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Dealing damage is not a raid mechanic


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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.

Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give sh*t about their performance.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -you're joining randoms because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -
you're joining randoms
because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you dont learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

^This is how it should be.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@"Nephalem.8921" said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -
you're joining randoms
because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

Holy crap, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

^This is how it should be.

Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

...so I guess it's good I asked if you understand what I'm writing, because apparently you don't.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Nephalem.8921" said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -
you're joining randoms
because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

^This is how it should be.

Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@"Nephalem.8921" said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -
you're joining randoms
because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

^This is how it should be.

Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.https://i.imgur.com/DwUtS5L.jpg

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Nephalem.8921" said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -
you're joining randoms
because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

^This is how it should be.

Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@"Nephalem.8921" said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -
you're joining randoms
because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

^This is how it should be.

Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

No kp training squads are literally the only way new players enter raiding unless they join a specific raiding/training guilds, at which point they're no longer in the roster of those 'not caring randoms'. Which part of this is hard to understand for you? I'm not saying every random taining squad is pure trash, I'm saying if those players are somewhere, they are exactly there. You have ways to pretty much eliminate (or at least minimaze) them from your squads, but you make a conscious (or apparently not so conscious?) choice to join them and then complain about their existance.

Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.

ok, but if the squad recruitment message doesn't mention any "to do checks", then it's safe for anyone to assume there are none. You pick groups with no reqs and then complain about no reqs.It. Is. On. You.

It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

Based on the existance of this thead, I'd say it kind of bothers you though :p

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?They should definitely expect players that would need to be trained. Not necessarily only about boss mechanics.If it's some kind of advanced training and some basics are required, it is definitely better to mention it in lfg.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?They should definitely expect players that would need to be trained. Not necessarily only about boss mechanics.If it's some kind of advanced training and some basics are required, it is definitely better to mention it in lfg.

@"Nephalem.8921" said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -
you're joining randoms
because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

^This is how it should be.

Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

No kp training squads are literally the only way new players enter raiding unless they join a specific raiding/training guilds, at which point they're no longer in the roster of those 'not caring randoms'. Which part of this is hard to understand for you? I'm not saying every random taining squad is pure trash, I'm saying if those players are somewhere, they are exactly there. You have ways to pretty much eliminate (or at least minimaze) them from your squads, but you make a conscious (or apparently not so conscious?) choice to join them and then complain about their existance.

Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.

ok, but if the squad recruitment message doesn't mention any "to do checks", then it's safe for anyone to assume there are none. You pick groups with no reqs and then complain about no reqs.It. Is. On. You.

It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

Based on the existance of this thead, I'd say it kind of bothers you though :p

High LI groups are also often without any other reqs than LIs or KPs. If that kind of high LI group is asking a dps is it ok for me to join with a class that i have never used before and performe badly? If a squad is asking a dps player, thats the req already ^^ they are looking for a dps , not a random filler who does less damage than their support classes.

If there is something that bothers me, its the fact that overall skill lvl in this game is very low, but thats something that i cant change?‍♀️

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?They should definitely expect players that would need to be trained. Not necessarily only about boss mechanics.If it's some kind of advanced training and some basics are required, it is definitely better to mention it in lfg.

@"Nephalem.8921" said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -
you're joining randoms
because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

^This is how it should be.

Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

No kp training squads are literally the only way new players enter raiding unless they join a specific raiding/training guilds, at which point they're no longer in the roster of those 'not caring randoms'. Which part of this is hard to understand for you? I'm not saying every random taining squad is pure trash, I'm saying if those players are somewhere, they are exactly there. You have ways to pretty much eliminate (or at least minimaze) them from your squads, but you make a conscious (or apparently not so conscious?) choice to join them and then complain about their existance.

Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.

ok, but if the squad recruitment message doesn't mention any "to do checks", then it's safe for anyone to assume there are none. You pick groups with no reqs and then complain about no reqs.It. Is. On. You.

It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

Based on the existance of this thead, I'd say it kind of bothers you though :p

High LI groups are also often without any other reqs than LIs or KPs. If that kind of high LI group is asking a dps is it ok for me to join with a class that i have never used before and performe badly? If a squad is asking a dps player, thats the req already ^^ they are looking for a dps , not a random filler who does less damage than their support classes.

If there is something that bothers me, its the fact that overall skill lvl in this game is very low, but thats something that i cant change?‍
♀️

Again, you're trying to make up some silly strictly fictional scenario for the sake of pretending you have an argument. Show me raiding players with high amount of KPs that don't have the knowledge about the existance of the meta. Even people that got carried for 50 raid encounters would actually understand that some kind of meta exists, while you can't say the same about totally new players, who -again- are free to join 'unrestricted training runs'.Also if you join a high KP squads and perform badly, you'll get kicked and that's all there is to it. Nobody will come crying to the forum complaining that some random tried to slack his way in my raiding squad, lmao. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here, but it doesn't change the fact that you're putting yourself between potential newbs and then try to complain about them, which is ridiculous.I guess at this point that's just mandatory in this thead :p

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?They should definitely expect players that would need to be trained. Not necessarily only about boss mechanics.If it's some kind of advanced training and some basics are required, it is definitely better to mention it in lfg.

@"Nephalem.8921" said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -
you're joining randoms
because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

^This is how it should be.

Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

No kp training squads are literally the only way new players enter raiding unless they join a specific raiding/training guilds, at which point they're no longer in the roster of those 'not caring randoms'. Which part of this is hard to understand for you? I'm not saying every random taining squad is pure trash, I'm saying if those players are somewhere, they are exactly there. You have ways to pretty much eliminate (or at least minimaze) them from your squads, but you make a conscious (or apparently not so conscious?) choice to join them and then complain about their existance.

Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.

ok, but if the squad recruitment message doesn't mention any "to do checks", then it's safe for anyone to assume there are none. You pick groups with no reqs and then complain about no reqs.It. Is. On. You.

It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

Based on the existance of this thead, I'd say it kind of bothers you though :p

High LI groups are also often without any other reqs than LIs or KPs. If that kind of high LI group is asking a dps is it ok for me to join with a class that i have never used before and performe badly? If a squad is asking a dps player, thats the req already ^^ they are looking for a dps , not a random filler who does less damage than their support classes.

If there is something that bothers me, its the fact that overall skill lvl in this game is very low, but thats something that i cant change?‍
♀️

Again, you're trying to make up some ridiculous strictly fictional scenario for the sake of pretending you have an argument. Show me raiding players with high amount of KPs that don't have the knowledge about the existance of the meta. Even people that got carried for 50 raid encounters would actually understand that some kind of meta exists, while you can't say the same about totally new players, who -again- are free to join 'unrestricted training runs'.Also if you join a high KP squads and perform badly, you'll get kicked and that's all there is to it. Nobody will come crying to the forum complaining that some random tried to slack his way in my raiding squad, lmao. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here, but it doesn't change the fact that you're putting yourself between newbs and then try to complain about them, which is ridiculous.

Meh, ppl should git gud before they waste other players time in raid trainings ^^

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?They should definitely expect players that would need to be trained. Not necessarily only about boss mechanics.If it's some kind of advanced training and some basics are required, it is definitely better to mention it in lfg.

@"Nephalem.8921" said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -
you're joining randoms
because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

^This is how it should be.

Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

No kp training squads are literally the only way new players enter raiding unless they join a specific raiding/training guilds, at which point they're no longer in the roster of those 'not caring randoms'. Which part of this is hard to understand for you? I'm not saying every random taining squad is pure trash, I'm saying if those players are somewhere, they are exactly there. You have ways to pretty much eliminate (or at least minimaze) them from your squads, but you make a conscious (or apparently not so conscious?) choice to join them and then complain about their existance.

Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.

ok, but if the squad recruitment message doesn't mention any "to do checks", then it's safe for anyone to assume there are none. You pick groups with no reqs and then complain about no reqs.It. Is. On. You.

It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

Based on the existance of this thead, I'd say it kind of bothers you though :p

High LI groups are also often without any other reqs than LIs or KPs. If that kind of high LI group is asking a dps is it ok for me to join with a class that i have never used before and performe badly? If a squad is asking a dps player, thats the req already ^^ they are looking for a dps , not a random filler who does less damage than their support classes.

If there is something that bothers me, its the fact that overall skill lvl in this game is very low, but thats something that i cant change?‍
♀️

Again, you're trying to make up some silly strictly fictional scenario for the sake of pretending you have an argument. Show me raiding players with high amount of KPs that don't have the knowledge about the existance of the meta. Even people that got carried for 50 raid encounters would actually understand that some kind of meta exists, while you can't say the same about totally new players, who -again- are free to join 'unrestricted training runs'.Also if you join a high KP squads and perform badly, you'll get kicked and that's all there is to it. Nobody will come crying to the forum complaining that some random tried to slack his way in my raiding squad, lmao. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here, but it doesn't change the fact that you're putting yourself between potential newbs and then try to complain about them, which is ridiculous.

No but the opposite happens the one that got kicked come to the forums complaining that raiders are toxic kittens so raids should be easier so there is less toxic kittens.

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@Linken.6345 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?They should definitely expect players that would need to be trained. Not necessarily only about boss mechanics.If it's some kind of advanced training and some basics are required, it is definitely better to mention it in lfg.

@"Nephalem.8921" said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -
you're joining randoms
because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

^This is how it should be.

Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

No kp training squads are literally the only way new players enter raiding unless they join a specific raiding/training guilds, at which point they're no longer in the roster of those 'not caring randoms'. Which part of this is hard to understand for you? I'm not saying every random taining squad is pure trash, I'm saying if those players are somewhere, they are exactly there. You have ways to pretty much eliminate (or at least minimaze) them from your squads, but you make a conscious (or apparently not so conscious?) choice to join them and then complain about their existance.

Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.

ok, but if the squad recruitment message doesn't mention any "to do checks", then it's safe for anyone to assume there are none. You pick groups with no reqs and then complain about no reqs.It. Is. On. You.

It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

Based on the existance of this thead, I'd say it kind of bothers you though :p

High LI groups are also often without any other reqs than LIs or KPs. If that kind of high LI group is asking a dps is it ok for me to join with a class that i have never used before and performe badly? If a squad is asking a dps player, thats the req already ^^ they are looking for a dps , not a random filler who does less damage than their support classes.

If there is something that bothers me, its the fact that overall skill lvl in this game is very low, but thats something that i cant change?‍
♀️

Again, you're trying to make up some silly strictly fictional scenario for the sake of pretending you have an argument. Show me raiding players with high amount of KPs that don't have the knowledge about the existance of the meta. Even people that got carried for 50 raid encounters would actually understand that some kind of meta exists, while you can't say the same about totally new players, who -again- are free to join 'unrestricted training runs'.Also if you join a high KP squads and perform badly, you'll get kicked and that's all there is to it. Nobody will come crying to the forum complaining that some random tried to slack his way in my raiding squad, lmao. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here, but it doesn't change the fact that you're putting yourself between potential newbs and then try to complain about them, which is ridiculous.

No but the opposite happens the one that got kicked come to the forums complaining that raiders are toxic kittens so raids should be easier so there is less toxic kittens.

ok, but this is relevant in this thread (or even just to my post) how exactly? :D

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?They should definitely expect players that would need to be trained. Not necessarily only about boss mechanics.If it's some kind of advanced training and some basics are required, it is definitely better to mention it in lfg.

@"Nephalem.8921" said:I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -
you're joining randoms
because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

^This is how it should be.

Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

No kp training squads are literally the only way new players enter raiding unless they join a specific raiding/training guilds, at which point they're no longer in the roster of those 'not caring randoms'. Which part of this is hard to understand for you? I'm not saying every random taining squad is pure trash, I'm saying if those players are somewhere, they are exactly there. You have ways to pretty much eliminate (or at least minimaze) them from your squads, but you make a conscious (or apparently not so conscious?) choice to join them and then complain about their existance.

Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.

ok, but if the squad recruitment message doesn't mention any "to do checks", then it's safe for anyone to assume there are none. You pick groups with no reqs and then complain about no reqs.It. Is. On. You.

It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

Based on the existance of this thead, I'd say it kind of bothers you though :p

High LI groups are also often without any other reqs than LIs or KPs. If that kind of high LI group is asking a dps is it ok for me to join with a class that i have never used before and performe badly? If a squad is asking a dps player, thats the req already ^^ they are looking for a dps , not a random filler who does less damage than their support classes.

If there is something that bothers me, its the fact that overall skill lvl in this game is very low, but thats something that i cant change?‍
♀️

Again, you're trying to make up some silly strictly fictional scenario for the sake of pretending you have an argument. Show me raiding players with high amount of KPs that don't have the knowledge about the existance of the meta. Even people that got carried for 50 raid encounters would actually understand that some kind of meta exists, while you can't say the same about totally new players, who -again- are free to join 'unrestricted training runs'.Also if you join a high KP squads and perform badly, you'll get kicked and that's all there is to it. Nobody will come crying to the forum complaining that some random tried to slack his way in my raiding squad, lmao. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here, but it doesn't change the fact that you're putting yourself between potential newbs and then try to complain about them, which is ridiculous.

No but the opposite happens the one that got kicked come to the forums complaining that raiders are toxic kittens so raids should be easier so there is less toxic kittens.

ok, but this is relevant in this thread (or even just to my post) how exactly? :D

Well trying poke fun at sokeenoppa.5384 with a throw away line that

Nobody will come crying to the forum complaining that some random tried to slack his way in my raiding squad.

When that do infact happens in reverse is a bad way to make your point imo

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@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:High LI groups are also often without any other reqs than LIs or KPs. If that kind of high LI group is asking a dps is it ok for me to join with a class that i have never used before and performe badly?Depends. Is it a training group (unlikely with high LI requirements, but theoretically possible)? Yes? Then it is okay. If it's not a training group, though, then it should be assumed that players joining should have some basic competence level.

Your assumption so far seems to be: "you need to train first before even thinking of joining a training group". That's a weird assumption to have. It's like expecting someone to get well before they'll come to the hospital.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:Your assumption so far seems to be: "you need to train first before even thinking of joining a training group". That's a weird assumption to have. It's like expecting someone to get well before they'll come to the hospital.

I would rather compare it to expecting people to learn how to ride a bike in uneven terrain before they tackle a tricky off-the-road course. It is not strictly a requirement and does not guarantee success but it provides a basic level to work with and thus increases their chance to succeed.

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@Katary.7096 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Your assumption so far seems to be: "you need to train first before even thinking of joining a training group". That's a weird assumption to have. It's like expecting someone to get well before they'll come to the hospital.

I would rather compare it to expecting people to learn how to ride a bike in uneven terrain before they tackle a tricky off-the-road course. It is not strictly a requirement and does not guarantee success but it provides a basic level to work with and thus increases their chance to succeed.

Oh, right. But then again, anyone can come to the biking training/workout where they'll be directed at learning it more efficiently and at the worst case they'll be told they're not good enough so "cya nerd". So I still don't completely see how your comparison makes much sense in the light of what you're trying to say (if I understood your position in this thread correctly).

On the other hand you acknoiwledge that "It is not strictly a requirement", so I'm not sure what you're trying to say anymore. Nobody ever argued (at least from what I saw in this thread) that being a clueless newb is an optimal scenario.

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It may be different for others, but personally every well organised training raid I was ever a part of - both learning and helping others - our first stop was The Special Forces Training Area. If the raid leader/s are taking their trainees straight into an actual raid first up I believe the leadership is more than likely poor.

Any leadership that is even mildly competent I believe knows that the initial raid training runs have one point: To make it enjoyable for their group. It's not to beat content it's not to berate others for poor dps, it's not to yell at them for not learning mechanics or not knowing their rotations perfectly beforehand; it's about group enjoyment. It's about outlining clear goals, and values that the training/session hopes to achieve and highlighting realistic expectations for the group so they don't become disillusioned with defeat. That way they'll come back next time, that way they'll WANT to improve because it was enjoyable and they'll want to take part again.

This actually touches on a wider issue; why there are relatively few players that take part/enjoy raids in the game. The answer to that is not the way the content is developed, or the mechanics commonly used, or the dps checks, or the equipment or time requirements, or something else put in place by development. It's due to other players: Offensive or impolite, abrupt, bad-mannered, selfish or impatient players are the only real reason why there are relatively so few that partake in raiding.

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@"Dadnir.5038" said:Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

Explain to me why maxing dps shouldnt be done. Every mmo raid ever is about maxing dps. If you can do 10 dps but you only do 5 you are doing less then you could.

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@narcx.3570 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Lets take gorseval for example, it has a minor dps check. Is there really any mechanics that could hold your damage back, other than not knowing your own class.

You could down yourself to retaliation, or get important casts interrupted by the knockdown, or get egged, or get the debuff and not know how to get rid of it.

Play meta class, know ur rotation and stand on the tag. Solves everything.

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@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

Explain to me why maxing dps shouldnt be done. Every mmo raid ever is about maxing dps. If you can do 10 dps but you only do 5 you are doing less then you could.

Because, if maxing out dps is necessary then it mean it is a raid mechanism. And ultimately it is a flawed path which can only lead to seeking more and more dps, making players discriminate professions which have inately less dps than other. It's a vicious circle that enforce a pure dps meta, brushing off other options.

It's ok in the case of other traditionnal mmo that follow the old trinity standard, but ANet chose to give it's professions the ability to fullfill all roles with less opening for traditionnal support and tanks, making PvE encounters oriented toward dps a design opening holes for profession/build's discrimination. It was the main reason players complained in the vanilla game and it's still for this reason that players continue to complain.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

Explain to me why maxing dps shouldnt be done. Every mmo raid ever is about maxing dps. If you can do 10 dps but you only do 5 you are doing less then you could.

Because, if maxing out dps is necessary then it mean it is a raid mechanism. And ultimately it is a flawed path which can only lead to seeking more and more dps, making players discriminate professions which have inately less dps than other. It's a vicious circle that enforce a pure dps meta, brushing off other options.

It's ok in the case of other traditionnal mmo that follow the old trinity standard, but ANet chose to give it's professions the ability to fullfill all roles with less opening for traditionnal support and tanks, making PvE encounters oriented toward dps a design opening holes for profession/build's discrimination. It was the main reason players complained in the vanilla game and it's still for this reason that players continue to complain.

It is not nececary to max dps. But why wouldnt you if you can?

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