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How to Nerf Tools Holo


shadowpass.4236

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

Traits/Utilities/Healing Skills/Elites
  1. Healing Turret's cast time needs to be increased to 1s minimum. 3/4s base with perma quickness is basically impossible to reactively interrupt. Having frequent access to stab coupled with an extremely powerful, reliable heal provides Holosmiths a very easy way to consistently top themselves off. This should be looked at.
  2. Lock On (the reveal trait) should not be DOUBLE proc 12s reveal on a 25s cd that gives fury and applies 20 stacks of vuln.
  3. Kinetic Battery needs to have it's quickness and super speed duration reduced to 3 seconds and increase the maximum stacks to 10 so that it takes Holos 14 seconds to cycle this trait rather than 7 seconds.
  4. Heat Therapy needs it's healing cut to 1/3 of it's current value (from 65 health per unit of heat lost to 22). You nerfed Rugged Growth (another minor trait) on ranger because it was healing around 600 hps on MENDERS amulet while we had protection.
    • Heat Therapy provides a constant 652 healing per SECOND while at max stacks and causes Vent Exhaust to heal for 800 health every time they dodge. Keep in mind, this insane healing does not require ANY healing power investment asides from the (negligible) amount received from Leadership Runes.
    • In other words, with permanent vigor and Heat Therapy, a Holo can heal up to 9000 health every 10 seconds (6520 passively through Heat Therapy, dodging 3x = 2400 healing with Vent Exhaust).
    • This does NOT include healing from Healing Turret. The health regen on Tools Holo is absolutely insane. It's literally more than a warrior's Healing Signet + max stacks of Adrenal Health (the latter of which requires the warrior to land their burst skills) which only heal for a combined 743 hps in comparison.
  5. Invigorating Speed should give 3 seconds of vigor when gaining swiftness on a 10 second ICD. In it's current state, it gives Holos permanent vigor with very little investment.
  6. Toss Elixir S needs it's stealth duration reduced to 3 seconds. The current iteration gives the Holos a LONG 6 second stealth every 30 seconds that is almost impossible to prevent. This single toolbelt skill lets them reset extremely frequently.
  7. Elixir U needs it's cooldown increased from 40s base to 50s.
  8. Prime Light Beam needs a louder sound cue and needs to have the animation cancel bug fixed (the beam animation shows but doesn't do damage).
Photon Forge
  1. Holo Leap needs it's cooldown increased to 4 seconds. Spamming this ability gives the Holo incredible amounts of mobility and damage on a short, 2 second cooldown leap finisher. It moves them 450 range on a 2s cd. In 10 seconds, this enables the Holo to move 2250 range on top of their already (near permanent) super speed uptime with Kinetic Battery.
  2. Corona Burst should apply 2 stacks of stab on the initial pulse with 3 targets max. Currently, it is 1 stack per target hit (max 5) on each pulse. This single skill can give the Holo up to 10 stacks of stability for 4 seconds every 6 seconds and requires 2 defensive skills to avoid.
  3. Healing, utility, toolbelt, and elite skills should be disabled when the Holo enters Photon Forge. This is the only transformation skill in the game that allows the player full access to the rest of their non-weapon abilities.
Weapons
  1. Hip Shot needs to have a 1s cast time. This skill is a laser beam when the Holo has quickness (which means all the time) and the cast time is so quick that literally tracks a target that entered stealth for 2-3 shots.
  2. Net Shot's immobilize should be reduced to 1 second and the cast time increased to 1/2 seconds.
  3. Blunderbuss needs a longer cast time.
  4. Overcharged Shot needs a longer windup and animation similar to a ranger's Point Blank Shot.

While I don't PvP anymore - I do WvW and I completely agree with everything you said here EXCEPT the nerfs to rifle. It seems your suggestions for nerfs were well thought out and I like certain things which don't only apply to holo, like the healing turret cast time increase, elixir S, weren't so harsh that it would crush core builds. I think the stealth duration is too long as well. I also like that you didn't want to crush prime light beam, but rather fix it's animation to be more obvious - a lot of people complain about this elite but it really is only strong if used from stealth.. it's animation is very obvious and if it doesn't hit, all it's done is left the player susceptible to damage and cc - at best forces a dodge.

Rifle nerfs are not the way to go about toning down holo as it would affect core too greatly and also render ALL core weapons near garbage. If they fixed and updated kits this however wouldn't be as big of an issue.

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Rifle has always been a very strong weapon.

  1. The auto attacks hit hard and frequently with quickness meaning you're going to get lasered for around 1-2k every .56 seconds if the Holo is just sitting there spamming 1.
  2. Net Shot is a 2 second duration base immobilize on a 9 second cooldown. It's literally a 22% uptime on immobilize that can be comboed into numerous other CCs/damage abilities and can be used basically every time the Holo swaps back into rifle. 2 second base is insanely high for a skill that does NOT have a cast time, windup, or animation to look out for (in melee range).
    • This skill can singlehandedly guarantee the cast on Prime Light Beam and every other attack the Holo has access to on a 9 second cooldown.
  3. Blunderbuss can hit upwards of 5-6k with a 1/2 second base cast time every 9 seconds. This gets reduced to .375s with quickness and provides the Holo with an extremely hard hitting, low/fast animation attack that can chunk most classes for 1/4 of their HP. It NEEDS a longer windup and a more obvious animation to look out for.
  4. Overcharged Shot is impossible to dodge in melee range (on point). It has no cast time (similar to Net Shot and to a lesser extent, Blunderbuss) and can easily guarantee decaps and knock downed bodies away from rezzes. It's also a long duration CC and can be comboed into many other skills as well.

My suggestions are the increase the cast times and the animations so that people fighting against Holos can actually see what skills they should look out for rather than fighting against a neverending spam of massive damage, CC, and when they see an opportunity to pressure back they get met with a high damage block, then if the Holo is pressured, they can enter a 6 second, low/fast animation stealth and disengage every 30 seconds into a full heal.

These rifle changes I proposed wouldn't kill the weapon lmao. If you guys think that it's only viable because it has 0 tells for the enemy to look out for in melee range, you're sorely mistaken.

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@"shadowpass.4236" said:Rifle has always been a very strong weapon.

  1. Overcharged Shot is impossible to dodge in melee range (on point). It has no cast time (similar to Net Shot and to a lesser extent, Blunderbuss) and can easily guarantee decaps and knock downed bodies away from rezzes. It's also a long duration CC and can be comboed into many other skills as well.

This is THE big one for rifle in my opinion. It needs a wind up like Warrior Longbow's Pin Down where you see the charge and know it's coming.

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This spec has seen nerfs, but just not the ones it needs.

Players don't want you to go after core traits, but sometimes those are problematic.

Players don't want you to go after core skills, but sometimes those are problematic.

Holo is very mobile, really sturdy, has great sustain, stealth, cc, unblockables, blocks, big damage, and cranks out boons; they get in trouble and can reset the fight with s.

Low cooldowns on everything too.

Master of everything and jack of none.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:Rifle has always been a very strong weapon.

  1. The auto attacks hit hard and frequently with quickness meaning you're going to get lasered for around 1-2k every .56 seconds if the Holo is just sitting there spamming 1.
  2. Net Shot is a 2 second duration base immobilize on a 9 second cooldown. It's literally a 22% uptime on immobilize that can be comboed into numerous other CCs/damage abilities and can be used basically every time the Holo swaps back into rifle. 2 second base is insanely high for a skill that does NOT have a cast time, windup, or animation to look out for (in melee range).
    • This skill can singlehandedly guarantee the cast on Prime Light Beam and every other attack the Holo has access to on a 9 second cooldown.
  3. Blunderbuss can hit upwards of 5-6k with a 1/2 second base cast time every 9 seconds. This gets reduced to .375s with quickness and provides the Holo with an extremely hard hitting, low/fast animation attack that can chunk most classes for 1/4 of their HP. It NEEDS a longer windup and a more obvious animation to look out for.
  4. Overcharged Shot is impossible to dodge in melee range (on point). It has no cast time (similar to Net Shot and to a lesser extent, Blunderbuss) and can easily guarantee decaps and knock downed bodies away from rezzes. It's also a long duration CC and can be comboed into many other skills as well.

My suggestions are the increase the cast times and the animations so that people fighting against Holos can actually see what skills they should look out for rather than fighting against a neverending spam of massive damage, CC, and when they see an opportunity to pressure back they get met with a high damage block, then if the Holo is pressured, they can enter a 6 second, low/fast animation stealth and disengage every 30 seconds into a full heal.

These rifle changes I proposed wouldn't kill the weapon lmao. If you guys think that it's only viable because it has 0 tells for the enemy to look out for in melee range, you're sorely mistaken.

most of those can be fixed by removing quickness, and slightly changing how the animations are played out, I do agree that mouse1 on holo is overtuned in its CURRENT state.been shot for 2,2k with quickness, just pew pew pew kinda like rapid fire but as autoattack.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"NotoriousNaru.1705" said:terrible suggestions

propose something better, or do we keep holo utterly broken for longer? along with warrior and fb

He's not wrong though, most of these "suggestions" seem to be made out of spite.

You want suggestions that won't utterly mangle the entire class all the way through? Simple, target the actual problem and what turns reasonable skills on core to OMFGWTFLMAO faceroll on holo.

Photon Forge abilities: If they're "melee range" abilities make them actually melee range or close to (150) instead of 240.Holo Leap: With it's 2s cool down you can use it every single time with your water field. Up the cool down to 6-8s but also make it actually travel 600 units.Heat Therapy: I've already pointed this out months ago but the heal per second un-invested needs reducing by about 50% and increase healing power contribution.Flash Cutter: Reduce the damage by 12% (Yes exactly that amount go look up what it would do)Power Wrench: Turn it into a flat 20% CD reduction to elites. Some issues might present themselves with Elixir X but see how it goes.

Doing these 5 to begin with would massively tone down Holosmith in it's ease of use and put you in a better position to explore other options like:

Cool down on photon forge.Elixir U being a little too good atm, not sure what I would change though, would need to think it through.Prime Light Beam being a little too strong.Edit: Increase cool downs slightly on photon forge abilities, many are fairly low for a free secondary weapon. Some heat generation adjustment might be needed.

The goal should never be to utterly gut a class but to reduce it's dominance of play. The real problem is power creep and without a concerted effort across all classes to strip down function and return classes to their core identities you can't really "fix" anything as it's all kinda busted and all kind of OK in relation to each other....unless you like to play the elite spec that got shafted.

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You guys are being overly dramatic. These nerf suggestions are very minor.

I proposed:

  • 1/4 cast time increase on Healing Turret
  • Lock On double reveal proc turned into single proc (on-hit proc removed)
  • 7 second downtime on Kinetic Battery uptime (from 100% to 50%)
  • Reducing healing from Heat Therapy/Vent Exhaust from 650 hps/800 health per dodge to 216 hps/266 per dodge (without any healing power investment)
  • Reducing the 6 seconds of vigor every 5 seconds from Invigorating Speed down to 3 seconds every 10 (50% uptime on meta build with boon duration instead of the current 120% current uptime, 9000 healing/10 seconds to 3000 healing/10s)
  • Toss Elixir S stealth duration reduced by 3 seconds
  • 8 second cooldown increase on traited Elixir U
  • Louder sound cue on Prime Light Beam channel
  • 2 second cooldown increase on Holo Leap
  • Moving the stability stacks from both pulses of Corona Burst to the first pulse to enable more counterplay (stronger upfront for the Holo but no longer requires enemies to use more than one defensive cooldown to avoid)
  • Photon Forge doesn't have any tradeoffs. Managing heat is already extremely easy. Good holosmiths rarely overheat and reap ALL of the benefits of Photon Forge without any of the downsides. Removing access to skills outside of PF when they enter it would be a good change.
  • Longer cast times and better animations on Rifle skills

NONE of these save for the utility/heal/elite/toolbelt skills tradeoff are harsh (this one can be optional). The overall playstyle remains the same with slight increases to cast times/animations/decreased boon uptime. Base damage and survivability remain the SAME.

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Well all these arguments are nice and dandy but please find a solution without destroying the core engi. Delete holo I dont care. But nerfing core utilities without giving proper buffs would destroy the profession altogether.

Please play core engi for a month in this meta with success. Then talk again. You can barely compete with core power yet you offer several nerfs claiming them to be small. If you had proposed buffs for core with the nerfs that would be something to think about.

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@alain.1659 said:Well all these arguments are nice and dandy but please find a solution without destroying the core engi. Delete holo I dont care. But nerfing core utilities without giving proper buffs would destroy the profession altogether.

Please play core engi for a month in this meta with success. Then talk again. You can barely compete with core power yet you offer several nerfs claiming them to be small. If you had proposed buffs for core with the nerfs that would be something to think about.

These changes can be made in conjunction with buffs to core kits. However, balance has to start somewhere.

If core engi is already unviable, these changes wouldn't make a difference in terms of how much it's played in ranked. You can't justify Holo being overtuned because core engi is underpowered. That's horrible reasoning lol

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@alain.1659 said:Well all these arguments are nice and dandy but please find a solution without destroying the core engi. Delete holo I dont care. But nerfing core utilities without giving proper buffs would destroy the profession altogether.

Please play core engi for a month in this meta with success. Then talk again. You can barely compete with core power yet you offer several nerfs claiming them to be small. If you had proposed buffs for core with the nerfs that would be something to think about.

These changes can be made in conjunction with buffs to core kits. However, balance has to start somewhere.

If core engi is already unviable, these changes wouldn't make a difference in terms of how much it's played in ranked. You can't justify Holo being overtuned because core engi is underpowered. That's horrible reasoning lol

You are seeing what you want to see there. I do not justify holo. As I told you you can delete the friggin spec altogether, hell if I care. But it is wrong to nerf the core profession without giving it a chance to be valid. As you are the one that offered the nerfs, you can also state some possible buffs to make it up for the core.

For example just like elite specs I always thought that core should have a unique set of utility/heal/elite set that elitrs cannot use. Heck even a traitline that is not usable by elite specs would be better to balance the game. I know that this is not a good one but still it is an idea to make core specs viable.

Balance should start with balance. Not with overnerfing.

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@alain.1659 said:

@alain.1659 said:Well all these arguments are nice and dandy but please find a solution without destroying the core engi. Delete holo I dont care. But nerfing core utilities without giving proper buffs would destroy the profession altogether.

Please play core engi for a month in this meta with success. Then talk again. You can barely compete with core power yet you offer several nerfs claiming them to be small. If you had proposed buffs for core with the nerfs that would be something to think about.

These changes can be made in conjunction with buffs to core kits. However, balance has to start somewhere.

If core engi is already unviable, these changes wouldn't make a difference in terms of how much it's played in ranked. You can't justify Holo being overtuned because core engi is underpowered. That's horrible reasoning lol

You are seeing what you want to see there. I do not justify holo. As I told you you can delete the friggin spec altogether, hell if I care. But it is wrong to nerf the core profession without giving it a chance to be valid. As you are the one that offered the nerfs, you can also state some possible buffs to make it up for the core.

For example just like elite specs I always thought that core should have a unique set of utility/heal/elite set that elitrs cannot use. Heck even a traitline that is not usable by elite specs would be better to balance the game. I know that this is not a good one but still it is an idea to make core specs viable.

Balance should start with balance. Not with overnerfing.

This discussion is about holosmith, not core engi. I do not have to suggest buffs to core engi simultaneously in order to justify my suggestions.

The adjustments I proposed are very mild and reasonable. If you disagree, feel free to explain why.

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@Tycura.1982 said:Targeting core lines and abilities hurts the class as a whole which is unjustified if you consider the state of the other engie specs.

Ding ding ding.

I'm going to highlight the actually reasonable nerfs:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

Traits/Utilities/Healing Skills/Elites
  1. Lock On (the reveal trait) should not be DOUBLE proc 12s reveal on a 25s cd that gives fury and applies 20 stacks of vuln.
  2. Heat Therapy needs it's healing cut to 1/3 of it's current value (from 65 health per unit of heat lost to 22). You nerfed Rugged Growth (another minor trait) on ranger because it was healing around 600 hps on MENDERS amulet while we had protection.
  3. Toss Elixir S needs it's stealth duration reduced to 3 seconds. The current iteration gives the Holos a LONG 6 second stealth every 30 seconds that is almost impossible to prevent. This single toolbelt skill lets them reset extremely frequently.
  4. Elixir U needs it's cooldown increased from 40s base to 50s.
  5. Prime Light Beam needs a louder sound cue and needs to have the animation cancel bug fixed (the beam animation shows but doesn't do damage).
Photon Forge
  1. Corona Burst should apply 2 stacks of stab on the initial pulse with 3 targets max. Currently, it is 1 stack per target hit (max 5) on each pulse. This single skill can give the Holo up to 10 stacks of stability for 4 seconds every 6 seconds and requires 2 defensive skills to avoid.

The rest of the nerfs are either based on a misunderstanding of the spec, or the core class. For example:

  • Kinetic Battery is actually not that strong on the core class. It's strong only in conjunction with holo because activating and exiting photon forge adds a stack. Remove that functionality, and kinetic battery is back to a relatively normal state.
  • THIS WAS WRONG, DISREGARD
  • Hip shot is chip damage. Why you think it's a laser gun is beyond me. Unless you get a crit on it, its damage is usually in the 800-1000 range for a marauder ammy. Also, please note that the actual cast time is 0.84 seconds, not the tooltip time of 3/4s.
  • Net shot reduced to 1 second... this is a joke, right? The skill is verging on bad as it is for core engineer.
  • Blunderbuss is fine as is.
  • Overcharged shot currently knocks engineer back or eats a stack of stability as a drawback. Additionally, the projectile is actually pretty slow and easy to dodge if you're over 600 range away. If you want a windup, then don't let it knock us back/eat stability.
  • As far as weapons go, engineer only has 3 core weapons. One is completely in the gutter, one is niche, and you want to nerf the most viable option.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:but I do know as someone who pays attention to what my allies/opponents do, that stealth is part of the holo problem.

But that stealth is also the only stealth that core engi has access to on-demand.

If your problem is holo you'll need to consider that nerfing it impacts core engi pretty hard.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

The rest of the nerfs are either based on a misunderstanding of the spec, or the core class. For example:

  • Kinetic Battery is actually not that strong on the core class. It's strong only in conjunction with holo because activating and exiting photon forge adds a stack. Remove that functionality, and kinetic battery is back to a relatively normal state.
  • Holo leap is not a 450-range leap. The attack itself is 450 range. The leap is only 300.
  • Hip shot is chip damage. Why you think it's a laser gun is beyond me. Unless you get a crit on it, its damage is usually in the 800-1000 range. Also, please note that the actual cast time is 0.84 seconds, not the tooltip time of 3/4s.
  • Net shot reduced to 1 second... this is a joke, right? The skill is verging on bad as it is for core engineer.
  • Blunderbuss is fine as is.
  • Overcharged shot currently knocks engineer back or eats a stack of stability as a drawback. Additionally, the projectile is actually pretty slow and easy to dodge if you're over 600 range away. If you want a windup, then don't let it knock us back/eat stability.
  • As far as weapons go, engineer only has 3 core weapons. One is completely in the gutter, one is niche, and you want to nerf the most viable option.
  1. Kinetic Battery still gives 5s of super speed and quickness every time it procs with no ICD. With boon duration, Holos can get permanent quickness with this trait and 5/7 uptime on super speed. If removing the Engage/Leave Photon Forge functionality helps solve this issue, that's fine by me.
  2. Why does the range on Holo leap get shorter and shorter every single time someone defends it. The tooltip on the skill says the range is 600. Someone else told me that the attack itself is 600 range but the leap portion only moves them 450 range. Now you're telling me the attack is 450 range but the movement is 300?? LOL
  3. Yes and the meta Tools Holo build has 57% base crit chance which gets bumped up to 77% crit chance with fury. Apparently all of the tooltips on engineer are wrong! Anet should fix them.
  4. A 1s immobilize is more than enough time to set up other combos. A 2 second base duration, 22% uptime on immobilize with no cast time is too strong. The immobilize on Muddy Terrain for rangers got nerfed to 1s and it had a 20s cooldown. In comparison, Net Shot is objectively stronger and more frequent.
  5. Blunderbuss needs an animation. 5-6k on a skill with an almost nonexistent tell is OP.
  6. Overcharged Shot is impossible to react to in melee range. It doesn't have a cast time and you won't have enough time to see and react to the projectile. Elixir U can also be used right after using R4 to stunbreak the knockback. In team fights, Corona Burst gives a massive amount of stability so Overcharged Shot won't self-CC anyways.
  7. I want better animations and cast times on rifle. Adding short cast time increases and clearer tells will not kill the weapon.

Again, this is another case of someone being overly dramatic about these changes. The base damage and survivability of Holos will remain almost entirely the same. I'm mainly proposing slight increases to cast times/animations and decreases in boon uptimes. Traits like Heat Therapy and Lock On are deserving heavier nerfs though.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@alain.1659 said:Well all these arguments are nice and dandy but please find a solution without destroying the core engi. Delete holo I dont care. But nerfing core utilities without giving proper buffs would destroy the profession altogether.

Please play core engi for a month in this meta with success. Then talk again. You can barely compete with core power yet you offer several nerfs claiming them to be small. If you had proposed buffs for core with the nerfs that would be something to think about.

These changes can be made in conjunction with buffs to core kits. However, balance has to start somewhere.

If core engi is already unviable, these changes wouldn't make a difference in terms of how much it's played in ranked. You can't justify Holo being overtuned because core engi is underpowered. That's horrible reasoning lol

You are seeing what you want to see there. I do not justify holo. As I told you you can delete the friggin spec altogether, hell if I care. But it is wrong to nerf the core profession without giving it a chance to be valid. As you are the one that offered the nerfs, you can also state some possible buffs to make it up for the core.

For example just like elite specs I always thought that core should have a unique set of utility/heal/elite set that elitrs cannot use. Heck even a traitline that is not usable by elite specs would be better to balance the game. I know that this is not a good one but still it is an idea to make core specs viable.

Balance should start with balance. Not with overnerfing.

This discussion is about holosmith, not core engi. I do not have to suggest buffs to core engi simultaneously in order to justify my suggestions.

The adjustments I proposed are very mild and reasonable. If you disagree, feel free to explain why.

When you talk about someone else (core engineer) it will be included in your discussion even if it isn't the main courseYour nerfs affect core engineer with minimal effect to holo, which will make the chances you propose less likely to happen causeAnets stance is to make core and other professions viable , each with their own drawbacks

I myself think holo should get pay for their forge modeWhere instead of losing health when your forge mode is full you would pay health to enter forge mode

I do think some abilities would need some changing not nerfed but changedputting the stealth part on another potion or replacing it would help for starters

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@Rico.6873 said:

@alain.1659 said:Well all these arguments are nice and dandy but please find a solution without destroying the core engi. Delete holo I dont care. But nerfing core utilities without giving proper buffs would destroy the profession altogether.

Please play core engi for a month in this meta with success. Then talk again. You can barely compete with core power yet you offer several nerfs claiming them to be small. If you had proposed buffs for core with the nerfs that would be something to think about.

These changes can be made in conjunction with buffs to core kits. However, balance has to start somewhere.

If core engi is already unviable, these changes wouldn't make a difference in terms of how much it's played in ranked. You can't justify Holo being overtuned because core engi is underpowered. That's horrible reasoning lol

You are seeing what you want to see there. I do not justify holo. As I told you you can delete the friggin spec altogether, hell if I care. But it is wrong to nerf the core profession without giving it a chance to be valid. As you are the one that offered the nerfs, you can also state some possible buffs to make it up for the core.

For example just like elite specs I always thought that core should have a unique set of utility/heal/elite set that elitrs cannot use. Heck even a traitline that is not usable by elite specs would be better to balance the game. I know that this is not a good one but still it is an idea to make core specs viable.

Balance should start with balance. Not with overnerfing.

This discussion is about holosmith, not core engi. I do not have to suggest buffs to core engi simultaneously in order to justify my suggestions.

The adjustments I proposed are very mild and reasonable. If you disagree, feel free to explain why.

When you talk about someone else (core engineer) it will be included in your discussion even if it isn't the main courseYour nerfs affect core engineer with minimal effect to holo, which will make the chances you propose less likely to happen causeAnets stance is to make core and other professions viable , each with their own drawbacks

I myself think holo should get pay for their forge modeWhere instead of losing health when your forge mode is full you would pay health to enter forge mode

I do think some abilities would need some changing not nerfed but changedputting the stealth part on another potion or replacing it would help for starters

Which is fine. But I'm not the right person to suggest buffs to core engi. The skills I've talked about in this thread make Holosmith very strong. I've suggested ways to reduce some of the spam and make it easier to see/avoid certain skills.

Core engi is kit heavy iirc so underused traitlines and the kits themselves could probably use some buffs. However, that's not what this thread is about.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"Vagrant.7206" said:

The rest of the nerfs are either based on a misunderstanding of the spec, or the core class. For example:
  • Kinetic Battery is actually not that strong on the core class. It's strong only in conjunction with holo because activating and exiting photon forge adds a stack. Remove that functionality, and kinetic battery is back to a relatively normal state.
  • Holo leap is not a 450-range leap. The attack itself is 450 range. The leap is only 300.
  • Hip shot is chip damage. Why you think it's a laser gun is beyond me. Unless you get a crit on it, its damage is usually in the 800-1000 range. Also, please note that the actual cast time is 0.84 seconds, not the tooltip time of 3/4s.
  • Net shot reduced to 1 second... this is a joke, right? The skill is verging on bad as it is for core engineer.
  • Blunderbuss is fine as is.
  • Overcharged shot currently knocks engineer back or eats a stack of stability as a drawback. Additionally, the projectile is actually pretty slow and easy to dodge if you're over 600 range away. If you want a windup, then don't let it knock us back/eat stability.
  • As far as weapons go, engineer only has 3 core weapons. One is completely in the gutter, one is niche, and you want to nerf the most viable option.
  1. Kinetic Battery still gives 5s of super speed and quickness every time it procs with no ICD. With boon duration, Holos can get permanent quickness with this trait and 5/7 uptime on super speed. If removing the Engage/Leave Photon Forge functionality helps solve this issue, that's fine by me.
  2. Why does the range on Holo leap get shorter and shorter every single time someone defends it. The tooltip on the skill says the range is 600. Someone else told me that the attack itself is 600 range but the leap portion only moves them 450 range. Now you're telling me the attack is 450 range but the movement is 300?? LOL
  3. Yes and the meta Tools Holo build has 57% base crit chance which gets bumped up to 77% crit chance with fury. Apparently all of the tooltips on engineer are wrong! Anet should fix them.
  4. A 1s immobilize is more than enough time to set up other combos. A 2 second base duration, 22% uptime on immobilize with no cast time is too strong. The immobilize on Muddy Terrain for rangers got nerfed to 1s and it had a 20s cooldown. In comparison, Net Shot is objectively stronger and more frequent.
  5. Blunderbuss needs an animation. 5-6k on a skill with an almost nonexistent tell is OP.
  6. Overcharged Shot is impossible to react to in melee range. It doesn't have a cast time and you won't have enough time to see and react to the projectile. Elixir U can also be used right after using R4 to stunbreak the knockback. In team fights, Corona Burst gives a massive amount of stability so Overcharged Shot won't self-CC anyways.
  7. I want better animations and cast times on rifle. Adding short cast time increases and clearer tells will not kill the weapon.

Again, this is another case of someone being overly dramatic about these changes. The base damage and survivability of Holos will remain almost entirely the same. I'm mainly proposing slight increases to cast times/animations and decreases in boon uptimes. Traits like Heat Therapy and Lock On
are
deserving heavier nerfs though.

  1. The ICD is the toolbelt skills themselves. Seriously, read the text for the trait. There are two "fast" cooldown toolbelt skills measuring at 8s. They are Surprise Shot and Particle Accelerator. You can also hit every skill on your toolbelt to activate it quickly, but then you have to wait for each to cool down, and you burned defensive skills for offense. The problem is that photon forge counts as a toolbelt skill for kinetic battery. It shouldn't. If you want to nerf kinetic battery, nerf that interaction.
  2. Oh, nevermind. You were right on the original statement. My bad.
  3. So you're complaining about chip damage getting crits... so it's stronger chip damage? I'm still confused on this one.
  4. Consider the ramifications of what you're saying. One sec immob is a decent setup time for holo, but not core engineer. Rifle is a core engi weapon, and nerfing immob shot would hurt core way harder.
  5. It does have an animation. Also, Blunderbuss only does that that kind of damage point blank on a crit.
  6. You can pretend it doesn't have a drawback all you like, but it does. If you want to throw on an additional animation for no reason, now you're just being biased.
  7. Uhhhhh you act like rifle's the problem with holo. It's not. Again -- core engineer has only 3 weapons. Pistol is outright trash, shield is niche (for prot holo mainly), and rifle is the most viable weapon.

Nerfing healing turret AND heat therapy together would be more than enough to send holo to the B or C tier. Not that I agree with your idea for healing turret, but all you have to do is ding the sustain to keep the spec unique without rendering it useless (and core with it).

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

The rest of the nerfs are either based on a misunderstanding of the spec, or the core class. For example:
  • Kinetic Battery is actually not that strong on the core class. It's strong only in conjunction with holo because activating and exiting photon forge adds a stack. Remove that functionality, and kinetic battery is back to a relatively normal state.
  • Holo leap is not a 450-range leap. The attack itself is 450 range. The leap is only 300.
  • Hip shot is chip damage. Why you think it's a laser gun is beyond me. Unless you get a crit on it, its damage is usually in the 800-1000 range. Also, please note that the actual cast time is 0.84 seconds, not the tooltip time of 3/4s.
  • Net shot reduced to 1 second... this is a joke, right? The skill is verging on bad as it is for core engineer.
  • Blunderbuss is fine as is.
  • Overcharged shot currently knocks engineer back or eats a stack of stability as a drawback. Additionally, the projectile is actually pretty slow and easy to dodge if you're over 600 range away. If you want a windup, then don't let it knock us back/eat stability.
  • As far as weapons go, engineer only has 3 core weapons. One is completely in the gutter, one is niche, and you want to nerf the most viable option.
  1. Kinetic Battery still gives 5s of super speed and quickness every time it procs with no ICD. With boon duration, Holos can get permanent quickness with this trait and 5/7 uptime on super speed. If removing the Engage/Leave Photon Forge functionality helps solve this issue, that's fine by me.
  2. Why does the range on Holo leap get shorter and shorter every single time someone defends it. The tooltip on the skill says the range is 600. Someone else told me that the attack itself is 600 range but the leap portion only moves them 450 range. Now you're telling me the attack is 450 range but the movement is 300?? LOL
  3. Yes and the meta Tools Holo build has 57% base crit chance which gets bumped up to 77% crit chance with fury. Apparently all of the tooltips on engineer are wrong! Anet should fix them.
  4. A 1s immobilize is more than enough time to set up other combos. A 2 second base duration, 22% uptime on immobilize with no cast time is too strong. The immobilize on Muddy Terrain for rangers got nerfed to 1s and it had a 20s cooldown. In comparison, Net Shot is objectively stronger and more frequent.
  5. Blunderbuss needs an animation. 5-6k on a skill with an almost nonexistent tell is OP.
  6. Overcharged Shot is impossible to react to in melee range. It doesn't have a cast time and you won't have enough time to see and react to the projectile. Elixir U can also be used right after using R4 to stunbreak the knockback. In team fights, Corona Burst gives a massive amount of stability so Overcharged Shot won't self-CC anyways.
  7. I want better animations and cast times on rifle. Adding short cast time increases and clearer tells will not kill the weapon.

Again, this is another case of someone being overly dramatic about these changes. The base damage and survivability of Holos will remain almost entirely the same. I'm mainly proposing slight increases to cast times/animations and decreases in boon uptimes. Traits like Heat Therapy and Lock On
are
deserving heavier nerfs though.

  1. The ICD is the toolbelt skills themselves. Seriously, read the text for the trait. There are two "fast" cooldown toolbelt skills measuring at 8s. They are
    and
    . You can also hit every skill on your toolbelt to activate it quickly, but then you have to wait for each to cool down, and you burned defensive skills for offense. The problem is that photon forge counts as a toolbelt skill for kinetic battery. It shouldn't. If you want to nerf kinetic battery, nerf that interaction.
  2. Oh, nevermind. You were right on the original statement. My bad.
  3. So you're complaining about chip damage getting crits... so it's stronger chip damage? I'm still confused on this one.
  4. Consider the ramifications of what you're saying. One sec immob is a decent setup time for holo, but not core engineer. Rifle is a core engi weapon, and nerfing immob shot would hurt core way harder.
  5. It does have an animation. Also, Blunderbuss only does that that kind of damage point blank on a crit.
  6. You can pretend it doesn't have a drawback all you like, but it does. If you want to throw on an additional animation for no reason, now you're just being biased.
  7. Uhhhhh you act like rifle's the problem with holo. It's not. Again -- core engineer has only 3 weapons. Pistol is outright trash, shield is niche (for prot holo mainly), and rifle is the most viable weapon.

Nerfing healing turret AND heat therapy together would be more than enough to send holo to the B or C tier. Not that I agree with your idea for healing turret, but all you have to do is ding the sustain to keep the spec unique without rendering it useless (and core with it).
  1. Mechanized Deployment reduces the cycle time on Kinetic Battery to 7 second on meta Tools Holo. If you don't want to increase the maximum stacks required to 10, placing an ICD of 20 seconds on the trait would suffice.
  2. Np.
  3. Even if the base cast time on Hip Shot is .84s instead of .75s, quickness reduces that to .63s. In other words, the Holo can laser you for up to 2k damage just over every half a second.
  4. Muddy Terrain's immobilize from Soften the Fall got reduced to 1s and it has a 20s cooldown. One second is more than enough time for core engi to setup a followup skill.
  5. It's a very minor animation even without quickness. Quickness makes the .5s base cast time into .375 which is just over the average human's reaction time to visual stimuli.
  6. You can pretend like it's not easy to cover the drawback all you like, but it is. You think I'm biased for wanting a clear animation on a short cooldown, long duration CC skill? LOL
  7. Uhhhhh you act like I only suggested changes to rifle. There are a multitude of overtuned things that make Holo OP.
  8. An increase of a quarter of a second to the cast time on Healing Turret is a very, very minor change.
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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@gdubze.6015 said:he doesnt care, his spec got nerfed so now hes on the warpath to kill every spec in the game.

These changes wouldn't kill holo.

You can try to prove me wrong if you'd like.

It would kill Holo, and core, Hammer Scrapper would be the scuffed best engi spec in PvP lol.

Think you're underestimating how screwed you are when you have a transformation with a 6s exit prevention, that also prevents your heal, stunbreaks, defensive skills. Entering photon forge would be instant death without the stability trait and landing corona burst. All you'd have to do is immediately pop stability & target the Holo when he transforms - very often it wouldn't be at full health too.

Combine that with all the other substantial nerfs, Holosmith would be worse than Spellbreaker on duels, teamfights, 1vX. It'd join Core add Scrapper in the obsolete but cool tier. Scrapper would be all around better.

all those nerfs would screw over holo for sure.but seriously I always thought photon forge had a large cooldown, and then I saw guy just pop in and out like its nothing.giving it something like 20s CD after exiting forge as a cooldown would be a good start.could make the cooldown lower/higher depending on heat or make you unable to holo untill you have 0 heat.some slight nerfs here and there and we could see how it goes.

PS bruiser like holo should never have access to stealth. EVER.

You can bake self reveals into Holo skills & photon forge because you can't take away Toss Elixir S / smoke fields from Engi, which are core to the class.

It's vent exhaust that allows PF to be online more often. Without that trait the Photon Forge really is on around a 20s cooldown heat cycle, which is still really fun, (try using Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit GM major trait.)

in general, stealth is give to light classes as devensive/offensive tool. defensively to disengaging and offensively to setting up combo/bursts.more often then not light classes have fast cast, low impact abilites that when combined provide decent outcome, while heavy classes have long casttime, big effect attacks.hiding 1/4s casttime in stealth is not a big deal, hiding over 1s casttime ability with stealth, on a class that can sustain in a fight ( thus dont need stealth for defence ) means that they can use it more towards offence/utility.

I want you to play mesmer with mass invis and holo with elixir stealth.and just count how often you can freely use one of those stealths for offence/utility ( rez/stop ) and how ofte you HAVE TO use it to disengage.

adding self reveal to the spec would have to be placed in sooo many places. holo->stealth is not fine. steath->plb is not fine.stealth-> healing turret combos is questionable.I dont wanna make over the top suggestions for holo beccouse i dont play/know much abbout the class to make assumptions.but I do know as someone who pays attention to what my allies/opponents do, that stealth is part of the holo problem.

All they have to do is make it so if you use a skill while stealth, you get revealed. Problem solved.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@gdubze.6015 said:he doesnt care, his spec got nerfed so now hes on the warpath to kill every spec in the game.

These changes wouldn't kill holo.

You can try to prove me wrong if you'd like.

It would kill Holo, and core, Hammer Scrapper would be the scuffed best engi spec in PvP lol.

Think you're underestimating how screwed you are when you have a transformation with a 6s exit prevention, that also prevents your heal, stunbreaks, defensive skills. Entering photon forge would be instant death without the stability trait and landing corona burst. All you'd have to do is immediately pop stability & target the Holo when he transforms - very often it wouldn't be at full health too.

Combine that with all the other substantial nerfs, Holosmith would be worse than Spellbreaker on duels, teamfights, 1vX. It'd join Core add Scrapper in the obsolete but cool tier. Scrapper would be all around better.

all those nerfs would screw over holo for sure.but seriously I always thought photon forge had a large cooldown, and then I saw guy just pop in and out like its nothing.giving it something like 20s CD after exiting forge as a cooldown would be a good start.could make the cooldown lower/higher depending on heat or make you unable to holo untill you have 0 heat.some slight nerfs here and there and we could see how it goes.

PS bruiser like holo should never have access to stealth. EVER.

You can bake self reveals into Holo skills & photon forge because you can't take away Toss Elixir S / smoke fields from Engi, which are core to the class.

It's vent exhaust that allows PF to be online more often. Without that trait the Photon Forge really is on around a 20s cooldown heat cycle, which is still really fun, (try using Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit GM major trait.)

in general, stealth is give to light classes as devensive/offensive tool. defensively to disengaging and offensively to setting up combo/bursts.more often then not light classes have fast cast, low impact abilites that when combined provide decent outcome, while heavy classes have long casttime, big effect attacks.hiding 1/4s casttime in stealth is not a big deal, hiding over 1s casttime ability with stealth, on a class that can sustain in a fight ( thus dont need stealth for defence ) means that they can use it more towards offence/utility.

I want you to play mesmer with mass invis and holo with elixir stealth.and just count how often you can freely use one of those stealths for offence/utility ( rez/stop ) and how ofte you HAVE TO use it to disengage.

adding self reveal to the spec would have to be placed in sooo many places. holo->stealth is not fine. steath->plb is not fine.stealth-> healing turret combos is questionable.I dont wanna make over the top suggestions for holo beccouse i dont play/know much abbout the class to make assumptions.but I do know as someone who pays attention to what my allies/opponents do, that stealth is part of the holo problem.

I think extensive stealth is absolutely a big part of the problem with Holo's over the top sustain/re-sustain and damage. The 6 seconds of stealth every 30 seconds afforded by traited Toss Elixir S enables those nearly full heals anytime the Holo actually gets in trouble. On top of that, the re-sustain gets followed up by a CC plus burst from stealth. Literally top-tier defense plus offense in one virtually uninterruptible mechanic.

I had the joy of dueling just such a Holo the day this discussion opened. Within the course of our perhaps 40 second duel he tossed Elixir S twice, effectively getting two near full resets without ever having to leave. Both times he followed with a CC plus burst from stealth. Nothing about that experience felt fair or fun.

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