Elite Specializations without an expansion?

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Frankly, without an expansion coming, we're not likely to see any new elite specs in the foreseeable future. This might be for the best, though - if they

were

to be released through LS, they'd likely end up massively monetized.

Never say never but I can't see them ever doing that.

New elite specs often powercreep older ones and become meta. Having them monetized outside an expansion bundle would be blatant p2w. Crossing a line like that would cause unprecedented backlash. Anet may be disconnected and desperate these days but that would be suicidal.

If new Elite Specs are powercreep and paying for them is pay to win then why is paying for them inside an expansion ok but paying for them as a stand alone purchase is blatant p2w?

Do I really need to explain the difference between an account unlock and a full fledged expansion pack?

Yes you said one way was blatant p2win and the other was not. I think you need to explain why paying for something by method A is ok but paying for something by method B is blatant pay to win.If method A payment is an account unlock then so is method B. Or explain why buying one way is an account unlock but paying by another way is not, even though you pay and unlock either way.

Disregarding the obvious fallacy of equating an xpac to a targeted account unlock, I will make the attempt anyway.

Expansions are big content packs. The first elite specs came with HoT. They were just one feature alongside many others like 4 new sprawling maps, gliding, new class, mastery system, guild halls, plenty of new weapons and armor. An expansion is sold with the intention of ...expanding many areas of the game. It may include some form of powercreep, but it's generally accepted since it's not created to be just that. Other games raise their level cap with xpacs for example.

Now, considering how Anet has handled elite specs in the past, it's safe to assume that some competitive advantage could be found in new ones (even unintentional). Having a gem store elite spec unlock would be serving only one purpose. Selling that advantage. I don't know about you but I'd consider a gem store item, whose only purpose is selling power, blatant p2w. And I'd bet that's how the vast majority of the playerbase and media would view it too.

So you are saying something is non p2w if it’s sold with some maps and their events and p2w if it’s sold separately without the maps and events

Yes, I'm saying selling a targeted store item that provides a competitive advantage is p2w. Quite shocking isn't it? I guess I'm feeling bold and radical today.

Also oversimplification is often a sign of a weak argument. You know too well a proper expansion is more than "some maps and their events".

Either way you are putting down money for that item and those who can’t afford it are not, yet must play alongside you or across from you on WvW/sPvP. Those that didn’t buy it don’t find it less p2w just because you bought it with an expansion.

It’s either p2w or it’s not. How you bought it or what was bundled with it doesn’t change how it works when playing with or against those who don’t own it.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:We need some new ones, cool ones. PoF's were kinda bleh

New ones will be cool or not based on individual perspective. I think the PoF ones were better than HoT ones. I preferred those over the HoT ones.

some were cool but some weren't on both fronts. I want some more occultist/Eldritch stuff and maybe a spec based around Ice and not fire something like Svanir for revenant which is all about becoming a big monster and wrecking the battlefield with havoc and chaos.

I just want them to make some darker, and otherwise more thematic specs as the ones we have now don't feel as much as they could in the themes they are rooted. Id love a Nightmare conjuring madness inducing warlock for Messmer. And Id love a demonlogist for necromancer, A dervish for warrior and for guardian give them the ritualist with the ashes of the fallen swirling around them as protective wards. Stuff like that~

[Arkham Creed.7358]

I'd be thankful if people would please cease this debate about expansion verses DLC, as it is not the point of this thread. Also you are just talking past each other, each believing you are right and not hearing the other. To aid in this, I'm going to tell you why this is a pointless thing to argue about.

The difference between an expansion and DLC is ultimately subjective. Either way you are paying additional funds over the base game for additional content. And in both cases the price point, at least ideally, is intended to be reasonable for the amount of content you obtain. In this regard there is no difference between the two business models, this debate comes down to the subjective preference and values of the player in question, not the content or the monetization method.

Some players feel more comfortable paying for large scale downloadable content, using the term expansion pack, for them. This is because these content bundles (and that is really all it is, everything in any expansion ever could have been divided into smaller content packs without issue) FEEL like "a whole new game." Ask anyone and they will tell you that an expansion pack should be a large amount of new content that reinvents the core experience in a way just shy of an entirely new game. This is why some games, such as Borderlands The Pre-Sequel, are criticized as being "glorified expansion packs." In this regard they can justify it as something other than paying additional money for new content that can and does give them an edge in competitive play. They just hand wave that away due to buying into marketing; saying this is the "next phase" of the game proper and that everyone should thereby be obtaining it and thus be on the same playing field, negating that implicit advantage.

By the same token, these same players are dismissive of smaller scale DLC purchases, because their small size, lower comparative cost, and inherently smaller individual impact on gameplay makes them seem "optional." As a result they take offense to the idea of buying a gameplay advantage through what they consider disposable and trivial content. Flat power increases shouldn't be marketed as "optional." The problem is that this perception of smaller scale DLC being purely optional is something they just made up, and is only enforced because they rage against doing it any other way.

Ironically Arena Net and Guild Wars 2 already has these non-optional small scale, low cost, DLCs that do provide undeniable gameplay advantages AND have a cumulative effect to much larger systemic gameplay changes if you buy several. I am of course talking about the Living World. We don't see that as DLC because a dedicated player can get whole seasons free of charge by regularly logging in, but don't forget that if you're new you have to pay for these things, either by the episode or as bundles. And they DO offer obvious gameplay advantages. Legendary trinkets, for example, are only obtainable through recent Living World seasons, meaning that players who now much PAY for those episodes get a clear gameplay advantage and mechanical power boost included with their purchase. The only difference between an expansion pack and Living World is that one of them is divided up into smaller releases spread over time. And that only matters if you are there at release. If you are a new player today wanting to play through season 4 you have to pay for it, and at a price not too much lower than a traditional expansion pack. But nobody rages against the inherent pay-to-win aspect of the Living World not because of anything technical about the system, but because it doesn't subjectively "feel" the same. The debate between elite specs being sold separately as a DLC pack or included in a Living World release, verses being included in an expansion, is exactly the same situation. Technically there is little difference, but it "FEELS" different to some people.

[Ultramex.1506]

I think it would just devalue Exp more, need more stuffs to convince people to buy it.

[lare.5129]

any simple re-balance can break/create more changes that big pack wiht additional specializations.Thief have portal, chrno not welcome in cms, and more other changes come without any additional spec.Also I am sure that any addtional spec will be more loook as deep fake, so I am not will be interested in that.Ofc additional trait line for aquatic content have mind. But ONLY if some aquatic content will be added. And again, I don't like aquatic content after reworked fractal //

[Astralporing.1957]

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:If people are saying it’s price and availability to the average players that determines if it’s p2w then it could be argued that selling ESpecs separately is less p2w, assuming that it’s cheaper than an expansion.Ah, but would it be cheaper than expansion? Template system for example would end up for me costing around the same as ten expacs.

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@Healix.5819 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:If new Elite Specs are powercreep and paying for them is pay to win then why is paying for them inside an expansion ok but paying for them as a stand alone purchase is blatant p2w?

Buying expansions / buying the full game is the base line. If you were to consider expansions as being P2W, then everything is. P2W is only when you specifically spend extra money (on the cash shop) for an advantage, but it isn't truly P2W until it becomes unrealistic for normal players to compete with them.

I know you’re attempting to explain it but players might not be able to buy an expansion either, which would make selling ESpecs through an expansion p2w, if using that logic.

If the ESpec is pay to win then it’s p2w no matter how it’s sold, either bundled with an expansion or sold separately.It's true, technically expansions are always pay to win, unless you get them for free. They generally aren't seen to be such

only

because buying expansions is considered to be baseline.

Everyone

is supposed to buy expacs at some point.

TL/DR;Yes, selling targeted store item that provides a competitive advantage is always pay to win. Selling expacs is usually also pay to win. The only difference is that latter method is (for many reasons) generally accepted way of doing that by the community, while a gemstore purchase isn't.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@"Arkham Creed.7358" said:I'd be thankful if people would please cease this debate about expansion verses DLC, as it is not the point of this thread. Also you are just talking past each other, each believing you are right and not hearing the other. To aid in this, I'm going to tell you why this is a pointless thing to argue about.

The difference between an expansion and DLC is ultimately subjective. Either way you are paying additional funds over the base game for additional content. And in both cases the price point, at least ideally, is intended to be reasonable for the amount of content you obtain. In this regard there is no difference between the two business models, this debate comes down to the subjective preference and values of the player in question, not the content or the monetization method.

Some players feel more comfortable paying for large scale downloadable content, using the term expansion pack, for them. This is because these content bundles (and that is really all it is, everything in any expansion ever could have been divided into smaller content packs without issue) FEEL like "a whole new game." Ask anyone and they will tell you that an expansion pack should be a large amount of new content that reinvents the core experience in a way just shy of an entirely new game. This is why some games, such as Borderlands The Pre-Sequel, are criticized as being "glorified expansion packs." In this regard they can justify it as something other than paying additional money for new content that can and does give them an edge in competitive play. They just hand wave that away due to buying into marketing; saying this is the "next phase" of the game proper and that everyone should thereby be obtaining it and thus be on the same playing field, negating that implicit advantage.

By the same token, these same players are dismissive of smaller scale DLC purchases, because their small size, lower comparative cost, and inherently smaller individual impact on gameplay makes them seem "optional." As a result they take offense to the idea of buying a gameplay advantage through what they consider disposable and trivial content. Flat power increases shouldn't be marketed as "optional." The problem is that this perception of smaller scale DLC being purely optional is something they just made up, and is only enforced because they rage against doing it any other way.

Ironically Arena Net and Guild Wars 2 already has these non-optional small scale, low cost, DLCs that do provide undeniable gameplay advantages AND have a cumulative effect to much larger systemic gameplay changes if you buy several. I am of course talking about the Living World. We don't see that as DLC because a dedicated player can get whole seasons free of charge by regularly logging in, but don't forget that if you're new you have to pay for these things, either by the episode or as bundles. And they DO offer obvious gameplay advantages. Legendary trinkets, for example, are only obtainable through recent Living World seasons, meaning that players who now much PAY for those episodes get a clear gameplay advantage and mechanical power boost included with their purchase. The only difference between an expansion pack and Living World is that one of them is divided up into smaller releases spread over time. And that only matters if you are there at release. If you are a new player today wanting to play through season 4 you have to pay for it, and at a price not too much lower than a traditional expansion pack. But nobody rages against the inherent pay-to-win aspect of the Living World not because of anything technical about the system, but because it doesn't subjectively "feel" the same. The debate between elite specs being sold separately as a DLC pack or included in a Living World release, verses being included in an expansion, is exactly the same situation. Technically there is little difference, but it "FEELS" different to some people.

The old debate about the differences of traditional expansion packs to dlc may not be on topic but the possible implementation of elite specs outside an xpac is, and that's what the discussion really is about. Technically speaking, a transmutation charge is also downloadable content but it would be insanity to ever compare that to an expansion.

I take issue with how Anet monetizes LS, especially for new players but I see no comparison with a possible elite spec unlock. Whatever exclusives are included in LS don't provide a direct gameplay advantage comparable with the effect elite specs had in both PvE and PvP meta. Monetized elite specs would be doing just that. Do you want to play that broken new build that trivializes hardcore PvE or PvP? Better pony up. You could argue xpacs do the same but as Astral pointed above, it's generally accepted and expected from an xpac to radically shake things up. After all it's supposed to be a "whole new game" as you said. It's not the same with an isolated p2w feature meant to nickel and dime.

To go back to your OP question, it's perfectly possible for Anet to provide elite specs. I would argue that it should also be expected, as the content/feature void left from no expansions needs to be filled but apparently Anet disagrees with that. I don't think it's that probable though.

Anet seems allergic to offering any kind of major feature without an attempt to squeeze every last penny from it these days. And as pointed above, monetizing features through the store is often far more costly to the player than an expansion bundle. But this one feature is extremely risky in that regard. With their first directly p2w item they could practically kill their game. Add to that the trouble they've had with class balance since elites rolled out, alongside the limited design space they have left and you can see the probability going further down.

[TheGrimm.5624]

Since they have said they are not working on an expansion at this time and that they want to deliver expansion level content via the living story, then yes I would expect new elites at some point since they are a core feature of an expansion. They also have all the people over the last two expansions that said they wanted new elites but in advance of new story content so that they could enjoy both. If they put it thru that way I could see them doing this. They also seem to be going the ala carte method for new features so I could see this being a gem store transactions. That would also fit the various requests of people saying they want or do not. The players would be choosing themselves if they are interested in the e-spec. Either case would like new ones, e-specs offer additional replayability of older content and keeps thing fresh in WvW and PvP as there will be new builds and tactics that will have to be employed. That said they should continue to improve existing core, PoF and HoT traits that are under-utilized on the builds we have now.

[Thornwolf.9721]

They would need to have two different forms of which these can be acquired, either Individually or packed together. I assume the pack would cost 30$ and the single spec purchases would be like maybe 5$ or something akin to that. I don't see this as a big deal either as some people don't want them all and people like me do want them all so I Can dink with them and see what I enjoy; So make it so we can pick and choose OR we have the ability to just do a one stop shop. It can't be more expensive than the expansions of the past, and I doubt it would be something people would buy at 60$+ because thats just absurd (Unless it comes with spec armor, and a bunch of transmog as well which i HIGHLY doubt it will.)

That being said E-specs help the game not become stale because it offers new gameplay and cool cosmetics in the form of skill animations, and feel. Without them burn out will mount and everything will be floundering much like the Pre-HoT living world. Which I left early in because I grew tired of the classes at that point; And the gameplay they offered E-specs brought me back and have held me pretty rock steady since. I don't know how I would feel if they just never did another set of E-specs Id feel like Id have nothing to really progress and learn. (Couldn't care less about "Hardcore pve" if there is even such a thing.) It would also help in WvW and PvP especially if the elites were built to contend and even counter the current E-specs and crush the meta as we know it.

1. The specs need to be built to smash the other e-specs, and counter what they offer to make them viable. (The next necromancer spec needs to counter both scourge and reaper. for example.)
2. They need to be unique and not feel samey, Im voting for darker themes and maybe realms of which guild wars has yet to tred.
3. They need feel different from the current specs and core, without de-valuing them while also shaking up the meta (A daunting task.)
4. They need to offer new play-styles than currently available.
5. they need to be viable, valuable and fun in ALL game-modes and not be the "Raid spec" or the "PvP spec" they need to be an aspect of the class and its individuality and uniqueness and be something usable and viable 100% of the time wherever it goes. (This needs to be addressed for other specs as well that we currently have.)

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:They would need to have two different forms of which these can be acquired, either Individually or packed together. I assume the pack would cost 30$ and the single spec purchases would be like maybe 5$ or something akin to that. I don't see this as a big deal either as some people don't want them all and people like me do want them all so I Can dink with them and see what I enjoy; So make it so we can pick and choose OR we have the ability to just do a one stop shop. It can't be more expensive than the expansions of the past, and I doubt it would be something people would buy at 60$+ because thats just absurd (Unless it comes with spec armor, and a bunch of transmog as well which i HIGHLY doubt it will.)

That being said E-specs help the game not become stale because it offers new gameplay and cool cosmetics in the form of skill animations, and feel. Without them burn out will mount and everything will be floundering much like the Pre-HoT living world. Which I left early in because I grew tired of the classes at that point; And the gameplay they offered E-specs brought me back and have held me pretty rock steady since. I don't know how I would feel if they just never did another set of E-specs Id feel like Id have nothing to really progress and learn. (Couldn't care less about "Hardcore pve" if there is even such a thing.) It would also help in WvW and PvP especially if the elites were built to contend and even counter the current E-specs and crush the meta as we know it.

1. The specs need to be built to smash the other e-specs, and counter what they offer to make them viable. (The next necromancer spec needs to counter both scourge and reaper. for example.)
2. They need to be unique and not feel samey, Im voting for darker themes and maybe realms of which guild wars has yet to tred.
3. They need feel different from the current specs and core, without de-valuing them while also shaking up the meta (A daunting task.)
4. They need to offer new play-styles than currently available.
5. they need to be viable, valuable and fun in ALL game-modes and not be the "Raid spec" or the "PvP spec" they need to be an aspect of the class and its individuality and uniqueness and be something usable and viable 100% of the time wherever it goes. (This needs to be addressed for other specs as well that we currently have.)

30$, the price of the last expansion, for just specs. Seems fair! If you wanna go the pw2 route, better go all out I guess...

On one hand I kinda want this to happen. Stories of dev hubris being punished are always entertaining. In addition, seeing the flimsy argument against any kind of criticism towards the gem store being destroyed could also be amusing. "It's just cosmetic/convenience, not pw2, so stop whining." Well not anymore!

On the other hand, I still consider this to be a good MMOrpg with potential to grow despite its age. Having its devs shooting themselves on the foot would be a shame. Especially for a game that used to be the gold standard (highest rated MMOrpg in many publications/sites at launch).

[Thornwolf.9721]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:They would need to have two different forms of which these can be acquired, either Individually or packed together. I assume the pack would cost 30$ and the single spec purchases would be like maybe 5$ or something akin to that. I don't see this as a big deal either as some people don't want them all and people like me do want them all so I Can dink with them and see what I enjoy; So make it so we can pick and choose OR we have the ability to just do a one stop shop. It can't be more expensive than the expansions of the past, and I doubt it would be something people would buy at 60$+ because thats just absurd (Unless it comes with spec armor, and a bunch of transmog as well which i HIGHLY doubt it will.)

That being said E-specs help the game not become stale because it offers new gameplay and cool cosmetics in the form of skill animations, and feel. Without them burn out will mount and everything will be floundering much like the Pre-HoT living world. Which I left early in because I grew tired of the classes at that point; And the gameplay they offered E-specs brought me back and have held me pretty rock steady since. I don't know how I would feel if they just never did another set of E-specs Id feel like Id have nothing to really progress and learn. (Couldn't care less about "Hardcore pve" if there is even such a thing.) It would also help in WvW and PvP especially if the elites were built to contend and even counter the current E-specs and crush the meta as we know it.

1. The specs need to be built to smash the other e-specs, and counter what they offer to make them viable. (The next necromancer spec needs to counter both scourge and reaper. for example.)
2. They need to be unique and not feel samey, Im voting for darker themes and maybe realms of which guild wars has yet to tred.
3. They need feel different from the current specs and core, without de-valuing them while also shaking up the meta (A daunting task.)
4. They need to offer new play-styles than currently available.
5. they need to be viable, valuable and fun in ALL game-modes and not be the "Raid spec" or the "PvP spec" they need to be an aspect of the class and its individuality and uniqueness and be something usable and viable 100% of the time wherever it goes. (This needs to be addressed for other specs as well that we currently have.)

30$, the price of the last expansion, for just specs. Seems fair! If you wanna go the pw2 route, better go all out I guess...

On one hand I kinda want this to happen. Stories of dev hubris being punished are always entertaining. In addition, seeing the flimsy argument against any kind of criticism towards the gem store being destroyed could also be amusing. "It's just cosmetic/convenience, not pw2, so stop whining." Well not anymore!

On the other hand, I still consider this to be a good MMOrpg with potential to grow despite its age. Having its devs shooting themselves on the foot would be a shame. Especially for a game that used to be the gold standard (highest rated MMOrpg in many publications/sites at launch).

You sound like you're a bit entitled mate, If they don't release E-specs people will leave. If they do people will be upset; I Feel like people being upset but getting over it is fine. And let me be clear you didn't read the post at all I said in there that people can pay individually for specs, its not pay to win as core can compete and often beat E-specs. You either don't play the game at all or are trolling because we have seen core specs and core classes become very powerful over the previous reworks I mean Core necromancer in my opinion vastly over-shadows the elite specs. A core necromancer has so many tools and tricks where as the others get limited as reaper is primarily in melee range during its shroud and its Weapon is not very good in WvW or PvP because of how it functions. (You do not want to try and out box a warrior on reaper, a warrior has so many tools that will clap you its hilarious.)

So no its not pay to win, its paying for what is essentially new classes and new ways to play. Which is fair enough considering the level of work required by E-specs and the amount of time it takes to develop them and their trait-lines + The little cosmetic thing you get with them. ONTOP of the collection after unlocking them, so no I feel 30$ is fair for ALL of them in a pack. But you don't need to spend that much and can buy the ones you like which is a huge boon because there are tons of E-specs I didn't like in PoF that I didn't want and don't play. I still unlocked them just to have them there but they were not and ARE NOT a necessity to play the game, you still need to buy PoF to get into the Saga is that pay to win?

Build templates. IS that pay to win? Because that feature in of itself is far larger and more encompassing than E-specs, Every single game charges for additional content and guild wars doesn't. E-specs are one of the few things im ok with them charging for simply because its always been something we paid for, Thirty dollars for Nine E-specs essentially nine new classes and HUNDREDS of hours of replay-ability is NOT pay to win. You don't like it? Don't buy it. No one is making you but if you think for one moment that this is pay to win, then I have bad news for you. NO GAME GIVES OUT STUFF LIKE THIS FOR FREE, NOT EVER.

You claim you see potential? Reaching it needs funds, and us buying the E-specs is funding for more of them. If they were to prove not to be lucrative im sure A-net would leave it be and never, ever, ever make a new one again. Hell we might already be there so its either we prepare to pay for them or sit here and not get anything new, because maps and story will NOT continue this games life-span. Living world Seasons 1 + 2 proved this when the community began drizzling out, I was one of them because at this point im well aware that the writing and story will never be better than a Sci-fi movie (The original movies with low budgets.) hell even most of them are better, do you really assume that plus some masteries will sate people? No it will just drive the population further into the ground.

You've never seen pay to win, now Archeage in its original form and BDO is pay to win. Hell even ESO is pay to win at least it is further than this game EVER will be, that game pulls ALL OF THE CONTENT APART. And then it has the audacity to sell it back to you Or you can pay the optional sub and get everything, but the moment you stop you won't be able to play your characters if they happen to be expansion characters (Warden or necromancer.) Or you can spend the exuberant amounts of money to buy it all individually... That is what I constituent as pay to win and this is not that. And Im sure you know that.... so stop beating a dead horse.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:They would need to have two different forms of which these can be acquired, either Individually or packed together. I assume the pack would cost 30$ and the single spec purchases would be like maybe 5$ or something akin to that. I don't see this as a big deal either as some people don't want them all and people like me do want them all so I Can dink with them and see what I enjoy; So make it so we can pick and choose OR we have the ability to just do a one stop shop. It can't be more expensive than the expansions of the past, and I doubt it would be something people would buy at 60$+ because thats just absurd (Unless it comes with spec armor, and a bunch of transmog as well which i HIGHLY doubt it will.)

That being said E-specs help the game not become stale because it offers new gameplay and cool cosmetics in the form of skill animations, and feel. Without them burn out will mount and everything will be floundering much like the Pre-HoT living world. Which I left early in because I grew tired of the classes at that point; And the gameplay they offered E-specs brought me back and have held me pretty rock steady since. I don't know how I would feel if they just never did another set of E-specs Id feel like Id have nothing to really progress and learn. (Couldn't care less about "Hardcore pve" if there is even such a thing.) It would also help in WvW and PvP especially if the elites were built to contend and even counter the current E-specs and crush the meta as we know it.

1. The specs need to be built to smash the other e-specs, and counter what they offer to make them viable. (The next necromancer spec needs to counter both scourge and reaper. for example.)
2. They need to be unique and not feel samey, Im voting for darker themes and maybe realms of which guild wars has yet to tred.
3. They need feel different from the current specs and core, without de-valuing them while also shaking up the meta (A daunting task.)
4. They need to offer new play-styles than currently available.
5. they need to be viable, valuable and fun in ALL game-modes and not be the "Raid spec" or the "PvP spec" they need to be an aspect of the class and its individuality and uniqueness and be something usable and viable 100% of the time wherever it goes. (This needs to be addressed for other specs as well that we currently have.)

30$, the price of the last expansion, for just specs. Seems fair! If you wanna go the pw2 route, better go all out I guess...

On one hand I kinda want this to happen. Stories of dev hubris being punished are always entertaining. In addition, seeing the flimsy argument against any kind of criticism towards the gem store being destroyed could also be amusing. "It's just cosmetic/convenience, not pw2, so stop whining." Well not anymore!

On the other hand, I still consider this to be a good MMOrpg with potential to grow despite its age. Having its devs shooting themselves on the foot would be a shame. Especially for a game that used to be the gold standard (highest rated MMOrpg in many publications/sites at launch).

You sound like you're a bit entitled mate, If they don't release E-specs people will leave. If they do people will be upset; I Feel like people being upset but getting over it is fine. And let me be clear you didn't read the post at all I said in there that people can pay individually for specs, its not pay to win as core can compete and often beat E-specs. You either don't play the game at all or are trolling because we have seen core specs and core classes become very powerful over the previous reworks I mean Core necromancer in my opinion vastly over-shadows the elite specs. A core necromancer has so many tools and tricks where as the others get limited as reaper is primarily in melee range during its shroud and its Weapon is not very good in WvW or PvP because of how it functions. (You do not want to try and out box a warrior on reaper, a warrior has so many tools that will clap you its hilarious.)

So no its not pay to win, its paying for what is essentially new classes and new ways to play. Which is fair enough considering the level of work required by E-specs and the amount of time it takes to develop them and their trait-lines + The little cosmetic thing you get with them. ONTOP of the collection after unlocking them, so no I feel 30$ is fair for ALL of them in a pack. But you don't need to spend that much and can buy the ones you like which is a huge boon because there are tons of E-specs I didn't like in PoF that I didn't want and don't play. I still unlocked them just to have them there but they were not and ARE NOT a necessity to play the game, you still need to buy PoF to get into the Saga is that pay to win?

Build templates. IS that pay to win? Because that feature in of itself is far larger and more encompassing than E-specs, Every single game charges for additional content and guild wars doesn't. E-specs are one of the few things im ok with them charging for simply because its always been something we paid for, Thirty dollars for Nine E-specs essentially nine new classes and HUNDREDS of hours of replay-ability is NOT pay to win. You don't like it? Don't buy it. No one is making you but if you think for one moment that this is pay to win, then I have bad news for you.

NO GAME GIVES OUT STUFF LIKE THIS FOR FREE, NOT EVER.

You claim you see potential? Reaching it needs funds, and us buying the E-specs is funding for more of them. If they were to prove not to be lucrative im sure A-net would leave it be and never, ever, ever make a new one again. Hell we might already be there so its either we prepare to pay for them or sit here and not get anything new, because maps and story will NOT continue this games life-span. Living world Seasons 1 + 2 proved this when the community began drizzling out, I was one of them because at this point im well aware that the writing and story will never be better than a Sci-fi movie (The original movies with low budgets.) hell even most of them are better, do you really assume that plus some masteries will sate people? No it will just drive the population further into the ground.

You've never seen pay to win, now Archeage in its original form and BDO is pay to win. Hell even ESO is pay to win at least it is further than this game EVER will be, that game pulls ALL OF THE CONTENT APART. And then it has the audacity to sell it back to you Or you can pay the optional sub and get everything, but the moment you stop you won't be able to play your characters if they happen to be expansion characters (Warden or necromancer.) Or you can spend the exuberant amounts of money to buy it all individually... That is what I constituent as pay to win and this is not that. And Im sure you know that.... so stop beating a dead horse.

Devs release new specs.

Some of these specs result in broken builds that are blatantly overpowered compared to previous builds. They become meta, everyone is using them and they are required in groups.

Using them allows one to get in groups, perform and complete both PvP and PvE content with more ease. AKA helps one win at this game.

Said specs are up for sale. One needs to pay to obtain them.

But it's not P2W!!!

....Seems legit. I mean it's in bold for emphasis so it has to be....

Also might want to try closing without a moral equivalence "not as bad as" type of argument next time.

[Arkham Creed.7358]

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:it's generally accepted and expected from an xpac to radically shake things up. After all it's supposed to be a "whole new game" as you said. It's not the same with an isolated p2w feature meant to nickel and dime.

This perfectly encapsulates my point. Phrases like "generally accepted" and "meant to nickel and dine" are basically an admission that this issue is entirely subjective. You need to get over this stubborn belief that smaller DLC features aren't allowed to impact the game in a major way, because it's not true. If Arena Net wants to split the next planned expansion pack into five or six smaller releases so they can send them out while continuing to develop (and fund the development of) future content they are fully capable of doing that. Really the only difference between an expansion and living story is "act now and get this for just four easy payments of $9.99!" Saying these things are meant to nickel and dime isn't a fact; it's your perception based on your own subjective trivialization of small scale DLC.

[Arkham Creed.7358]

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:Devs release new specs.

Some of these specs result in broken builds that are blatantly overpowered compared to previous builds. They become meta, everyone is using them and they are required in groups.

Using them allows one to get in groups, perform and complete both PvP and PvE content with more ease. AKA helps one win at this game.

Said specs are up for sale. One needs to pay to obtain them.

But it's not P2W!!!

....Seems legit. I mean it's in bold for emphasis so it has to be....

You are making one all important assumption here; that these specs are supposed to be power creep. I'd argue that each new crop becoming "meta" isn't actually because of their overall power level. In fact I personally find the older specs to be better in several situations. These elite specs appear to be intended as "horizontal progression," that is to say no one is more powerful than another, they are just better suited to certain tasks. For example a Firebrand Guardian is great for a condition build. not subpar if you're building for a ranged DPS build. The reason why people jump on them and turn them meta is because A; they assume that being new they must be better, as you clearly do. And B; boredom. Everyone gets tired of the existing specs and flock to the new shiny as soon as it comes out, then rationalize their choice by convincing themselves they are objectively better when they are not, or at least not meant to be. So I have to ask you a question, hypothetically speaking....

Would you consider it pay-to-win if the new elite specs objectively DO NOT provide any sort of mathematically significant increase in your character's overall capability?

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Arkham Creed.7358 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:it's generally accepted and expected from an xpac to radically shake things up. After all it's supposed to be a "whole new game" as you said. It's not the same with an isolated p2w feature meant to nickel and dime.

Really the only difference between an expansion and living story is "act now and get this for just four easy payments of $9.99!"

That's objectively false. There is a considerable difference in scope between the two. The amount of brand new assets that came into the game with HoT (meshes, textures, sounds, music, VA) is larger than the sum of LS3 and 4 for example. And that's just one aspect. Another would be the amount of major game-changing features introduced with expansions vs LS. It's not even close.

@Arkham Creed.7358 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:Devs release new specs.

Some of these specs result in broken builds that are blatantly overpowered compared to previous builds. They become meta, everyone is using them and they are required in groups.

Using them allows one to get in groups, perform and complete both PvP and PvE content with more ease. AKA helps one win at this game.

Said specs are up for sale. One needs to pay to obtain them.

But it's not P2W!!!

....Seems legit. I mean it's in bold for emphasis so it has to be....

Would you consider it pay-to-win if the new elite specs objectively DO NOT provide any sort of mathematically significant increase in your character's overall capability?

If that was the case and they were true side-grades, no it wouldn't be p2w. But that hasn't been the case so far.

Even if one new spec is better at a certain type of content than an existing one, the bundle becomes p2w by definition. And while I think the initial powercreep from base to elite was intentional, I don't think that's the case anymore. It seems the specs are becoming too many and too complex to balance properly in all modes, so I don't trust them to make true side-grades even if they intend to do so.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:They would need to have two different forms of which these can be acquired, either Individually or packed together. I assume the pack would cost 30$ and the single spec purchases would be like maybe 5$ or something akin to that. I don't see this as a big deal either as some people don't want them all and people like me do want them all so I Can dink with them and see what I enjoy; So make it so we can pick and choose OR we have the ability to just do a one stop shop. It can't be more expensive than the expansions of the past, and I doubt it would be something people would buy at 60$+ because thats just absurd (Unless it comes with spec armor, and a bunch of transmog as well which i HIGHLY doubt it will.)

That being said E-specs help the game not become stale because it offers new gameplay and cool cosmetics in the form of skill animations, and feel. Without them burn out will mount and everything will be floundering much like the Pre-HoT living world. Which I left early in because I grew tired of the classes at that point; And the gameplay they offered E-specs brought me back and have held me pretty rock steady since. I don't know how I would feel if they just never did another set of E-specs Id feel like Id have nothing to really progress and learn. (Couldn't care less about "Hardcore pve" if there is even such a thing.) It would also help in WvW and PvP especially if the elites were built to contend and even counter the current E-specs and crush the meta as we know it.

1. The specs need to be built to smash the other e-specs, and counter what they offer to make them viable. (The next necromancer spec needs to counter both scourge and reaper. for example.)
2. They need to be unique and not feel samey, Im voting for darker themes and maybe realms of which guild wars has yet to tred.
3. They need feel different from the current specs and core, without de-valuing them while also shaking up the meta (A daunting task.)
4. They need to offer new play-styles than currently available.
5. they need to be viable, valuable and fun in ALL game-modes and not be the "Raid spec" or the "PvP spec" they need to be an aspect of the class and its individuality and uniqueness and be something usable and viable 100% of the time wherever it goes. (This needs to be addressed for other specs as well that we currently have.)

30$, the price of the last expansion, for just specs. Seems fair! If you wanna go the pw2 route, better go all out I guess...

On one hand I kinda want this to happen. Stories of dev hubris being punished are always entertaining. In addition, seeing the flimsy argument against any kind of criticism towards the gem store being destroyed could also be amusing. "It's just cosmetic/convenience, not pw2, so stop whining." Well not anymore!

On the other hand, I still consider this to be a good MMOrpg with potential to grow despite its age. Having its devs shooting themselves on the foot would be a shame. Especially for a game that used to be the gold standard (highest rated MMOrpg in many publications/sites at launch).

You sound like you're a bit entitled mate, If they don't release E-specs people will leave. If they do people will be upset; I Feel like people being upset but getting over it is fine. And let me be clear you didn't read the post at all I said in there that people can pay individually for specs, its not pay to win as core can compete and often beat E-specs. You either don't play the game at all or are trolling because we have seen core specs and core classes become very powerful over the previous reworks I mean Core necromancer in my opinion vastly over-shadows the elite specs. A core necromancer has so many tools and tricks where as the others get limited as reaper is primarily in melee range during its shroud and its Weapon is not very good in WvW or PvP because of how it functions. (You do not want to try and out box a warrior on reaper, a warrior has so many tools that will clap you its hilarious.)

So no its not pay to win, its paying for what is essentially new classes and new ways to play. Which is fair enough considering the level of work required by E-specs and the amount of time it takes to develop them and their trait-lines + The little cosmetic thing you get with them. ONTOP of the collection after unlocking them, so no I feel 30$ is fair for ALL of them in a pack. But you don't need to spend that much and can buy the ones you like which is a huge boon because there are tons of E-specs I didn't like in PoF that I didn't want and don't play. I still unlocked them just to have them there but they were not and ARE NOT a necessity to play the game, you still need to buy PoF to get into the Saga is that pay to win?

Build templates. IS that pay to win? Because that feature in of itself is far larger and more encompassing than E-specs, Every single game charges for additional content and guild wars doesn't. E-specs are one of the few things im ok with them charging for simply because its always been something we paid for, Thirty dollars for Nine E-specs essentially nine new classes and HUNDREDS of hours of replay-ability is NOT pay to win. You don't like it? Don't buy it. No one is making you but if you think for one moment that this is pay to win, then I have bad news for you.

NO GAME GIVES OUT STUFF LIKE THIS FOR FREE, NOT EVER.

You claim you see potential? Reaching it needs funds, and us buying the E-specs is funding for more of them. If they were to prove not to be lucrative im sure A-net would leave it be and never, ever, ever make a new one again. Hell we might already be there so its either we prepare to pay for them or sit here and not get anything new, because maps and story will NOT continue this games life-span. Living world Seasons 1 + 2 proved this when the community began drizzling out, I was one of them because at this point im well aware that the writing and story will never be better than a Sci-fi movie (The original movies with low budgets.) hell even most of them are better, do you really assume that plus some masteries will sate people? No it will just drive the population further into the ground.

You've never seen pay to win, now Archeage in its original form and BDO is pay to win. Hell even ESO is pay to win at least it is further than this game EVER will be, that game pulls ALL OF THE CONTENT APART. And then it has the audacity to sell it back to you Or you can pay the optional sub and get everything, but the moment you stop you won't be able to play your characters if they happen to be expansion characters (Warden or necromancer.) Or you can spend the exuberant amounts of money to buy it all individually... That is what I constituent as pay to win and this is not that. And Im sure you know that.... so stop beating a dead horse.

Devs release new specs.

Some of these specs result in broken builds that are blatantly overpowered compared to previous builds. They become meta, everyone is using them and they are required in groups.

Using them allows one to get in groups, perform and complete both PvP and PvE content with more ease. AKA helps one win at this game.

Said specs are up for sale. One needs to pay to obtain them.

But it's not P2W!!!

....Seems legit. I mean it's in bold for emphasis so it has to be....

Also might want to try closing without a moral equivalence "not as bad as" type of argument next time.

I feel like you and people like you are 100% the problem with out community, everything is pay to win. New races? Would be pay to win due to fashion wars. Mounts? Those obviously are pay to win. According to you and those like you they shouldn't add anything new once so ever PERIOD because like I said which you glossed over to even get into the saga YOU STILL NEED TO OWN PoF so the expansion is still a must have to even see the new content. So it must be P2W, clearly you're ignorant to how the rest of the market is and how other games work and won't hear it because IF YOU SCREAM THE LOUDEST NO ONE CAN DISAGREE RIGHT!?!?

That said have a good day, and best of luck finding a game that is exactly what you're looking for. Clearly this game is not that for you, and no matter what they do you will never be satisfied or happy because everything by your logic is pay to win. So if that is the case why bother staying?

Let me add there will never be another expansion, at least not as it stands now. A-net is standing against them and don't want them, they want living world so if you stick to only with expansions well then~ No new anything for your class will come. Just saying

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:They would need to have two different forms of which these can be acquired, either Individually or packed together. I assume the pack would cost 30$ and the single spec purchases would be like maybe 5$ or something akin to that. I don't see this as a big deal either as some people don't want them all and people like me do want them all so I Can dink with them and see what I enjoy; So make it so we can pick and choose OR we have the ability to just do a one stop shop. It can't be more expensive than the expansions of the past, and I doubt it would be something people would buy at 60$+ because thats just absurd (Unless it comes with spec armor, and a bunch of transmog as well which i HIGHLY doubt it will.)

That being said E-specs help the game not become stale because it offers new gameplay and cool cosmetics in the form of skill animations, and feel. Without them burn out will mount and everything will be floundering much like the Pre-HoT living world. Which I left early in because I grew tired of the classes at that point; And the gameplay they offered E-specs brought me back and have held me pretty rock steady since. I don't know how I would feel if they just never did another set of E-specs Id feel like Id have nothing to really progress and learn. (Couldn't care less about "Hardcore pve" if there is even such a thing.) It would also help in WvW and PvP especially if the elites were built to contend and even counter the current E-specs and crush the meta as we know it.

1. The specs need to be built to smash the other e-specs, and counter what they offer to make them viable. (The next necromancer spec needs to counter both scourge and reaper. for example.)
2. They need to be unique and not feel samey, Im voting for darker themes and maybe realms of which guild wars has yet to tred.
3. They need feel different from the current specs and core, without de-valuing them while also shaking up the meta (A daunting task.)
4. They need to offer new play-styles than currently available.
5. they need to be viable, valuable and fun in ALL game-modes and not be the "Raid spec" or the "PvP spec" they need to be an aspect of the class and its individuality and uniqueness and be something usable and viable 100% of the time wherever it goes. (This needs to be addressed for other specs as well that we currently have.)

30$, the price of the last expansion, for just specs. Seems fair! If you wanna go the pw2 route, better go all out I guess...

On one hand I kinda want this to happen. Stories of dev hubris being punished are always entertaining. In addition, seeing the flimsy argument against any kind of criticism towards the gem store being destroyed could also be amusing. "It's just cosmetic/convenience, not pw2, so stop whining." Well not anymore!

On the other hand, I still consider this to be a good MMOrpg with potential to grow despite its age. Having its devs shooting themselves on the foot would be a shame. Especially for a game that used to be the gold standard (highest rated MMOrpg in many publications/sites at launch).

You sound like you're a bit entitled mate, If they don't release E-specs people will leave. If they do people will be upset; I Feel like people being upset but getting over it is fine. And let me be clear you didn't read the post at all I said in there that people can pay individually for specs, its not pay to win as core can compete and often beat E-specs. You either don't play the game at all or are trolling because we have seen core specs and core classes become very powerful over the previous reworks I mean Core necromancer in my opinion vastly over-shadows the elite specs. A core necromancer has so many tools and tricks where as the others get limited as reaper is primarily in melee range during its shroud and its Weapon is not very good in WvW or PvP because of how it functions. (You do not want to try and out box a warrior on reaper, a warrior has so many tools that will clap you its hilarious.)

So no its not pay to win, its paying for what is essentially new classes and new ways to play. Which is fair enough considering the level of work required by E-specs and the amount of time it takes to develop them and their trait-lines + The little cosmetic thing you get with them. ONTOP of the collection after unlocking them, so no I feel 30$ is fair for ALL of them in a pack. But you don't need to spend that much and can buy the ones you like which is a huge boon because there are tons of E-specs I didn't like in PoF that I didn't want and don't play. I still unlocked them just to have them there but they were not and ARE NOT a necessity to play the game, you still need to buy PoF to get into the Saga is that pay to win?

Build templates. IS that pay to win? Because that feature in of itself is far larger and more encompassing than E-specs, Every single game charges for additional content and guild wars doesn't. E-specs are one of the few things im ok with them charging for simply because its always been something we paid for, Thirty dollars for Nine E-specs essentially nine new classes and HUNDREDS of hours of replay-ability is NOT pay to win. You don't like it? Don't buy it. No one is making you but if you think for one moment that this is pay to win, then I have bad news for you.

NO GAME GIVES OUT STUFF LIKE THIS FOR FREE, NOT EVER.

You claim you see potential? Reaching it needs funds, and us buying the E-specs is funding for more of them. If they were to prove not to be lucrative im sure A-net would leave it be and never, ever, ever make a new one again. Hell we might already be there so its either we prepare to pay for them or sit here and not get anything new, because maps and story will NOT continue this games life-span. Living world Seasons 1 + 2 proved this when the community began drizzling out, I was one of them because at this point im well aware that the writing and story will never be better than a Sci-fi movie (The original movies with low budgets.) hell even most of them are better, do you really assume that plus some masteries will sate people? No it will just drive the population further into the ground.

You've never seen pay to win, now Archeage in its original form and BDO is pay to win. Hell even ESO is pay to win at least it is further than this game EVER will be, that game pulls ALL OF THE CONTENT APART. And then it has the audacity to sell it back to you Or you can pay the optional sub and get everything, but the moment you stop you won't be able to play your characters if they happen to be expansion characters (Warden or necromancer.) Or you can spend the exuberant amounts of money to buy it all individually... That is what I constituent as pay to win and this is not that. And Im sure you know that.... so stop beating a dead horse.

Devs release new specs.

Some of these specs result in broken builds that are blatantly overpowered compared to previous builds. They become meta, everyone is using them and they are required in groups.

Using them allows one to get in groups, perform and complete both PvP and PvE content with more ease. AKA helps one win at this game.

Said specs are up for sale. One needs to pay to obtain them.

But it's not P2W!!!

....Seems legit. I mean it's in bold for emphasis so it has to be....

Also might want to try closing without a moral equivalence "not as bad as" type of argument next time.

I feel like you and people like you are 100% the problem with out community, everything is pay to win. New races? Would be pay to win due to fashion wars. Mounts? Those obviously are pay to win. According to you and those like you they shouldn't add anything new once so ever PERIOD because like I said which you glossed over to even get into the saga YOU STILL NEED TO OWN PoF so the expansion is still a must have to even see the new content. So it must be P2W, clearly you're ignorant to how the rest of the market is and how other games work and won't hear it because IF YOU SCREAM THE LOUDEST NO ONE CAN DISAGREE RIGHT!?!?

That said have a good day, and best of luck finding a game that is exactly what you're looking for. Clearly this game is not that for you, and no matter what they do you will never be satisfied or happy because everything by your logic is pay to win. So if that is the case why bother staying?

Let me add there will never be another expansion, at least not as it stands now. A-net is standing against them and don't want them, they want living world so if you stick to only with expansions well then~ No new anything for your class will come. Just saying

The main reason I'm still playing this game, instead of something else from the toxic cesspool that is the MMO market, is that it still hasn't crossed the very lines you are suggesting it should.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:They would need to have two different forms of which these can be acquired, either Individually or packed together. I assume the pack would cost 30$ and the single spec purchases would be like maybe 5$ or something akin to that. I don't see this as a big deal either as some people don't want them all and people like me do want them all so I Can dink with them and see what I enjoy; So make it so we can pick and choose OR we have the ability to just do a one stop shop. It can't be more expensive than the expansions of the past, and I doubt it would be something people would buy at 60$+ because thats just absurd (Unless it comes with spec armor, and a bunch of transmog as well which i HIGHLY doubt it will.)

That being said E-specs help the game not become stale because it offers new gameplay and cool cosmetics in the form of skill animations, and feel. Without them burn out will mount and everything will be floundering much like the Pre-HoT living world. Which I left early in because I grew tired of the classes at that point; And the gameplay they offered E-specs brought me back and have held me pretty rock steady since. I don't know how I would feel if they just never did another set of E-specs Id feel like Id have nothing to really progress and learn. (Couldn't care less about "Hardcore pve" if there is even such a thing.) It would also help in WvW and PvP especially if the elites were built to contend and even counter the current E-specs and crush the meta as we know it.

1. The specs need to be built to smash the other e-specs, and counter what they offer to make them viable. (The next necromancer spec needs to counter both scourge and reaper. for example.)
2. They need to be unique and not feel samey, Im voting for darker themes and maybe realms of which guild wars has yet to tred.
3. They need feel different from the current specs and core, without de-valuing them while also shaking up the meta (A daunting task.)
4. They need to offer new play-styles than currently available.
5. they need to be viable, valuable and fun in ALL game-modes and not be the "Raid spec" or the "PvP spec" they need to be an aspect of the class and its individuality and uniqueness and be something usable and viable 100% of the time wherever it goes. (This needs to be addressed for other specs as well that we currently have.)

30$, the price of the last expansion, for just specs. Seems fair! If you wanna go the pw2 route, better go all out I guess...

On one hand I kinda want this to happen. Stories of dev hubris being punished are always entertaining. In addition, seeing the flimsy argument against any kind of criticism towards the gem store being destroyed could also be amusing. "It's just cosmetic/convenience, not pw2, so stop whining." Well not anymore!

On the other hand, I still consider this to be a good MMOrpg with potential to grow despite its age. Having its devs shooting themselves on the foot would be a shame. Especially for a game that used to be the gold standard (highest rated MMOrpg in many publications/sites at launch).

You sound like you're a bit entitled mate, If they don't release E-specs people will leave. If they do people will be upset; I Feel like people being upset but getting over it is fine. And let me be clear you didn't read the post at all I said in there that people can pay individually for specs, its not pay to win as core can compete and often beat E-specs. You either don't play the game at all or are trolling because we have seen core specs and core classes become very powerful over the previous reworks I mean Core necromancer in my opinion vastly over-shadows the elite specs. A core necromancer has so many tools and tricks where as the others get limited as reaper is primarily in melee range during its shroud and its Weapon is not very good in WvW or PvP because of how it functions. (You do not want to try and out box a warrior on reaper, a warrior has so many tools that will clap you its hilarious.)

So no its not pay to win, its paying for what is essentially new classes and new ways to play. Which is fair enough considering the level of work required by E-specs and the amount of time it takes to develop them and their trait-lines + The little cosmetic thing you get with them. ONTOP of the collection after unlocking them, so no I feel 30$ is fair for ALL of them in a pack. But you don't need to spend that much and can buy the ones you like which is a huge boon because there are tons of E-specs I didn't like in PoF that I didn't want and don't play. I still unlocked them just to have them there but they were not and ARE NOT a necessity to play the game, you still need to buy PoF to get into the Saga is that pay to win?

Build templates. IS that pay to win? Because that feature in of itself is far larger and more encompassing than E-specs, Every single game charges for additional content and guild wars doesn't. E-specs are one of the few things im ok with them charging for simply because its always been something we paid for, Thirty dollars for Nine E-specs essentially nine new classes and HUNDREDS of hours of replay-ability is NOT pay to win. You don't like it? Don't buy it. No one is making you but if you think for one moment that this is pay to win, then I have bad news for you.

NO GAME GIVES OUT STUFF LIKE THIS FOR FREE, NOT EVER.

You claim you see potential? Reaching it needs funds, and us buying the E-specs is funding for more of them. If they were to prove not to be lucrative im sure A-net would leave it be and never, ever, ever make a new one again. Hell we might already be there so its either we prepare to pay for them or sit here and not get anything new, because maps and story will NOT continue this games life-span. Living world Seasons 1 + 2 proved this when the community began drizzling out, I was one of them because at this point im well aware that the writing and story will never be better than a Sci-fi movie (The original movies with low budgets.) hell even most of them are better, do you really assume that plus some masteries will sate people? No it will just drive the population further into the ground.

You've never seen pay to win, now Archeage in its original form and BDO is pay to win. Hell even ESO is pay to win at least it is further than this game EVER will be, that game pulls ALL OF THE CONTENT APART. And then it has the audacity to sell it back to you Or you can pay the optional sub and get everything, but the moment you stop you won't be able to play your characters if they happen to be expansion characters (Warden or necromancer.) Or you can spend the exuberant amounts of money to buy it all individually... That is what I constituent as pay to win and this is not that. And Im sure you know that.... so stop beating a dead horse.

Devs release new specs.

Some of these specs result in broken builds that are blatantly overpowered compared to previous builds. They become meta, everyone is using them and they are required in groups.

Using them allows one to get in groups, perform and complete both PvP and PvE content with more ease. AKA helps one win at this game.

Said specs are up for sale. One needs to pay to obtain them.

But it's not P2W!!!

....Seems legit. I mean it's in bold for emphasis so it has to be....

Also might want to try closing without a moral equivalence "not as bad as" type of argument next time.

I feel like you and people like you are 100% the problem with out community, everything is pay to win. New races? Would be pay to win due to fashion wars. Mounts? Those obviously are pay to win. According to you and those like you they shouldn't add anything new once so ever PERIOD because like I said which you glossed over to even get into the saga YOU STILL NEED TO OWN PoF so the expansion is still a must have to even see the new content. So it must be P2W, clearly you're ignorant to how the rest of the market is and how other games work and won't hear it because IF YOU SCREAM THE LOUDEST NO ONE CAN DISAGREE RIGHT!?!?

That said have a good day, and best of luck finding a game that is exactly what you're looking for. Clearly this game is not that for you, and no matter what they do you will never be satisfied or happy because everything by your logic is pay to win. So if that is the case why bother staying?

Let me add there will never be another expansion, at least not as it stands now. A-net is standing against them and don't want them, they want living world so if you stick to only with expansions well then~ No new anything for your class will come. Just saying

The main reason I'm still playing this game, instead of something else from the toxic cesspool that is the MMO market, is that it still hasn't crossed the very lines you are suggesting it should.

E-specs are needed to keep the gameplay loop from growing stale, its not suggesting toxicity. This is the only way they will ever do it, if not this way then it will never happen and we will never have anything new added to the classes. They already said they never intend on making new classes, so this is what we are left with and its not me suggesting it believe me I wish it would be free... Im just being realistic. (Build templates are a good example, if E-specs ever happen again they will not come freely. Unless they intend to use the elite specs to drive Template sales.)

[Astralporing.1957]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:E-specs are needed to keep the gameplay loop from growing stale, its not suggesting toxicity. This is the only way they will ever do it, if not this way then it will never happen and we will never have anything new added to the classes.I'd rather take that than have them be sold in gemstore.

They already said they never intend on making new classes, so this is what we are left with and its not me suggesting it believe me I wish it would be free... Im just being realistic. (Build templates are a good example, if E-specs ever happen again they will not come freely. Unless they intend to use the elite specs to drive Template sales.)I'm already very close to quitting this game over template blatant monetization. Add p2w to that, and i'm gone.No, i don't think that saving gw2 is so important that no cost is too great to achieve it. Not if the end result is a game that completely lost most of its original values.

If a certain feature cannot be introduced without crossing some lines we were not supposed to cross, then it should not be introduced. Simple as that.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:E-specs are needed to keep the gameplay loop from growing stale, its not suggesting toxicity. This is the only way they will ever do it, if not this way then it will never happen and we will never have anything new added to the classes.I'd rather take that than have them be sold in gemstore.

They already said they never intend on making new classes, so this is what we are left with and its not me suggesting it believe me I wish it would be free... Im just being realistic. (Build templates are a good example, if E-specs ever happen again they will not come freely. Unless they intend to use the elite specs to drive Template sales.)I'm already very close to quitting this game over template blatant monetization. Add p2w to that, and i'm gone.No, i don't think that saving gw2 is so important that no cost is too great to achieve it. Not if the end result is a game that completely lost most of its original values.

If a certain feature cannot be introduced without crossing some lines we were not supposed to cross, then it should not be introduced. Simple as that.

That line has already been crossed, Templates have crossed that line and if you want to really take a hard look at it so has the saga as a whole. You need PoF to get it so anyone else who hasn't bought in will never be able to go to the maps or access any of the content THIS INCLUDES E-SPECS if they are introduced for free. They won't be and if they are added at all they will be a paid thing so that people who haven't gotten the expansion and aren't going to the saga CAN have them. This is not pay to win, again if you believe this is pay to win then you have never seen pay to win. E-specs would be a potential start but the road has already been crossed, we are already at that thresh-hold.

It doesn't matter what is said by us at this point we are already at that precipice. And I doubt we will ever leave or not go further down the rabbit hole as it seems that is the direction they intend to take. We lost another narrative lead and we've lost a lot of talent and people, people who were working on this game and there has to be a reason why and I believe strongly that it is because of where the game intends to go.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:E-specs are needed to keep the gameplay loop from growing stale, its not suggesting toxicity. This is the only way they will ever do it, if not this way then it will never happen and we will never have anything new added to the classes.I'd rather take that than have them be sold in gemstore.

They already said they never intend on making new classes, so this is what we are left with and its not me suggesting it believe me I wish it would be free... Im just being realistic. (Build templates are a good example, if E-specs ever happen again they will not come freely. Unless they intend to use the elite specs to drive Template sales.)I'm already very close to quitting this game over template blatant monetization. Add p2w to that, and i'm gone.No, i don't think that saving gw2 is so important that no cost is too great to achieve it. Not if the end result is a game that completely lost most of its original values.

If a certain feature cannot be introduced without crossing some lines we were not supposed to cross, then it should not be introduced. Simple as that.

That line has already been crossed, Templates have crossed that line and if you want to really take a hard look at it so has the saga as a whole. You need PoF to get it so anyone else who hasn't bought in will never be able to go to the maps or access any of the content THIS INCLUDES E-SPECS if they are introduced for free. They won't be and if they are added at all they will be a paid thing so that people who haven't gotten the expansion and aren't going to the saga CAN have them. This is not pay to win, again if you believe this is pay to win then you have never seen pay to win. E-specs would be a potential start but the road has already been crossed, we are already at that thresh-hold.If that's true (and i believe you may just be right, as i don't really hold any hope Anet would step back from the path they've started on either), then the game is beyond saving. And probably not

worth

saving anymore.

It doesn't matter what is said by us at this point we are already at that precipice. And I doubt we will ever leave or not go further down the rabbit hole as it seems that is the direction they intend to take. We lost another narrative lead and we've lost a lot of talent and people, people who were working on this game and there has to be a reason why and I believe strongly that it is because of where the game intends to go.Well, i for one already stopped making any purchases, both for cash and gold to gems. If the game will never get better, so be it - i already have a backup plan in motion, so it's not like i have nowhere else to go.For now, i guess i'll keep watching the trainwreck in progress, and when everything finally crashes and burns, i guess i will say "i said so" to all people that are now pretending that everything is completely fine now.

Still, back to the topic at hand: i still think that putting especs as a separate paid purchase (instead of a part of an expac) would be taking a few steps further on the road towards korean freemium model. And even if it may seem unavoidable, and anet seems o be determined to walk that road no matter what we say, we still should keep pointing out that there's a cliff ahead.

[Tails.9372]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:You need PoF to get it so anyone else who hasn't bought in will never be able to go to the maps or access any of the content THIS INCLUDES E-SPECS if they are introduced for free.

If you have to buy PoF then they're by definition not free.

@Thornwolf.9721 said:This is not pay to win, again if you believe this is pay to win then you have never seen pay to win.

P2W simply means that something which gives you a competitive advantage has to be bought with real money. If you have to buy PoF in order to get them then yes, it would be P2W. It's just not as bad as the stuff you see in many asian games where they also throw some RNG mechanics into the mix.

[Linken.6345]

@Tails.9372 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:You need PoF to get it so anyone else who hasn't bought in will never be able to go to the maps or access any of the content THIS INCLUDES E-SPECS if they are introduced for free.

If you have to buy PoF then they're by definition not free.

@Thornwolf.9721 said:This is not pay to win, again if you believe this is pay to win then you have never seen pay to win.

P2W simply means that something which gives you a competitive advantage has to be bought with real money. If you have to buy PoF in order to get them then yes, it would be P2W. It's just not as bad as the stuff you see in many asian games where they also throw some RNG mechanics into the mix.

Buying expansions is not pay to win its pay to advance, game got to keep moving right?Your not just buying the especs its part of a package deal mate, p2w would be items/buffs that make you stronger then what you can get in game.I can see how people say especs are a buff, they were not supposed to be but due to wanting to sell imo they made them stronger.So its pretty close to yes p2w but its a 1 time purchase usualy you have to do repeate purchases in p2w game to stay on top.

[Tails.9372]

@Linken.6345 said:Buying expansions is not pay to win

Sure it's P2W as you get a competitive advantage from it. It's just not a P2W microtransaction which is why no one complains about it.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Tails.9372 said:

@"Linken.6345" said:Buying expansions is not pay to win

Sure it's P2W as you get a competitive advantage from it. It's just not a P2W microtransaction which is why no one complains about it.This.Especs buyable from gemshop

would

be p2w microtransactions however(even if there would be nothing "micro" about them).