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Can we be met halfway on quality of life for Chrono? What playstyle/tradeoff do people want?


Daniel Handler.4816

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@ZDragon.3046 said:What it should have as trade offs.

  • no distortion
  • no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones

What should be returned

  • power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones

done.mirage should have a similar ^ to this also

I personally find chrono so clunky right now, really tried to make it work in pvp.f4 is virtually useless 98% of the time and sometimes just shits on people so hard, its so sad.

also leave mirage be, i want to have at least 1 spec thats not utter garbage in pvp

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:What it should have as trade offs.
  • no distortion
  • no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones

What should be returned
  • power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones

done.mirage should have a similar ^ to this also

I personally find chrono so clunky right now, really tried to make it work in pvp.f4 is virtually useless 98% of the time and sometimes just kitten on people so hard, its so sad.

also leave mirage be, i want to have at least 1 spec thats not utter garbage in pvp

Well i dont think it was really fair from the outside perspective that you could use powerful tool like the f4 to get your initial burst twice without any resource cost. That to me is very clunky and very unfair.

To be honest with you mirage should out right not have distortion either its silly that mirage can chain its evades and various skills + distortion to be invulnerable for literally 4-8 seconds while being able to do full damage un interrupted.

The OP asked to meet in the middle this is my idea of meeting in the middle.Restore instant shatters on f1-f3 but not f4

That was always the biggest complaint everyone made was the shatters im not sure why people are going into the idea of a whole class rework now or looking at various other skills that were never part of the inital argument that made the spec "dead" to people. It was always about the shatters not being instant with 0 resource.

Lets not forget chrono is still pretty heavily used in pve and in raids and still has very strong dps in pve. I most certainly wouldnt say its dead.if you want it to be less clunky fix the main complaint "within reason" which was having the power to shatter with no clones.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:What it should have as trade offs.
  • no distortion
  • no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones

What should be returned
  • power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones

done.mirage should have a similar ^ to this also

I personally find chrono so clunky right now, really tried to make it work in pvp.f4 is virtually useless 98% of the time and sometimes just kitten on people so hard, its so sad.

also leave mirage be, i want to have at least 1 spec thats not utter garbage in pvp

Well i dont think it was really fair from the outside perspective that you could use powerful tool like the f4 to get your initial burst twice without any resource cost. That to me is very clunky and very unfair.

To be honest with you mirage should out right not have distortion either its silly that mirage can chain its evades and various skills + distortion to be invulnerable for literally 4-8 seconds while being able to do full damage un interrupted.

The OP asked to meet in the middle this is my idea of meeting in the middle.Restore instant shatters on f1-f3 but not f4

That was always the biggest complaint everyone made was the shatters im not sure why people are going into the idea of a whole class rework now or looking at various other skills that were never part of the inital argument that made the spec "dead" to people. It was always about the shatters not being instant with 0 resource.

Lets not forget chrono is still pretty heavily used in pve and in raids and still has very strong dps in pve. I most certainly wouldnt say its dead.if you want it to be less clunky fix the main complaint "within reason" which was having the power to shatter with no clones.

f4 is still ass and clunky, people LITERARLY use skill that spawns 2 clones to use it. that preety much shows how bad it is, if you remove disort from mirage you can preety much delete the spec form pvp, but thats what people want, isnt it ?and you dont even get to pressure people in that 4-8s, why? becouse you lose all clones, and as condi, damage ramps up and depends on ambushes so you dont get the damage that way, and as power, damage comes from GS burst that has cooldown, so you throw it once, that thats IT, you dontget to use it more then once in that 4-8s invulnerability.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:What it should have as trade offs.
  • no distortion
  • no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones

What should be returned
  • power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones

done.mirage should have a similar ^ to this also

I personally find chrono so clunky right now, really tried to make it work in pvp.f4 is virtually useless 98% of the time and sometimes just kitten on people so hard, its so sad.

also leave mirage be, i want to have at least 1 spec thats not utter garbage in pvp

Well i dont think it was really fair from the outside perspective that you could use powerful tool like the f4 to get your initial burst twice without any resource cost. That to me is very clunky and very unfair.

To be honest with you mirage should out right not have distortion either its silly that mirage can chain its evades and various skills + distortion to be invulnerable for literally 4-8 seconds while being able to do full damage un interrupted.

The OP asked to meet in the middle this is my idea of meeting in the middle.Restore instant shatters on f1-f3 but not f4

That was always the biggest complaint everyone made was the shatters im not sure why people are going into the idea of a whole class rework now or looking at various other skills that were never part of the inital argument that made the spec "dead" to people. It was always about the shatters not being instant with 0 resource.

Lets not forget chrono is still pretty heavily used in pve and in raids and still has very strong dps in pve. I most certainly wouldnt say its dead.if you want it to be less clunky fix the main complaint "within reason" which was having the power to shatter with no clones.

f4 is still kitten and clunky, people LITERARLY use skill that spawns 2 clones to use it. that preety much shows how bad it is, if you remove disort from mirage you can preety much delete the spec form pvp, but thats what people want, isnt it ?and you dont even get to pressure people in that 4-8s, why? becouse you lose all clones, and as condi, damage ramps up and depends on ambushes so you dont get the damage that way, and as power, damage comes from GS burst that has cooldown, so you throw it once, that thats IT, you dontget to use it more then once in that 4-8s invulnerability.

LOL this is clearly whats called frustration typing you took none of what i said and applied a proper reply to it. You meshed everything and anything into a single response that makes no sense.

People dont want chrono removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

  • anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec (which it did not have)

People dont want mirage removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

  • mirage also lacks a "realistic" trade off and can just be seen as a total upgrade without real loss when going from mesmer to mirage.
  • You can argue the dodge distance though when you put that against power to not be interrupted while evading , evading under cc, and the additional condi pressure along side utilities like drop target..... it really hardly seems like there is one.

Its not secret that mesmer skips balance patches frequently and is usually one of the last to the party when it comes down to getting toned down. It feels more personal probably but thats not really everyone else's fault. If being viable means be unbalanced and superior in a number of ways against the majority of professions then well you should get use to people demanding you not be viable anymore.

I really dont know what else to tell you.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:What it should have as trade offs.
  • no distortion
  • no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones

What should be returned
  • power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones

done.mirage should have a similar ^ to this also

I personally find chrono so clunky right now, really tried to make it work in pvp.f4 is virtually useless 98% of the time and sometimes just kitten on people so hard, its so sad.

also leave mirage be, i want to have at least 1 spec thats not utter garbage in pvp

Well i dont think it was really fair from the outside perspective that you could use powerful tool like the f4 to get your initial burst twice without any resource cost. That to me is very clunky and very unfair.

To be honest with you mirage should out right not have distortion either its silly that mirage can chain its evades and various skills + distortion to be invulnerable for literally 4-8 seconds while being able to do full damage un interrupted.

The OP asked to meet in the middle this is my idea of meeting in the middle.Restore instant shatters on f1-f3 but not f4

That was always the biggest complaint everyone made was the shatters im not sure why people are going into the idea of a whole class rework now or looking at various other skills that were never part of the inital argument that made the spec "dead" to people. It was always about the shatters not being instant with 0 resource.

Lets not forget chrono is still pretty heavily used in pve and in raids and still has very strong dps in pve. I most certainly wouldnt say its dead.if you want it to be less clunky fix the main complaint "within reason" which was having the power to shatter with no clones.

f4 is still kitten and clunky, people LITERARLY use skill that spawns 2 clones to use it. that preety much shows how bad it is, if you remove disort from mirage you can preety much delete the spec form pvp, but thats what people want, isnt it ?and you dont even get to pressure people in that 4-8s, why? becouse you lose all clones, and as condi, damage ramps up and depends on ambushes so you dont get the damage that way, and as power, damage comes from GS burst that has cooldown, so you throw it once, that thats IT, you dontget to use it more then once in that 4-8s invulnerability.

LOL this is clearly whats called frustration typing you took none of what i said and applied a proper reply to it. You meshed everything and anything into a single response that makes no sense.

People dont want chrono removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay
  • anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec (which it did not have)

People dont want mirage removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay
  • mirage also lacks a "realistic" trade off and can just be seen as a total upgrade without real loss when going from mesmer to mirage.
  • You can argue the dodge distance though when you put that against power to not be interrupted while evading , evading under cc, and the additional condi pressure along side utilities like drop target..... it really hardly seems like there is one.

Its not secret that mesmer skips balance patches frequently and is usually one of the last to the party when it comes down to getting toned down. It feels more personal probably but thats not really everyone else's fault. If being viable means be unbalanced and superior in a number of ways against the majority of professions then well you should get use to people demanding you not be viable anymore.

I really dont know what else to tell you.

Ah mesmer hater, havent seen one of those in a while.You said every elite spec has a trade off, ? what? chrono is literarly the only elitespec that has this. most of them have "fake" tradeoffs that get fixed by the traits in the tree itself. Like -vitality on scraper that simply gets barier for dealing damage getting back what he "loses".SPB that loses 1 adrenaline bar but in return he only uses 1 bar for skills always making spaming burst easy, on top of boonrip,sustain, extra evade/block, cc, and immense damage buffs.

and go away with this mesmer never gets nerf bullshit literarly every single patch that I have seen had mesmer nerfs in them, meanwhile warrior/guard/holo are utterly broken in pvp and go untouched. guard overperforming as always too, buffs for them i guess.

guess what, spec shouldnt have a tradeoff -.- , tradeoff for taking elite is that you dont have 1 core tree, I took mirage, I dont get to have domination/illusion/chaos or whatever thats the tradeoff.since you not gonna read what I wrote anyways at the very least give me answear to this

"anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec" -> your words.give me trade off for every single elite spec.start with spellbreaker,firebrand and go from there.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:What it should have as trade offs.
  • no distortion
  • no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones

What should be returned
  • power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones

done.mirage should have a similar ^ to this also

I personally find chrono so clunky right now, really tried to make it work in pvp.f4 is virtually useless 98% of the time and sometimes just kitten on people so hard, its so sad.

also leave mirage be, i want to have at least 1 spec thats not utter garbage in pvp

Well i dont think it was really fair from the outside perspective that you could use powerful tool like the f4 to get your initial burst twice without any resource cost. That to me is very clunky and very unfair.

To be honest with you mirage should out right not have distortion either its silly that mirage can chain its evades and various skills + distortion to be invulnerable for literally 4-8 seconds while being able to do full damage un interrupted.

The OP asked to meet in the middle this is my idea of meeting in the middle.Restore instant shatters on f1-f3 but not f4

That was always the biggest complaint everyone made was the shatters im not sure why people are going into the idea of a whole class rework now or looking at various other skills that were never part of the inital argument that made the spec "dead" to people. It was always about the shatters not being instant with 0 resource.

Lets not forget chrono is still pretty heavily used in pve and in raids and still has very strong dps in pve. I most certainly wouldnt say its dead.if you want it to be less clunky fix the main complaint "within reason" which was having the power to shatter with no clones.

f4 is still kitten and clunky, people LITERARLY use skill that spawns 2 clones to use it. that preety much shows how bad it is, if you remove disort from mirage you can preety much delete the spec form pvp, but thats what people want, isnt it ?and you dont even get to pressure people in that 4-8s, why? becouse you lose all clones, and as condi, damage ramps up and depends on ambushes so you dont get the damage that way, and as power, damage comes from GS burst that has cooldown, so you throw it once, that thats IT, you dontget to use it more then once in that 4-8s invulnerability.

LOL this is clearly whats called frustration typing you took none of what i said and applied a proper reply to it. You meshed everything and anything into a single response that makes no sense.

People dont want chrono removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay
  • anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec (which it did not have)

People dont want mirage removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay
  • mirage also lacks a "realistic" trade off and can just be seen as a total upgrade without real loss when going from mesmer to mirage.
  • You can argue the dodge distance though when you put that against power to not be interrupted while evading , evading under cc, and the additional condi pressure along side utilities like drop target..... it really hardly seems like there is one.

Its not secret that mesmer skips balance patches frequently and is usually one of the last to the party when it comes down to getting toned down. It feels more personal probably but thats not really everyone else's fault. If being viable means be unbalanced and superior in a number of ways against the majority of professions then well you should get use to people demanding you not be viable anymore.

I really dont know what else to tell you.

Ah mesmer hater, havent seen one of those in a while.

This is being passive agressive.

You said every elite spec has a trade off, ? what? chrono is literarly the only elitespec that has this. most of them have "fake" tradeoffs that get fixed by the traits in the tree itself. Like -vitality on scraper that simply gets barier for dealing damage getting back what he "loses".

This is not eve related trade offs deal with the profession mechanic not specificly key traits you thoughts are miss placed here

SPB that loses 1 adrenaline bar but in return he only uses 1 bar for skills always making spaming burst easy, on top of boonrip,sustain, extra evade/block, cc, and immense damage buffs.Here you actually get it right to an extentThis makes a difference when trying to trigger other traits Berserker power, Adrenal heal, Cleansing IRE, that you could generally get max stacks for using all three bars it now limits you to gaining 1 stack at a timeThis is kind of a big deal.

As far as using burst you call it spammy but rally that changes nothing the cooldowns dont change on burst from core to spell breaker.I dont see how boon strip is relevant here

and go away with this mesmer never gets nerf kitten literarly every single patch that I have seen had mesmer nerfs in them, meanwhile warrior/guard/holo are utterly broken in pvp and go untouched. guard overperforming as always too, buffs for them i guess.

Guardian at its core is fineOnly firebrand is over-performing and thats the only point where I will some what agree with you.

Everyone else has had far more nerfs trust me.Most of mesmers nerfs are also often targeted in wrong areas on sometimes what seems to be on purpose. Such as nerfing the power strike damage on a weapon where its power strikes are already weak because its a condition weapon instead of balancing its condition. This is not a nerf when you use that weapon for condition anyways. It sounds like a nerf on paper when it realistically makes no difference.

An example of mesmer being late to balance.Scepter on mesmer got nerfed "its trash now" is what everyone said when confusing images got balanced (Despite people still using it heavily to this day lol)Lets not forget necro secepter was similar in regards to having high power striking damage on a condition weapon which was promptly nerfed loooooong ago. (As i said mesmer is late to the party)

guess what, spec shouldnt have a tradeoff -.- , tradeoff for taking elite is that you dont have 1 core tree, I took mirage, I dont get to have domination/illusion/chaos or whatever thats the tradeoff.

First of all trade offs are never related to the traitlines like that they are related to generally the profession mechanic aka the f1 -f5 buttons.Mesmer f1 -f4 > Chrono pre patch same f1 - f4 + f5 with literally no changesIn other words there is no trade off

As i said before i can agree that the removal of some shatters requiring clones such as the f1 -f3 those should not require you to have clones to use imo (you will prob skip right over this in your reply)

since you not gonna read what I wrote anyways at the very least give me answear to this

alright

"anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec" -> your words.give me trade off for every single elite spec.start with spellbreaker,firebrand and go from there.

Warrior

Spellbreaker - You are locked to lvl 1 burst meaning all of your burst are permanently weaker and you cannot stack burst traits as rapidlyBerserker - You can no longer use burst outside of berserker rage Berserker rage requires you to store 30 points or full adrenaline . All burst in berserker rage are level 1 burst

Guardian

Firebrand - Your instant cast virtues are replaced with tomes that hold powerful skills You no longer have the ability to use weapon skills while using tomes and all skills have cast times (this is a bit over tuned though as i said i agree that firebrand is currently over tuned and can be toned down a good bit.)Dragon Hunter - Your instant cast virtues are replaced with new skills. They are more powerful but do have activation times and depending on the situation less effective than the core virtues. Spear of justice for example is often dodged due to its cast time and obvious tell animation.

Do note as a mesmer player (i assume) who loves the idea of instant cast shatters with 0 clones you should under stand the value of how strong the "F skills" can be when they are able to be used as instant cast.

Necromancer

Reaper - Shroud is now locked to melee range and life force cost is increased lowering the defense of the shroud mechanic while increasing its offensive power in melee only.Scourge - You no longer have a shroud at all and shade skills consume life force directly. If a shade is summoned skills do not work around you.

Ranger

Druid - You pet has decreased stats compared to normal (this one is a bit boring to me.) I would have rather seen them lose the pet all together for more supportive nature / celestial skills on the profession bar.Soul Beast - Like mirage lacks a real trade off imo. I would like to see them locked to 1 pet at any given time which allows them to focus the bond with that pet that they merge with.

Mesmer

Chronomancer - Distortion becomes Continuum split. Your shatters are now unique and require clones to activate (i feel this was too much.) Just the replacement of distortion and making it so that it alone only would require a clone would have been enough.Mirage - You no longer roll when you dodge??? (see how this gose off the "f skill path" unlike everyone else) As far as F skills nothing changes. Aside from not being interrupted and rolling when you dodge its pure gain and no loss. when it comes to the profession mechanic (similar to soul beast)

Revenant

Herald - Ancient Echo is replaced with Facet of Chaos (this was not always the case though) Granted rev was released as a partly unfinished class and has slowly been getting fixed up to standard it still has a long way to go. Still the trade off is there.Renegade - Ancient Eco is replaced with "Citadel Orders" granting new skills

In other words they give up the option for instant bonus effects and energy restoration for new skills that dont produce any energy restoration if anything it simply increases the energy drain for using them.

Elementalist

Tempest - is still more of a free upgrade at the moment but if you are really going to complain about it be my guest. Its trade offs really don't show until after they have already used the benefit which is their overloads being locked out of that element for some time should they switch from it. Unlike the other classes there is no upfront trade off.Weaver - Any time you change attuenments all elements receive a short cooldown period meaning you can no longer rapidly switch between elements. You can no longer attune to a single element without attuning twice.

Engineer

Scrapper - Function Gyro now always replaces your elite tool-belt skill which can no longer be changed based on your elite utility.Holosmith - Photon forge now always replaces your elite tool-belt skill which can no longer be changed based on your elite utility. (holo could have a bit more of a trade off in my personal opinion but still its a change on the f skill bar so its technically correct when it comes to the standard.)

Thief

Daredevil - Steal is replaced with swipe which has half the range of steal but is unblockable. This forces the theif to get closer before initiating steal. 600 range is very short compared to 1200. The unblockable bonus does not matter for most pve content and does not apply to roughly over half the professions in the game its not often specifically saved just to get past a block.Deadeye - Instant Steal is replaced with deadeye's mark which has a cast time. You also can not steal the same common skills that you normally would steal under base thief and daredevil.

Closing

Notice how almost every single profession mechanic when it comes to trade offs are tied to the F skill bar and the skills on it.The only current classes that totally ignore a loss for pure gain right now are Mirage which has literally 0 change from core to the elite and Soul Beast which has all gain. Firebrand does make a trade off but the values are not balanced properly with whats traded for whats which is a fair argument.

I dont hate mesmer as a class but i do hate how its often over looked for proper balance. Its unique (i actually love the idea of chronomancer personally granted it could be better than what it is now) how ever i dont like ignorance and pretending something is fine when there are plenty of arguments that suggest the opposite from a vast number of people.

I dont think you understand trade offs so i have done as you have asked of me and labeled each profession and its elites with trade offs and how they are targeted.Do i think all trade offs are balanced and justified? No i dont, currently i think some of them are too harsh (scourge/ chronomancer) while others are far too light (firebrand / Holo). So i hope you can understand why i said the things I did and that you can possibly speak with less passive aggressive/frustrated tone so that we can have a conversation.

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@ZDragon.3046 first of all, no matter what you nerf and why, but nerf is a nerf.if you take FULL condi attack that deals 20% power, and 80% condi, and nerf power damage of the attack by 50%, it still makes the weapon deal 10% damage. Mesmer gets bad nerfs, time and time again, it constantly chips at EVERY build you would like to make.food for thought, full power chrono deals about 5% of its damage with bleed on crit trait, so if you nerf that one you punish power builds too, what a suprise.

as for tradeoffs, they should be balanced around what you gain.since i also play warrior ill compare spellbreaker to mirage.

Mirage gains ( in pvp )-20% condi duration. ( survi )¬¬5 -10% vigor uptime ( useless )4s reg on dodge. ( survi )ambush for mesmer and clones ( damage )capibility to use axe. ( ?? )using falso oasis ( OP healing skill in my opinion ) ( survi )dodging while CC, or during casting. ( survi )

what spb gets.better burst skill sustain due to 1 adrenalinbarusage, with most abilities being good enought on 1 bar ( arcing, dagger dash ) ( damage,utility,boonremova,healing,damage)full counter -> extra evade/block with 1,5s daze, low cd, 12s. ( survi,damage,cc )7% crit damage, 14 on boonless ( 14 never happens ) (damage)boon remove on CC ( utility )damage on boon removal ( damage )magebane teather ( might,reveal,heal,CC,damage bonus )burst refersh on fullcounter, it plays into 1 bar usage. 45 power/fero per stack. due to this trait you can dagger f1 -> remove boons, fullcounter dagger f1 again.( this gives damage,utility,sustain,mobility )

you have VERY shortsighted way of balancing, it doesnt matter what you get from what. end result is what matters.example is tethers pulsing might is fine, but due to other traits pulsing might heals.extra bursts from spb are fine, but due to other traints it also heals and removes boons. END RESULT is what matters.

clear bias has been show in your post, like deardevil ( -600 steal range ) big tradeoff, when i Play thief i dont even notice it.meanwhile you want to remove the only defensive cooldown. and you know whats scary? that I see developers actually going along with it.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:People dont want chrono removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

Not wrong.

  • anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec (which it did not have)

    People dont want mirage removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

Also not wrong.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:Ah mesmer hater, havent seen one of those in a while.You said every elite spec has a trade off, ? what? chrono is literarly the only elitespec that has this. most of them have "fake" tradeoffs that get fixed by the traits in the tree itself. Like -vitality on scraper that simply gets barier for dealing damage getting back what he "loses"

-vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake?-Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake?-Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst.-Daredevil cant 1200 range steal you anymore, which means they have to be closer to you constantly to do damage. Why is that fake?-Druid loses pet damage for its healing factor. Why is that fake?-Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake?

Most of the other classes so far have been given clear balances so there are detriments to playing them. Chrono is not the only class suffering this. Chronomancer and Mirage are close to last to the party regarding this tradeoff approach. You can argue that the tradeoff is too much for Chrono if you want; that is up for debate, but if anything Mesmer and its derivatives have escaped any kind of meaningful balancing that affects their rotational dominance for a very long time.

and go away with this mesmer never gets nerf kitten literarly every single patch that I have seen had mesmer nerfs in them, meanwhile warrior/guard/holo are utterly broken in pvp and go untouched. guard overperforming as always too, buffs for them i guess.

Firebrand is overperforming. So is condi mirage. So is holosmith. So is spellbreaker, especially with the new tactics rework. Those are problems that need to be fixed. That doesnt mean chronomancer, or mesmer in general, for that matter, should escape the same kind of balancing mindset.

guess what, spec shouldnt have a tradeoff -.- , tradeoff for taking elite is that you dont have 1 core tree, I took mirage, I dont get to have domination/illusion/chaos or whatever thats the tradeoff.

Every profession has already argued this before, and yet when this was piloted we saw soulbeasts, berserkers, scrappers, firebrands, etc overperforming without that "necessary" third traitline. This arguing point isnt real.

since you not gonna read what I wrote anyways at the very least give me answear to thisstart with spellbreaker,firebrand and go from there.

Again, Mesmer is late to the party concerning nerfs. Ever since Mirage has been implemented into the game, the condition oriented version of it has been absolutely nightmarish for anything that is not able to stealth or churn out perpetual cleansing (never minding the fact that, while this was happening, mirage mains were trying to call for nerfs to cleanse and consume plasma, the only things that were not being steamrolled by them.)

I understand your frustration with chronomancer, but mesmer mains aren't the only classes suffering, and implying that you are is shortsighted, because Chronobunker was omegabusted just this year and doing so much it was causing video culling issues on its own, Condi Mirage remains omegabusted, and as was shown above in the youtube video core Mesmer still can perform very well in pvp.

Some of these classes have core professions that cant even step into PVP without being deleted.And again, there sure are other problems in PVP. Condi mirage is the most oppressive of those problems right now though.

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@Leonidrex.5649You are going off topic the main topic is trade offsThe topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones

Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.

Im not going to argue specific nerfs or skills between classes with you (most of your points in that recent post are invalid anyways) because several other professions contain similar skills or skills that provide similar value and because thats not the topic of this post

We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:People dont want chrono removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

Not wrong.
  • anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec (which it did not have)

    People dont want mirage removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

Also not wrong.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:Ah mesmer hater, havent seen one of those in a while.You said every elite spec has a trade off, ? what? chrono is literarly the only elitespec that has this. most of them have "fake" tradeoffs that get fixed by the traits in the tree itself. Like -vitality on scraper that simply gets barier for dealing damage getting back what he "loses"

-vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake?-Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake?-Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst.-Daredevil cant 1200 range steal you anymore, which means they have to be closer to you constantly to do damage. Why is that fake?-Druid loses pet damage for its healing factor. Why is that fake?-Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake?

Most of the other classes so far have been given clear balances so there are detriments to playing them. Chrono is not the only class suffering this. Chronomancer and Mirage are close to last to the party regarding this tradeoff approach. You can argue that the tradeoff is too much for Chrono if you want; that is up for debate, but if anything Mesmer and its derivatives have escaped any kind of meaningful balancing that affects their rotational dominance for a very long time.

and go away with this mesmer never gets nerf kitten literarly every single patch that I have seen had mesmer nerfs in them, meanwhile warrior/guard/holo are utterly broken in pvp and go untouched. guard overperforming as always too, buffs for them i guess.

Firebrand is overperforming. So is condi mirage. So is spellbreaker, especially with the new tactics rework. Those are problems that need to be fixed.

guess what, spec shouldnt have a tradeoff -.- , tradeoff for taking elite is that you dont have 1 core tree, I took mirage, I dont get to have domination/illusion/chaos or whatever thats the tradeoff.

Every profession has already argued this before, and yet when this was piloted we saw soulbeasts, berserkers, scrappers, firebrands, etc overperforming without that "necessary" third traitline. This arguing point isnt real.

since you not gonna read what I wrote anyways at the very least give me answear to thisstart with spellbreaker,firebrand and go from there.

Again, Mesmer is late to the party concerning nerfs. Ever since Mirage has been implemented into the game, the condition oriented version of it has been absolutely nightmarish for anything that is not able to stealth or churn out perpetual cleansing (never minding the fact that, while this was happening, mirage mains were trying to call for nerfs to cleanse and consume plasma, the only things that were not being steamrolled by them.)

I understand your frustration with chronomancer, but mesmer mains aren't the only classes suffering, and implying that you are is shortsighted, because Chronobunker was omegabusted just this year and doing so much it was causing video culling issues on its own, Condi Mirage
remains
omegabusted, and as was shown above in the youtube video core Mesmer still can perform very well in pvp.

Some of these classes have core professions that cant even step into PVP without being deleted.

im not sure if you are trolling or not. its mindboggling actually.allof these "traidoffs" dont remove ANYTHING.the only onse that matter are druids damage reduction on petand chrono losing its most important cooldown.some of the things you wrote.

-Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake? -> becouse reper lands CONSISTANTLY 5-15k dmg hits from long range? while 5k being on the REALLY low end, on TOP of having turbo damage in melee.

-Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake? -> and gains LOW cooldown nuke that conviniently gives 3 bars of adrenaline. and thus compleatly removing the drawback.

-Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst. losing lvl 2 and 3 burs is advantage, to triger burst themself more often to get extra healing and endurance, expecially since arcing slice and dagger jump dont scale with adrinaline level very well.

-vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake? -> this is plain wrong, scraper loses max hp, and in return they gain sustain throught damage.THE ONLY TIME its disadvantage is when you DIE before you generate missing hp throught barrier. meaning you need to be 1shot. people dont play scrapper beccouse holo is stronger.

people on the forum remind me of the ranger I fought not too long ago, had to whack him nonstop for 60s, landing everything throught condiclears and signets, tracking him in stealth with seeking axes, evading his attack. when I kill him, OMG broken yadda yadda.

then next fight, pet hits me twicce, he hits me with worldly impact, and im dead. its fine for his pet to take 60% of my hp when he hided behind wall and then take 40% of my hp with 4s cd ability, but if I hit him 50 times in a row and down him its worong.

most core is just plain bad, and mesmer is no different, the only core i have seen in plat was me ( trolling with 1shot build to test it out )some brave core engi much respect to you dude p2w sorry for focusing you, dont hate me :/ <-- i see him alotand core thief.core warrior.core guard.thats it.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:@Leonidrex.5649You are going off topic the main topic is trade offsThe topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones

Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.

Im not going to argue specific nerfs with you because thats not the topic of this post

We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.

im allergic to bullshit is what i am.I dont see these developers pulling anything acceptable with chrono.as it stands its utterly unplayable in pvp and wvw, i REALLY tried, trust me

what I think ( personally ) and most people wont agree. is that chrono should be scrapped.chronophantasma ruins balance, I really like f5 but its a toxic ability, saw it in pvp where i could compleatly swing 1v2 fight where

at this point returning dry f1,f2,f3 doesnt change how pvp/wvw works. its just a buff for raids. where chrono is good anyways.it makes it stronger in a place it doesnt need to be any stronger, and doesnt change its weakness in a place its weak.the ONLY thing that I can see coming out of this change is some gimmicky 1shot chrono, ( i actually managed to land 24k burst combo with it in pvp ) I actually dont want to see this cancer ever.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

-Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake? -> becouse reper lands CONSISTANTLY 5-15k dmg hits from long range? while 5k being on the REALLY low end, on TOP of having turbo damage in melee.

? Spinal shivers? deaths charge? Grasping darkness? What are you talking about? Spinal doesnt hit you for 5-15k, and deaths charge isnt long range. Grasping darkness is incredibly telegraphed and doesnt hit for that range either.

The turbo damage in melee doesnt really negate the drawback. The necro has to go through a whole lot of effort to get you in melee range to begin with. If you remain there you deserve turbo Reaper 4 tbh.

-Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake? -> and gains LOW cooldown nuke that conviniently gives 3 bars of adrenaline. and thus compleatly removing the drawback.

? Signet of fury? blood reckoning? those arent low cooldown and one of those a heal. why does that remove the drawback?

-Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst. losing lvl 2 and 3 burs is advantage, to triger burst themself more often to get extra healing and endurance, expecially since arcing slice and dagger jump dont scale with adrinaline level very well.

? see below for my response to that.

-vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake? -> this is plain wrong, scraper loses max hp, and in return they gain sustain throught damage.

? That is what I said. You cant play passively as scrapper anymore if you want to live. Its the opposite of, say, condi mirage.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:what spb gets.better burst skill sustain due to 1 adrenalinbarusage, with most abilities being good enought on 1 bar ( arcing, dagger dash ) ( damage,utility,boonremova,healing,damage)you have VERY shortsighted way of balancing, it doesnt matter what you get from what. end result is what matters.

Better burst sustain? The CD didnt change for bursts. They're just forced to use it at level 1 now, with the reduced damage and the reduced impact on their traits. Warriors can burst at level 1 by default. It just usually isnt worth.I dont understand how you can claim someone is shortsighted immediately after suggesting that Spellbreaker burst sustain is somehow better because now they cant charge it higher than level 1 and thus are more compelled to use it at level 1. Nothing got better with that change. The use case just got narrower.

Again, I'm not saying Spellbreaker is in a balanced place right now, and I'm not saying chronomancer isnt underperforming. But I don't understand this series of responses at all. Have you played anything besides mesmer? And, if so, can you elaborate on what long range nuke Reaper has, what low cooldown nuke berserker has, that instantly gives them 3 bars of adrenaline etc?

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:@Leonidrex.5649You are going off topic the main topic is trade offsThe topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones

Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.

Im not going to argue specific nerfs with you because thats not the topic of this post

We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.

im allergic to kitten is what i am.I dont see these developers pulling anything acceptable with chrono.Thats why there needs to be well structured conversation.Devs dont pay attention to the cat comments. My guess would be that they are also allergic to it. ;)

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

-Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake? -> becouse reper lands CONSISTANTLY 5-15k dmg hits from long range? while 5k being on the REALLY low end, on TOP of having turbo damage in melee.

? Spinal shivers?

-Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake? -> and gains LOW cooldown nuke that conviniently gives 3 bars of adrenaline. and thus compleatly removing the drawback.

? Signet of fury? blood reckoning? those arent low cooldown and one of those a heal.

-Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst. losing lvl 2 and 3 burs is advantage, to triger burst themself more often to get extra healing and endurance, expecially since arcing slice and dagger jump dont scale with adrinaline level very well.

? see below for my response to that.

-vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake? -> this is plain wrong, scraper loses max hp, and in return they gain sustain throught damage.

? That is what I said. You cant play passively as scrapper anymore if you want to live.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:what spb gets.better burst skill sustain due to 1 adrenalinbarusage, with most abilities being good enought on 1 bar ( arcing, dagger dash ) ( damage,utility,boonremova,healing,damage)you have VERY shortsighted way of balancing, it doesnt matter what you get from what. end result is what matters.

Better burst sustain? The CD didnt change for bursts. They're just forced to use it at level 1 now, with the reduced damage and the reduced impact on their traits.I dont understand how you can claim someone is shortsighted immediately after suggesting that Spellbreaker burst sustain is somehow better because now they cant charge it higher than level 1 and thus are more compelled to use it at level 1. Nothing got better with that change. The use case just got narrower.

Again, I'm not saying Spellbreaker is in a balanced place right now, and I'm not saying chronomancer isnt underperforming. But I don't understand this series of responses at all. Have you played anything besides mesmer? And, if so, can you elaborate on what long range nuke Reaper has, what low cooldown nuke berserker has, that instantly gives them 3 bars of adrenaline etc?

REAPER -> Ghastly claws 8s cd, hits for 5-10kSpinal shivers 20s cd, hits for 5-8kexecutioners scythe -> record hit i recived was 19,2k, I would say the average is about 10k? against mesmer at least.I am not saying reaper stays at range and booms people, but standing behind wall, peaking for 1/4s to deal 5-10k dmg is a thing they do.

BERSERKERhead butt.

SCRAPPERits not about playing passively, its about the fact that the only time its a tradeoff, is when scraper is 1shot/bursted down from full HP. I bet it doesnt feel good does it ?think about how much hp you lose due to that vitality, and then think how much damage you need to deal to gain it as barrier. and consider how hard/easy it is to do.if you can throw 1 aoe into the bunch of clones and get 5k barrier then its not much of a tradeoff is it ?

SPByou get extra sustain.core warrior uses all bars to use burst skill. spb can sit on 2, use arcing slice -> fullcounter -> gain adrenaline passively from traits -> arcing slice ( recharged from FC ).core cant do that. core doesnt recharge bursts and core doesnt get to have 2 of them on one weapon set. if as SPB you use that trait tht gives adrenaline and resistance, i had games where i legit dager f1 -> FC -> dagger f1 -> shield 4 -> gs f1.burst burst burst, stun, burst.

I have played mesmer ( core, chrono,mirage ) both sustained power/condi/bunkers/1shot of any kind.I have played core warrior/spb/berserker, both anticondi,full berk meme and meta spb.I have played thief ( hybrid and condi ) and some staff/staff monkey trolling builds.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:@Leonidrex.5649You are going off topic the main topic is trade offsThe topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones

Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.

Im not going to argue specific nerfs with you because thats not the topic of this post

We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.

im allergic to kitten is what i am.I dont see these developers pulling anything acceptable with chrono.Thats why there needs to be well structured conversation.Devs dont pay attention to the cat comments. My guess would be that they are also allergic to it. ;)

its literarly their job to read throught our stupid comments, mould it with their ideas and give us something acceptable.so far they gutted chrono, and next patch instead of trying to fix it they just kicked it some more.they even gave us party quickness of shatter -> i wouldnt be suprised if that made some sort of full dps power chrono cancer perma quickness for entire party build that makes firebrand not welcome into raids, so all they did is kept it bad in pvp/wvw and made some changes for raids where its used anyways.wasted developement time.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

-Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake? -> becouse reper
lands CONSISTANTLY 5-15k dmg hits from long range?
while 5k being on the REALLY low end, on TOP of having turbo damage in melee.

? Spinal shivers? deaths charge? Grasping darkness? What are you talking about? Spinal doesnt hit you for 5-15k, and deaths charge isnt long range. Grasping darkness is incredibly telegraphed and doesnt hit for that range either.

The turbo damage in melee doesnt really negate the drawback. The necro has to go through a whole lot of effort to get you in melee range to begin with. If you remain there you deserve turbo Reaper 4 tbh.

-Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake? -> and
gains LOW cooldown nuke
that conviniently gives 3 bars of adrenaline. and thus compleatly removing the drawback.

? Signet of fury? blood reckoning? those arent low cooldown and one of those a heal. why does that remove the drawback?

-Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst. losing lvl 2 and 3 burs is advantage, to triger burst themself more often to get extra healing and endurance, expecially since arcing slice and dagger jump dont scale with adrinaline level very well.

? see below for my response to that.

-vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake? -> this is plain wrong, scraper loses max hp, and in return they gain sustain throught damage.

?
That is what I said.
You cant play passively as scrapper anymore if you want to live. Its the opposite of, say, condi mirage.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:what spb gets.
better burst skill sustain due to 1 adrenalinbarusage
, with most abilities being good enought on 1 bar ( arcing, dagger dash ) ( damage,utility,boonremova,healing,damage)you have VERY shortsighted way of balancing, it doesnt matter what you get from what. end result is what matters.

Better burst sustain? The CD didnt change for bursts. They're just forced to use it at level 1 now, with the reduced damage and the reduced impact on their traits.
Warriors can burst at level 1 by default. It just usually isnt worth.
I dont understand how you can claim someone is shortsighted immediately after suggesting that Spellbreaker burst sustain is somehow better because now they cant charge it higher than level 1 and thus are more compelled to use it at level 1. Nothing got better with that change. The use case just got narrower.

Again, I'm not saying Spellbreaker is in a balanced place right now, and I'm not saying chronomancer isnt underperforming. But I don't understand this series of responses at all. Have you played anything besides mesmer? And, if so, can you elaborate on what long range nuke Reaper has, what low cooldown nuke berserker has, that instantly gives them 3 bars of adrenaline etc?

When you argued mirage and soulbeast are pure gain you kinda set the tone of what is fake or not. By that standard Scrapper doesn't have a tradeoff because the benefit replaces its own deficit.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

-Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake? -> becouse reper
lands CONSISTANTLY 5-15k dmg hits from long range?
while 5k being on the REALLY low end, on TOP of having turbo damage in melee.

? Spinal shivers? deaths charge? Grasping darkness? What are you talking about? Spinal doesnt hit you for 5-15k, and deaths charge isnt long range. Grasping darkness is incredibly telegraphed and doesnt hit for that range either.

The turbo damage in melee doesnt really negate the drawback. The necro has to go through a whole lot of effort to get you in melee range to begin with. If you remain there you deserve turbo Reaper 4 tbh.

-Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake? -> and
gains LOW cooldown nuke
that conviniently gives 3 bars of adrenaline. and thus compleatly removing the drawback.

? Signet of fury? blood reckoning? those arent low cooldown and one of those a heal. why does that remove the drawback?

-Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst. losing lvl 2 and 3 burs is advantage, to triger burst themself more often to get extra healing and endurance, expecially since arcing slice and dagger jump dont scale with adrinaline level very well.

? see below for my response to that.

-vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake? -> this is plain wrong, scraper loses max hp, and in return they gain sustain throught damage.

?
That is what I said.
You cant play passively as scrapper anymore if you want to live. Its the opposite of, say, condi mirage.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:what spb gets.
better burst skill sustain due to 1 adrenalinbarusage
, with most abilities being good enought on 1 bar ( arcing, dagger dash ) ( damage,utility,boonremova,healing,damage)you have VERY shortsighted way of balancing, it doesnt matter what you get from what. end result is what matters.

Better burst sustain? The CD didnt change for bursts. They're just forced to use it at level 1 now, with the reduced damage and the reduced impact on their traits.
Warriors can burst at level 1 by default. It just usually isnt worth.
I dont understand how you can claim someone is shortsighted immediately after suggesting that Spellbreaker burst sustain is somehow better because now they cant charge it higher than level 1 and thus are more compelled to use it at level 1. Nothing got better with that change. The use case just got narrower.

Again, I'm not saying Spellbreaker is in a balanced place right now, and I'm not saying chronomancer isnt underperforming. But I don't understand this series of responses at all. Have you played anything besides mesmer? And, if so, can you elaborate on what long range nuke Reaper has, what low cooldown nuke berserker has, that instantly gives them 3 bars of adrenaline etc?

When you argued mirage and soulbeast are pure gain you kinda set the tone of what is fake or not. By that standard Scrapper doesn't have a tradeoff because the benefit replaces its own deficit.

I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

-Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake? -> becouse reper
lands CONSISTANTLY 5-15k dmg hits from long range?
while 5k being on the REALLY low end, on TOP of having turbo damage in melee.

? Spinal shivers? deaths charge? Grasping darkness? What are you talking about? Spinal doesnt hit you for 5-15k, and deaths charge isnt long range. Grasping darkness is incredibly telegraphed and doesnt hit for that range either.

The turbo damage in melee doesnt really negate the drawback. The necro has to go through a whole lot of effort to get you in melee range to begin with. If you remain there you deserve turbo Reaper 4 tbh.

-Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake? -> and
gains LOW cooldown nuke
that conviniently gives 3 bars of adrenaline. and thus compleatly removing the drawback.

? Signet of fury? blood reckoning? those arent low cooldown and one of those a heal. why does that remove the drawback?

-Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst. losing lvl 2 and 3 burs is advantage, to triger burst themself more often to get extra healing and endurance, expecially since arcing slice and dagger jump dont scale with adrinaline level very well.

? see below for my response to that.

-vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake? -> this is plain wrong, scraper loses max hp, and in return they gain sustain throught damage.

?
That is what I said.
You cant play passively as scrapper anymore if you want to live. Its the opposite of, say, condi mirage.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:what spb gets.
better burst skill sustain due to 1 adrenalinbarusage
, with most abilities being good enought on 1 bar ( arcing, dagger dash ) ( damage,utility,boonremova,healing,damage)you have VERY shortsighted way of balancing, it doesnt matter what you get from what. end result is what matters.

Better burst sustain? The CD didnt change for bursts. They're just forced to use it at level 1 now, with the reduced damage and the reduced impact on their traits.
Warriors can burst at level 1 by default. It just usually isnt worth.
I dont understand how you can claim someone is shortsighted immediately after suggesting that Spellbreaker burst sustain is somehow better because now they cant charge it higher than level 1 and thus are more compelled to use it at level 1. Nothing got better with that change. The use case just got narrower.

Again, I'm not saying Spellbreaker is in a balanced place right now, and I'm not saying chronomancer isnt underperforming. But I don't understand this series of responses at all. Have you played anything besides mesmer? And, if so, can you elaborate on what long range nuke Reaper has, what low cooldown nuke berserker has, that instantly gives them 3 bars of adrenaline etc?

When you argued mirage and soulbeast are pure gain you kinda set the tone of what is fake or not. By that standard Scrapper doesn't have a tradeoff because the benefit replaces its own deficit.

I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:When you argued mirage and soulbeast are pure gain you kinda set the tone of what is fake or not. By that standard Scrapper doesn't have a tradeoff because the benefit replaces its own deficit.

And its toolbelt being replaced by function gyro. Let's not forget that.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:REAPER -> Ghastly claws 8s cd, hits for 5-10kSpinal shivers 20s cd, hits for 5-8kexecutioners scythe -> record hit i recived was 19,2k, I would say the average is about 10k? against mesmer at least.I am not saying reaper stays at range and booms people, but standing behind wall, peaking for 1/4s to deal 5-10k dmg is a thing they do.

I will note your last comment. I'm not going to argue about the damage factors of Ghastly, spinal and Exec Scythe because those skills have incredibly long cast times and telegraphs. They can be easily interrupted or avoided and the fact that they do high damage if they complete over their 1-1.25 second cast times doesnt offset:

The reaper is close range.The reaper is vulnerable to cc.

The reaper standing behind a wall to make sure those attacks hit are cleverly compensating for that drawback by using the terrain, which is skillful. I have no issue with that.

BERSERKERhead butt.

Same for this. 400 range and high visibility.I'm not going to argue about the damage factors of Headbutt because the skill has an incredibly long cast time and telegraph. It can be easily interrupted or avoided and the fact that it does high damage if it connects doesnt offset the added fragility in berserk mode or the fact that its bursts still count as level 1 internally.And if it doesnt connect the warrior has no adrenaline and wont have an elite for 25 seconds.

SCRAPPERits not about playing passively, its about the fact that the only time its a tradeoff, is when scraper is 1shot/bursted down from full HP. I bet it doesnt feel good does it ?think about how much hp you lose due to that vitality, and then think how much damage you need to deal to gain it as barrier. and consider how hard/easy it is to do.if you can throw 1 aoe into the bunch of clones and get 5k barrier then its not much of a tradeoff is it ?

If the barrier gain or vitality deficit needs to be adjusted, fine; but I am not agreeing that the situation of throwing an AOE into a bunch of clones and getting 5k barrier immediately is not its gain surpassing its deficit. That is a unique interaction with mesmer and classes that spawn lots of adds.

Also as above keep in mind their toolbelt is also hard replaced.

SPByou get extra sustain.core warrior uses all bars to use burst skill. spb can sit on 2, use arcing slice -> fullcounter -> gain adrenaline passively from traits -> arcing slice ( recharged from FC ).core cant do that. core doesnt recharge bursts and core doesnt get to have 2 of them on one weapon set. if as SPB you use that trait tht gives adrenaline and resistance, i had games where i legit dager f1 -> FC -> dagger f1 -> shield 4 -> gs f1.burst burst burst, stun, burst.

You have to hit full counter for that chain to work.

There are drawbacks to each of those classes that lead them to underperform in specific avenues in exchange for performing well if specific, high telegraphed skills hit or certain conditions are met. Chrono isn't the only one being held to that standard. Whether you want to argue whether that is more, or less than it should is up to you.

Some classes are still overperforming, though, especially Condition Mirage, since in exchange for a different dodge animation they get more damage output, less damage vulnerability, The ability to evade whenever they want as long as they have endurance, and target shuffling on top of their access to their core utilities. Before the patch that made mirage cloak last as long as a regular dodge animation, mirage cloak actually lasted longer. It was even more of a direct upgrade than it is now.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.

I am in agreement with this. I would go so far as to say that altering playstyle means, Ideally, that the user is benefited in exchange for exposing exploitable weaknesses and managing to cover them with their own play, rather than traits or synergies covering that weakness on their own.

There are a few classes that need to be held to that razor yet. some more than once. I am in no way claiming that spellbreaker, firebrand, holo are as yet balanced. I am just concerned when classes that should be balanced -do- get balanced, and people suddenly appear to think that only their main is prey to the error of the balancing team ad infinitum.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:When you argued mirage and soulbeast are pure gain you kinda set the tone of what is fake or not. By that standard Scrapper doesn't have a tradeoff because the benefit replaces its own deficit.

And its toolbelt being replaced by function gyro. Let's not forget that.

And they gain function gyro. It's not like Holo vs Firebrand where the former's kit is not only replacing a skill, it is also restricting access to the other F skills.

...Some classes are still overperforming, though, especially Condition Mirage, since in exchange for a different dodge animation they get more damage output, less damage vulnerability, The ability to evade whenever they want as long as they have endurance, and target shuffling on top of their access to their core utilities.

Compare the effect of chill on a mirage to chrono or core and you'll find its not just a different dodge animation. Your argument is no different than people who want Daredevil to only have two bars of endurance. I don't think you are considering different game modes. And that is what got us in this mess to begin with.

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@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?

We cant really argue the loss of one traitline or another because this is something that all elite specs are subject to should to take any one of them on any profession.Thats the standard that makes the trait portion balanced ever profession and elite spec is held to the rule of only 2 core lines should you take an elite one.

This leaves play styles which comes down to personal taste and should not be a factor in this and the profession mechanic itself which has already been listed by factual evidence as of the game to this day proving that mirage for example has no loss there compared to its core variation that is base mesmer.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.

By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?

Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.

I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.

By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'

Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.

  • For tempest, mirage and soulbeast where the benefit and drawback happen simultaneously there is no required change to f skills. They can play identically to core if they wish.
  • For daredevil and druid where something is always in addition to core they have their core mechanic (steal and pet) reduced while retaining its functionally (shadowstep and AI)
  • For holosmith the drawback is dependent on how much you abuse the fact you gained 5 skills for 1 while retaining all your other f skills
  • For scrapper, who got to keep the majority of their skills at all times, the drawback is changing how they approach survivability.

Chrono got the scrapper treatment. Swapping only one f skill wasn't enough. Both also had more defensive abilities, and the latter had significantly higher power damage than core. So instead of losing vitality and gaining conditional barrier, chrono lost self-shatter/power damage and kept conditional reduced cooldown/high power traits. Survivability/power damage was replaced with survivability/power damage.

The problem is in the execution. A scrapper doesn't have to constantly use its f-skills, or specific utilities/traits. It simply attacks through whatever method it sees fit and reduces its tradeoff.

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Some of those being a trade off are a huge stretch.Still you is chrono the only one with triple trade off? You lose IP, you lose distortion, your shatters become garbage.

As for mirage, you no longer dodge, your dodge movement even forwards is less than a normal dodge. Your auto-attack is replaced by a longer, easier to interrupt, trash skill that is solely carried by IH.All your traitline is trash except for IH.

See I can invent trade-offs too!

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