The unnecessary complications of in-combat swapping..

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Court.7180" said:even to implement an option to somewhat automate certain functions wouldn't steal from the games success.andI want to see my friends play harder content and be GOOD at it not because the game is "dumbed" downYou say you want combat automated and try to claim you don't want it dumbed down.Ridiculous.

[Court.7180]

We all spam abilities, that's the name of the game.. heck the entire game is basically who can zerg the fastest to avoid any other strategy besides zerg spamming dps race abilities.. Mechanically challenged, physically challenged, either way i'm focusing on people who feel the button mashing can get a bit extreme because of the added necessity of swapping to a whole other set of buttons to mash.. we can all pretend that its no bother and if you feel it is you can play another game blah blah.. but anyone who has played other mmos know that its not how many buttons you mash or how fast, its about the actual button you push.and @mindcircus.1506 the whole thing is automated, otherwise you would be making your own macros like old school mmorpg's or even typing out movements like text based rpgs

[Rogue.4756]

@Court.7180 said:But as an option you don't have to play with casual settings.. it just makes it more accessible for others.. im not saying lets hardcode the game to EZ mode.. im just saying i want some of the friends I've made in here that are scared to death of raiding because of the complexity/difficulty of the bar being so high that unless you push a million keys your going to hinder more than benefit the group.. no one really wants to be carried.

So basically, they want a gimmie instead of learning the mechanics like everyone else. Waaaaaaaa it's too hard.

[Court.7180]

@Rogue.4756 said:

So basically, they want a gimmie instead of learning the mechanics like everyone else. Waaaaaaaa it's too hard.

I think your confusing learning the mechanics with being able to actually perform the mechanics.. To know that as a weaver i am capable of attaining some of the highest dps in the game, but im having trouble attaining it due to the fact i can't press the buttons i know that i need to press fast enough for whatever reason , is completely different from me just randomly button mashing and hoping for what the class is capable of.

..And because i am addressing the individual responses doesn't mean my continuity on the discussion is compromised.. I am still focused on the combat swapping mechanics being overwhelming for some and how implementing a option for easier execution would be more beneficial than not. I appreciate your taking time to respond to my comment.

[Seera.5916]

@Court.7180 said:

@Rogue.4756 said:

So basically, they want a gimmie instead of learning the mechanics like everyone else. Waaaaaaaa it's too hard.

I think your confusing learning the mechanics with being able to actually perform the mechanics.. To know that as a weaver i am capable of attaining some of the highest dps in the game, but im having trouble attaining it due to the fact i can't press the buttons i

know

that i need to press fast enough for whatever reason , is completely different from me just randomly button mashing and hoping for what the class is capable of.

So those of us who are able to do so are supposed to have to be satisfied with less complex combat just because a minority of players can't?

Macros don't solve the problem for those you are arguing for. They will still not be able to perform at the same potential as those without disabilities on average.

This game is very very forgiving and people do not need to operate at 100% max DPS on their class in order to be successful in this game. Even in raids. Players who can't reach maximum DPS are not left unable to complete the game's content. They may need to find static groups rather than rely on LFG's if their disability is bad enough - and that is not a bad thing.

The cost to do your solution would also be too great for what benefits are received.

[Bladestrom.6425]

One of the great pleasures we get In GW2 is the potential for skill complexity and the satisfaction from mastering a complex class. GW2 does not punish you for not being able to master this complexity, ad you can happily play without min maxing.Games like wow have dumbed down and dumbed down and as a result gameplay consists of dull rotations with macros to sync cool downs. Careful what you wish for op.

[Hugs.1856]

Two points :

1/ how do you define skill?2/ how hard should raids be?

1/ Having lightning reflexes with nimble fingers is a way to define skill, what you'd call mechanical skills. Having a vision of the combat is another aspect. Knowing the perfect timing of the mechanics is another one. And so forth.

Some classes are more or less skewed towards a particular type of skill. I think it's a healthy Game design decision because it gives each profession a distinctive feel and caters to different tastes.

If you feel (rightly) that elementalist puts too much of an emphasis on mechanical skills, then you should consider another profession more suited to your playstyle, perhaps warrior or necromancer.

2/ Since you seem to be talking about raids, then how hard do you think raids should be? I personally don't find anything wrong with pushing players to be good in all aspects of the game - mechanical, vision, mechanisms - for what should be considered as the ultimate challenge.

Especially considering that since the power creep of pof and players getting more experienced, raids became much more accessible. So the "push to be mechanically good" is quite soft to say the least.

[Court.7180]

Please read carefully what is written.. because a lot of you are just responding to what you think is being said, instead of what was actually said even though you quote them. To put hard definitions like "disability" on not being able to perform like someone else is extreme in this case.. We all have different skill sets and capabilities.. Whats so bad about an OPTION, (key word: "option", not forced on everyone, since some of you keep putting words in my mouth) so that others less capable can enjoy playing a game where skill and SUCCESS is ultimately determined by mechanics execution.. and on the flip side what if ANET was to just one day say: "this game is too EZ because the, falsely claimed majority, think we should have to press more buttons" will people rejoice or shift sides of the debate then? When is too much too much and enough enough?

If more people can have success in this game, the better in my opinion. But the popular individualistic view of todays society says otherwise. Success should be determined in this game by ones work and determination, not solely on whether they can meet what might be impossible requirements for them. And please spare everyone the extreme scenarios, your not losing your precious elitism by considering others difficulties. We were all noobs at one point.

[Operator.2590]

@"Court.7180" said:Please read carefully what is written.. because a lot of you are just responding to what you think is being said, instead of what was actually said even though you quote them. To put hard definitions like "disability" on not being able to perform like someone else is extreme in this case.. We all have different skill sets and capabilities.. Whats so bad about an OPTION, (key word: "option", not forced on everyone, since some of you keep putting words in my mouth) so that others less capable can enjoy playing a game where skill and SUCCESS is ultimately determined by mechanics execution.. and on the flip side what if ANET was to just one day say: "this game is too EZ because the, falsely claimed majority, think we should have to press more buttons" will people rejoice or shift sides of the debate then? When is too much too much and enough enough?

If more people can have success in this game, the better in my opinion. But the popular individualistic view of todays society says otherwise. Success should be determined in this game by ones work and determination, not solely on whether they can meet what might be impossible requirements for them. And please spare everyone the extreme scenarios, your not losing your precious elitism by considering others difficulties. We were all noobs at one point.

Now you're just sounding like "today's society" of participation awards, celebrating every mundane achievement, and everyone deserving to feel "special". Again--your heart's in the right place, as is all those sentiments. But it's just not needed--especially in a game where, once again, the point is skill. That's the point of any game--skill. Otherwise this wouldn't be a game, it would be some giant online social "choose your own adventure" book, like those tell-tale games. There's no skill involved, you just push a button and watch the story--and it's still marginally considered a "game."

That's like trying to say they should change the rules of Chess to make it easier / more enjoyable for people who are bad at it. It's a game--the point is to, essentially, "git gud" (even though I hate when it's put in that condescending way). But the sentiment is correct--yes, you're supposed to get better at it, as that's the point of progressing in the game and taking on harder and harder content.

So no--there shouldn't be an "easy button" for harder content. It's just that plain and simple--it's harder for a reason.

[Court.7180]

I concede to your point.. The unfortunate reality seems to be some will just never "git gud" and therefore miss out on all "that heavenly glory" to quote bruce lee. If anyone missed that its because the boy was focusing on the finger, which some players do. I just don't see why harder has to be even harder because of button pushing.

[Dante.1508]

The only time i weapon swap is for ranged and melee options.. And due to how annoying enemies are in later GW2 content i never really use Melee.. That said Engineers and Elementalists are forbidden from weapon swapping just because...

Tyria core gameplay was the perfect bar for GW2, the expansions were just over the top for many customers.. I spend way more time in the core maps because the expansions are not fun to do at all and the living stories are atrocious difficulty wise.

@Operator.2590 said:

@"Court.7180" said:Please read carefully what is written.. because a lot of you are just responding to what you think is being said, instead of what was actually said even though you quote them. To put hard definitions like "disability" on not being able to perform like someone else is extreme in this case.. We all have different skill sets and capabilities.. Whats so bad about an OPTION, (key word: "option", not forced on everyone, since some of you keep putting words in my mouth) so that others less capable can enjoy playing a game where skill and SUCCESS is ultimately determined by mechanics execution.. and on the flip side what if ANET was to just one day say: "this game is too EZ because the, falsely claimed majority, think we should have to press more buttons" will people rejoice or shift sides of the debate then? When is too much too much and enough enough?

If more people can have success in this game, the better in my opinion. But the popular individualistic view of todays society says otherwise. Success should be determined in this game by ones work and determination, not solely on whether they can meet what might be impossible requirements for them. And please spare everyone the extreme scenarios, your not losing your precious elitism by considering others difficulties. We were all noobs at one point.

Now you're just sounding like "today's society" of participation awards, celebrating every mundane achievement, and everyone deserving to feel "special". Again--your heart's in the right place, as is all those sentiments. But it's just not needed--especially in a game where, once again, the point is skill. That's the point of any game--skill. Otherwise this wouldn't be a

game

, it would be some giant online social "choose your own adventure" book, like those tell-tale games. There's no skill involved, you just push a button and watch the story--and it's still

marginally

considered a "game."

That's like trying to say they should change the rules of Chess to make it easier / more enjoyable for people who are bad at it. It's a game--the point is to,

essentially

, "git gud" (even though I hate when it's put in that condescending way). But the sentiment is correct--yes, you're supposed to get better at it, as that's the point of progressing in the game and taking on harder and harder content.

So no--there shouldn't be an "easy button" for

harder

content. It's just that plain and simple--it's harder for a reason.

Chess is not hard to play at all.. It requires zero hand eye coordination and twitch skills and is only complex due to how far you think ahead strategy wise, even a disabled person can be a master at chess.. But not GW2...

We have supposedly advanced beyond petty things like virtual achievements and fake difficulty as well.. Well some us have...

[Rakan Buuyon.8576]

@"Court.7180" said:I concede to your point.. The unfortunate reality seems to be some will just never "git gud" and therefore miss out on all "that heavenly glory" to quote bruce lee. If anyone missed that its because the boy was focusing on the finger, which some players do. I just don't see why harder has to be even harder because of button pushing.

Then tell them to play thief or warrior.

There are options in this game for less complex classes. Weapon swaps aren't even that complex. It's once every 9 seconds. It's hardly like it requires jumping back and forth every other skill.

Find keybinds that are comfortable for you, spend time on the raid golem. That's really all people need to do.

[yusayu.3629]

Rotations for many classes are already pretty easy to perform.

If you don't want to play with multiple weapons or hotbars, then don't. But then raiding in this game is probably not for you and you might be happier with a "stand still and cast"-game with GC.

[Operator.2590]

You can still raid without being Hardcore squeeze-out-every-last-itty-bitty-percent-of-optimised-DPS, worrying about 1.5% variations in uptime, squeezing out that last .005% increase in damage potential. Like I said--just find a chill group (or start your own) that focuses on having fun instead of trying to be some US top 100 guild that goes for "world firsts" (which isn't even as big a deal on GW2 as it would be on other games--but still an achievement nonetheless.) I don't even go that hardcore with my raiding and I still have plenty of fun with plenty of clears. You can parse 33k+ DPS all you want on Raid Golem--doesn't mean shit if you're dead for 80% of the encounter since you died to mechanics.

Play what you want--just play it well. I too only swap between melee and range weapons when I absolutely need to--otherwise I stay on one set, and still pull top 3 (or just top in general).

[thepenmonster.3621]

@"Court.7180" said:And no, the solution isn't "play a less demanding class" all classes should be accessible and everyone should be able to do well at it.

While there's no neon sign on them saying so, the professions are the game's difficulty modes. They just have a bit more fine tuning than Easy-Normal-Hard.

@"Donari.5237" said:If you don't want to have two sets of skills to remember, I'm pretty sure you can equip the exact same type of weapon in each slot.

This is good advice. One weapon main hand and one off hand is a something the devs planned for given all of the "on weapon swap" sigils. Anyway, I play a tanky hammer scrapper w gyros. The F buttons are for when everything else is on cooldown. Maybe I'm not the guy to be talking to about difficulty and rotations.

[Seera.5916]

@"Court.7180" said:Please read carefully what is written.. because a lot of you are just responding to what you think is being said, instead of what was actually said even though you quote them. To put hard definitions like "disability" on not being able to perform like someone else is extreme in this case.. We all have different skill sets and capabilities.. Whats so bad about an OPTION, (key word: "option", not forced on everyone, since some of you keep putting words in my mouth) so that others less capable can enjoy playing a game where skill and SUCCESS is ultimately determined by mechanics execution.. and on the flip side what if ANET was to just one day say: "this game is too EZ because the, falsely claimed majority, think we should have to press more buttons" will people rejoice or shift sides of the debate then? When is too much too much and enough enough?

If more people can have success in this game, the better in my opinion. But the popular individualistic view of todays society says otherwise. Success should be determined in this game by ones work and determination, not solely on whether they can meet what might be impossible requirements for them. And please spare everyone the extreme scenarios, your not losing your precious elitism by considering others difficulties. We were all noobs at one point.

The thing is, your options you're talking about are mutually exclusive. You can't have DPS be the same between weapon swap and not weapon swap within the same class.

If an easy button was put in, it would give players currently operating at max DPS when they make no mistakes in their rotation want to switch those because it's less complex and therefore less prone to errors but still giving the same DPS. Which means players would end up forced to use that easy button in order to not get kicked from PUG groups. Turning your option into a requirement.

We can be against your idea and against ANet making it more complicated. Because it's just fine to say that the complexity is just fine as it is right now.

Plus, you already have the option of not swapping your weapon. It's not meta and it's not top DPS but you can do all of the content in this game successfully with a build that does not weapon swap. You just have to find a group that's willing to accept that.

Yes, we were all noobs once. But those of us against your idea also put in the time or are putting in the time to reach our max potential. And we're just fine if that max potential isn't exactly max DPS. We're just fine failing at doing something. Because we learn from failures. I personally think we learn more from failing than we do from succeeding. It's a really really really good feeling to finally be able to defeat an enemy that you weren't able to do before. And your easy button will rob that from people.

[Goettel.4389]

Love my elementalist.

[Operator.2590]

@"Dante.1508" said:Chess is not hard to play at all.. It requires zero hand eye coordination and twitch skills and is only complex due to how far you think ahead strategy wise, even a disabled person can be a master at chess.. But not GW2...Think you kinda missed the point I was trying to make there, but alright? Dexterity for mashing buttons isn't the only thing that can be considered a skill--mental acuity is equally a skill as any. The world isn't measured on "twitch skills", and trying to use that as a judgement on Chess--a game of strategy and mental prowess--is just kinda silly. Think you focused on the wrong part of my point there buddy.

[Court.7180]

"Easy button" is a extreme description, no one said lets put everything under one button except the extremists..I strongly disagree that being able to perform a few tasks a little more conveniently would EVER remove the value or joy of accomplishment, nor how it would dramatically dumb down anything when almost every battle involves mechanics other than how many buttons you can hit in succession. Not a single person here can say that if their rotation involved a few less keys they could coast through raid and fractal or any other game mechanic.. In fact, those same mechanics are designed to bring the majority of difficulty/challenge. There's been many a time in fractals where jumping tripped me up, but rarely a time where I didn't get maximum potential dmg output. Gw2 Puts the old Tank and Spank concept to rest with its creative solutions to the mundane battle mechanics of old (yes some fights are still T&S, we know!).. Anet would have no trouble implementing other means of difficulty besides juggling unnecessary amounts of button combination. If i wanna play a class, my major hurdle shouldn't be whether or not i can memorize a combination of skills, it should be whether or not I can strategically utilize the best skill for the situation at hand.

[Dante.1508]

@Operator.2590 said:

@"Dante.1508" said:Chess is not hard to play at all.. It requires zero hand eye coordination and twitch skills and is only complex due to how far you think ahead strategy wise, even a disabled person can be a master at chess.. But not GW2...Think you kinda missed the point I was trying to make there, but alright? Dexterity for mashing buttons isn't the only thing that can be considered a skill--mental acuity is equally a skill as any. The world isn't measured on "twitch skills", and trying to use that as a judgement on Chess--a game of strategy and

mental

prowess--is just kinda silly. Think you focused on the wrong part of my point there buddy.

GW2 is 100% mashing buttons and twitch skills, with a lot of luck thrown in, zero strategy and zero skill..

[Operator.2590]

@Dante.1508 said:GW2 is 100% mashing buttons and twitch skills, with a lot of luck thrown in, zero strategy and zero skill..

And there’s one of my lol’s of the day. Missed the point again, and the rest of that? Whatever ya say bud—not sure why you’re even playing it then if that’s what ya think. To each their own? That, or just a troll—either way, interest lost.

[kamykaze.5904]

You know you can work on your abilities, right?If you have trouble remembering stuff, do it until you certainly know it.If you have trouble pressing buttons, think of a different and perhaps more logical key setup.And if you give up because it's 'oh so difficult', the will to even try wasn't really there to begin with.Implementing an easier way to achieve the same results wouldn't work btw., because people tend to take the path of least resistance and even if you're able to pull off the difficulties, why bother with it, when you can do the same with less effort?Anyway, there are ways to deal with such minor difficulties and if you, or your friends are interested enough, you'll figure it out, because this game isn't that hard really.You don't have to fly over your keyboard at lightning speed to play well, not even with an elementalist, but as with pretty much everything, you have to practice.

@Court.7180 said:If i wanna play a class, my major hurdle shouldn't be whether or not i can memorize a combination of skills, it should be whether or not I can strategically utilize the best skill for the situation at hand.Doesn't make a difference. You have to know what your skills do, and where they are anyway. If you don't, you fail. If you do, you can memorize a couple of combinations as well.Honestly, to me it sounds more like someone doesn't want to work out the mechanics, or is too young/old to do so.

[Ultramex.1506]

@"kamykaze.5904" said:You know you can work on your abilities, right?If you have trouble remembering stuff, do it until you certainly know it.If you have trouble pressing buttons, think of a different and perhaps more logical key setup.And if you give up because it's 'oh so difficult', the will to even try wasn't really there to begin with.Implementing an easier way to achieve the same results wouldn't work btw., because people tend to take the path of least resistance and even if you're able to pull off the difficulties, why bother with it, when you can do the same with less effort?Anyway, there are ways to deal with such minor difficulties and if you, or your friends are interested enough, you'll figure it out, because this game isn't that hard really.You don't have to fly over your keyboard at lightning speed to play well, not even with an elementalist, but as with pretty much everything, you have to practice.Doesn't make a difference. You have to know what your skills do, and where they are anyway. If you don't, you fail. If you do, you can memorize a couple of combinations as well.Honestly, to me it sounds more like someone doesn't want to work out the mechanics, or is too young/old to do so.

Remind me of those "Story toooo harrrdd!!" thread, my friend don't play video game that much and this is her first mmo, what did she do? Played fractal and PVP, didn't go to forum to complaints.

[zealex.9410]

Personally i wouldnt mind if we instead had like 20 or 30 buttons to include all skills instead of the toggles and the swaps.

[Rasimir.6239]

@"Court.7180" said:We all have different skill sets and capabilities.. Whats so bad about an OPTION, (key word: "option", not forced on everyone, since some of you keep putting words in my mouth) so that others less capable can enjoy playing a game where skill and SUCCESS is ultimately determined by mechanics execution..That option already exists. It's called "play a class more suited to your abilities".

That said, I'm pretty sure I fall right into your "mechanically challenged" category of players. I never had the best reflexes to begin with (actually way below-average even during my early years), and living in this body for close to 50 years hasn't improved them at all. That doesn't keep me from playing elementalist in raids or t4 fractals with friends. Do I perform worse than "the best" young people that spend hours raiding each week? Of course I do. Do I underperform and just get carried? Absolutely not. I bring decent damage, but that's not why my friends take me along instead of a random "mechanically perfect" ele from lfg. There's a lot more involved in a team effort than only each individual outputting a perfect rotation.

To perform decent enough on elementalist to hold your own, a good bit of reflex and quick uptake is helpful, but in no way required. If you really like the class and want to play it, practice is the substitute you are looking for. This does however require you and your group to accept that you might take a good bit longer than a young and/or more dexterous person. Don't expect to put out a perfect rotation with perfect awareness of the encounter mechanics on the first, third, or possibly even tenth try. Practice the build and rotation you want to perform in different circumstances. Most of open world pve is forgiving enough that you'll be able to play it with a raid build and practice your rotations as well as how to get out of screw-ups in all kinds of different situations. Then practice the raid encounters themselves, and don't worry if you screw up your precious rotation the first few times. Eventually you'll get used to both rotation and event mechanics and find things suddenly go together for you without having to conciously think about every key press or positioning move or target switch any longer.

And if you don't want to practice to the point where you are decent on your class of choice (been there, done that), then my first suggestion still stands: choose another class that suits you more. This game is great in that the classes offer very different playstyles, thus almost guaranteeing that there's one that works better for you than some of the others.