game or the server stays up depending on the game and if it needs online access. That is GW2. I don't have to give ANet more money in order to play the game.

Sims 3 is a buy to play game. It has an online store. No one accused EA of double dipping for that. And if any company would be accused of that, it's EA. And they have gotten accused of it in Sims 4 when they released a stuff pack that required a specific expansion pack to be installed that was mostly recolors from that same specific expansion pack.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@"Calistin.6210" said:

F2p games are free to download and play but they have a cash shop where storage space, sometimes UI and other things like this are monetized in a cash shop.

B2p generally was you pay for the game once, it free for life and no cash shop, then they whined we need to eat we poor poor game dev/company so along cash shop in b2p with cosmetics only and then they added storage space etc etc once people got acclimatized to this and then it was UI features and now it's basic mechanics like this.

There are no B2P MMO's out there that I know of that don't also have cash shops. ESO is the biggest, and it charges a freemium sub and charges for DLC's and XPac's on top of the store. Especially egregious is that crafting material storage is gated behind the freemium sub in a game where buying mats from other players is not simple. Fwiw, the original GW started with no cash shop, but added one before they announced no further development -- and it did sell storage upgrades.

So that's what I mean by double dipping. If you buy a game you should get all the features and not get nickel and dimed cause they purposely lock out some stuff so they can charge you in a cash shop.

Guess it's why in my old age I am little by little losing interest in "online" games and starting to go back to offline single players that have great stories. I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion in these forum but frankly idc if some of the hardcore fans think I am "entitled". I know I am not as I can see the difference in paying for a game then being nickel and dime on far too many things versus expecting everything for free on a silver platter.

Hey, whatever you find the most enjoyment in is fine with me. It's certainly true that the idea behind "games as a service" is to get players to pay a lot more than they will for a game box. The big difference between an MMO and a boxed SPRPG is that the SP game will offer maybe, what, anything from 20 to 100 hours of game play? MMO players play "their" MMO for thousands of hours. The box price for both is in many cases the same. SPRPG's either never offer additional content, or charge for it in the form of a DLC. GW2 offers the equivalent of a DLC every few months at no cost. So, GW2 has to produce 1000's of hours of content (a lot of it repetitive, to be sure), and offers free updates. Where does the money come from?

I would have preferred the GW model, with new boxes every six months to a year -- even with its store. Production values on GW2 made that unlikely. So, if you prefer a single price for everything, MMO's are probably not going to offer that.

[Calistin.6210]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Calistin.6210 said:The fundamental shift is that people get nickel and dimed because they don't seem to know any better as this has been going on for awhile now and even defend it full up on false righteous indignation as they have been conned into thinking this is not only acceptable but even more so conned into thinking people that DO SEE how this is malarkey are some kind of entitled kids asking for a hand out.

...snip...Only entitled people sit there and think of reasons they shouldn't have to pay for a product or service offered by a business.

What I said in my previous post, point in case right here.

@IndigoSundown.5419

I have been playing video games since the late 70's I can assure you what is considered b2p now is a corrupted greedy little con as cash shop are showing there heads even in some single player games but it wasn't always like this.

When I say double dipping I am not targeting Anet persay I am speaking more generally, about mmo's generally and how the market has changed and become much more predatory. Gone are the times where is was a simple one of purchase of a game and you got to enjoy all of it with further forking out cash to the company holding it hand out to you. Gone are the time when you buy an expansion and get all the content up to date instead you have to pay extra for season or to unlock this or the be allowed to get such n such mount etc etc.

Anyways that's my view and no one here is going to change it and yes I vote with my wallet. In games that don't tend to be so greedy where I am not nickel and dimed so much I tend to spend lots on cosmetics, enough that it usually works out to being an off and on again subscription price.

When games however do not allow me to see all the story even though I paid the expansions and want me to pay for "seasons" and again for QoL basics then I tend not to buy anything or any cosmetics at all.

[Obtena.7952]

The fact remains that Anet has NEVER double dipped it's players. Quite the opposite actually ... but if you think your speculation against the odds of Anet double dipping people for this feature is sufficient to form your opinion along with you're unhappiness with product offerings in this industry as a whole ... OK. You do that.

[Calistin.6210]

@"Obtena.7952" said:The fact remains that Anet has NEVER double dipped it's players. Quite the opposite actually ... but if you think your speculation against the odds of Anet double dipping people for this feature is sufficient to form your opinion along with you're unhappiness with product offerings in this industry as a whole ... OK. You do that.

Sure it has, to be specific if you bought the base game you paid for the content then you buy the HoT expansion should reasonably expect to get all the story up to the end of Hot instead Anet double dips and hides some story in the living worlds seasons so that going from core game to HoT you are like WTH is going on unless you fork over more cash for the seasons, that's double dipping.

If you believe people are not being conned into over paying with this "game as a service" malarkey that's your opinion... OK. You do that

[Obtena.7952]

I don't know what that has to do with this feature or this thread ... but I explain it.

That's not double dipping because you paid for access ... and you got access to get it when it was available at the original cost you paid. From where I sit, there are likely costs to maintain offering those LS over long periods of time to players ... EVEN if they bought those expansions ... and you pay them because you DIDN"T capitalize on getting it when you could have at the cost you paid originally. Basically you get to pay a holding fee because you are late. Or if you will ... you 'missed your appointment'. You still paid for that appointment ... and the next one too. Because appointments are access to services ... like like these.

The fun part is that this is another example of ANet kind of shooting themselves in the foot ... because IMO, they should be charging for LS and not pretending it's part of the expansion that was previously released. Then you get these complicated issues and players don't understand what they are paying for.

[Hugs.1856]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:Also think about what this means for future features that players have asked for. Right now some people are sending anet a pretty misguided message."Yes we want this feature"Anet gives feature"No we dont want it"And at the end of the day, "some people" are a tiny minority.

For 99% of the people these templates will either be:

• Same as now because they wont even use themor
• An improvement

I think the same : this system is a straight up, free, significant upgrade for the vast majority of players.

The issue is that it's a downgrade for the most dedicated players, who lose a key feature, no matter how much they are willing to pay for.

I am thankful to Anet for the implementation but I am not sure it's wise to upset your most dedicated players. Especially the crazy ones who went through the trouble of having full legendary gear.

It's a pity they had to choose between upsetting these players or touching the inventory code.

[kharmin.7683]

Most dedicated players? By whose metrics?

[Astralporing.1957]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Calistin.6210 said:The fundamental shift is that people get nickel and dimed because they don't seem to know any better as this has been going on for awhile now and even defend it full up on false righteous indignation as they have been conned into thinking this is not only acceptable but even more so conned into thinking people that DO SEE how this is malarkey are some kind of entitled kids asking for a hand out.

There is no fundamental shift though ...Yes, that's exactly what you have been conditioned to believe. You believing in it doesn;t make it true, however.

this business model has existed since the beginning of the game and maintained at the same level. Anet has never strayed from it. Not only that, but it's completely reasonable for Anet to offer products that people can buy if they want to. In fact, you need to give your head a shake if you can't see we always get a taste of the features they offer us. That's the OPPOSITE of double dipping. That's more than reasonable. Only entitled people sit there and think of reasons they shouldn't have to pay for a product or service offered by a business.Thanks for proving @Calistin.6210's point.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Hugs.1856 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:Also think about what this means for future features that players have asked for. Right now some people are sending anet a pretty misguided message."Yes we want this feature"Anet gives feature"No we dont want it"And at the end of the day, "some people" are a tiny minority.

For 99% of the people these templates will either be:

• Same as now because they wont even use themor
• An improvement

I think the same : this system is a straight up,

free

, significant upgrade for the vast majority of players.

The issue is that it's a downgrade for the most dedicated players, who lose a key feature, no matter how much they are willing to pay for.

I am thankful to Anet for the implementation but I am not sure it's wise to upset your most dedicated players. Especially the crazy ones who went through the trouble of having full legendary gear.

It's a pity they had to choose between upsetting these players or touching the inventory code.

From a business perspective in my personal opinion i think its better to try and draw the majority over the few big players. Yes its nice to keep some big ticket players around but almost any thing can upset someone who plays by those standards.

You saw how much flack they got for inserting legendary runes and sigils.Almost every patch will consist of your definition of "The most dedicated players" being upset in some way or another.

I might not own legendary armor but being some one who has played for 7 years and who plays at least a few hours per day almost on the daily i like to consider myself as a pretty dedicated. All be it casual.. but still dedicated (thats a pretty flexible word). I also think this free update will work wonders for what I play and that coming from someone who dips into a bit of all 3 game modes.As some one else said when you use that word "by who's standards?"

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@ZDragon.3046 said:From a business perspective in my personal opinion i think its better to try and draw the majority over the few big players. Yes its nice to keep some big ticket players around but almost any thing can upset someone who plays by those standards.

Maybe ive been missing something, but why does this matter here?As others have pointed out, most players will be happy with what they get for free. They dont need more builds so why pay for it?

Now you have the dedicated people that actually need more slots and you charge them for that? From a business perspective this should have been free to not upset anyone. Keep in mind that your most dedicated players are also the ones advertising the game through videos and streams.

Like it doesnt make any sense. Apparently the dedicated community isnt big enough to warrant proper development for their respective modes (Raids, PvP, WvW and Fractals) but are big enough to actually make a considerable amount of money that has to be worth more than the backlash over buildtemplates?

[kharmin.7683]

People keep tossing around the word "dedicated" without defining it.

[ZDragon.3046]

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:From a business perspective in my personal opinion i think its better to try and draw the majority over the few big players. Yes its nice to keep some big ticket players around but almost any thing can upset someone who plays by those standards.

Maybe ive been missing something, but why does this matter here?

Cause its clearly some people think that despite what is being said that they are in the minority think that they are the most beneficial players to anets game and thus they should get things the way they want it despite how it would cripple anet or the majority of players.When its clearly not the case

As others have pointed out, most players will be happy with what they get for free. They dont need more builds so why pay for it?

Now you have the dedicated people that actually need more slots and you charge them for that? From a business perspective this should have been free to not upset anyone. Keep in mind that your most dedicated players are also the ones advertising the game through videos and streams.

Sorry no i dont agree here. Now i wont say what prices should have been or should be but free most certainly not.

As for dedicated players advertising the game through videos and streams (ive almost never watched any gw2 streaming or video content that was basiclly not funny garbage for chuckles) To which people who dont play the game would not understand if they didnt play.

Like and maybe its just because i play the game i dont exactly go looking up gw2 streamers doing raids or wvw (its boring content imo does not advertise the game very well.)

To an extent the feature itself will/should be free but like with any other feature there needs to be something linked to it to return investment even if that investment is just requiring more play time.Mounts = mount skins etc.Legendary armor = play time etc.You simply do not add features like this in 2019 in a game where you already dont pay much to play, if anything, depending on how lucky you get with free codes from time to time and think that you should get everything for free with no work or buy in required 100% do not agree.

Yes, everyone should been considered, i do agree with this but considering anet does not know who uses arc and who does not and cannot seed data behind arc you cant not fault them for setting a number that is too low for a minority of players when they dont bother with arc itself from the start. Players are blaming anet here for bad design and slamming them like they are and out cast who has sinned when anet could not have possibly known how many people use arc and how many builds people who use arc have per character.

I think a better plan would have been base free to an extent with a built in in-game system to unlock potentially everything for free with what would be the equivalent to play time through collections or crafting quest etc.This way if you do want it all for free you still dont get it without some sort of investment. Overall this would have been the smarter way to do it as not only do you please the majority and the minority you keep the minority playing as they now have something to work toward if they want all slots for free.

• Dedicated players will grind for something to obtain it for free if you allow them to do so.
• This could remove an overflow of useless mats we have floating around in the game which could be a good thing.

It would be nice to have a quest that has you see profession trainers around the world of tyria much like the skyscale quest had you run around alot. You do a bunch of things for them based on your base profession with some minor variations from time to time and slowly unlock more slots on your account for free.

That said the total number of build slots is still a anet thing they might change. I dont think 24 as that max number is a set in stone number its probably just a safe number till they see how it rolls on launch as i also said anet has no way of knowing data on what players who have 30 builds per character.

Like it doesnt make any sense. Apparently the dedicated community isnt big enough to warrant proper development for their respective modes (Raids, PvP, WvW and Fractals) but are big enough to actually make a considerable amount of money that has to be worth more than the backlash over buildtemplates?

^ lol if this aint the truth (at least if im understanding you correctly)

The whole issue over templates is that people got spoiled over arc templates and are upset that anet basically didnt just rip off copy the arc template system because the new system currently does not work for people who have 6 characters or more with 14-30 builds each. I doubt anet will ever tell us any time soon as to why they chose not to do that but i mean there are probably a few reasons you could guess.

• its cheap (and possibly illegal) to copy someone else's work and charge money for it (+ people would still complain).
• its also cheap to copy import someone else's work into your big franchise game and could come off as a bad look.
• possibly security risk considering arc's been 3rd part for 2 years where anyone could have figured out how it works.
• there are other underlying issues that that system poses for future systems they want to implement that they have yet to tell us about.
• anet sees server side saving as a big asset that some players might want.

Just to take a few guesses off the top of my head

[ZDragon.3046]

@"kharmin.7683" said:People keep tossing around the word "dedicated" without defining it.

I consider it anyone who just plays the game constantly be it casually or elite status if you love something so much you are willing to play it through the good and the bad regardless of how hard you play i think thats "being dedicated". Even if you are just around to log in do some dailies and chat you can still be dedicated. you take time out of your day out of the millions of things you could be doing to do "that one thing" thats dedication. Regardless of how hard or lightly you take that task.

Long story short regardless how much some people want / need arc if anet forces it to go away, in the end dedicated players will continue to play regardless.Same with balance patches, your build/spec/profession gets a hard nerf you will continue to play it regardless.