tempest nerf

[noiwk.2760]

guys is Tempest support really vailable now days and good class?

[supreme.3602]

@noiwk.2760 said:guys is Tempest support really vailable now days and good class?

It has been viable for a while now. You can play with either dagger/warhorn or with staff--both with minstrel stats and trooper runes.

[noiwk.2760]

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@noiwk.2760 said:guys is Tempest support really vailable now days and good class?

It has been viable for a while now. You can play with either dagger/warhorn or with staff--both with minstrel stats and trooper runes.

ty .! thats great to hear ! tho how does it scale into late game as support ? how is it compared to Scourge support or other support in the game?

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@snowshow.5469 said:

@God.2708 said:... I am either running

arcane or air

, and constantly weaving

air into my rotation

because its a tempests primary kitten damage attunement, or

I'm a support tempest that is drowning in so much swiftness

...

• Funny how that's what I listed. Sad you repeated it without noticing
• Playing with others can still mean having low to non existant external sources of swiftness

@God.2708 said:No, what helps is

what build are you running in what context

......Cease commenting on elementalist balance and make a topic asking how to improve instead.

• I made this post for that reason. It's not "asking" how to improve, sure, BUT it tries to show how limiting it can be
• Glad you pointed out "context", I never said what I'm using and where
  (nevermind my or other people's reasons)

@God.2708 said:... Let me repeat: If you are struggling with swiftness on your elementalist build, the swiftness on overload minor trait did nothing but handicap you

because your build is bad.

...

• It might very well be that it is/was a handicap, the point still stands that movement speed/placement is a crucial part of the game. As for the bad builds part, it was to be expected, congratulations.
  By the way, why didn't you finish with "l2p, go meta or play something else" ?

Hope this helps™

Movement speed/placement is crucial, so is damage and defense. Concentration allows greater flexibility.

[supreme.3602]

@noiwk.2760 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@noiwk.2760 said:guys is Tempest support really vailable now days and good class?

It has been viable for a while now. You can play with either dagger/warhorn or with staff--both with minstrel stats and trooper runes.

ty .! thats great to hear ! tho how does it scale into late game as support ? how is it compared to Scourge support or other support in the game?

Not sure what you mean by scourge support, since their main role is to do lots of damage and corrupts. With staff, you'll be doing a lot of healing, as well as cleanses, which is somewhat on the same level as scrapper now but better than support warrior.

[noiwk.2760]

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@noiwk.2760 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@noiwk.2760 said:guys is Tempest support really vailable now days and good class?

It has been viable for a while now. You can play with either dagger/warhorn or with staff--both with minstrel stats and trooper runes.

ty .! thats great to hear ! tho how does it scale into late game as support ? how is it compared to Scourge support or other support in the game?

Not sure what you mean by scourge support, since their main role is to do lots of damage and corrupts. With staff, you'll be doing a lot of healing, as well as cleanses, which is somewhat on the same level as scrapper now but better than support warrior.

just abit better than warrior support? untill now i only knew about warrior banners as support.

can tempest really be good and accepted as support on late game stuff? or its just far too bad compared to FB/Druid?

as for Scourge it can be quite use for barriers and healing..

and about Tempest as support what advantages does it have compared to other supports?

[supreme.3602]

@noiwk.2760 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@noiwk.2760 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@noiwk.2760 said:guys is Tempest support really vailable now days and good class?

It has been viable for a while now. You can play with either dagger/warhorn or with staff--both with minstrel stats and trooper runes.

ty .! thats great to hear ! tho how does it scale into late game as support ? how is it compared to Scourge support or other support in the game?

Not sure what you mean by scourge support, since their main role is to do lots of damage and corrupts. With staff, you'll be doing a lot of healing, as well as cleanses, which is somewhat on the same level as scrapper now but better than support warrior.

just abit better than warrior support? untill now i only knew about warrior banners as support.

can tempest really be good and accepted as support on late game stuff? or its just far too bad compared to FB/Druid?

as for Scourge it can be quite use for barriers and healing..

and about Tempest as support what advantages does it have compared to other supports?

First, let me just understand which game mode you're talking about lol, because I was talking about WvW. Warrior support nowadays has nothing to do with banners, but with shout skills. Never seen druid used, tbh.

If you're talking about PvE, then you got the wrong guy :innocent: ain't got a single clue about that game mode.

[LazySummer.2568]

@noiwk.2760 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@noiwk.2760 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@noiwk.2760 said:guys is Tempest support really vailable now days and good class?

It has been viable for a while now. You can play with either dagger/warhorn or with staff--both with minstrel stats and trooper runes.

ty .! thats great to hear ! tho how does it scale into late game as support ? how is it compared to Scourge support or other support in the game?

Not sure what you mean by scourge support, since their main role is to do lots of damage and corrupts. With staff, you'll be doing a lot of healing, as well as cleanses, which is somewhat on the same level as scrapper now but better than support warrior.

just abit better than warrior support? untill now i only knew about warrior banners as support.

can tempest really be good and accepted as support on late game stuff? or its just far too bad compared to FB/Druid?

as for Scourge it can be quite use for barriers and healing..

and about Tempest as support what advantages does it have compared to other supports?

there's no reason to use tempest as a support in pve as it doesnt offer anything unique that's useful that other supports dont have and it can only focus on one thing (heal or boons or dps) unlike other supports that can at the very least heal+give boons very well. i.e. it's bad

even in wvw and spvp it's replaceable by other supports.

[supreme.3602]

@LazySummer.2568 said:

@noiwk.2760 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@noiwk.2760 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@noiwk.2760 said:guys is Tempest support really vailable now days and good class?

It has been viable for a while now. You can play with either dagger/warhorn or with staff--both with minstrel stats and trooper runes.

ty .! thats great to hear ! tho how does it scale into late game as support ? how is it compared to Scourge support or other support in the game?

Not sure what you mean by scourge support, since their main role is to do lots of damage and corrupts. With staff, you'll be doing a lot of healing, as well as cleanses, which is somewhat on the same level as scrapper now but better than support warrior.

just abit better than warrior support? untill now i only knew about warrior banners as support.

can tempest really be good and accepted as support on late game stuff? or its just far too bad compared to FB/Druid?

as for Scourge it can be quite use for barriers and healing..

and about Tempest as support what advantages does it have compared to other supports?

there's no reason to use tempest as a support in pve as it doesnt offer anything unique that's useful that other supports dont have and it can only focus on one thing (heal or boons or dps) unlike other supports that can at the very least heal+give boons very well. i.e. it's bad

even in wvw and spvp it's replaceable by other supports.

I wouldn't say replaceable. Support tempests are still very much needed in WvW.

[LazySummer.2568]

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@LazySummer.2568 said:

@noiwk.2760 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@noiwk.2760 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@noiwk.2760 said:guys is Tempest support really vailable now days and good class?

It has been viable for a while now. You can play with either dagger/warhorn or with staff--both with minstrel stats and trooper runes.

ty .! thats great to hear ! tho how does it scale into late game as support ? how is it compared to Scourge support or other support in the game?

Not sure what you mean by scourge support, since their main role is to do lots of damage and corrupts. With staff, you'll be doing a lot of healing, as well as cleanses, which is somewhat on the same level as scrapper now but better than support warrior.

just abit better than warrior support? untill now i only knew about warrior banners as support.

can tempest really be good and accepted as support on late game stuff? or its just far too bad compared to FB/Druid?

as for Scourge it can be quite use for barriers and healing..

and about Tempest as support what advantages does it have compared to other supports?

there's no reason to use tempest as a support in pve as it doesnt offer anything unique that's useful that other supports dont have and it can only focus on one thing (heal or boons or dps) unlike other supports that can at the very least heal+give boons very well. i.e. it's bad

even in wvw and spvp it's replaceable by other supports.

I wouldn't say replaceable. Support tempests are still very much needed in WvW.

it's nice to have in a squad, but the difference in a squad not having tempest is not as significant as a squad missing firebrand/scrapper or spellbreaker/herald/scourge (I know these are "dps" but I meant the support part they perform, whether it be boon removal, giving important boons, or barriers), which makes it unnecessary and 1st one to be replaced if the squad happened to be tight on support slots.

[supreme.3602]

@"LazySummer.2568" said:it's nice to have in a squad, but the difference in a squad not having tempest is not as significant as a squad missing firebrand/scrapper or spellbreaker/herald/scourge (I know these are "dps" but I meant the support part they perform, whether it be boon removal, giving important boons, or barriers), which makes it unnecessary and 1st one to be replaced if the squad happened to be tight on support slots.

I understand where you are coming from with firebrands, but scrappers and tempests have different roles in WvW. They both heal and cleanse, but scrapper for example, provides the stealth mechanic, whereas tempests provide the auras, the burst heal and the superspeed. Scrappers, too, can provide the latter, but it's not as instantaneous as the tempest, and it also doesn't affect 10 people (provided people are using the Tempestuous Aria trait).

You may be wondering why I've brought superspeed into the equation. For second or third pushes in a guild/blob fight, it is the most essential thing to have. It is the key to winning a fight, as you can push hard and fast into your enemies, catching them unawares. That is why having a couple of tempests is important. I wouldn't disregard it just like that.

[Emberheart.8426]

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@"LazySummer.2568" said:it's nice to have in a squad, but the difference in a squad not having tempest is not as significant as a squad missing firebrand/scrapper or spellbreaker/herald/scourge (I know these are "dps" but I meant the support part they perform, whether it be boon removal, giving important boons, or barriers), which makes it unnecessary and 1st one to be replaced if the squad happened to be tight on support slots.

I understand where you are coming from with firebrands, but scrappers and tempests have different roles in WvW. They both heal and cleanse, but scrapper for example, provides the stealth mechanic, whereas tempests provide the auras, the burst heal and the superspeed. Scrappers, too, can provide the latter, but it's not as instantaneous as the tempest, and it also doesn't affect 10 people (provided people are using the Tempestuous Aria trait).

You may be wondering why I've brought superspeed into the equation. For second or third pushes in a guild/blob fight, it is the most essential thing to have. It is the key to winning a fight, as you can push hard and fast into your enemies, catching them unawares. That is why having a couple of tempests is important. I wouldn't disregard it just like that.

Auras are simply not good enough. If auras were buffed to be as good as actual unique buffs from other professions it would be a different story. Let's go through the auras just so you can see how much they are lacking.

1. Magnetic Aura: Probably the best aura for WvW. It's not even a unique buff really because it functions exactly like reflects that other classes like Firebrand can bring. It has the benefit of mobility compared to ground targeted reflects. However, this benefit is outshined, because covering an area with reflects is more meaningful in zerg play because of the amount of players involved. Also in PvE, ground targeted reflects are better at reflecting projectiles that become fields.
2. Shocking Aura: This is pretty good in small scale encounters with melee. Pretty meh in WvW zergs because melee is just not that good right now. Also, there is tons of stability in WvW anyway, so this is just okay at best.
3. Frost Aura: Getting an additional 10% damage reduction on top of protection is really nice and the chill is an okay bonus. However the uptime is just not good enough, even compared to other 10% damage reduction buffs from other professions.
4. Fire Aura: Saving the worst for last. This aura is absolutely worthless. The might is completely irrelevant because it's a negligible amount, and might is so easy to generate without the aura. So in the end it's basically a vastly inferior retaliation. Inflicts burning with meh damage, only unlike retaliation it has an ICD per target and it has less uptime than retal.

At the very least fire aura needs a huge buff or a rework. Maybe some buffs on some of the others or more uptime for frost aura, idk. It's unacceptable how light aura got buffed and fire aura is still completely worthless.

Edit: I barely covered PvE, but I'm sure you know that in PVE auras are even worse. Way less desirable. They really do need something.

[LazySummer.2568]

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@"LazySummer.2568" said:it's nice to have in a squad, but the difference in a squad not having tempest is not as significant as a squad missing firebrand/scrapper or spellbreaker/herald/scourge (I know these are "dps" but I meant the support part they perform, whether it be boon removal, giving important boons, or barriers), which makes it unnecessary and 1st one to be replaced if the squad happened to be tight on support slots.

I understand where you are coming from with firebrands, but scrappers and tempests have different roles in WvW. They both heal and cleanse, but scrapper for example, provides the stealth mechanic, whereas tempests provide the auras, the burst heal and the superspeed. Scrappers, too, can provide the latter, but it's not as instantaneous as the tempest, and it also doesn't affect 10 people (provided people are using the Tempestuous Aria trait).

You may be wondering why I've brought superspeed into the equation. For second or third pushes in a guild/blob fight, it is the most essential thing to have. It is the key to winning a fight, as you can push hard and fast into your enemies, catching them unawares. That is why having a couple of tempests is important. I wouldn't disregard it just like that.

I understand superspeed is actually a really good buff (any type movement speed bonus is good in fights, hence why my original post about losing swiftness is a nerf), and I slot eye of the storm every time I happen to play tempest in zerg but the cd on that skill is really too long for its effectiveness to be significant. Not to mention taking it & using it means using one of your important stunbreaks while giving up on potential extra heal/condi cleanse or aftershock which is pretty good too.

It's quite dumb to me how much superspeed scrappers can spam on top of doing all these other useful things like converting condis, stealth and heal and really, if you want basically infinite, instant superspeed for the whole zerg, might as well mix in a few holosmith with the leap trait and it's not like holosmith is completely useless. It can still do some damage in melee group.

Auras, like the post above said is really meh and the only aura that even cause a bit of annoyance to enemies is frost aura, and that's mainly only really good against dps weavers.

Tempest is just too fair and i dont understand why balance team is so clueless and keep it at that level when everyone else is broken while keep making trash changes like this concentration for swiftness thing.

[Pengu.7481]

comming from pvp side of things i wish anet would throw tempest a bone,as d/f auramancer this removal of swiftness on overloads feelsbadman and making us choose between granting regen/vigor or swiftness and 1 stack of stab .. ONE ! kitten sake meanwhile firebrand is rolling around with shareable quickness and stab on demand... i understand auras is a thing but as someone said, not too great either. atleast give us 2 stacks of stab on overload + swiftness and regen back on auras together with that concentration bs. at this rate we might become druid 2.0 , even tho i sinceriely hope thats not gonna happen.

[supreme.3602]

I honestly think they shouldn't have removed swiftness at all. I feel so slow without it on my roaming build.

[Pengu.7481]

well they shouldnt have. instead of giving QoL changes to a spec that could really need it they decide that tempest should be dps focused instead. even tho its whole theme is support oriented .. bulletproof logic right there ..im just so tired of seeing these changes by a team that clearly dosnt play the class or have the slightest idea how other support classes stack to firebrand.i love my tempest but its getting manhandled by idiots atm

[steki.1478]

@toxic.3648 said:well they shouldnt have. instead of giving QoL changes to a spec that could really need it they decide that tempest should be dps focused instead. even tho its whole theme is support oriented .. bulletproof logic right there ..im just so tired of seeing these changes by a team that clearly dosnt play the class or have the slightest idea how other support classes stack to firebrand.i love my tempest but its getting manhandled by idiots atm

FB is both dps and support spec, just like tempest. They are both changing the way class F skills work so at the end it's not that the elite spes is X-focused, it's about core class and both of them are hybrid by design.

[Pengu.7481]

@steki.1478 said:

@"toxic.3648" said:well they shouldnt have. instead of giving QoL changes to a spec that could really need it they decide that tempest should be dps focused instead. even tho its whole theme is support oriented .. bulletproof logic right there ..im just so tired of seeing these changes by a team that clearly dosnt play the class or have the slightest idea how other support classes stack to firebrand.i love my tempest but its getting manhandled by idiots atm

FB is both dps and support spec, just like tempest. They are both changing the way class F skills work so at the end it's not that the elite spes is X-focused, it's about core class and both of them are hybrid by design.

yet atm tempest dosnt excell in either in pvp context, but firebrand is. sure tempest got alot of healing but good luck getting overloads off without stab. then again supporting without giving regen and cleanse on auras isnt good either. all i want is even playing field for supports, throwing tempest a bone would solve that, yet anet went "lets give concentration to a class that dosnt have a good selection of support boons to begin with" apart from protection ofc, and now regen which u have to spec for and lose out on mobility and stab(which can help u alooot to get into position in teamfights) but lets firebrand have everything. i agree we should have theme'd elites but gimping 1 with stupid decissions and giving it all for free to another just wont cut it

[Lottie.5370]

@toxic.3648 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@toxic.3648 said:well they shouldnt have. instead of giving QoL changes to a spec that could really need it they decide that tempest should be dps focused instead. even tho its whole theme is support oriented .. bulletproof logic right there ..im just so tired of seeing these changes by a team that clearly dosnt play the class or have the slightest idea how other support classes stack to firebrand.i love my tempest but its getting manhandled by idiots atm

FB is both dps and support spec, just like tempest. They are both changing the way class F skills work so at the end it's not that the elite spes is X-focused, it's about core class and both of them are hybrid by design.

yet atm tempest dosnt excell in either in pvp context, but firebrand is. sure tempest got alot of healing but good luck getting overloads off without stab. then again supporting without giving regen and cleanse on auras isnt good either. all i want is even playing field for supports, throwing tempest a bone would solve that, yet anet went "lets give concentration to a class that dosnt have a good selection of support boons to begin with" apart from protection ofc, and now regen which u have to spec for and lose out on mobility and stab(which can help u alooot to get into position in teamfights) but lets firebrand have everything. i agree we should have theme'd elites but gimping 1 with stupid decissions and giving it all for free to another just wont cut it

Not entirely sure what your post is... Tempest isn't quite as bad as you are making out.

I play Tempest support/heal in PvP in platinum, around 70% winrate over 40 Tempest games. It's not as strong as Firebrand and you have no way to access aegis.

I run Earth/Water/Tempest. Dagger/Focus, Soldier/Trooper rune with Mender Amulet, 4 shouts (Fire + Earth) and Lightning Flash, Mist Form or a 5th shout, depending on the game.

You can get stability 2 ways - on attuning to Earth (Rock Solid, but usually you want Earthen Blessing), and Harmonious Conduit (this means you can use your overloads to break stun, imo it's situationally more useful than regen/vigor on auras, you can apply regen with Frost Aura + Soothing Ice + Overload Water (this is your most important overload and sometimes you just REALLY want that stability to try and guarantee it landing)).

You gain mobility at the start of the game (in base) with Overload Air + Magnetic Wave + Frozen Burst and then attuning to Fire as you do not want to begin a fight on Water. You also have mobility from Fire #3 (also evade) and Earth #2. You have really bad access to Swiftness, except taking Harmonius Conduit, or Overload Air and blasting - "Eye of the Storm!" can be taken, but Lightning Flash is better in most situations.

What do you do better than Firebrand? Not much.

The incoming changes to reduce the cast time of the res glyph may bring that skill in line with Signet of Mercy, but I'm unsure if that will even be viable. However I still think it's a very adequate support and can easily win you games, you have insane healing and condi cleanse. I have also had a lot of success bunkering vs Condi Mirage, Condi Thief and Condi Weaver, when running Diamond Skin.

What would make it better? I have a few suggestions but I'm not sure how it would work in practise.Improve the access to stability (self and to allies). Such as Rock Solid (trait) giving 3-5 stacks of stability to allies rather than just 1, 1 stack of stability is not very solid.Give a way to grant fury to allies - through Air Dagger #2 (which currently just applies to self) or when applying Shocking Aura.

I think the way to buff Tempest specifically and not make Weaver stronger than it is, is to focus putting strength into Aura sharing or applying your boons onto allies and not just yourself, or by buffing the Tempest trait line. I'd like to see some buffs to core Ele weapons without buffing Focus. It could be interesting to see some main-hand Dagger buffs, but adding utility rather than damage.

[Hederrain.9207]

eeeeeeeeeeep