Absolutely wasted 21 bucks on Black Lion Keys (salty sob story)

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:The amount is irrelevant. Any amount of money is wasted by default when spent on gambling.

It's like throwing money into a fire and complaining because they got burnt.

No, it isn't. You spend money on gambling for the 'thrill' of gambling, just as if you paid $5.00 to ride a roller coaster.

The mistake is thinking that you are spending money on gambling in order to win something; that's just the cherry on the sundae.

If you decide to gamble you are making that mistake by definition. Nobody gambles with absolutely no expectation to win anything. If that was the case nobody would gamble, as it would be an identical action to throwing your money away. The expectation is always there, even sub-consciously. It's that expectation that creates the "thrill" of the process, no matter how small your chances are.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@yann.1946 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:The amount is irrelevant. Any amount of money is wasted by default when spent on gambling.

It's like throwing money into a fire and complaining because they got burnt.

No, it isn't. You spend money on gambling for the 'thrill' of gambling, just as if you paid $5.00 to ride a roller coaster.

The mistake is thinking that you are spending money on gambling in order to win something; that's just the cherry on the sundae.

100% agree. If people actually realise this their would be no problem.

There would still be a problem, though you might not see it as a problem. What problem? The problem of companies using psychology to milk consumers rather than providing things people want at a price that people will pay if it's not disguised behind a random mechanic. All consumers lose when we let companies get away with stuff like this.

If thrill and anticipation is all the gamble boxes are about, then ecto gambling ought to provide that. If it doesn't, and I can believe it doesn't for a lot of folks, then the payoff is what drives the thrill. The payoff is certainly what drives most of the revenue gain, not the thrill.

Don't believe me? Ask yourself this. Would Las Vegas still be a gambling destination if it was just about providing a thrill, with no payoff?

[yann.1946]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:The amount is irrelevant. Any amount of money is wasted by default when spent on gambling.

It's like throwing money into a fire and complaining because they got burnt.

No, it isn't. You spend money on gambling for the 'thrill' of gambling, just as if you paid $5.00 to ride a roller coaster.

The mistake is thinking that you are spending money on gambling in order to win something; that's just the cherry on the sundae.

100% agree. If people actually realise this their would be no problem.

There would still be a problem, though

you

might not see it as a problem. What problem? The problem of companies using psychology to milk consumers rather than providing things people want at a price that people will pay if it's not disguised behind a random mechanic.

All consumers lose

when we let companies get away with stuff like this.

If thrill and anticipation is all the gamble boxes are about, then ecto gambling ought to provide that. If it doesn't, and I can believe it doesn't for a lot of folks, then the payoff is what drives the thrill. The payoff is

certainly

what drives most of the revenue gain, not the thrill.

Don't believe me? Ask yourself this. Would Las Vegas still be a gambling destination if it was just about providing a thrill, with no payoff?

You do realise entertainment parks are that right?Trill without the payout.

Personally i believe that using psychological tricks in marketing is not bad in any way.Where do you draw the line for what psychological tricks are allowed? or do you consider smiling waiters also as bad?

And the point earlier was that people should start considering lootboxes only for the trill. If everyone realised this then they would only serve that purpose.

[Omega.6801]

@"Fellwitch.4536" said:I thought "Hey, I will put in some money and support the developers and keep the game going, and get a nice skin while I am at it."

You might have thought the above, but you're wrong with the "and get a nice skin" part. Keys and chests are gambling, you will never be sure on what you get. Can't blame ANet for you not understanding the product you purchased.

[mindcircus.1506]

Cool story

[Ol Nik.2518]

@yann.1946 said:You do realise entertainment parks are that right?Trill without the payout.

Have entertainment parks replaced casinos?

Personally i believe that using psychological tricks in marketing is not bad in any way.Where do you draw the line for what psychological tricks are allowed? or do you consider smiling waiters also as bad?

This is a straw man argument. Check your local laws and regulations to see if they agree with you. I would suggest starting with advertising, contract, and consumer protection laws.

And the point earlier was that people should start considering lootboxes only for the trill. If everyone realised this then they would only serve that purpose.

People also should avoid impulsive buys, should plan their budgets, and should start saving for retirement early. There are plenty of other things people should but rarely do.

[sevenDEADLY.5281]

Converting $21 worth of gems into gold would give you MORE than enough gold to just buy the skin off the TP.

[yann.1946]

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@yann.1946 said:You do realise entertainment parks are that right?Trill without the payout.

Have entertainment parks replaced casinos?

No, that's also not the point.Just pointing out that people trillseek without the payout.

Personally i believe that using psychological tricks in marketing is not bad in any way.Where do you draw the line for what psychological tricks are allowed? or do you consider smiling waiters also as bad?

This is a straw man argument. Check your local laws and regulations to see if they agree with you. I would suggest starting with advertising, contract, and consumer protection laws.

As far as I know my local laws do agree with me. What is not allowed though is lying(false advertisement etc.)

Gambling is regulated, but because of the addictive properties. And situations where gambling is used as advertisement are almost never regulated. (kinder surprise, mtg cards etc.)

And the point earlier was that people should start considering lootboxes only for the trill. If everyone realised this then they would only serve that purpose.

People also should avoid impulsive buys, should plan their budgets, and should start saving for retirement early. There are plenty of other things people should but rarely do.

This I absolutely agree with. People will never completely start acting rationaly.

But what I have the most problems with though is that this discussion is do polarising that topics like informing the population about the risks almost never get brought up.While for smoking this is already standard practice.

People are most of the time either for or against it completely. And no real solutions get sought.

[kharmin.7683]

Cool. Devloving another thread into a gambling argument.

:: gets popcorn ::

[Fozzie.5370]

@SinisterSlay.6973 said:So exactly like gambling

@Sobx.1758 said:This just in: if you gamble, you might not win! :open_mouth:

@"Operator.2590" said:You picked the wrong place to complain about BLC gambling. Not really sure why you thought it'd be a good idea to post about it here either. Or post about it in general. It's gambling.

Sure this has mentioned before but I guess Anet has us by the balls, since strictly speaking they can say its not entirely gambling as each player is "Guaranteed" i) Black Lion Statuette, ii) Evon Gnashblade Trick or Treat Bag - thereafter it is a gamble, but I'm sure that's how Anet would defend themselves saying its not fully gambling. Seems legit: 125 gems for a guaranteed Statuette x1, Trick or Treat Bag and if you really lucky a Revive Orb and TP to friend so totally worth wasting 125 gems on....!

@OP I learnt long ago, if there is something you want from BLC chest: Never buy keys, or even just never buy keys ever period. Its so much more economical as everyone says, just use the Gems to buy the gold. 2K Gems would have got you ~ 500 Gold. You could even afford one of the Permanent Contracts from TP with 500 Gold (Repair or Merchant Permanent Contracts), and I would say you'd statistically need a massive amount more than 21 keys to land one of those contracts.

[Forty Keks.9620]

@"Fellwitch.4536" said:To be more specific, I bought 2800 Gems.Bought the glider & backpack combo for 700 (NO COMPLAINTS HERE I GOT WHAT I WANTED)

Then bought 21 keys for 2100 Gems.

After seeing the splash announcement on the Black Market screen this morning, that we could get new Halloween-skinned items for Black Lion Claim Tickets, I thought "Hey, I will put in some money and support the developers and keep the game going, and get a nice skin while I am at it."

Do you know how many Black Lion Claim Tickets I got?

0

Do you know how many Black Lion scrap things I got?

6-7. I already had two I believe, thus bringing my total to 9.

How many scrap items = one Black Lion Claim Ticket? 10.

So basically, 21 bucks down the drain, didn't get a single good item.

I can understand trying to make money off of this stuff, but frankly, I got pretty scr3w3d on this deal.I had absolutely NO problem spending the money in the first place, but I guess my assumption I would actually get one of those weapon skins was completely in la-la-land.

Lesson learned. How likely am I going to be in the future to spend money and buy gems?

0

that's what happens when you trust a company owned by the chinese to not milk you for cash.

[Sobx.1758]

@Greg.7086 said:

@SinisterSlay.6973 said:So exactly like gambling

@Sobx.1758 said:This just in: if you gamble, you might not win! :open_mouth:

@"Operator.2590" said:You picked the

wrong

place to complain about BLC gambling. Not really sure

why

you thought it'd be a good idea to post about it here either. Or post about it in general.

It's gambling.

Sure this has mentioned before but I guess Anet has us by the balls, since strictly speaking they can say its not entirely gambling as each player is "Guaranteed" i) Black Lion Statuette, ii) Evon Gnashblade Trick or Treat Bag - thereafter it is a gamble, but I'm sure that's how Anet would defend themselves saying its not fully gambling. Seems legit: 125 gems for a guaranteed Statuette x1, Trick or Treat Bag and if you really lucky a Revive Orb and TP to friend so totally worth wasting 125 gems on....!

It seems you're trying to take it from the legal stanpoint, while what I (and probably the others mentioning it too) meant by saying it was: you know it's gambling and it's gambling because you most probably WON'T come out on top. Nobody has anyone by the balls, nobody forces your hand -just don't gamble if you're not prepared to lose. That was what I meant when I wrote it.

Now, should loot boxes (so gambling) be forbidden in games? I think they should, I hate this practice and it's pretty stupid it's still legal. But I also don't think it's relevant in this particular thread.

@OP I learnt long ago, if there is something you want from BLC chest: Never buy keys, or even just never buy keys ever period. Its so much more economical as everyone says, just use the Gems to buy the gold. 2K Gems would have got you ~ 500 Gold. You could even afford one of the Permanent Contracts from TP with 500 Gold (Repair or Merchant Permanent Contracts), and I would say you'd statistically need a massive amount more than 21 keys to land one of those contracts.

True.

[Elyssandariel.2679]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@"Fellwitch.4536" said:... but I guess my assumption I would actually get one of those weapon skins was completely in la-la-land.

Yes, this assumption was a mistake. Congratulations. You have now seen just how "surprise mechanics" (aka gamble boxes) work.

Be grateful you didn't fall for the other assumptions: the gambler's fallacy that you are due for a change of luck; and the sunk-cost fallacy that you should continue to pour money into getting the desired item so that the initial money was not "wasted."

Lesson learned. How likely am I going to be in the future to spend money and buy gems?

0

Randulf is correct. As long as people buy keys (either with gems or gold), and as long as laws don't interfere, gaming companies will continue to milk consumers with these boxes. I don't even buy BL weapon skins on the TP anymore, because even that supports the system. While I would buy a skin I like at a price I considered reasonable, apparently the "what the market will bear" price is not enough, and I'm not part of ANet's target market.

I just want to take the time to appreciate your psychology here. Those fallacies are straight-up murder to your wallet. Thank you for posting about them!

[Ashen.2907]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:The amount is irrelevant. Any amount of money is wasted by default when spent on gambling.

It's like throwing money into a fire and complaining because they got burnt.

No, it isn't. You spend money on gambling for the 'thrill' of gambling, just as if you paid $5.00 to ride a roller coaster.

The mistake is thinking that you are spending money on gambling in order to win something; that's just the cherry on the sundae.

This.

You spend money buying a game for the enjoyment of the experience, not because you expect to somehow profit from it. If you dont enjoy the gamble for its own sake...dont do it.

[Fozzie.5370]

@"Sobx.1758" said:-just don't gamble if you're not prepared to lose. That was what I meant when I wrote it.

^^ that's good advice, actually the way I was brought up as a kid was "Only ever gamble what you can afford to lose"...but it actually took me to waste a few weeks pocket money on slot machines for this to finally sink in: And luckily the lesson stayed with me.

Well yes I was attempting to address the legality: I meant it's the 2 guaranteed items that could make it a grey area in terms of 100% gambling, but in all honesty I really don't know enough about the legal technicalities here. In a few other games I've played it is different as: There are no guaranteed items in their loot box variants: It's a completely 100% blind "reward" thus 100% gamble of what you will receive. But anyway this is all probably irrelevant to the thread in question and I totally agree with you: I hate these boxes and wish they were banned. I hate the fact that such boxes prey on addictive personality players in the hope of landing a one of the best loots.

Also @Fellwitch.4536 I really wouldn't be concerned too much about wasting 21 bucks. This is a very trivial amount over the time span you will probably play the game and if you compared if you played a subscription based game that amount might cover you for just a couple of months if that, so it's no big loss.

[Runecrest.8940]

Well with the statuette is not a complete loss. I have been there but worse. I wanted the Exalted Mantle, got nothing and they took forever to put it at the statuette vendor. It is normal...BUT what makes me salty is when a random person inmap say. "Oh Got a random key and the epic exclusive item with it on 1st try. nice. " That is when videogames cause violence. XD

[Obtena.7952]

I don't see the problem.

Just because you didn't get what you wanted doesn't mean you got nothing of value. Frankly, I think that this is EXACTLY the path Anet want people to take. It's way cheaper to just convert your gems to gold and buy what you want than it is to play RNG on chests.

[whoeverxwins.1279]

I never buy BL keys. I will key farm, and open chests with those, but I don't waste money gambling. Shoot, I don't buy $1 lottery tickets. lol Sometimes I get a great run of luck, and it didn't cost me anything, win or lose. I think I burned through all my luck the day I got 2 backpack/ glider combos, Golden Talon LB skin, and Zaphirah rifle skin all from about 5 chests. Won't get anything else for a year now, I'm sure. Even got a few ticket scraps and bought the rest with statuettes, and got the Mad Realm GS skin I've wanted forever.

I will support the game with about $10/mo in gem purchases to buy special things like mount skins I want, but I buy them outright.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@yann.1946 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

If thrill and anticipation is all the gamble boxes are about, then ecto gambling ought to provide that. If it doesn't, and I can believe it doesn't for a lot of folks, then the payoff is what drives the thrill. The payoff is

certainly

what drives most of the revenue gain, not the thrill.

Don't believe me? Ask yourself this. Would Las Vegas still be a gambling destination if it was just about providing a thrill, with no payoff?

You do realise entertainment parks are that right?Trill without the payout.

Sure, if people just want thrills, they go to Six Flags or Disney. If they want to gamble on a payoff, they go to Las Vegas (or Atlantic City, or wherever). Those destinations would have to retool a lot to become just amusement parks.

Personally i believe that using psychological tricks in marketing is not bad in any way.Where do you draw the line for what psychological tricks are allowed? or do you consider smiling waiters also as bad?

Where do I draw the line? When the psychology is part of a business plan that benefits both the company and the customer, I think that's great. When the psychology benefits the business to the detriment of the customer, I think that's predatory and exploitative.

Waiters are pleasant so that the diners will have a good experience. A good experience makes it more likely the diners will come back again instead of going to the competition's restaurant. That benefits the business. The customers benefit because they enjoy their meal more. The price they pay for that meal may be higher than the joint down the street, but the good customer service doesn't disguise that the prices are higher. The prices are right there on the menu.

Gamble boxes are designed to disguise the average price a customer will end up paying to get an item. This is done to trick people into paying a lot more for things than they would pay if the prices were listed up front. Do you remember Eve Online and Monoclegate? The studio sold a monocle for use in-game at a price point at or around $70. There was a huge furor about the high price. Developers use gamble boxes to get similar revenue from items without setting a high price which will draw player anger. With gamble boxes, some customers benefit by getting the item they want with one or a few keys. Others will spend way more and get nothing.

And the point earlier was that people should start considering lootboxes only for the trill. If everyone realised this then they would only serve that purpose.

Yeah, I got that the first time. It seems you either missed, or didn't like, my rebuttal. In different words, then. If the point of the boxes/keys is only to provide a thrill, then the prize would not be necessary. In gambling, the thrill is largely or completely related to the payoff.

[crepuscular.9047]

were you expecting walk into a casino with 1000 bux and walk out with 1Mill ?

it's your own fault wanting to gamble, please dont come and complain about your own unwise decisiongambling is alway 99.99999..............% of the population will not make any money, only the 0.000000.........1% lucky few will make money

[DeadlySynz.3471]

And this is exactly why I have not (and never will), buy BL keys. Out of all the keys I've used through drops and farming (I think around 150-200 or so since I started playing), nothing good has dropped ever.. at all. If Anet wants me to buy BL keys in hopes of dropping something good, they are going to have to do better than a 0% drop rate for anything good. In fact, I would require a consistent 90% drop rate of great items before I'd ever consider buying keys.

It's all good to support the Devs in buying gems, but never should someone ever buy BL keys under any circumstance

[kharmin.7683]

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't see the problem.

Just because you didn't get what you wanted doesn't mean you got nothing of value. Frankly, I think that this is EXACTLY the path Anet want people to take. It's way cheaper to just convert your gems to gold and buy what you want than it is to play RNG on chests.

Actually, I think the path they want us to take is to buy gems with cash to buy things from the gem store.

[knomslayer.9457]

Dont feel bad about yourself buddy. Just think of it as helping the devs out with that 21 bucks. Every buck supports the game and motivate them to make new skins. Keep trying if you dont get it message me ingame i get you one.

[Clyan.1593]

I know for 100% that spending only a small amount of money will likely be a dissapointment.So from my experience IF you want something from the chests, I strongly suggest you prepare yourself to spend A LOT of money... A HUGE amount of money to be honest.

[Voltekka.2375]

Would you complain if you had gotten a permanent hair contract?