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Ranger Greatsword is Dead


shadowpass.4236

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@verskore.4312 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

It is definitely an overall nerf because 15 endurance doesn’t compensate for our 3rd auto still being a 1s cast. But I do agree that it does feel smoother overall.

Do still need to get used to the changes though.

Guys, you are amazed me ... it's not only about 3r auto evade who was removed, but also for losing a range hit, a cripple and a damage skill. As I said above, the GS4 now isn't a damage skill anymore like it was before, because most of the time 80-90% you don't have the time to kick the enemy. What feels smoother now? I don't get it ... Is it smooth because after a block on GS4 you can use the kick? This means smoother? When most of the time that kick doesn't hit the target because target is already out of the range zone?

@InsaneQR.7412 said:A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

When you take out 4 things from a weapon and you give back only 1 useless 15 endurance, it means big nerf. It's not about to adapt. To adapt what? To adapt to a new style of fighting? You can't, because you don't have anymore the tools and they didn't replace old tools with something new, NO, they just give garbage things instead. The old block of GS could be used full duration by jumping. The kick was automatically, idd, but the new one is so predictable that it can be easily avoided. So what did they give us back for range hit with GS4, for Damage and Cripple on GS4? Nothing. You can say we must learn to adapt when you have something else who can (at least theoretically) compensate for what you lost.

It’s smoother because it’s now a true block, you don’t have to jump around like a rabbit in an attempt to prevent the block ending by someone attacking you from too close.

Also the kick is an evade now and not a very punishing (for the ranger) animation to just kick you while you’re already down because your block ended.

And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

Hardly call GS 4 a damaging skill? By this comment alone you completely lost all credibility about ur knowledge of rangers. Crippling throw could do up to 6-7k damage and no, not even on a pure zerk build. What OP said is completely true, the GS 4 change is just plain stupid and unnecessary. Ppl with half a brain know the knockback will come so they'll back off the moment they block

Yeah, Crippling Throw hits as hard as swoop, it has the same base damage and coefficient, are you going to tell me that swoop is a damage skill too? And the KB is available for about 5s after it flips over, that’s more than enough time to switch up the timing on your opponent so they don’t know exactly when you’re going to kick them, don’t be so predictable. > @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

Sorry, when I said it “wasn’t a damage skill” I was thinking more in line with “you’re not using this skill mainly for damage.” Not as in “it doesn’t do any damage”. We have many other options for fleeing targets ESPECIALLY if we’re running Soulbeast, it’s going to be missed for sure but I feel like the strength of the skill is being vastly blown out of proportion.

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@Durzlla.6295 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

It is definitely an overall nerf because 15 endurance doesn’t compensate for our 3rd auto still being a 1s cast. But I do agree that it does feel smoother overall.

Do still need to get used to the changes though.

Guys, you are amazed me ... it's not only about 3r auto evade who was removed, but also for losing a range hit, a cripple and a damage skill. As I said above, the GS4 now isn't a damage skill anymore like it was before, because most of the time 80-90% you don't have the time to kick the enemy. What feels smoother now? I don't get it ... Is it smooth because after a block on GS4 you can use the kick? This means smoother? When most of the time that kick doesn't hit the target because target is already out of the range zone?

@InsaneQR.7412 said:A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

When you take out 4 things from a weapon and you give back only 1 useless 15 endurance, it means big nerf. It's not about to adapt. To adapt what? To adapt to a new style of fighting? You can't, because you don't have anymore the tools and they didn't replace old tools with something new, NO, they just give garbage things instead. The old block of GS could be used full duration by jumping. The kick was automatically, idd, but the new one is so predictable that it can be easily avoided. So what did they give us back for range hit with GS4, for Damage and Cripple on GS4? Nothing. You can say we must learn to adapt when you have something else who can (at least theoretically) compensate for what you lost.

It’s smoother because it’s now a true block, you don’t have to jump around like a rabbit in an attempt to prevent the block ending by someone attacking you from too close.

Also the kick is an evade now and not a very punishing (for the ranger) animation to just kick you while you’re already down because your block ended.

And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

Hardly call GS 4 a damaging skill? By this comment alone you completely lost all credibility about ur knowledge of rangers. Crippling throw could do up to 6-7k damage and no, not even on a pure zerk build. What OP said is completely true, the GS 4 change is just plain stupid and unnecessary. Ppl with half a brain know the knockback will come so they'll back off the moment they block

Yeah, Crippling Throw hits as hard as swoop, it has the same base damage and coefficient, are you going to tell me that swoop is a damage skill too? And the KB is available for about 5s after it flips over, that’s more than enough time to switch up the timing on your opponent so they don’t know exactly when you’re going to kick them, don’t be so predictable. > @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

Sorry, when I said it “wasn’t a damage skill” I was thinking more in line with “you’re not using this skill mainly for damage.” Not as in “it doesn’t do any damage”. We have many other options for fleeing targets ESPECIALLY if we’re running Soulbeast, it’s going to be missed for sure but I feel like the strength of the skill is being vastly blown out of proportion.

Ok, I'll stop arguing with you anymore, seems you just turn everything how you want, and you don't want to talk about the reality.I will say for the last time these:

  1. I specified clearly that we lost from GS4 1 damage skill who did more than 4k.
  2. After 2 days of playing only sPVP, I can say that in Gold rank and up, players can easily predict the kick of GS4. And this is not theory, is a fact!
  3. It is stupid to say that we have many other options for the fleeing target. We do not argue here about what a Ranger should do, or can do to chase an enemy! We talk about the Real Fact GS got a big nerf! When you get more "-" than "+" it's calling NERF.

This is starting to be pointless when I see old players saying such stupid things ...

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@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

It is definitely an overall nerf because 15 endurance doesn’t compensate for our 3rd auto still being a 1s cast. But I do agree that it does feel smoother overall.

Do still need to get used to the changes though.

Guys, you are amazed me ... it's not only about 3r auto evade who was removed, but also for losing a range hit, a cripple and a damage skill. As I said above, the GS4 now isn't a damage skill anymore like it was before, because most of the time 80-90% you don't have the time to kick the enemy. What feels smoother now? I don't get it ... Is it smooth because after a block on GS4 you can use the kick? This means smoother? When most of the time that kick doesn't hit the target because target is already out of the range zone?

@InsaneQR.7412 said:A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

When you take out 4 things from a weapon and you give back only 1 useless 15 endurance, it means big nerf. It's not about to adapt. To adapt what? To adapt to a new style of fighting? You can't, because you don't have anymore the tools and they didn't replace old tools with something new, NO, they just give garbage things instead. The old block of GS could be used full duration by jumping. The kick was automatically, idd, but the new one is so predictable that it can be easily avoided. So what did they give us back for range hit with GS4, for Damage and Cripple on GS4? Nothing. You can say we must learn to adapt when you have something else who can (at least theoretically) compensate for what you lost.

It’s smoother because it’s now a true block, you don’t have to jump around like a rabbit in an attempt to prevent the block ending by someone attacking you from too close.

Also the kick is an evade now and not a very punishing (for the ranger) animation to just kick you while you’re already down because your block ended.

And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

Hardly call GS 4 a damaging skill? By this comment alone you completely lost all credibility about ur knowledge of rangers. Crippling throw could do up to 6-7k damage and no, not even on a pure zerk build. What OP said is completely true, the GS 4 change is just plain stupid and unnecessary. Ppl with half a brain know the knockback will come so they'll back off the moment they block

Yeah, Crippling Throw hits as hard as swoop, it has the same base damage and coefficient, are you going to tell me that swoop is a damage skill too? And the KB is available for about 5s after it flips over, that’s more than enough time to switch up the timing on your opponent so they don’t know exactly when you’re going to kick them, don’t be so predictable. > @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

Sorry, when I said it “wasn’t a damage skill” I was thinking more in line with “you’re not using this skill mainly for damage.” Not as in “it doesn’t do any damage”. We have many other options for fleeing targets ESPECIALLY if we’re running Soulbeast, it’s going to be missed for sure but I feel like the strength of the skill is being vastly blown out of proportion.

Ok, I'll stop arguing with you anymore, seems you just turn everything how you want, and you don't want to talk about the reality.I will say for the last time these:
  1. I specified clearly that we lost from GS4 1 damage skill who did more than 4k.
  2. After 2 days of playing only sPVP, I can say that in Gold rank and up, players can easily predict the kick of GS4. And this is not theory, is a fact!
  3. It is stupid to say that we have many other options for the fleeing target. We do not argue here about what a Ranger should do, or can do to chase an enemy! We talk about the Real Fact GS got a big nerf! When you get more "-" than "+" it's calling NERF.

This is starting to be pointless when I see old players saying such stupid things ...

I mean I never disagreed that this was an overall nerf to GS as a whole, I’ve said multiple times we are not getting properly compensated for the changes they did.

I just like the overall new feeling of GS4, we absolutely need power put into the GS elsewhere though, I’m not disagreeing on that.

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@Durzlla.6295 said:I mean I never disagreed that this was an overall nerf to GS as a whole, I’ve said multiple times we are not getting properly compensated for the changes they did.

I just like the overall new feeling of GS4, we absolutely need power put into the GS elsewhere though, I’m not disagreeing on that.

I am sorry for misunderstanding you. But I am rly pissed off for what Aned did with 3 weapons of Ranger atm.

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@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:I mean I never disagreed that this was an overall nerf to GS as a whole, I’ve said multiple times we are not getting properly compensated for the changes they did.

I just like the overall new feeling of GS4, we absolutely need power put into the GS elsewhere though, I’m not disagreeing on that.

I am sorry for misunderstanding you. But I am rly pissed off for what Aned did with 3 weapons of Ranger atm.

It’s all good, at least dagger was buffed for sure, im still optimistic that sword is an overall buff and my muscle memory is just holding me back, im giving it more time before calling that one a nerf, since it’s definitely a damage buff.

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@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@"Durzlla.6295" said:And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

In the case of the GS/LB build you have options to deal with someone "running away". Soulbeast builds commonly use Owl for 1,200 Swoop, Smokescale for 750 range Smoke Assault and Gazelle 1,200 Charge. Plus GS 3. Plus all of LB...There are options to get a target at range.

I am considering that you are joking. Because this should be a joke otherwise I don't know what to believe about you ...When we talk about how a weapon was nerfed, how badly is now and what is lost, only a newby can say "you can use the other weapons, other traits line, utilities, pets, build etc " ... maybe you want to say to that we could change the class too.Please, don't come with such kind of comments. Let's stick to the thread and weapon we talked about. Because we talk about what GS had and what doesn't have ANYMORE!

Your can still do damage to someone running away.

If the argument to the devs boils down to “we can’t chase targets now without the old throw on gs 4” it’s going to fail. Why? Because Ranger builds have access to movement skills and ranged weapons to get someone at range. See what I mean? You peeps are killing your own argument and not realizing.

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I tried it again tonight. Still feels like I am way too dependant on my allies. I am not the greatest in range (lots of counter options and mostly solo target dmg) and not able to hold in close combat. 1V1 feels really bad and I drop health for no reasons in chaotic teamfight. On paper it is a new playstyle (dodge, fight for endurance, dodge) but in practice it does not work. You cannot waste a dodge then just auto (just like you could not before) because you are super vulnerable. The new block is great for short fight or a defense burst. I definitely like blocking, hitting back, knockback/evade, then swoop for evade or gain distance. The lack of chase potential (on 4) forces me to go back to LB but so far I managed to deal with it (but if the enemy can turn around you will suddenly be vulnerable/dead).

Ranger build for solo gameplay (what I mean is having some carry potential in fights + solo by holding nodes and participating in teamfight) seems to be boonbeast and I do not like this playstyle.So the question is what is going to be the playstyle of ranger? Sniper? People hated it (not for the good reasons but it deserved some nerfs) and it got nerfed so hard. Full close combat? Ranger cannot do it. Even boonbeast is a middle range combat. Mixt of close combat / range? That is what ranger seems best at. The problem is that swapping is very dangerous. Without any ability to sustain both styles and cds kind of close to the weapon swap you better not miss your timing.

Someone joked today in PvP when an ally and I said ranger was nerfed and had the gazelle/smokescale left by saying "are you afraid to lose it ?" well yes X)

Edit : what do you think if counterattack had 1s duration and a shorter cd than the current version (9s) ? (divided the duration by 3 because of the additional evade and potential talent cd reduction). I also liked @Runiir.6425 suggestion in another thread to increase auto dmg (because the animation is still too slow). I know I do not solve the identity issue of the GS auto but I think it will give way more options if you have good timings.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Durzlla.6295" said:And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

In the case of the GS/LB build you have options to deal with someone "running away". Soulbeast builds commonly use Owl for 1,200 Swoop, Smokescale for 750 range Smoke Assault and Gazelle 1,200 Charge. Plus GS 3. Plus all of LB...There are options to get a target at range.

Dude that's not the issue. You keep saying the same stuff over and over again.

We understand we have ways to CLOSE a gap. However, using a 1200 range leap simply because someone is slightly out of the range of your melee attacks or has speed runes/super speed is stupid. You will hit them with the leap and that's it. They will still be out of range afterwards.

So, what are you supposed to do when you swap to greatsword and they start kiting? Barely hit them at all for 9 seconds until your longbow is back up?

The issue is being unable to STICK to a target. Cripple and soft cc lets us do that. However, there's no way to chase someone down on greatsword anymore. We lost so much utility and gained NOTHING in return. The 3s block was possible before the barrage of recent nerfs simply by spamming jump while channeling gs4. In fact, the current knockback is even harder to hit than the old one. The evade barely makes an impact (if any at all) and it's extremely easy for an enemy to bait it out/out-range it/you to miss.

To put it this way, here's the scenario and what you suggested we do:

  1. Someone has super speed/speed runes with swiftness and runs directly away from us when we swap to greatsword so we can't hit them.
  2. We proceed to use GS3, merge with our: Snow Owl and Swoop/Smokescale and Smoke Assault/Gazelle and Charge.
  3. We do 2k damage maybe if we crit and they're still out of range of our attacks afterward. However, now we have no way to disengage.

I've been playing ranger (and every other class) at a high level for the past 7 years. I have a pretty good understanding of balance and what works/what doesn't. I correctly predicted the effect of nearly every single ranger change on the meta as well as suggested appropriate nerfs that actually fixed problem abilities (like reducing the weakness duration and make the proc from axe 3 dodgeable). When I say they killed greatsword and removed the skill ceiling completely, I meant it. This weapon is very bad at the moment.

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Ranger LB/GS is no longer viable in WvW anymore. You have several classes with the projectile blocks and invulnerability which makes the class utterly useless since we cannot AoE bomb. Coupled with the fact that you get too close, your dead from AoE before you can cleanse them away. Keep your distance and you can only pew pew so much before it either leads to a stalemate or your forced to switch to CQC weapons only to be bombed by AoE.

Latest patch hurt rangers very hard, intentional or not, and a lot of it has to do with the GS nerf.

Going to try a boonbeast build now to see how well it holds up, but with the current AoE environment I'm not holding my breath.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"Durzlla.6295" said:And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

In the case of the GS/LB build you have options to deal with someone "running away". Soulbeast builds commonly use Owl for 1,200 Swoop, Smokescale for 750 range Smoke Assault and Gazelle 1,200 Charge. Plus GS 3. Plus all of LB...There are options to get a target at range.

Dude that's not the issue. You keep saying the same stuff over and over again.

We understand we have ways to CLOSE a gap. However, using a 1200 range leap simply because someone is slightly out of the range of your melee attacks or has speed runes/super speed is stupid. You will hit them with the leap and that's it. They will still be out of range afterwards.

So, what are you supposed to do when you swap to greatsword and they start kiting? Barely hit them at all for 9 seconds until your longbow is back up?

The issue is being unable to STICK to a target. Cripple and soft cc lets us do that. However, there's no way to chase someone down on greatsword anymore. We lost so much utility and gained NOTHING in return. The 3s block was possible before the barrage of recent nerfs simply by spamming jump while channeling gs4. In fact, the current knockback is even harder to hit than the old one. The evade barely makes an impact (if any at all) and it's extremely easy for an enemy to bait it out/out-range it/you to miss.

To put it this way, here's the scenario and what you suggested we do:
  1. Someone has super speed/speed runes with swiftness and runs directly away from us when we swap to greatsword so we can't hit them.
  2. We proceed to use GS3, merge with our: Snow Owl and Swoop/Smokescale and Smoke Assault/Gazelle and Charge.
  3. We do 2k damage maybe if we crit and they're still out of range of our attacks afterward. However, now we have no way to disengage.

I've been playing ranger (and every other class) at a high level for the past 7 years. I have a pretty good understanding of balance and what works/what doesn't. I correctly predicted the effect of nearly every single ranger change on the meta as well as suggested appropriate nerfs that actually fixed problem abilities (like reducing the weakness duration and make the proc from axe 3 dodgeable). When I say they killed greatsword and removed the skill ceiling completely, I meant it. This weapon is
very
bad at the moment.

Hypothetical... Your opponent cleanses the cripple, so what are your options while they are chasing your friend or moving to a capture point, or just running away?

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Durzlla.6295" said:And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

In the case of the GS/LB build you have options to deal with someone "running away". Soulbeast builds commonly use Owl for 1,200 Swoop, Smokescale for 750 range Smoke Assault and Gazelle 1,200 Charge. Plus GS 3. Plus all of LB...There are options to get a target at range.

Dude that's not the issue. You keep saying the same stuff over and over again.

We understand we have ways to CLOSE a gap. However, using a 1200 range leap simply because someone is slightly out of the range of your melee attacks or has speed runes/super speed is stupid. You will hit them with the leap and that's it. They will still be out of range afterwards.

So, what are you supposed to do when you swap to greatsword and they start kiting? Barely hit them at all for 9 seconds until your longbow is back up?

The issue is being unable to STICK to a target. Cripple and soft cc lets us do that. However, there's no way to chase someone down on greatsword anymore. We lost so much utility and gained NOTHING in return. The 3s block was possible before the barrage of recent nerfs simply by spamming jump while channeling gs4. In fact, the current knockback is even harder to hit than the old one. The evade barely makes an impact (if any at all) and it's extremely easy for an enemy to bait it out/out-range it/you to miss.

To put it this way, here's the scenario and what you suggested we do:
  1. Someone has super speed/speed runes with swiftness and runs directly away from us when we swap to greatsword so we can't hit them.
  2. We proceed to use GS3, merge with our: Snow Owl and Swoop/Smokescale and Smoke Assault/Gazelle and Charge.
  3. We do 2k damage maybe if we crit and they're still out of range of our attacks afterward. However, now we have no way to disengage.

I've been playing ranger (and every other class) at a high level for the past 7 years. I have a pretty good understanding of balance and what works/what doesn't. I correctly predicted the effect of nearly every single ranger change on the meta as well as suggested appropriate nerfs that actually fixed problem abilities (like reducing the weakness duration and make the proc from axe 3 dodgeable). When I say they killed greatsword and removed the skill ceiling completely, I meant it. This weapon is
very
bad at the moment.

Hypothetical... Your opponent cleanses the cripple, so what are your options while they are chasing your friend or moving to a capture point, or just running away?

I already explained that in my previous responses to you.

The fact is, we lost the cripple entirely so the OPTION to slow an opponent down is gone. Hypothetically, what if they didn't cleanse it? Now, we'll never know.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"Durzlla.6295" said:And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

In the case of the GS/LB build you have options to deal with someone "running away". Soulbeast builds commonly use Owl for 1,200 Swoop, Smokescale for 750 range Smoke Assault and Gazelle 1,200 Charge. Plus GS 3. Plus all of LB...There are options to get a target at range.

Dude that's not the issue. You keep saying the same stuff over and over again.

We understand we have ways to CLOSE a gap. However, using a 1200 range leap simply because someone is slightly out of the range of your melee attacks or has speed runes/super speed is stupid. You will hit them with the leap and that's it. They will still be out of range afterwards.

So, what are you supposed to do when you swap to greatsword and they start kiting? Barely hit them at all for 9 seconds until your longbow is back up?

The issue is being unable to STICK to a target. Cripple and soft cc lets us do that. However, there's no way to chase someone down on greatsword anymore. We lost so much utility and gained NOTHING in return. The 3s block was possible before the barrage of recent nerfs simply by spamming jump while channeling gs4. In fact, the current knockback is even harder to hit than the old one. The evade barely makes an impact (if any at all) and it's extremely easy for an enemy to bait it out/out-range it/you to miss.

To put it this way, here's the scenario and what you suggested we do:
  1. Someone has super speed/speed runes with swiftness and runs directly away from us when we swap to greatsword so we can't hit them.
  2. We proceed to use GS3, merge with our: Snow Owl and Swoop/Smokescale and Smoke Assault/Gazelle and Charge.
  3. We do 2k damage maybe if we crit and they're still out of range of our attacks afterward. However, now we have no way to disengage.

I've been playing ranger (and every other class) at a high level for the past 7 years. I have a pretty good understanding of balance and what works/what doesn't. I correctly predicted the effect of nearly every single ranger change on the meta as well as suggested appropriate nerfs that actually fixed problem abilities (like reducing the weakness duration and make the proc from axe 3 dodgeable). When I say they killed greatsword and removed the skill ceiling completely, I meant it. This weapon is
very
bad at the moment.

Hypothetical... Your opponent cleanses the cripple, so what are your options while they are chasing your friend or moving to a capture point, or just running away?

I already explained that in my previous responses to you.

The fact is, we lost the cripple entirely so the OPTION to slow an opponent down is gone. Hypothetically, what if they didn't cleanse it? Now, we'll never know.

I'm honestly trying to be helpful. If you are presenting to the devs that you want a change then there has to be some better reasons than the ones listed. If you are telling a dev that you can't apply pressure on a ranged or running opponent, with the types of builds we run, they are probably not going to agree, or be sold on the idea.

I wanted a buff to GS 5, that's it. I'm not sold on the changes either, but my reasons are different than yours. And if the reason is basically "ranged pressure, getting at a ranged target or preventing someone running is all messed up now", I don't think that's accurate or true. Now if this topic were about Necros, then I'm pretty sure we could all easily agree.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Durzlla.6295" said:And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

In the case of the GS/LB build you have options to deal with someone "running away". Soulbeast builds commonly use Owl for 1,200 Swoop, Smokescale for 750 range Smoke Assault and Gazelle 1,200 Charge. Plus GS 3. Plus all of LB...There are options to get a target at range.

Dude that's not the issue. You keep saying the same stuff over and over again.

We understand we have ways to CLOSE a gap. However, using a 1200 range leap simply because someone is slightly out of the range of your melee attacks or has speed runes/super speed is stupid. You will hit them with the leap and that's it. They will still be out of range afterwards.

So, what are you supposed to do when you swap to greatsword and they start kiting? Barely hit them at all for 9 seconds until your longbow is back up?

The issue is being unable to STICK to a target. Cripple and soft cc lets us do that. However, there's no way to chase someone down on greatsword anymore. We lost so much utility and gained NOTHING in return. The 3s block was possible before the barrage of recent nerfs simply by spamming jump while channeling gs4. In fact, the current knockback is even harder to hit than the old one. The evade barely makes an impact (if any at all) and it's extremely easy for an enemy to bait it out/out-range it/you to miss.

To put it this way, here's the scenario and what you suggested we do:
  1. Someone has super speed/speed runes with swiftness and runs directly away from us when we swap to greatsword so we can't hit them.
  2. We proceed to use GS3, merge with our: Snow Owl and Swoop/Smokescale and Smoke Assault/Gazelle and Charge.
  3. We do 2k damage maybe if we crit and they're still out of range of our attacks afterward. However, now we have no way to disengage.

I've been playing ranger (and every other class) at a high level for the past 7 years. I have a pretty good understanding of balance and what works/what doesn't. I correctly predicted the effect of nearly every single ranger change on the meta as well as suggested appropriate nerfs that actually fixed problem abilities (like reducing the weakness duration and make the proc from axe 3 dodgeable). When I say they killed greatsword and removed the skill ceiling completely, I meant it. This weapon is
very
bad at the moment.

Hypothetical... Your opponent cleanses the cripple, so what are your options while they are chasing your friend or moving to a capture point, or just running away?

I already explained that in my previous responses to you.

The fact is, we lost the cripple entirely so the OPTION to slow an opponent down is gone. Hypothetically, what if they didn't cleanse it? Now, we'll never know.

I'm honestly trying to be helpful. If you are presenting to the devs that you want a change then there has to be some better reasons than the ones listed. If you are telling a dev that you can't apply pressure on a ranged or running opponent, with the types of builds we run, they are probably not going to agree, or be sold on the idea.

I wanted a buff to GS 5, that's it. I'm not sold on the changes either, but my reasons are different than yours. And if the reason is basically "ranged pressure, getting at a ranged target or preventing someone running is all messed up now", I don't think that's accurate or true. Now if this topic were about Necros, then I'm pretty sure we could all easily agree.

I gotta side with Swagger on this, we have a ludicrous amount of mobility, and very strong range weapons, the argument of “our Melee weapon can’t exert ranged pressure” is almost definitely going to fall on deaf ears. Especially since we have pets who can patch up holes in our builds IE you need more control? Run a dog.

Greatsword definitely needs some love after these changes, that’s for sure, but I’d personally rather have more power in its ability to go toe to toe with someone rather than to get a ranged attack back on the weapon.

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You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

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@ZhouX.8742 said:You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

I was until yesterday in platinum, EU server. I am not very good, due to my age, lag, etc. Still platinum is not a lower rank either. I can say that GS is not anymore an option for sPVP if you want to level up more than gold I. GS + Longbow in both sPVP and WvW is no longer a viable solution.I don't know what rank @Durzlla.6295 and @Swagger.1459 have, but I am waiting for them to confirm ?.I am playing now axe+axe/sword+warhorn. Surv/Nat/Soulb. The build it is pretty solid. Still I am missing my Gs/Lb with MM/Bm/Soulb.

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gs is in bad place , and long bow as well in bad place. we all know that devs dont know what to do with ranger becuse they all play mesmer. even the elite spec of ranger are horrible and dosent have any connection to the core , like druid is maple story cleric really ?? dont even let me start to talk about the gimmice soulbeast . what ranger is trully need is new dev to be responde to ranger somone how will actully play the class

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Despite the lack of auto evade and the loss of Crippling throw, the ability to block everything for 3s is amazing.

Do we need one or both of those back? Yes. Am I mad things got changed? Yeah.

That being said, having played it out, GS definitely has a different feel and yet still feels quite strong imo.

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@ZhouX.8742 said:You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

“The loss of Crippling Throw means that people can literally just run away from me and I can't catch them”

But OP uses...

“I use LB/GS and Smokescale/Gazelle.“

And the above build has access to...

“swoop 1,000, smoke assault 750, charge 1,200 and to longbow 1,200/1,500.”

...I’m sorry, but the devs won’t buy into the “I can’t catch them” complaint. If you want the old skill back then come up with better reasons to convince the team.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@"ZhouX.8742" said:You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

“The loss of Crippling Throw means that people can literally just run away from me and I can't catch them”

But OP uses...

“I use LB/GS and Smokescale/Gazelle.“

And the above build has access to...

“swoop 1,000, smoke assault 750, charge 1,200 and to longbow 1,200/1,500.”

...I’m sorry, but the devs won’t buy into the “I can’t catch them” complaint. If you want the old skill back then come up with better reasons to convince the team.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1063353/#Comment_1063353

So you're saying the solution to someone kiting us as soon as we swap into greatsword is to swap into longbow?

What about hitting them a single time with Swoop, Charge, or SA then continue to be unable to apply pressure?

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"ZhouX.8742" said:You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

“The loss of Crippling Throw means that people can literally just run away from me and I can't catch them”

But OP uses...

“I use LB/GS and Smokescale/Gazelle.“

And the above build has access to...

“swoop 1,000, smoke assault 750, charge 1,200 and to longbow 1,200/1,500.”

...I’m sorry, but the devs won’t buy into the “I can’t catch them” complaint. If you want the old skill back then come up with better reasons to convince the team.

So you're saying the solution to someone kiting us as soon as we swap into greatsword is to swap into longbow?

What about hitting them a single time with Swoop, Charge, or SA then continue to be unable to apply pressure?

You should focus on coming up with a compelling argument for the devs to consider.

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@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

I was until yesterday in platinum, EU server. I am not very good, due to my age, lag, etc. Still platinum is not a lower rank either. I can say that GS is not anymore an option for sPVP if you want to level up more than gold I. GS + Longbow in both sPVP and WvW is no longer a viable solution.I don't know what rank @Durzlla.6295 and @Swagger.1459 have, but I am waiting for them to confirm ?.I am playing now axe+axe/sword+warhorn. Surv/Nat/Soulb. The build it is pretty solid. Still I am missing my Gs/Lb with MM/Bm/Soulb

The seasons I play in I sit in play, but given my current job I tend to play only a handful of games or miss seasons. Idk if that’s “high tier” to some standards or not though.

I used to run GS, but not anymore since it’s literally no longer able to perform which is something I keep saying yet people seem to think otherwise since I’d rather get another change other than getting cripplingthroe back.

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

“The loss of Crippling Throw means that people can literally just run away from me and I can't catch them”

But OP uses...

“I use LB/GS and Smokescale/Gazelle.“

And the above build has access to...

“swoop 1,000, smoke assault 750, charge 1,200 and to longbow 1,200/1,500.”

...I’m sorry, but the devs won’t buy into the “I can’t catch them” complaint. If you want the old skill back then come up with better reasons to convince the team.

So you're saying the solution to someone kiting us as soon as we swap into greatsword is to swap into longbow?

What about hitting them a single time with Swoop, Charge, or SA then continue to be unable to apply pressure?

The main problem with your argument (as is everyone’s argument) is we’re playing in this hypothetical scenario without any defined circumstances. First it was “people just run away from us” IE fleeing, so we can’t catch them, thus you’d swap to Longbow and gun the low health runner down, now it’s “as soon as I swap to Gs they begin to kite me.” Which swapping to LB would be bad for and GS without any cripple, immob, chill, etc is going to suck at since it can’t stick now. But crippling throw coming back wouldn’t even be the best option in this situation, a more consistent cripple would be, crippling throw coming back is just the laziest solution.

I’d much rather have a cripple that lets me stick to the target in Melee range, whether it’s on swoop, or maul if Anet wants Gs to have limited sticking ability (due to people dodging the largely telegraphed skills), or on auto if they want all rangers Melee weapons (minus dagger mh) to be able to stick like glue.

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@Durzlla.6295 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

I was until yesterday in platinum, EU server. I am not very good, due to my age, lag, etc. Still platinum is not a lower rank either. I can say that GS is not anymore an option for sPVP if you want to level up more than gold I. GS + Longbow in both sPVP and WvW is no longer a viable solution.I don't know what rank @Durzlla.6295 and @Swagger.1459 have, but I am waiting for them to confirm ?.I am playing now axe+axe/sword+warhorn. Surv/Nat/Soulb. The build it is pretty solid. Still I am missing my Gs/Lb with MM/Bm/Soulb

The seasons I play in I sit in play, but given my current job I tend to play only a handful of games or miss seasons. Idk if that’s “high tier” to some standards or not though.

I used to run GS, but not anymore since it’s literally no longer able to perform which is something I keep saying yet people seem to think otherwise since I’d rather get another change other than getting cripplingthroe back.

@ZhouX.8742 said:You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

“The loss of Crippling Throw means that people can literally just run away from me and I can't catch them”

But OP uses...

“I use LB/GS and Smokescale/Gazelle.“

And the above build has access to...

“swoop 1,000, smoke assault 750, charge 1,200 and to longbow 1,200/1,500.”

...I’m sorry, but the devs won’t buy into the “I can’t catch them” complaint. If you want the old skill back then come up with better reasons to convince the team.

So you're saying the solution to someone kiting us as soon as we swap into greatsword is to swap into longbow?

What about hitting them a single time with Swoop, Charge, or SA then continue to be unable to apply pressure?

The main problem with your argument (as is everyone’s argument) is we’re playing in this hypothetical scenario without any defined circumstances. First it was “people just run away from us” IE fleeing, so we can’t catch them, thus you’d swap to Longbow and gun the low health runner down, now it’s “as soon as I swap to Gs they begin to kite me.” Which swapping to LB would be bad for and GS without any cripple, immob, chill, etc is going to suck at since it can’t stick now. But crippling throw coming back wouldn’t even be the best option in this situation, a more consistent cripple would be, crippling throw coming back is just the laziest solution.

I’d much rather have a cripple that lets me stick to the target in Melee range, whether it’s on swoop, or maul if Anet wants Gs to have limited sticking ability (due to people dodging the largely telegraphed skills), or on auto if they want all rangers Melee weapons (minus dagger mh) to be able to stick like glue.

Wvw build with LB \GS have fun: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POgAMFeaX7P7R8G-zVJYiRF/IIdWG1MC-wI haven't felt any difference, 10% of 3k is still 3k, been playing the same build for the last 4 years (nothing which feels better to move to).

It is true I miss sometimes the throw from the GS, but I do like it better now as the block is consistent. I hated when the random kick would get me off from the block.The nerf to the auto was unwarranted and unnecessary imo; I agree after the nerf to the evade in the auto I would expect the 3rd auto chain to be faster. So the weapon wouldn't feel that clunky.

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