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EU Ranked PvP on Core Mantra Mesmer!


shadowpass.4236

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@Dantheman.3589 said:Did she ever get her top 30 title?

I have his account on fl and he never reached a rating near to Top 100 EU at the end of the season (and that while the Top 100 minimum rating was very low this season, not even Plat 3 anymore :scream: ). Mid season lb place with half the ppl not on the lb doesn't mean anything though. But even if he would have had Top 3 with it in the end, it wouldn't prove anything about the build he is playing. Not only because ranking has so many influences much bigger than the played build (also we would need to delete all classes manage to get Top 10/ 25 then and this is like every class in the game and most of them with even less effort than a Powermesmer) but also because of the reasons i mentioned several times: He wanted to prove that the oneshot combo incl. Mantras is op but even with Chaosline what makes hit this combo like 300 times easier because less predictable out of long stealth he still couldn't oneshot a single decent player with any cds left when he arrived.Also hit this combo and oneshotting has nothing to do with Mantras because on Core Mesmer the dmg is high enough, that you don't even need Mantra of Pain for it. Mantra of Distraction (and other Mantras) has absolutely zero relation to the oneshot anyway.

With other words: Even with a high rating in the end he never had a chance to prove his point, because the way of proving was wrong and because his point is wrong.

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@apharma.3741 said:The rating last I saw was 1593 so not on the leader board at all if you put any stock in that.

@bravan.3876 The might stacks from mantra of pain cycling is very relevant if you're running might duration as you can get 12 stacks all the time and 24 some of the time if you time it right.

True but that is not the point, the point is that Coremesmer has enough dmg to onehsot specific builds also without Mantra of Pain. As mentioned only Mantra Mirage rly needs Mantra of Pain for the same result. Still the gs burst oneshot combo is predictable and counterable very easy with and without Mantras, only Chaosline was relevant for having a better chance to get a oneshot also on decent player, what he still didn't achieve (even though i don't even doubt he will get it or at least rly good Mesmer will get it here and there. I got oneshot by Core Choasline Mesmers and i never got oneshot by a Mantra Mirage a single time, no matter how good that Mesmer was). Still i never disagreed to Mantra of Pain being stupid but he complains about all Mantras not only this one.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:Highest rating this season was 1662 or maybe a match or two higher idk.

My teams for the past 3 days of quing literally could not get above 50/100/200 points. Many of them AFK'd at the start I literally cannot do anything else in those scenarios.

I lost for 3 days straight on both EU and NA on multiple classes with breaks in between losses over the course of several days. Hence why I made that thread about how utterly kitten up the matchmaking was.

I really do not give a kitten about this game anymore.

@"bravan.3876" you literally never have any valid arguments and just repeated the whole "you're wrong I'm right" that numerous people have pointed out in the past@"apharma.3741" you're also annoying lol this build clearly works at high ratings... when I'm quing mid day in the top 80 or above I'm getting in the matches with the rest of the high rated people you just have a hard on for defending mesmer and everyone knows that

inb4 im biased cause ranger main, ranger got kitten on last balance patch so i dont want to play that class (or this game anymore) and sic em and boonbeast builds are still stupid

I'm done with this game lol AAU here I come

My criticisms centred around your methodology being flawed in that you couldn't correlate gains and losses due to constant swapping of class with a low data pool.

Other criticisms were how you misrepresented facts to make aspects look stronger than they were, in a similar way to heat therapy in the Holo thread, while also leaving out crucial details.

Your little experiment doesn't support the idea that this build in this meta at this time is "one of the strongest carry builds in ranked asides from tools holo."

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@apharma.3741 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Highest rating this season was 1662 or maybe a match or two higher idk.

My teams for the past 3 days of quing literally could not get above 50/100/200 points. Many of them AFK'd at the start I literally cannot do anything else in those scenarios.

I lost for 3 days straight on both EU and NA on multiple classes with breaks in between losses over the course of several days. Hence why I made that thread about how utterly kitten up the matchmaking was.

I really do not give a kitten about this game anymore.

@"bravan.3876" you literally never have any valid arguments and just repeated the whole "you're wrong I'm right" that numerous people have pointed out in the past@apharma.3741 you're also annoying lol this build clearly works at high ratings... when I'm quing mid day in the top 80 or above I'm getting in the matches with the rest of the high rated people you just have a hard on for defending mesmer and everyone knows that

inb4 im biased cause ranger main, ranger got kitten on last balance patch so i dont want to play that class (or this game anymore) and sic em and boonbeast builds are still stupid

I'm done with this game lol AAU here I come

My criticisms centred around your methodology being flawed in that you couldn't correlate gains and losses due to constant swapping of class with a low data pool.

Other criticisms were how you misrepresented facts to make aspects look stronger than they were, in a similar way to heat therapy in the Holo thread, while also leaving out crucial details.

Your little experiment doesn't support the idea that this build in this meta at this time is "one of the strongest carry builds in ranked asides from tools holo."

Did he just delete his post? Didn't know you can fully delete posts :scream:

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@bravan.3876 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Highest rating this season was 1662 or maybe a match or two higher idk.

My teams for the past 3 days of quing literally could not get above 50/100/200 points. Many of them AFK'd at the start I literally cannot do anything else in those scenarios.

I lost for 3 days straight on both EU and NA on multiple classes with breaks in between losses over the course of several days. Hence why I made that thread about how utterly kitten up the matchmaking was.

I really do not give a kitten about this game anymore.

@bravan.3876 you literally never have any valid arguments and just repeated the whole "you're wrong I'm right" that numerous people have pointed out in the past@apharma.3741 you're also annoying lol this build clearly works at high ratings... when I'm quing mid day in the top 80 or above I'm getting in the matches with the rest of the high rated people you just have a hard on for defending mesmer and everyone knows that

inb4 im biased cause ranger main, ranger got kitten on last balance patch so i dont want to play that class (or this game anymore) and sic em and boonbeast builds are still stupid

I'm done with this game lol AAU here I come

My criticisms centred around your methodology being flawed in that you couldn't correlate gains and losses due to constant swapping of class with a low data pool.

Other criticisms were how you misrepresented facts to make aspects look stronger than they were, in a similar way to heat therapy in the Holo thread, while also leaving out crucial details.

Your little experiment doesn't support the idea that this build in this meta at this time is "one of the strongest carry builds in ranked asides from tools holo."

Did he just delete his post? Didn't know you can fully delete posts :scream:

Only moderators can delete posts as far as I know. Regardless it's quoted above.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Highest rating this season was 1662 or maybe a match or two higher idk.

My teams for the past 3 days of quing literally could not get above 50/100/200 points. Many of them AFK'd at the start I literally cannot do anything else in those scenarios.

I lost for 3 days straight on both EU and NA on multiple classes with breaks in between losses over the course of several days. Hence why I made that thread about how utterly kitten up the matchmaking was.

I really do not give a kitten about this game anymore.

@bravan.3876 you literally never have any valid arguments and just repeated the whole "you're wrong I'm right" that numerous people have pointed out in the past@apharma.3741 you're also annoying lol this build clearly works at high ratings... when I'm quing mid day in the top 80 or above I'm getting in the matches with the rest of the high rated people you just have a hard on for defending mesmer and everyone knows that

inb4 im biased cause ranger main, ranger got kitten on last balance patch so i dont want to play that class (or this game anymore) and sic em and boonbeast builds are still stupid

I'm done with this game lol AAU here I come

My criticisms centred around your methodology being flawed in that you couldn't correlate gains and losses due to constant swapping of class with a low data pool.

Other criticisms were how you misrepresented facts to make aspects look stronger than they were, in a similar way to heat therapy in the Holo thread, while also leaving out crucial details.

Your little experiment doesn't support the idea that this build in this meta at this time is "one of the strongest carry builds in ranked asides from tools holo."

Did he just delete his post? Didn't know you can fully delete posts :scream:

Only moderators can delete posts as far as I know. Regardless it's quoted above.

Ok that is what i thought too.

On a side note: Do you realize how he mentioned how high rated he always was in NA and EU before he even started to play Mantrames? I mean, we cannot deny that builds can be that lame, that they carry players higher than they deserve but how you prove a build is carrying you, when you are high rated anyway no matter what you play? Now it seems he was even lower rated than he claimed he was before. Means if we don't want to fully deny that he proved anything with his little project, than he more proved quite the opposite: He couldn't even reach his normal rank with that build... even when you count in that he is not Mesmer main, he claimed this build is that easy to play that he should have been into it after 100+ games already right? Means that is also no argument he could use without contradicting himself.

Same flawed logic as to say a build is that easy but no one in EU can play it (during claiming skill lvl in EU is the same than NA)...

Logic is not his long suit. And that is pretty much all the essence of this story.

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@bravan.3876 said:As mentioned only Mantra Mirage rly needs Mantra of Pain for the same result.??

BTW for me the conclusion is that :MoP is a one trick tools.PU was never used in high level PvP because :

  • During stealth opponents can move/regen/aoe/drink cofee.
  • A stealth gameplay didn't allow point capturing.

So basically you can one shot occasionally but you will lose game contribution while being :

  • Less mobile than other +1 class.
  • Putting way less pressure between burts than other burst class.
  • Having burst combo to setup while other class can 4 to 9k damage/clic.

So It's at the core gard burst level : it oneshot sometimes but it's far to be the most efficient way to play mesmer in PvP. (And far to be OP.)

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@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:As mentioned only Mantra Mirage rly needs Mantra of Pain for the same result.??

BTW for me the conclusion is that :MoP is a one trick tools.PU was never used in high level PvP because :
  • During stealth opponents can move/regen/aoe/drink cofee.
  • A stealth gameplay didn't allow point capturing.

So basically you can one shot occasionally but you will lose game contribution while being :
  • Less mobile than other +1 class.
  • Putting way less pressure between burts than other burst class.
  • Having burst combo to setup while other class can 4 to 9k damage/clic.

So It's at the core gard burst level : it oneshot sometimes but it's far to be the most efficient way to play mesmer in PvP. (And far to be OP.)

My argument was simply about if Mantra of Pain is needed for the oneshot or not. And his build can oneshot the same builds also without it. But even when it is needed for the oneshot (like on Powermirage) it doesn't make the oneshot any more or less predictable. Only Chaosline had an impact on how less predictable thus how easy it is to land the combo because of the long stealth duration.

Btw a roaming build can use stealth as much as it wants, its not the job of the build to def points anyway. That is why during HoT d/p daredevil still was the best roaming class. Not only the most mobility but also stealth for sneaky decaps and sneaky +1. PU was not used in high ranked because Powermes was not used in high ranked. And when it was used then either to prove some skill and then ofc without Inspiration or Chaos or with Inspiration instead Chaos because of the condi heavy meta. Chaosline PU never was not used in PvP because it was bad, just because other stuff made more sense in conquest. In WvW Power PU always was a big dog because in WvW roles and team usefulness don't matter over personal buildcarry of the player itself. On Condimirage Chaosline is still meta and was already before patch. Not with PU for certain, because a side node/ dueller class ofc doesn't want stealth.

What weird argument to say ppl can reggen/ move/ drink coffee during stealth, they also can do that during a Warrior shield block or Guards Renewed Focus... doesn't make the shield block any less viable.

In your argumentation a Powermes or any glassy roaming build always lose game contribution when it needs to kite/ disengagge because of focus while other classes can stand on point and facetank. But you forget that kiting/ disengageing for a glassy rotation dmg dealer is part of game contribution by simple surviving and holding opponents busy during that and same for creating the need of keeping track of its rotations so he cannot surprisingly +1 a dueller makes him die instant to the +1. It is exactly the job of a roaming build to incoming fast into a fight, get a kill and then leave before getting focused to death, then pop out somewhere else to +1 there or decap. Core Chaosline PU does that in a very effective (except for outfight mobility) and the most easy to play way, duo to long stealth duration and very good passive sustain while still being able to oneshot. All you mentioned is quite a strength of the build according to the job it is meant for not a weakness.

Yes true that a Holo is a better Powermesmer at this point and other builds being still stronger and easier to play , but that is not my point. I would nerf these builds too or at least rework them into something with higher skill ceiling. Justifying something by saying something else is just as lame or even more lame is never a good balance argument (at least when we want skillful balance and not only balance).

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If anything this thread proven that mesmer is medicore, and that clearly better player cant carry kitten with it.It all comes down to action economy, the time you spend in stealth/charging mantras is the time other builds would spend applying pressure, forcing cooldowns, decaping/capping.if you kite during a teamfight to recharge mantra/mantras other build would be able to use 2-3 hardhitters in the meantime, might be a reason why your teammates just couldnt pull it off the higher you went.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@bravan.3876 said:As mentioned only Mantra Mirage rly needs Mantra of Pain for the same result.??

BTW for me the conclusion is that :MoP is a one trick tools.PU was never used in high level PvP because :
  • During stealth opponents can move/regen/aoe/drink cofee.
  • A stealth gameplay didn't allow point capturing.

So basically you can one shot occasionally but you will lose game contribution while being :
  • Less mobile than other +1 class.
  • Putting way less pressure between burts than other burst class.
  • Having burst combo to setup while other class can 4 to 9k damage/clic.

So It's at the core gard burst level : it oneshot sometimes but it's far to be the most efficient way to play mesmer in PvP. (And far to be OP.)

My argument was simply about if Mantra of Pain is needed for the oneshot or not. And his build can oneshot the same builds also without it. But even when it is needed for the oneshot (like on Powermirage) it doesn't make the oneshot any more or less predictable. Only Chaosline had an impact on how less predictable thus how easy it is to land the combo because of the long stealth duration.

And when it was used then either to prove some skill and then ofc without Inspiration or Chaos or with Inspiration instead Chaos because of the condi heavy meta.Yeah yeah we all know that for you the only way to be skill on a mesmer is to play the 6 years old monogameplay domination/duel/illusion (or mirage.). Thanks for this each post clarification. Again, where are thoses mirage in ladder/tournament ? :D (Ho I miss that it's not an argument while saying "cheese" "carry" and so on on most post is...)If you want to continue this line, no problem but again I will not give up.Chaosline PU never was not used in PvP because it was bad, just because other stuff made more sense in conquest.Which is the definition of being a bad thing, thanks for this obvious fact.What weird argument to say ppl can reggen/ move/ drink coffee during stealth, they also can do that during a Warrior shield block or Guards Renewed Focus... doesn't make the shield block any less viable.In case you didn't know, war can still anticap during shield block, which is the hudge difference between this and gard RF or mesmer stealth. Then, war have other temporisation skills based on weapon or high evade cycle while a PU mesmer hudgely relie on stealth.Then other difference between a 25 sec CD 3 sec block or a 30 sec CD 4 sec stealth is that you can be hit during stealth by aoe damage/CC or revealed. (We can see that pretty well on last shadow vid where he die in 1,5 sec by a FB aoe CC.) Which is far to be the case with a block (who can still be unblocable.).Then the more block/stealth duration, the best time opponent isn't pressured. Again that's highiled in shadow vid where opponents regulary fully regen while he temporize in stealth.It's probably a better argumentation than you usual it's skill or not, and IMO not that weird.In your argumentation a Powermes or any glassy roaming build always lose game contribution when it needs to kite/ disengagge because of focus while other classes can stand on point and facetank. But you forget that kiting/ disengageing for a glassy rotation dmg dealer is part of game contribution by simple surviving and holding opponents busy during that and same for creating the need of keeping track of its rotations so he cannot surprisingly +1 a dueller makes him die instant to the +1. It is exactly the job of a roaming build to incoming fast into a fight, get a kill and then leave before getting focused to death, then pop out somewhere else to +1 there or decap. Core Chaosline PU does that in a very effective (except for outfight mobility) and the most easy to play way, duo to long stealth duration and very good passive sustain while still being able to oneshot. All you mentioned is quite a strength of the build according to the job it is meant for not a weakness.No, powermirage did that better and easier.To give you a use case :
  • You come to a 1v1 to +1 the duel.
  • For X reasons, you miss the burst (random CC, passive effect on opponent, teleport etc..).
  • On coremes : you can't put more pressure for the next 5 to 10 seconds, wasting precious time.
  • On mirage : you can still pressure by ambush waiting for the next burst.

I know that you aren't a mesmer main, but it's why mirage is more efficient. (not even talking about point to point mobility.)

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@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:As mentioned only Mantra Mirage rly needs Mantra of Pain for the same result.??

BTW for me the conclusion is that :MoP is a one trick tools.PU was never used in high level PvP because :
  • During stealth opponents can move/regen/aoe/drink cofee.
  • A stealth gameplay didn't allow point capturing.

So basically you can one shot occasionally but you will lose game contribution while being :
  • Less mobile than other +1 class.
  • Putting way less pressure between burts than other burst class.
  • Having burst combo to setup while other class can 4 to 9k damage/clic.

So It's at the core gard burst level : it oneshot sometimes but it's far to be the most efficient way to play mesmer in PvP. (And far to be OP.)

My argument was simply about if Mantra of Pain is needed for the oneshot or not. And his build can oneshot the same builds also without it. But even when it is needed for the oneshot (like on Powermirage) it doesn't make the oneshot any more or less predictable. Only Chaosline had an impact on how less predictable thus how easy it is to land the combo because of the long stealth duration.

And when it was used then either to prove some skill and then ofc without Inspiration or Chaos or with Inspiration instead Chaos because of the condi heavy meta.Yeah yeah we all know that for you the only way to be skill on a mesmer is to play the 6 years old monogameplay domination/duel/illusion (or mirage.). Thanks for this each post clarification. Again, where are thoses mirage in ladder/tournament ? :D (Ho I miss that it's not an argument while saying "cheese" "carry" and so on on most post is...)If you want to continue this line, no problem but again I will not give up.Chaosline PU never was not used in PvP because it was bad, just because other stuff made more sense in conquest.Which is the definition of being a bad thing, thanks for this obvious fact.What weird argument to say ppl can reggen/ move/ drink coffee during stealth, they also can do that during a Warrior shield block or Guards Renewed Focus... doesn't make the shield block any less viable.In case you didn't know, war can still anticap during shield block, which is the hudge difference between this and gard RF or mesmer stealth. Then, war have other temporisation skills based on weapon or high evade cycle while a PU mesmer hudgely relie on stealth.Then other difference between a 25 sec CD 3 sec block or a 30 sec CD 4 sec stealth is that you can be hit during stealth by aoe damage/CC or revealed. (We can see that pretty well on last shadow vid where he die in 1,5 sec by a FB aoe CC.) Which is far to be the case with a block (who can still be unblocable.).Then the more block/stealth duration, the best time opponent isn't pressured. Again that's highiled in shadow vid where opponents regulary fully regen while he temporize in stealth.It's probably a better argumentation than you usual it's skill or not, and IMO not that weird.In your argumentation a Powermes or any glassy roaming build always lose game contribution when it needs to kite/ disengagge because of focus while other classes can stand on point and facetank. But you forget that kiting/ disengageing for a glassy rotation dmg dealer is part of game contribution by simple surviving and holding opponents busy during that and same for creating the need of keeping track of its rotations so he cannot surprisingly +1 a dueller makes him die instant to the +1. It is exactly the job of a roaming build to incoming fast into a fight, get a kill and then leave before getting focused to death, then pop out somewhere else to +1 there or decap. Core Chaosline PU does that in a very effective (except for outfight mobility) and the most easy to play way, duo to long stealth duration and very good passive sustain while still being able to oneshot. All you mentioned is quite a strength of the build according to the job it is meant for not a weakness.No, powermirage did that better and easier.To give you a use case :
  • You come to a 1v1 to +1 the duel.
  • For X reasons, you miss the burst (random CC, passive effect on opponent, teleport etc..).
  • On coremes : you can't put more pressure for the next 5 to 10 seconds, wasting precious time.
  • On mirage : you can still pressure by ambush waiting for the next burst.

I know that you aren't a mesmer main, but it's why mirage is more efficient. (not even talking about point to point mobility.)

I agree that Mirage is more useful for the team i never said something else. I said that Core Chaosline Mesmers substitute team/conquest usefulness (aka map mobility and utility) for selfish player carry (selfish passive sustain, easier to apply burst from longer stealth) when playing Core Chaos instead Mirage. You were the one trying to tell me, that you can be just as useful on Core don't you remember?

Lets not say noobfriendly when you have problems with that term but it rly is common that Chaos and Inspiration are the newbiefriendliest lines with the lowest skill ceiling. When i face a Core Chaosline Mesmer i have more problems with him even in duels than with the same player on Powermirage, simply because with the pure amount of stealth/ higher stealth duration he can too easy bait out defensive cds without outplaying me actively. Then he also has very good sustain when failing, makes him survive long enough for another chance to burst me out of long stealth. As someone tested both builds (and i suck on Powermesmer) and played vs both builds i can say Core Chaosline is way easier to play and harder to play against. Still Mirage is more useful for the team. That is why conquest viability and the lvl of lameness/ low skill ceiling doesn't correlate that much. You have very lame builds on a lot fo classes which are just not the most useful for a specific job in conquest. Not being the best at any role in conquest doesn't automatically mean it is skullful to play or not broken in some aspects. PU is in general an unhealthy mechanic should not exist. I mean why you would disagree to a rework gives Mesmer a trait more useful in PvP than PU but with higher skill ceiling? Just like EM rework would give Mirage one more good trait to choose, instead keeping a broken mechanic nerfed to death, so no one can use it, dead trait... I don't want to nerf only, i more want to rework into healthy mechanic with higher skill ceiling would make Mesmer also more interesting to play, not just nerf to death.

That a Mesmer cannot anticap in stealth doesn't matter it is not the job of that build anyway. I feel like you have no clue how to watch at builds and how to rate builds according to the conquest role it should fill. Also we talked about contribution lvl and i already told you that a glassy roaming dmg dealer still contributes even when kiting/ disengaging/hiding in stealth to lose focus and get an unpredictable attack or rotating (well that counts for all roles in conquest but for roaming builds the most because it is not your job at all to cap/ decap or defend a point).

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Not to be rude but I saw you playing this core Mesmer on Na with a solid duo q partner and you still were no where close to top 30 and this coming from someone who gets top 30 solo q on Na. You should never have gone to eu claiming to make top 30! For one average Elo is higher rn on Eu leaderboards, 2 the players who make top 30 do so with less match manipulation(eg. team USA win traders) and 3rd the meta there is closer to bunker so playing a meme version of a burst spec is less likely to be noticed.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@bravan.3876 said:As mentioned only Mantra Mirage rly needs Mantra of Pain for the same result.??

BTW for me the conclusion is that :MoP is a one trick tools.PU was never used in high level PvP because :
  • During stealth opponents can move/regen/aoe/drink cofee.
  • A stealth gameplay didn't allow point capturing.

So basically you can one shot occasionally but you will lose game contribution while being :
  • Less mobile than other +1 class.
  • Putting way less pressure between burts than other burst class.
  • Having burst combo to setup while other class can 4 to 9k damage/clic.

So It's at the core gard burst level : it oneshot sometimes but it's far to be the most efficient way to play mesmer in PvP. (And far to be OP.)

My argument was simply about if Mantra of Pain is needed for the oneshot or not. And his build can oneshot the same builds also without it. But even when it is needed for the oneshot (like on Powermirage) it doesn't make the oneshot any more or less predictable. Only Chaosline had an impact on how less predictable thus how easy it is to land the combo because of the long stealth duration.

And when it was used then either to prove some skill and then ofc without Inspiration or Chaos or with Inspiration instead Chaos because of the condi heavy meta.Yeah yeah we all know that for you the only way to be skill on a mesmer is to play the 6 years old monogameplay domination/duel/illusion (or mirage.). Thanks for this each post clarification. Again, where are thoses mirage in ladder/tournament ? :D (Ho I miss that it's not an argument while saying "cheese" "carry" and so on on most post is...)If you want to continue this line, no problem but again I will not give up.Chaosline PU never was not used in PvP because it was bad, just because other stuff made more sense in conquest.Which is the definition of being a bad thing, thanks for this obvious fact.What weird argument to say ppl can reggen/ move/ drink coffee during stealth, they also can do that during a Warrior shield block or Guards Renewed Focus... doesn't make the shield block any less viable.In case you didn't know, war can still anticap during shield block, which is the hudge difference between this and gard RF or mesmer stealth. Then, war have other temporisation skills based on weapon or high evade cycle while a PU mesmer hudgely relie on stealth.Then other difference between a 25 sec CD 3 sec block or a 30 sec CD 4 sec stealth is that you can be hit during stealth by aoe damage/CC or revealed. (We can see that pretty well on last shadow vid where he die in 1,5 sec by a FB aoe CC.) Which is far to be the case with a block (who can still be unblocable.).Then the more block/stealth duration, the best time opponent isn't pressured. Again that's highiled in shadow vid where opponents regulary fully regen while he temporize in stealth.It's probably a better argumentation than you usual it's skill or not, and IMO not that weird.In your argumentation a Powermes or any glassy roaming build always lose game contribution when it needs to kite/ disengagge because of focus while other classes can stand on point and facetank. But you forget that kiting/ disengageing for a glassy rotation dmg dealer is part of game contribution by simple surviving and holding opponents busy during that and same for creating the need of keeping track of its rotations so he cannot surprisingly +1 a dueller makes him die instant to the +1. It is exactly the job of a roaming build to incoming fast into a fight, get a kill and then leave before getting focused to death, then pop out somewhere else to +1 there or decap. Core Chaosline PU does that in a very effective (except for outfight mobility) and the most easy to play way, duo to long stealth duration and very good passive sustain while still being able to oneshot. All you mentioned is quite a strength of the build according to the job it is meant for not a weakness.No, powermirage did that better and easier.To give you a use case :
  • You come to a 1v1 to +1 the duel.
  • For X reasons, you miss the burst (random CC, passive effect on opponent, teleport etc..).
  • On coremes : you can't put more pressure for the next 5 to 10 seconds, wasting precious time.
  • On mirage : you can still pressure by ambush waiting for the next burst.

I know that you aren't a mesmer main, but it's why mirage is more efficient. (not even talking about point to point mobility.)

Lets not say noobfriendly when you have problems with that term but it rly is common that Chaos and Inspiration are the newbiefriendliest lines with the lowest skill ceiling. When i face a Core Chaosline Mesmer i have more problems with him even in duels than with the same player on Powermirage, simply because with the pure amount of stealth/ higher stealth duration he can too easy bait out defensive cds without outplaying me actively. Then he also has very good sustain when failing, makes him survive long enough for another chance to burst me out of long stealth. As someone tested both builds (and i suck on Powermesmer) and played vs both builds i can say Core Chaosline is way easier to play and harder to play against. Still Mirage is more useful for the team. That is why conquest viability and the lvl of lameness/ low skill ceiling doesn't correlate that much. You have very lame builds on a lot fo classes which are just not the most useful for a specific job in conquest. Not being the best at any role in conquest doesn't automatically mean it is skullful to play or not broken in some aspects. PU is in general an unhealthy mechanic should not exist. I mean why you would disagree to a rework gives Mesmer a trait more useful in PvP than PU but with higher skill ceiling? Just like EM rework would give Mirage one more good trait to choose, instead keeping a broken mechanic nerfed to death, so no one can use it, dead trait... I don't want to nerf only, i more want to rework into healthy mechanic with higher skill ceiling would make Mesmer also more interesting to play, not just nerf to death.

That a Mesmer cannot anticap in stealth doesn't matter it is not the job of that build anyway. I feel like you have no clue how to watch at builds and how to rate builds according to the conquest role it should fill. Also we talked about contribution lvl and i already told you that a glassy roaming dmg dealer still contributes even when kiting/ disengaging/hiding in stealth to lose focus and get an unpredictable attack or rotating (well that counts for all roles in conquest but for roaming builds the most because it is not your job at all to cap/ decap or defend a point).

Should it be me who have a problem with relative arguments like noobfriendly, carrying etc or you who can''t differenciate the purpose of defensive line with the implication it mean, we didn't agree ofc.I don't consider less skilled to make a 1 minute fight because of less damage output and more defensive tools than to do a 20 second fight because of all damage trait taken.As someone who main mesmer since everytime and regulary change builds, I didn't agree about how it is "easy" to fight a powermirage contrary to a core PU mes.PU is a choice of losing damage/boons to have better stealth duration. It's not worth it anymore in WvW thanks to multiple structure and reveal items. And was never good in PvP for the above reasons. What I see is just that you want a gameplay removed because you don't like it (so you consider it "unealthy etc".).And after the Lost time, CI etc discussion where your main arguments was basically the same, and we ended up with 2 dead traits, you will be thankfull to calm down about your "rework" suggestions who destroy the class step by step.

Mesmer didn't anticap but you want to compare stealth versus block. I have no clue about PvP roles and placements ofc, I'm plat3 every season I play because PvP is dead and build carry.PU mantra build isn't even good at roaming +1 ing because as highlithed in shadow vids, burst haven't 100% chances to get a down and mesmer spend half his time channeling his mantra/waiting for next burst while other roamers put constant pressure + some burst spikes.

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@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:As mentioned only Mantra Mirage rly needs Mantra of Pain for the same result.??

BTW for me the conclusion is that :MoP is a one trick tools.PU was never used in high level PvP because :
  • During stealth opponents can move/regen/aoe/drink cofee.
  • A stealth gameplay didn't allow point capturing.

So basically you can one shot occasionally but you will lose game contribution while being :
  • Less mobile than other +1 class.
  • Putting way less pressure between burts than other burst class.
  • Having burst combo to setup while other class can 4 to 9k damage/clic.

So It's at the core gard burst level : it oneshot sometimes but it's far to be the most efficient way to play mesmer in PvP. (And far to be OP.)

My argument was simply about if Mantra of Pain is needed for the oneshot or not. And his build can oneshot the same builds also without it. But even when it is needed for the oneshot (like on Powermirage) it doesn't make the oneshot any more or less predictable. Only Chaosline had an impact on how less predictable thus how easy it is to land the combo because of the long stealth duration.

And when it was used then either to prove some skill and then ofc without Inspiration or Chaos or with Inspiration instead Chaos because of the condi heavy meta.Yeah yeah we all know that for you the only way to be skill on a mesmer is to play the 6 years old monogameplay domination/duel/illusion (or mirage.). Thanks for this each post clarification. Again, where are thoses mirage in ladder/tournament ? :D (Ho I miss that it's not an argument while saying "cheese" "carry" and so on on most post is...)If you want to continue this line, no problem but again I will not give up.Chaosline PU never was not used in PvP because it was bad, just because other stuff made more sense in conquest.Which is the definition of being a bad thing, thanks for this obvious fact.What weird argument to say ppl can reggen/ move/ drink coffee during stealth, they also can do that during a Warrior shield block or Guards Renewed Focus... doesn't make the shield block any less viable.In case you didn't know, war can still anticap during shield block, which is the hudge difference between this and gard RF or mesmer stealth. Then, war have other temporisation skills based on weapon or high evade cycle while a PU mesmer hudgely relie on stealth.Then other difference between a 25 sec CD 3 sec block or a 30 sec CD 4 sec stealth is that you can be hit during stealth by aoe damage/CC or revealed. (We can see that pretty well on last shadow vid where he die in 1,5 sec by a FB aoe CC.) Which is far to be the case with a block (who can still be unblocable.).Then the more block/stealth duration, the best time opponent isn't pressured. Again that's highiled in shadow vid where opponents regulary fully regen while he temporize in stealth.It's probably a better argumentation than you usual it's skill or not, and IMO not that weird.In your argumentation a Powermes or any glassy roaming build always lose game contribution when it needs to kite/ disengagge because of focus while other classes can stand on point and facetank. But you forget that kiting/ disengageing for a glassy rotation dmg dealer is part of game contribution by simple surviving and holding opponents busy during that and same for creating the need of keeping track of its rotations so he cannot surprisingly +1 a dueller makes him die instant to the +1. It is exactly the job of a roaming build to incoming fast into a fight, get a kill and then leave before getting focused to death, then pop out somewhere else to +1 there or decap. Core Chaosline PU does that in a very effective (except for outfight mobility) and the most easy to play way, duo to long stealth duration and very good passive sustain while still being able to oneshot. All you mentioned is quite a strength of the build according to the job it is meant for not a weakness.No, powermirage did that better and easier.To give you a use case :
  • You come to a 1v1 to +1 the duel.
  • For X reasons, you miss the burst (random CC, passive effect on opponent, teleport etc..).
  • On coremes : you can't put more pressure for the next 5 to 10 seconds, wasting precious time.
  • On mirage : you can still pressure by ambush waiting for the next burst.

I know that you aren't a mesmer main, but it's why mirage is more efficient. (not even talking about point to point mobility.)

Lets not say noobfriendly when you have problems with that term but it rly is common that Chaos and Inspiration are the newbiefriendliest lines with the lowest skill ceiling. When i face a Core Chaosline Mesmer i have more problems with him even in duels than with the same player on Powermirage, simply because with the pure amount of stealth/ higher stealth duration he can too easy bait out defensive cds without outplaying me actively. Then he also has very good sustain when failing, makes him survive long enough for another chance to burst me out of long stealth. As someone tested both builds (and i suck on Powermesmer) and played vs both builds i can say Core Chaosline is way easier to play and harder to play against. Still Mirage is more useful for the team. That is why conquest viability and the lvl of lameness/ low skill ceiling doesn't correlate that much. You have very lame builds on a lot fo classes which are just not the most useful for a specific job in conquest. Not being the best at any role in conquest doesn't automatically mean it is skullful to play or not broken in some aspects. PU is in general an unhealthy mechanic should not exist. I mean why you would disagree to a rework gives Mesmer a trait more useful in PvP than PU but with higher skill ceiling? Just like EM rework would give Mirage one more good trait to choose, instead keeping a broken mechanic nerfed to death, so no one can use it, dead trait... I don't want to nerf only, i more want to rework into healthy mechanic with higher skill ceiling would make Mesmer also more interesting to play, not just nerf to death.

That a Mesmer cannot anticap in stealth doesn't matter it is not the job of that build anyway. I feel like you have no clue how to watch at builds and how to rate builds according to the conquest role it should fill. Also we talked about contribution lvl and i already told you that a glassy roaming dmg dealer still contributes even when kiting/ disengaging/hiding in stealth to lose focus and get an unpredictable attack or rotating (well that counts for all roles in conquest but for roaming builds the most because it is not your job at all to cap/ decap or defend a point).

Should it be me who have a problem with relative arguments like noobfriendly, carrying etc or you who can''t differenciate the purpose of defensive line with the implication it mean, we didn't agree ofc.I don't consider less skilled to make a 1 minute fight because of less damage output and more defensive tools than to do a 20 second fight because of all damage trait taken.As someone who main mesmer since everytime and regulary change builds, I didn't agree about how it is "easy" to fight a powermirage contrary to a core PU mes.PU is a choice of losing damage/boons to have better stealth duration. It's not worth it anymore in WvW thanks to multiple structure and reveal items. And was never good in PvP for the above reasons. What I see is just that you want a gameplay removed because you don't like it (so you consider it "unealthy etc".).And after the Lost time, CI etc discussion where your main arguments was basically the same, and we ended up with 2 dead traits, you will be thankfull to calm down about your "rework" suggestions who destroy the class step by step.

Mesmer didn't anticap but you want to compare stealth versus block. I have no clue about PvP roles and placements ofc, I'm plat3 every season I play because PvP is dead and build carry.PU mantra build isn't even good at roaming +1 ing because as highlithed in shadow vids, burst haven't 100% chances to get a down and mesmer spend half his time channeling his mantra/waiting for next burst while other roamers put constant pressure + some burst spikes.
  1. No, i already said it, he use Chaosline and still has oneshot dmg. That is exactly one point. A build wiht one defensive traitlien should not have oneshot dmg anymore. That is why i say defensive traitlines should have more opportunity costs in dmg. Atm we have a lot of builds like Holo have insane dmg and still high sustain, often even passive.
  2. What is my second point. I don't mind sustain as long as it is mostly active. Most defensive traitlines incl both Mesmers are too passively designed and with a too low skill ceiling. Spamming long stealth never was a skilled or healthy mechanic. I don't mind some stealth but i already explained why removing the need to actively outplay opponents to bait out cds and replace that by simple long stealth duration (what even passively pop boonsustain) leads to a lower skill ceiling. I think that is obviously logical.
  3. I compared steath vs block only in terms of contribution because that was what you were talking about. A roaming +1 build still can contribute quite fine during being stealthed for already explained reasons. During a duel pointhold build cannot rly do the job when stealthing in a duelfight and lose the cap. Means for a roaming class stealth doesn't prevent match contribution.
  4. It is not my fault that Anet reworked them in a bad way (the new CI trait maybe isn't even that bad). But both traits were clearly broken in old version.
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@bravan.3876 said:

@bravan.3876 said:As mentioned only Mantra Mirage rly needs Mantra of Pain for the same result.??

BTW for me the conclusion is that :MoP is a one trick tools.PU was never used in high level PvP because :
  • During stealth opponents can move/regen/aoe/drink cofee.
  • A stealth gameplay didn't allow point capturing.

So basically you can one shot occasionally but you will lose game contribution while being :
  • Less mobile than other +1 class.
  • Putting way less pressure between burts than other burst class.
  • Having burst combo to setup while other class can 4 to 9k damage/clic.

So It's at the core gard burst level : it oneshot sometimes but it's far to be the most efficient way to play mesmer in PvP. (And far to be OP.)

My argument was simply about if Mantra of Pain is needed for the oneshot or not. And his build can oneshot the same builds also without it. But even when it is needed for the oneshot (like on Powermirage) it doesn't make the oneshot any more or less predictable. Only Chaosline had an impact on how less predictable thus how easy it is to land the combo because of the long stealth duration.

And when it was used then either to prove some skill and then ofc without Inspiration or Chaos or with Inspiration instead Chaos because of the condi heavy meta.Yeah yeah we all know that for you the only way to be skill on a mesmer is to play the 6 years old monogameplay domination/duel/illusion (or mirage.). Thanks for this each post clarification. Again, where are thoses mirage in ladder/tournament ? :D (Ho I miss that it's not an argument while saying "cheese" "carry" and so on on most post is...)If you want to continue this line, no problem but again I will not give up.Chaosline PU never was not used in PvP because it was bad, just because other stuff made more sense in conquest.Which is the definition of being a bad thing, thanks for this obvious fact.What weird argument to say ppl can reggen/ move/ drink coffee during stealth, they also can do that during a Warrior shield block or Guards Renewed Focus... doesn't make the shield block any less viable.In case you didn't know, war can still anticap during shield block, which is the hudge difference between this and gard RF or mesmer stealth. Then, war have other temporisation skills based on weapon or high evade cycle while a PU mesmer hudgely relie on stealth.Then other difference between a 25 sec CD 3 sec block or a 30 sec CD 4 sec stealth is that you can be hit during stealth by aoe damage/CC or revealed. (We can see that pretty well on last shadow vid where he die in 1,5 sec by a FB aoe CC.) Which is far to be the case with a block (who can still be unblocable.).Then the more block/stealth duration, the best time opponent isn't pressured. Again that's highiled in shadow vid where opponents regulary fully regen while he temporize in stealth.It's probably a better argumentation than you usual it's skill or not, and IMO not that weird.In your argumentation a Powermes or any glassy roaming build always lose game contribution when it needs to kite/ disengagge because of focus while other classes can stand on point and facetank. But you forget that kiting/ disengageing for a glassy rotation dmg dealer is part of game contribution by simple surviving and holding opponents busy during that and same for creating the need of keeping track of its rotations so he cannot surprisingly +1 a dueller makes him die instant to the +1. It is exactly the job of a roaming build to incoming fast into a fight, get a kill and then leave before getting focused to death, then pop out somewhere else to +1 there or decap. Core Chaosline PU does that in a very effective (except for outfight mobility) and the most easy to play way, duo to long stealth duration and very good passive sustain while still being able to oneshot. All you mentioned is quite a strength of the build according to the job it is meant for not a weakness.No, powermirage did that better and easier.To give you a use case :
  • You come to a 1v1 to +1 the duel.
  • For X reasons, you miss the burst (random CC, passive effect on opponent, teleport etc..).
  • On coremes : you can't put more pressure for the next 5 to 10 seconds, wasting precious time.
  • On mirage : you can still pressure by ambush waiting for the next burst.

I know that you aren't a mesmer main, but it's why mirage is more efficient. (not even talking about point to point mobility.)

Lets not say noobfriendly when you have problems with that term but it rly is common that Chaos and Inspiration are the newbiefriendliest lines with the lowest skill ceiling. When i face a Core Chaosline Mesmer i have more problems with him even in duels than with the same player on Powermirage, simply because with the pure amount of stealth/ higher stealth duration he can too easy bait out defensive cds without outplaying me actively. Then he also has very good sustain when failing, makes him survive long enough for another chance to burst me out of long stealth. As someone tested both builds (and i suck on Powermesmer) and played vs both builds i can say Core Chaosline is way easier to play and harder to play against. Still Mirage is more useful for the team. That is why conquest viability and the lvl of lameness/ low skill ceiling doesn't correlate that much. You have very lame builds on a lot fo classes which are just not the most useful for a specific job in conquest. Not being the best at any role in conquest doesn't automatically mean it is skullful to play or not broken in some aspects. PU is in general an unhealthy mechanic should not exist. I mean why you would disagree to a rework gives Mesmer a trait more useful in PvP than PU but with higher skill ceiling? Just like EM rework would give Mirage one more good trait to choose, instead keeping a broken mechanic nerfed to death, so no one can use it, dead trait... I don't want to nerf only, i more want to rework into healthy mechanic with higher skill ceiling would make Mesmer also more interesting to play, not just nerf to death.

That a Mesmer cannot anticap in stealth doesn't matter it is not the job of that build anyway. I feel like you have no clue how to watch at builds and how to rate builds according to the conquest role it should fill. Also we talked about contribution lvl and i already told you that a glassy roaming dmg dealer still contributes even when kiting/ disengaging/hiding in stealth to lose focus and get an unpredictable attack or rotating (well that counts for all roles in conquest but for roaming builds the most because it is not your job at all to cap/ decap or defend a point).

Should it be me who have a problem with relative arguments like noobfriendly, carrying etc or you who can''t differenciate the purpose of defensive line with the implication it mean, we didn't agree ofc.I don't consider less skilled to make a 1 minute fight because of less damage output and more defensive tools than to do a 20 second fight because of all damage trait taken.As someone who main mesmer since everytime and regulary change builds, I didn't agree about how it is "easy" to fight a powermirage contrary to a core PU mes.PU is a choice of losing damage/boons to have better stealth duration. It's not worth it anymore in WvW thanks to multiple structure and reveal items. And was never good in PvP for the above reasons. What I see is just that you want a gameplay removed because you don't like it (so you consider it "unealthy etc".).And after the Lost time, CI etc discussion where your main arguments was basically the same, and we ended up with 2 dead traits, you will be thankfull to calm down about your "rework" suggestions who destroy the class step by step.

Mesmer didn't anticap but you want to compare stealth versus block. I have no clue about PvP roles and placements ofc, I'm plat3 every season I play because PvP is dead and build carry.PU mantra build isn't even good at roaming +1 ing because as highlithed in shadow vids, burst haven't 100% chances to get a down and mesmer spend half his time channeling his mantra/waiting for next burst while other roamers put constant pressure + some burst spikes.
  1. No, i already said it, he use Chaosline and still has oneshot dmg. That is exactly one point. A build wiht one defensive traitlien should not have oneshot dmg anymore. That is why i say defensive traitlines should have more opportunity costs in dmg. Atm we have a lot of builds like Holo have insane dmg and still high sustain, often even passive.
  2. What is my second point. I don't mind sustain as long as it is mostly active. Most defensive traitlines incl both Mesmers are too passively designed and with a too low skill ceiling. Spamming long stealth never was a skilled or healthy mechanic. I don't mind some stealth but i already explained why removing the need to actively outplay opponents to bait out cds and replace that by simple by long stealth duration leads to a lower skill ceiling. I think that is obviously logical.
  3. I compared steath vs block only in terms of contribution because that was what you were talking about. A roaming +1 build still can contribute quite fine during being stealthed for already explained reasons. During a duel pointhold build cannot rly do the job when stealthing in a duelfight and lose the cap. Means for a roaming class stealth doesn't prevent match contribution.
  4. It is not my fault that Anet reworked them in a bad way (the new CI trait maybe isn't even that bad). But both traits were clearly broken in old version.

I think you dont get it. It doesnt matter how many deffensive or ovvensive traits you take. END resoult is what matters.this core mesmer with 1 DEFENSIVE traitline is not defensive at all, who is more defensive, full damage berserker or this core mesmer?

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@bravan.3876 said:As mentioned only Mantra Mirage rly needs Mantra of Pain for the same result.??

BTW for me the conclusion is that :MoP is a one trick tools.PU was never used in high level PvP because :
  • During stealth opponents can move/regen/aoe/drink cofee.
  • A stealth gameplay didn't allow point capturing.

So basically you can one shot occasionally but you will lose game contribution while being :
  • Less mobile than other +1 class.
  • Putting way less pressure between burts than other burst class.
  • Having burst combo to setup while other class can 4 to 9k damage/clic.

So It's at the core gard burst level : it oneshot sometimes but it's far to be the most efficient way to play mesmer in PvP. (And far to be OP.)

My argument was simply about if Mantra of Pain is needed for the oneshot or not. And his build can oneshot the same builds also without it. But even when it is needed for the oneshot (like on Powermirage) it doesn't make the oneshot any more or less predictable. Only Chaosline had an impact on how less predictable thus how easy it is to land the combo because of the long stealth duration.

And when it was used then either to prove some skill and then ofc without Inspiration or Chaos or with Inspiration instead Chaos because of the condi heavy meta.Yeah yeah we all know that for you the only way to be skill on a mesmer is to play the 6 years old monogameplay domination/duel/illusion (or mirage.). Thanks for this each post clarification. Again, where are thoses mirage in ladder/tournament ? :D (Ho I miss that it's not an argument while saying "cheese" "carry" and so on on most post is...)If you want to continue this line, no problem but again I will not give up.Chaosline PU never was not used in PvP because it was bad, just because other stuff made more sense in conquest.Which is the definition of being a bad thing, thanks for this obvious fact.What weird argument to say ppl can reggen/ move/ drink coffee during stealth, they also can do that during a Warrior shield block or Guards Renewed Focus... doesn't make the shield block any less viable.In case you didn't know, war can still anticap during shield block, which is the hudge difference between this and gard RF or mesmer stealth. Then, war have other temporisation skills based on weapon or high evade cycle while a PU mesmer hudgely relie on stealth.Then other difference between a 25 sec CD 3 sec block or a 30 sec CD 4 sec stealth is that you can be hit during stealth by aoe damage/CC or revealed. (We can see that pretty well on last shadow vid where he die in 1,5 sec by a FB aoe CC.) Which is far to be the case with a block (who can still be unblocable.).Then the more block/stealth duration, the best time opponent isn't pressured. Again that's highiled in shadow vid where opponents regulary fully regen while he temporize in stealth.It's probably a better argumentation than you usual it's skill or not, and IMO not that weird.In your argumentation a Powermes or any glassy roaming build always lose game contribution when it needs to kite/ disengagge because of focus while other classes can stand on point and facetank. But you forget that kiting/ disengageing for a glassy rotation dmg dealer is part of game contribution by simple surviving and holding opponents busy during that and same for creating the need of keeping track of its rotations so he cannot surprisingly +1 a dueller makes him die instant to the +1. It is exactly the job of a roaming build to incoming fast into a fight, get a kill and then leave before getting focused to death, then pop out somewhere else to +1 there or decap. Core Chaosline PU does that in a very effective (except for outfight mobility) and the most easy to play way, duo to long stealth duration and very good passive sustain while still being able to oneshot. All you mentioned is quite a strength of the build according to the job it is meant for not a weakness.No, powermirage did that better and easier.To give you a use case :
  • You come to a 1v1 to +1 the duel.
  • For X reasons, you miss the burst (random CC, passive effect on opponent, teleport etc..).
  • On coremes : you can't put more pressure for the next 5 to 10 seconds, wasting precious time.
  • On mirage : you can still pressure by ambush waiting for the next burst.

I know that you aren't a mesmer main, but it's why mirage is more efficient. (not even talking about point to point mobility.)

Lets not say noobfriendly when you have problems with that term but it rly is common that Chaos and Inspiration are the newbiefriendliest lines with the lowest skill ceiling. When i face a Core Chaosline Mesmer i have more problems with him even in duels than with the same player on Powermirage, simply because with the pure amount of stealth/ higher stealth duration he can too easy bait out defensive cds without outplaying me actively. Then he also has very good sustain when failing, makes him survive long enough for another chance to burst me out of long stealth. As someone tested both builds (and i suck on Powermesmer) and played vs both builds i can say Core Chaosline is way easier to play and harder to play against. Still Mirage is more useful for the team. That is why conquest viability and the lvl of lameness/ low skill ceiling doesn't correlate that much. You have very lame builds on a lot fo classes which are just not the most useful for a specific job in conquest. Not being the best at any role in conquest doesn't automatically mean it is skullful to play or not broken in some aspects. PU is in general an unhealthy mechanic should not exist. I mean why you would disagree to a rework gives Mesmer a trait more useful in PvP than PU but with higher skill ceiling? Just like EM rework would give Mirage one more good trait to choose, instead keeping a broken mechanic nerfed to death, so no one can use it, dead trait... I don't want to nerf only, i more want to rework into healthy mechanic with higher skill ceiling would make Mesmer also more interesting to play, not just nerf to death.

That a Mesmer cannot anticap in stealth doesn't matter it is not the job of that build anyway. I feel like you have no clue how to watch at builds and how to rate builds according to the conquest role it should fill. Also we talked about contribution lvl and i already told you that a glassy roaming dmg dealer still contributes even when kiting/ disengaging/hiding in stealth to lose focus and get an unpredictable attack or rotating (well that counts for all roles in conquest but for roaming builds the most because it is not your job at all to cap/ decap or defend a point).

Should it be me who have a problem with relative arguments like noobfriendly, carrying etc or you who can''t differenciate the purpose of defensive line with the implication it mean, we didn't agree ofc.I don't consider less skilled to make a 1 minute fight because of less damage output and more defensive tools than to do a 20 second fight because of all damage trait taken.As someone who main mesmer since everytime and regulary change builds, I didn't agree about how it is "easy" to fight a powermirage contrary to a core PU mes.PU is a choice of losing damage/boons to have better stealth duration. It's not worth it anymore in WvW thanks to multiple structure and reveal items. And was never good in PvP for the above reasons. What I see is just that you want a gameplay removed because you don't like it (so you consider it "unealthy etc".).And after the Lost time, CI etc discussion where your main arguments was basically the same, and we ended up with 2 dead traits, you will be thankfull to calm down about your "rework" suggestions who destroy the class step by step.

Mesmer didn't anticap but you want to compare stealth versus block. I have no clue about PvP roles and placements ofc, I'm plat3 every season I play because PvP is dead and build carry.PU mantra build isn't even good at roaming +1 ing because as highlithed in shadow vids, burst haven't 100% chances to get a down and mesmer spend half his time channeling his mantra/waiting for next burst while other roamers put constant pressure + some burst spikes.
  1. No, i already said it, he use Chaosline and still has oneshot dmg. That is exactly one point. A build wiht one defensive traitlien should not have oneshot dmg anymore. That is why i say defensive traitlines should have more opportunity costs in dmg. Atm we have a lot of builds like Holo have insane dmg and still high sustain, often even passive.
  2. What is my second point. I don't mind sustain as long as it is mostly active. Most defensive traitlines incl both Mesmers are too passively designed and with a too low skill ceiling. Spamming long stealth never was a skilled or healthy mechanic. I don't mind some stealth but i already explained why removing the need to actively outplay opponents to bait out cds and replace that by simple by long stealth duration leads to a lower skill ceiling. I think that is obviously logical.
  3. I compared steath vs block only in terms of contribution because that was what you were talking about. A roaming +1 build still can contribute quite fine during being stealthed for already explained reasons. During a duel pointhold build cannot rly do the job when stealthing in a duelfight and lose the cap. Means for a roaming class stealth doesn't prevent match contribution.
  4. It is not my fault that Anet reworked them in a bad way (the new CI trait maybe isn't even that bad). But both traits were clearly broken in old version.

I think you dont get it. It doesnt matter how many deffensive or ovvensive traits you take. END resoult is what matters.this core mesmer with 1 DEFENSIVE traitline is not defensive at all, who is more defensive, full damage berserker or this core mesmer?

I am not sure what you mean, end result is that a oneshot build has high passive sustain in addition and also some more active sustain. There were a lot of situations Shadowpass would have died without Chaosline but this traitline made him survive without him even playing that well. Chaosline turns a high risk high reward build into low risk high reward. Warrior has some issues too but as said that is no justification for Chaosline.

I get that both of you like to play Chaosline and for that don't want to get it nerfed but that Chaosline (in particular PU on a oneshot build) makes playing Mesmer clearly easier, more forgiving and is an unhealthy mechanic is so obvious that i don't understand why we have a dispute about that. We can argue about if it needs nerfs or not, i am ok with you both disagree in that point but that Chaosline has a lower skill ceiling than builds without it is rly a fact. I already agreed that Chaosline Mesmer is not more broken compared to other Metabuilds but that is no argument, i would nerf/ rework all meta builds/ most defensive traitlines from all classes too though.

But it feels like we turn around in a circle. As said i am totally fine with ppl disagree with me about if it needs a nerf or rework. Just let it keep like that.

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Actually I think this was my highest on EU.

1675 rating, rank 62

Solo que only core mantra mesmer. If I had a semi-competant duo that could at least hold a 1v1, would've gotten top 30 a lot more easily/sooner.

But yeah I've proven my point. I took a glass build I had zero prior experience on and solo climbed from around 1440 at the lowest point to nearly 1700 in a little more than a week. The build is clearly efficient at climbing alone, and would be even more so with a duo. Anyone who said that this build can't function on EU because everyone dodges the bursts and will easily focus me so I can't do anything was wrong. There are around 70, unedited, games in a row that prove otherwise.

I have a few more games I could upload. In 2 or 3 of them, I won 1v1 and 1v2 against the rank 9 player at the time on EU but we'll see how much time I have between school and AAU.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@bravan.3876 said:As mentioned only Mantra Mirage rly needs Mantra of Pain for the same result.??

BTW for me the conclusion is that :MoP is a one trick tools.PU was never used in high level PvP because :
  • During stealth opponents can move/regen/aoe/drink cofee.
  • A stealth gameplay didn't allow point capturing.

So basically you can one shot occasionally but you will lose game contribution while being :
  • Less mobile than other +1 class.
  • Putting way less pressure between burts than other burst class.
  • Having burst combo to setup while other class can 4 to 9k damage/clic.

So It's at the core gard burst level : it oneshot sometimes but it's far to be the most efficient way to play mesmer in PvP. (And far to be OP.)

My argument was simply about if Mantra of Pain is needed for the oneshot or not. And his build can oneshot the same builds also without it. But even when it is needed for the oneshot (like on Powermirage) it doesn't make the oneshot any more or less predictable. Only Chaosline had an impact on how less predictable thus how easy it is to land the combo because of the long stealth duration.

And when it was used then either to prove some skill and then ofc without Inspiration or Chaos or with Inspiration instead Chaos because of the condi heavy meta.Yeah yeah we all know that for you the only way to be skill on a mesmer is to play the 6 years old monogameplay domination/duel/illusion (or mirage.). Thanks for this each post clarification. Again, where are thoses mirage in ladder/tournament ? :D (Ho I miss that it's not an argument while saying "cheese" "carry" and so on on most post is...)If you want to continue this line, no problem but again I will not give up.Chaosline PU never was not used in PvP because it was bad, just because other stuff made more sense in conquest.Which is the definition of being a bad thing, thanks for this obvious fact.What weird argument to say ppl can reggen/ move/ drink coffee during stealth, they also can do that during a Warrior shield block or Guards Renewed Focus... doesn't make the shield block any less viable.In case you didn't know, war can still anticap during shield block, which is the hudge difference between this and gard RF or mesmer stealth. Then, war have other temporisation skills based on weapon or high evade cycle while a PU mesmer hudgely relie on stealth.Then other difference between a 25 sec CD 3 sec block or a 30 sec CD 4 sec stealth is that you can be hit during stealth by aoe damage/CC or revealed. (We can see that pretty well on last shadow vid where he die in 1,5 sec by a FB aoe CC.) Which is far to be the case with a block (who can still be unblocable.).Then the more block/stealth duration, the best time opponent isn't pressured. Again that's highiled in shadow vid where opponents regulary fully regen while he temporize in stealth.It's probably a better argumentation than you usual it's skill or not, and IMO not that weird.In your argumentation a Powermes or any glassy roaming build always lose game contribution when it needs to kite/ disengagge because of focus while other classes can stand on point and facetank. But you forget that kiting/ disengageing for a glassy rotation dmg dealer is part of game contribution by simple surviving and holding opponents busy during that and same for creating the need of keeping track of its rotations so he cannot surprisingly +1 a dueller makes him die instant to the +1. It is exactly the job of a roaming build to incoming fast into a fight, get a kill and then leave before getting focused to death, then pop out somewhere else to +1 there or decap. Core Chaosline PU does that in a very effective (except for outfight mobility) and the most easy to play way, duo to long stealth duration and very good passive sustain while still being able to oneshot. All you mentioned is quite a strength of the build according to the job it is meant for not a weakness.No, powermirage did that better and easier.To give you a use case :
  • You come to a 1v1 to +1 the duel.
  • For X reasons, you miss the burst (random CC, passive effect on opponent, teleport etc..).
  • On coremes : you can't put more pressure for the next 5 to 10 seconds, wasting precious time.
  • On mirage : you can still pressure by ambush waiting for the next burst.

I know that you aren't a mesmer main, but it's why mirage is more efficient. (not even talking about point to point mobility.)

Lets not say noobfriendly when you have problems with that term but it rly is common that Chaos and Inspiration are the newbiefriendliest lines with the lowest skill ceiling. When i face a Core Chaosline Mesmer i have more problems with him even in duels than with the same player on Powermirage, simply because with the pure amount of stealth/ higher stealth duration he can too easy bait out defensive cds without outplaying me actively. Then he also has very good sustain when failing, makes him survive long enough for another chance to burst me out of long stealth. As someone tested both builds (and i suck on Powermesmer) and played vs both builds i can say Core Chaosline is way easier to play and harder to play against. Still Mirage is more useful for the team. That is why conquest viability and the lvl of lameness/ low skill ceiling doesn't correlate that much. You have very lame builds on a lot fo classes which are just not the most useful for a specific job in conquest. Not being the best at any role in conquest doesn't automatically mean it is skullful to play or not broken in some aspects. PU is in general an unhealthy mechanic should not exist. I mean why you would disagree to a rework gives Mesmer a trait more useful in PvP than PU but with higher skill ceiling? Just like EM rework would give Mirage one more good trait to choose, instead keeping a broken mechanic nerfed to death, so no one can use it, dead trait... I don't want to nerf only, i more want to rework into healthy mechanic with higher skill ceiling would make Mesmer also more interesting to play, not just nerf to death.

That a Mesmer cannot anticap in stealth doesn't matter it is not the job of that build anyway. I feel like you have no clue how to watch at builds and how to rate builds according to the conquest role it should fill. Also we talked about contribution lvl and i already told you that a glassy roaming dmg dealer still contributes even when kiting/ disengaging/hiding in stealth to lose focus and get an unpredictable attack or rotating (well that counts for all roles in conquest but for roaming builds the most because it is not your job at all to cap/ decap or defend a point).

Should it be me who have a problem with relative arguments like noobfriendly, carrying etc or you who can''t differenciate the purpose of defensive line with the implication it mean, we didn't agree ofc.I don't consider less skilled to make a 1 minute fight because of less damage output and more defensive tools than to do a 20 second fight because of all damage trait taken.As someone who main mesmer since everytime and regulary change builds, I didn't agree about how it is "easy" to fight a powermirage contrary to a core PU mes.PU is a choice of losing damage/boons to have better stealth duration. It's not worth it anymore in WvW thanks to multiple structure and reveal items. And was never good in PvP for the above reasons. What I see is just that you want a gameplay removed because you don't like it (so you consider it "unealthy etc".).And after the Lost time, CI etc discussion where your main arguments was basically the same, and we ended up with 2 dead traits, you will be thankfull to calm down about your "rework" suggestions who destroy the class step by step.

Mesmer didn't anticap but you want to compare stealth versus block. I have no clue about PvP roles and placements ofc, I'm plat3 every season I play because PvP is dead and build carry.PU mantra build isn't even good at roaming +1 ing because as highlithed in shadow vids, burst haven't 100% chances to get a down and mesmer spend half his time channeling his mantra/waiting for next burst while other roamers put constant pressure + some burst spikes.
  1. No, i already said it, he use Chaosline and still has oneshot dmg. That is exactly one point. A build wiht one defensive traitlien should not have oneshot dmg anymore. That is why i say defensive traitlines should have more opportunity costs in dmg. Atm we have a lot of builds like Holo have insane dmg and still high sustain, often even passive.That's the point, he use chaosline and has oneshot dmg time to time while the "norm" in the current environnement with no defensive line is to have constant pressure + burst damage. Basically you drop constant pressure to more defense that's the point.
  2. What is my second point. I don't mind sustain as long as it is mostly active. Most defensive traitlines incl both Mesmers are too passively designed and with a too low skill ceiling. Spamming long stealth never was a skilled or healthy mechanic. I don't mind some stealth but i already explained why removing the need to actively outplay opponents to bait out cds and replace that by simple long stealth duration (what even passively pop boonsustain) leads to a lower skill ceiling. I think that is obviously logical.Ok having some protection uptime/regen from chaos line and rng boons is far under the "passive" effects we have on the current environnement on other class (like perma boon on classic rotation, passive weakness/poison/immobilise on attacks, passive antiCC etc etc.), you can come back until they nerf other tools. Removing the boon from PU will not up the skill ceiling at all (note that with the meh duration, boons from PU basically end at the end of stealth, you clearly can't use it to stack them.), it will just make mesmer getting powned more by random damage or CC aoe.You are just whinning about the wrong thing just because you don't like it. And your logic is just the way to make one more dead trait.
  3. I compared steath vs block only in terms of contribution because that was what you were talking about. A roaming +1 build still can contribute quite fine during being stealthed for already explained reasons. During a duel pointhold build cannot rly do the job when stealthing in a duelfight and lose the cap. Means for a roaming class stealth doesn't prevent match contribution.When was the last time we saw a stealth build on mat because you say crazy things. Even during PoF thief smoke combo was more to comboing with teamate than to play a stealth based build.
  4. It is not my fault that Anet reworked them in a bad way (the new CI trait maybe isn't even that bad). But both traits were clearly broken in old version.You just participe on the nerf fiesta while not proposing viable alternative.The new CI trait is bad and bugged and they were considered broken only because player don't adapt their builds to face new things. I'm really sad that we hadn't mat this summer to highlight how it's easy to counter old CI builds once you know it exist.

@bravan.3876 said:I get that both of you like to play Chaosline and for that don't want to get it nerfed but that Chaosline (in particular PU on a oneshot build) makes playing Mesmer clearly easier, more forgiving and is an unhealthy mechanic is so obvious that i don't understand why we have a dispute about that. We can argue about if it needs nerfs or not, i am ok with you both disagree in that point but that Chaosline has a lower skill ceiling than builds without it is rly a fact. I already agreed that Chaosline Mesmer is not more broken compared to other Metabuilds but that is no argument, i would nerf/ rework all meta builds/ most defensive traitlines from all classes too though.But it feels like we turn around in a circle. As said i am totally fine with ppl disagree with me about if it needs a nerf or rework. Just let it keep like that.Yeah and I get that you don't like chaosline so you consider it as cheesy, lower ceiling and so on. I have a dispute about that because each time you ask for a nerf :1) You don't understand the synergy traits has with other traits/skills.2) You give fucking subjective arguments like "cheesy", "it's obvious", "I argued",... on 15+ lines post who didn't gave it more weight.3) skill start by playing efficients builds. A domination/duel/illusion direct damage build ins't viable for example.4) You don't give credible alternative/rework suggestions.
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@viquing.8254 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:2) You give kitten subjective arguments like "cheesy", "it's obvious", "I argued",... on 15+ lines post who didn't gave it more weight.4) You don't give credible alternative/rework suggestions.

That's what everyone tells him but he still doesn't get it lol

INB4 he says for the 30th time "I already made my arguments and I'm right and you're wrong."

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This would have been a far more constructive thread if people had argued around the classes performance, instead of who has the biggest e-peen.

As far as anything having been proven, I can't comment on that since I'm not experienced enough to know how big the serious pvp community on EU is.

Only this much: almost making it to the top hardly seems like strong solid proof that a build is overpowered.

Hell I made P1 this season (I'm not even pvp rank 40) and I didn't even try. Anything sub P2, an experinced player should destroy, no matter the build.

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@"shadowpass.4236" said:Actually I think this was my highest on EU.

1675 rating, rank 62

Solo que only core mantra mesmer. If I had a semi-competant duo that could at least hold a 1v1, would've gotten top 30 a lot more easily/sooner.

But yeah I've proven my point. I took a glass build I had zero prior experience on and solo climbed from around 1440 at the lowest point to nearly 1700 in a little more than a week. The build is clearly efficient at climbing alone, and would be even more so with a duo. Anyone who said that this build can't function on EU because everyone dodges the bursts and will easily focus me so I can't do anything was wrong. There are around 70, unedited, games in a row that prove otherwise.

I have a few more games I could upload. In 2 or 3 of them, I won 1v1 and 1v2 against the rank 9 player at the time on EU but we'll see how much time I have between school and AAU.Friend of mine shown me this.... and I'm facepalming hard.So, highest rating you ever had on EU? I heard you are always top30 when you play with your left foot?Isnt that your one of the most played classes? Its not when you need it ?:)With such an OP build such poor results, in a game where top players alrdy gone ? Top 62 after 70 games begging to be carried when you lost and had no impact on the games? And when your team carried without your participation "ez win vs flandre sinid" despite being food for flandre and not being able to oneshot him, and being proud that sinid were perma 30% health all the time without cds.After few random games I seen you had poor impact on the result, a lot of missed "bursts" that you claim to impossible to NOT land. "Thief doesnt counter mesmer look staff monkey cant catch me! shows vallun lol" but dying each time d/p DAREDEVIL gets on you, completely random ones.If anything proven so the game is R.I.P .You pretend to be one of the best players left in the game and this supposed to be a proof that build is monstrously OP but instead you proven that you arent good as you claim to be and that build isnt good enough to carry YOU. drops the mic and gone to play way better gamesEdit: you say you started at 1440 rating? Why your first game awards you 12 points to 1509 ? Seems like you started with 1497. How many times I caught your lie ?

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