[merged] I want to keep using Arc Build Templates... :/ - Page 6 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[merged] I want to keep using Arc Build Templates... :/

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  • Fir.7932Fir.7932 Member ✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Fir.7932 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    You couldn't complain in one of the many existing threads about this?

    I respect that you don't care that much about the issue as alot of players don't, but for some of us this is one of the most important features in the game and doing anything to it has a huge quality of life impact, that needs to be adressed. I am sorry if the amount of threads is bothering you, but for alot of us, this is game changing, that's why some of us (such as myself) are really annoyed by this and want to be heard in a hope that our gaming experience won't go from satisfying to painful.

    You are hurting your cause more with the passive-aggressive tone of your address and adding to the number of existing threads. Devs have said countless times that merged threads are easier to follow than dozens on the same subject which quickly get lost.

    All you are doing is annoying the devs and the community not interested in this subject.

    Ultimately I am unsure what you want addressed and your initial post doesn't clarify it beyond being snarky. The delta templates aren't returning. That isn't really up for negotiation since the agreement was always that they'd exist until official ones existed. Anet didn't pull them - the maker of it upheld their end of the agreement and did it. I am more sympathetic to the idea of improving the official ones and making them more flexible, but this is the wrong way o attract the devs attention and there are threads to add the thoughts to already. It may seem like a voice will get lost in the masses, but it actually doesn't work that way.

    Maybe you are right, I don't really create new threads here, nor on reddit, I am always just participating in discussions. There have always been good things and bad things to discuss, but nothing of this scale, at least for me. So maybe just the lack of care and the amount of frustration gave me enough confidence to come here and cry out loud. I mean, I've already bought gems hoping I will be able to keep at least most of my gaming experience, but I am not that optimistic about it. I just really really hope, it won't be such a disaster as it sounds.

    I agree with the "making official templates more flexible" part I just don't understand, why we had to lose fanmade ones this soon. It is true, I don't know what caused that, but I didn't update my arc and I don't think that the templates or arc in general is capable of updating itself online, which brings me to a conclussion that it was removed with the Halloween GW2 update, which seems like a really kitten move, but I may be mistaken on this one and if so I am looking forward to the correction, all I know is, that playing raids right now, the best content in the game for me, is straight up cancerous. I just loaded one build I enjoy playing the most on all of my characters and I join squad only if they need this certain build even If I can play any build they ask for., which means I cannot join for some bosses or whole wings because I don't want to swap my support chrono to mirage and so on.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fir.7932 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Actually, spamming the forums goes against the CoC

    Well, I don't see any threads adressing Delta's templates directly and the update that removed it, so this is not spamming. Also this is the one thread I created, it's not like there's bunch of them.

    There is no such thread, but a simple visit to a certain dps site pretty much says:
    "changes
    oct.17.2019: removed build templates."

  • Menadena.7482Menadena.7482 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Regardless of whether or not I care, I would think that funneling all of the complaints about templates into fewer threads might attract the devs attention more than scatter shot threads all over the forum. I think that the complaints would be better served in this manner as the devs probably have a limited amount of spare time to comb through the forums.

    Exactly!

    If anet has time someone will grimace and combine the threads, most likely complaining at the people who made multiple threads and making the combined thread hard to read and devs will not take the time to puzzle it out. If someone does not have time there will be a bunch of scattered threads, all small. The best thing is to contribute to a single thread.

    BTW, I am not quite sure what the complaint even is as you are going from a hack to a supported thing, but oh well.

    New to the game? Feel free to give a yell if you need PVE help.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Fir.7932 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    You couldn't complain in one of the many existing threads about this?

    I respect that you don't care that much about the issue as alot of players don't, but for some of us this is one of the most important features in the game and doing anything to it has a huge quality of life impact, that needs to be adressed. I am sorry if the amount of threads is bothering you, but for alot of us, this is game changing, that's why some of us (such as myself) are really annoyed by this and want to be heard in a hope that our gaming experience won't go from satisfying to painful.

    You are hurting your cause more with the passive-aggressive tone of your address and adding to the number of existing threads. Devs have said countless times that merged threads are easier to follow than dozens on the same subject which quickly get lost.

    All you are doing is annoying the devs and the community not interested in this subject.

    After re-writting my response a number of times so it wasn't as much an attack I think Randulf hit on the head. Your post lended no support to your cause and if anything made me picture even more that Delta's build was indeed a hack and should have been a ban-able mod. Congrats on doing a really bad job supporting the raiding community.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Operator.2590Operator.2590 Member ✭✭✭
    • Something new to do in-game is a bad thing? Who cares how easy it is, more stuff is more stuff--and it's free. Don't like it, don't do it.

      @Fir.7932 said:
      I mean, giving low attention to the community is one thing, but removing the little things we made for ourselfs, just so the game can be somewhat enjoyable is a whole new level.

    • Did you read this before you posted it? Are you seriously complaining about devs trying to make their game more enjoyable?

    • Also, Delta agreed beforehand that it would be removed if the feature was added in-game. Which, in all honesty, is completely fair. But okay, let's just target Anet.
    • The "I'm mad so it's okay to flood the forums with multiple threads" mentality is getting you nowhere.

    "The Sun will be divided that it might not sire children. Still its children shall be Four in number, and Seven in number, and be Numberless. The Numberless shall open the way for the Seven, and the Seven shall consume the Four..."

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Operator.2590 said:

    • Something new to do in-game is a bad thing? Who cares how easy it is, more stuff is more stuff--and it's free. Don't like it, don't do it.

      @Fir.7932 said:
      I mean, giving low attention to the community is one thing, but removing the little things we made for ourselfs, just so the game can be somewhat enjoyable is a whole new level.

    • Did you read this before you posted it? Are you seriously complaining about devs trying to make their game more enjoyable?

    • Also, Delta agreed beforehand that it would be removed if the feature was added in-game. Which, in all honesty, is completely fair. But okay, let's just target Anet.
    • The "I'm mad so it's okay to flood the forums with multiple threads" mentality is getting you nowhere.

    What's worse is that they paint the picture of elitist more and more. So they were already bypassing the challenge of beating content with the same set of gear, use a third party software to do so that barely passes muster, and then complain when the rest of the community will get additional tools that are sanctioned. This really sounds more and more like those people that use cheat code in other games and then congratulates themselves on beating the game.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Ryou.2398Ryou.2398 Member ✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Fir.7932 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    You couldn't complain in one of the many existing threads about this?

    I respect that you don't care that much about the issue as alot of players don't, but for some of us this is one of the most important features in the game and doing anything to it has a huge quality of life impact, that needs to be adressed. I am sorry if the amount of threads is bothering you, but for alot of us, this is game changing, that's why some of us (such as myself) are really annoyed by this and want to be heard in a hope that our gaming experience won't go from satisfying to painful.

    You are hurting your cause more with the passive-aggressive tone of your address and adding to the number of existing threads. Devs have said countless times that merged threads are easier to follow than dozens on the same subject which quickly get lost.

    All you are doing is annoying the devs and the community not interested in this subject.

    Ultimately I am unsure what you want addressed and your initial post doesn't clarify it beyond being snarky. The delta templates aren't returning. That isn't really up for negotiation since the agreement was always that they'd exist until official ones existed. Anet didn't pull them - the maker of it upheld their end of the agreement and did it. I am more sympathetic to the idea of improving the official ones and making them more flexible, but this is the wrong way o attract the devs attention and there are threads to add the thoughts to already. It may seem like a voice will get lost in the masses, but it actually doesn't work that way.

    There is nothing passive aggressive here, he is being honest about how this person expressed themselves, and honestly the people complaining really have no business to its a silly thing to attack the op over it is a legit complaint and his choice to make a post if you do not like them then simply do not click them.

    If you want to find the secrets of the universe think in terms of energy frequency and vibration Nikola Tesla.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not sure how it is a legitimate complaint. Everyone knew that the free templates would be turned off well in advance of this month's announcement. Heck, even I knew and I didn't even use it.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    What's worse is that they paint the picture of elitist more and more. So they were already bypassing the challenge of beating content with the same set of gear, use a third party software to do so that barely passes muster, and then complain when the rest of the community will get additional tools that are sanctioned. This really sounds more and more like those people that use cheat code in other games and then congratulates themselves on beating the game.

    What? Thats not how arc templates worked. It would simply store current loadout and traits when wanted to create a template. Loading the template would just try to equip items from inventory using the normal equip function. Anets genius solution cant do this and you need to buy overpriced gear template slots PER CHARACTER up to a max of 6 for a total of >1k gems.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Fir.7932 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    You couldn't complain in one of the many existing threads about this?

    I respect that you don't care that much about the issue as alot of players don't, but for some of us this is one of the most important features in the game and doing anything to it has a huge quality of life impact, that needs to be adressed. I am sorry if the amount of threads is bothering you, but for alot of us, this is game changing, that's why some of us (such as myself) are really annoyed by this and want to be heard in a hope that our gaming experience won't go from satisfying to painful.

    You are hurting your cause more with the passive-aggressive tone of your address and adding to the number of existing threads. Devs have said countless times that merged threads are easier to follow than dozens on the same subject which quickly get lost.

    All you are doing is annoying the devs and the community not interested in this subject.

    After re-writting my response a number of times so it wasn't as much an attack I think Randulf hit on the head. Your post lended no support to your cause and if anything made me picture even more that Delta's build was indeed a hack and should have been a ban-able mod. Congrats on doing a really bad job supporting the raiding community.

    This is the same skewed view you had since the beginning though, wasn't it?
    I get that for some reason the casual/non-raider part of the community always has been highly toxic and hostile towards anything Raid related and is just taking everything they can to confirm their biases, but the lack of understanding here how unhealthy this whole situation is for that whole community is disheartening to a whole new level.

    I really don't get why this vocal casual part of the community is actively and gleefully cheering on or at least defending these misjudgements by Anet that slowly kill off entire gamemodes or most of the communities within them, be it WvW, Raids, Fractals, PvP etc., just to then eventually wonder where everyone has gone and why the shop is closing.

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @Operator.2590 said:

    • Something new to do in-game is a bad thing? Who cares how easy it is, more stuff is more stuff--and it's free. Don't like it, don't do it.

      @Fir.7932 said:
      I mean, giving low attention to the community is one thing, but removing the little things we made for ourselfs, just so the game can be somewhat enjoyable is a whole new level.

    • Did you read this before you posted it? Are you seriously complaining about devs trying to make their game more enjoyable?

    • Also, Delta agreed beforehand that it would be removed if the feature was added in-game. Which, in all honesty, is completely fair. But okay, let's just target Anet.
    • The "I'm mad so it's okay to flood the forums with multiple threads" mentality is getting you nowhere.

    What's worse is that they paint the picture of elitist more and more. So they were already bypassing the challenge of beating content with the same set of gear, use a third party software to do so that barely passes muster, and then complain when the rest of the community will get additional tools that are sanctioned. This really sounds more and more like those people that use cheat code in other games and then congratulates themselves on beating the game.

    That's simply not how Raids, or any endgame content.. or actually just gaming in general works.
    Since when is the challenge to overcome difficulty by playing highly inefficiently and just bruteforcing your way somehow through the content, instead of the fun and engaging process of adapting yourself and your group to the content via builds and compositions, to get through everything in a satisfying and efficient way?

    Especially after years of playing the same few Raids, that's really all that some of us have left to improve as players. Being able to cover more roles, being more flexible, etc.
    Now adapting yourself to the challenge at hand is cheating? Or at least so is a tool that allows for that process to be efficient? You can't be serious.

    Plus, nobody is complaining about the rest of the community getting additional and sanctioned tools. That's great.
    It would just be better if those tools were properly functional for what service they are trying to provide, especially if they come at the cost of an already working free tool which people had been getting used to since years.

    Saying therefor allowing the tool in the first place was a mistake is nonsense too, as the endgame/Raiding community would never have survived this starvation of content without such a tool, allowing players to in a way create their own content by instead finding ever more ways to play the limited content available in new ways via more, and more specialised builds, instead.
    Build's that are now all gone, with a new system still weeks away, which then won't even allow for half of those builds to be recreated and saved, even looking past the heavy monetisation of it.

    Many players are at a point where it's hard to justify the engagement to a game that is increasingly toxic and hostile to our presence in form of parts of the community, and apathetic and uncaring at best via the developers, and is already noticeably shrinking since years as community due to that neglect and hostility.
    To at that stage have taken away a necessary feature to enjoy the game, only to be replaced by a triple monetised system which is so limited in scope that even after you spend potentially hundreds of euros on it in an attempt to expand it's functionality so that it is still barely functional, just to get back to playing the same old content, still worse than before, is pretty sad indeed for those of us still sticking around because we love the game.

    @lare.5129 said:
    most skilled player who realy love play have ready prepared character for each part.
    Not some uniq thing that pve players have separate chars:
    condi raid warrior
    zerk raid warrior
    ..
    and on air relog for swap

    For me with an aged PC it takes about 5+ minutes at times to relog to another character until I'm back in the Raid/Fractal.
    Plus that can easily lead to having to log around 10 characters at the end of a fullclear to clear out all the inventories and such if you cover a lot of different roles, which would mean for me personally about an hour of staring at loading screens while and after raiding, which is pretty unacceptable.

    Instead I kitted out my character's by buying bag slots from the gemstore to hold all my gear as well as engaging with ingame goals, such as getting legendary Armor for all my frequently played characters with many builds, to alleviate the storage issue.

    It seems all that effort and investment is down the drain now, and I guess I'm now supposed to make a separate character for every build for every single class I play?

    The problem with that is that the maximum amount of character slots is 69, which is in no way enough to cover all my builds and besides that would cost me nearly 700€ and completely invalidate all my previous investments into multiple legendary Armors, as well as things like bag slots and bank tabs.
    What a way to make players and their investment feel valued and respected.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Operator.2590Operator.2590 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    I was going to respond to much more of your post than what I have below--but honestly, it's so much to touch on that it's just easier to let you play the victim. However, I do at least want to mention this:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Instead I kitted out my character's by buying bag slots from the gemstore to hold all my gear as well as engaging with ingame goals, such as getting legendary Armor for all my frequently played characters with many builds, to alleviate the storage issue.

    It seems all that effort and investment is down the drain now, and I guess I'm now supposed to make a separate character for every build for every single class I play?

    In no way is that the case? A feature was added. You can literally play the game exactly the same way as before, utilizing your additional bag space to hold your gear, and getting legendaries. Not a single bit of that has changed. All that's happening now is you have an extra way to save yourself some bag space if you wanna load something onto an equipment template. That's absolutely all that's changed. Don't want to? Keep it in your extra bags--plain and simple. But in no way is any of this forcing you to do anything, nor are you "supposed" to make a separate character for every build. It's almost a bit funny how unrealistic that is.

    Wanna use it? Great, use it. Don't want to? Alright, sounds like you have the extra bag space anyway--cool deal. Mad about Delta Templates? Message 'em on Reddit then so they can tell you personally how what's done is done, as was agreed upon.

    "The Sun will be divided that it might not sire children. Still its children shall be Four in number, and Seven in number, and be Numberless. The Numberless shall open the way for the Seven, and the Seven shall consume the Four..."

  • miraude.2107miraude.2107 Member ✭✭✭

    Alright serious question but like can't you still make an add-on? With the share feature of Anet's build template, you can easily save that in a file folder and then just have it pull from that right? I keep reading that that is how it was done in Guild Wars, that you saved this build in a word document and then just pasted it in. Is like, everything to do with templates killed? You can't like make an add-on that links up with metabattle and shows you the recommended build and go accordingly from there. Do we even know what Anet will and won't allow with apis/add-ons with the release of their templates? Has anyone even asked Anet?
    Do they not allow add-ons at all anymore? Is something like Bartender allowed? GTFO, Deadly Boss Mods, Healium (used to raid as a healer so only remembering the mods I need to use), Spartan UI, Recount etc. By the time I stopped raiding and just decided to be a 'filthy casual' in WoW, my screen was so plastered with stuff I was surprised I could see anything. Then bare boning it and keeping only what I called essential addons, well, it was amazing how much information I was missing after raiding so long. (I'm talking world detail and ambience) Would it be considerable to, if they don't allow things like this, to request the company go a little lax on it? To shift into more of a WoW/ESO stance on them?

  • Didn't use the templates from the third party and won't be using the upcoming template fiasco from Anet. This game has been in development and production for more than a decade and build templates weren't a part of it. All that time wasted doing NPE, season one throw away code and a other wastes of development time, they spent little to no effort on build templates until now (recently). For all the brilliant things they do, Anet sure makes some bonehead moves.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blockhead Magee.3092 said:
    Didn't use the templates from the third party and won't be using the upcoming template fiasco from Anet. This game has been in development and production for more than a decade and build templates weren't a part of it. All that time wasted doing NPE, season one throw away code and a other wastes of development time, they spent little to no effort on build templates until now (recently). For all the brilliant things they do, Anet sure makes some bonehead moves.

    The sad story is that they worked 2years on templates. I hope they didn't do this fulltime. They have serious project lead problems or in general incredible slow workflow to work for this that long full time.

  • Fir.7932Fir.7932 Member ✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Fir.7932 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Actually, spamming the forums goes against the CoC

    Well, I don't see any threads adressing Delta's templates directly and the update that removed it, so this is not spamming. Also this is the one thread I created, it's not like there's bunch of them.

    There is no such thread, but a simple visit to a certain dps site pretty much says:
    "changes
    oct.17.2019: removed build templates."

    And it was removed from the site, but the program itself does not allow removing the feature from my computer once it was downloaded, because it'S no app connected to internet by itself, you have to always download it manually.

  • Roquen.5406Roquen.5406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    What's worse is that they paint the picture of elitist more and more. So they were already bypassing the challenge of beating content with the same set of gear, use a third party software to do so that barely passes muster, and then complain when the rest of the community will get additional tools that are sanctioned. This really sounds more and more like those people that use cheat code in other games and then congratulates themselves on beating the game.

    You are traveling so far off the beaten path with your comment it's ridiculous.

    First, Delta worked closely with an Anet dev to make sure it was good to go. It wasn't barely passable (clearly you have a thing against third party software that benefits others for whatever reason). Do you also complain about Taco, DPS Meter, etc? If you don't like it don't use it but don't harp on others for using them because they are beneficial.

    "So they were bypassing the challenge of beating content..."...I mean really? Do you have Exotic or Ascended gear? Why are you bypassing challenging content by giving yourself stronger stats? Do you use a proper power, condi, tank, boon, any appropriate gear combination? Why are you bypassing the challenge? Why not buy uncommon items off the TP at random so you don't bypass the "challenge"? Do you see how ridiculous your stance is?

    People aren't complaining because Arc is being removed. They are complaining because Arc is being removed AND it's replacement is MUCH more limiting AND it has 3 gated costs per character. Even if someone WANTED to pay for everything they can't...because they are limited to 6 templates per char. Do you understand? Or are you just being stubborn to be stubborn?

    As for your last point about comparing this to cheating? Once again, where is your head at? How is using templates to HELP make things efficient and help other groups and experiment even remotely in the same universe as cheating. Here's the deal, I don't actually use templates or Taco or any other addons but I can still see how useful they are to the people that want them. Just because you or I may not find it fun to min/max, play every role, doesn't mean we should stop others from being able to do so.

    For example, think about all the training runs that happen. The templates allowed people to quickly and efficiently swap builds/gear to adjust for the group's needs. Now people will not be able to do so as efficiently. So instead of players swapping quickly, they may have to wait X amount of time for players to properly swap over. Is that really what you call challenging content? Waiting an additional 5-10 minutes for people to manually drag/drop/change traits/gear/sigils/armor/weapons because they can only have a fraction of the templates they used to have? That's challenging content to you? Not the encounters themselves? Or the way people try to make it fun by trying to clear in unique ways?

    Why are you so against people having different options available to them?

  • Fir.7932Fir.7932 Member ✭✭

    @Operator.2590 said:

    • Something new to do in-game is a bad thing? Who cares how easy it is, more stuff is more stuff--and it's free. Don't like it, don't do it.

      @Fir.7932 said:
      I mean, giving low attention to the community is one thing, but removing the little things we made for ourselfs, just so the game can be somewhat enjoyable is a whole new level.

    • Did you read this before you posted it? Are you seriously complaining about devs trying to make their game more enjoyable?

    • Also, Delta agreed beforehand that it would be removed if the feature was added in-game. Which, in all honesty, is completely fair. But okay, let's just target Anet.
    • The "I'm mad so it's okay to flood the forums with multiple threads" mentality is getting you nowhere.

    No, I am complaying about taking something fans made and forcing us to pay money, so we can continue using it. Therefore it's nothing new, it's something that was in the game all along, just monetized and with a limit. So no, waiting 5-8 minutes before every boss for people to change their builds and then during the fight realising that this guy forgot that trait and this guy forgot to swap that gear is not more enjoyable to me.

    Delta agreed with that, so they would keep his addon in the game. I like that Anet made their own version, something like that should have been in the game long time ago, I am just really disappointed about how they made it.

    I never said, that it's ok to spam because "I am mad" (I don't think this is spamming anyway) I just said that I see a serious issue in the game after removing templates and I haven't seen any thread about it, so I started this one out of frustration and the need of discussion.

    I am polite towards everyone here, and I am looking toward any oposing arguements, so stop changing meanings of things I say and be calm.

  • blambidy.3216blambidy.3216 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @blambidy.3216 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @MokahTGS.7850 said:
    Has Anet said that ARC Templates will not be usable after the patch or are people just making assumptions?

    Yes. More specifically, the developer of arc templates had said that when he got permission to add build templates it was on the express condition that he would disable his build templates once ArenaNet added their own, official build templates.

    We're one step farther now.

    changes
    *** build templates will be disabled starting oct 15 2019 ***

    https://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/

    I'm even more pissed than before (and not at deltaconnected). Not only will we be getting trash templates two weeks from now, we'll have to go two weeks without any templates at all.

    you call them trash, while others may call them 'actually working'.
    Fine, it may be trash. but have you considered the people that can't use ArcDPS for whatever reasons?
    In case you hadn't noticed, ArcDPS is a highly unstable addon that actually makes the game lag or crash.
    anything that works, is better than an unstable product, even if it has less functions

    To say that it’s unstable is not understanding arc in itself. Gw2 is what makes people crash not arc. Out of the whole time i used arc iv only crashed 2 times because of arc. And that was because arc wasn’t updated since arenanet kept on updating the client every 2-3 hours.

    To say that people can’t use it for whatsoever reason is most likely mac, or lunix. If you have a windows pc which is most likely the majority of gamers, you don’t have a problem to install it. However macs can still use Windows os in the mac and back door using arctemplates and be fine. I know people who have done that. So as far as “can’t” means ether the person doesn’t want to. Or just doesn’t care. Or they have a lunix.

    Only platform that is most likely not work is lunix. Build templates is literally as easy as putting a mp3 song into your MP3 player, that’s how easy it is to install arc. To say that in 2k19 and people don’t know how to drag and drop a mp3 song into your MP3 player, you shouldn’t be playing games. Or should truly invest in learning how to operate a pc since now mostly things are operated electronically.

    Truly the problem is Arenanet saying build templates are for dedicated players, and arenanet not targeting dedicated players as the people using them. Dedicated players aren’t players who don’t know how to install arc. Dedicated players aren’t players who just play open world. Dedicated players are people who play for years and raid, pvp, wvw. Not people who just do open world bosses. You don’t need build templates for open world content. Just press 1.

    My problem was, after installing it, it works on the first round. Immediately the next day you will experience crashes, the framerate may drop to around 1 randomly, and other funky stuff happens. This occurs independantly of updating ArcDPS, or the game itself having updates.
    That said, any attempt to update ArcDPS as described on the website itself, results in even funkier behavior, where the only way to update ArcDPS, is just to do a complete reinstall every single day.

    I also use the mount wheel addon, meaning I needed a hook addon to allow 2 addons to run at the same time, which made ArcDPS even more buggy than it was when it was installed solo. Long story short, maintaining ArcDPS was so frustrating I decided to completely drop it, and just wait for something official. Even if it only has half the utility.

    Only platform that is most likely not work is lunix. Build templates is literally as easy as putting a mp3 song into your MP3 player, that’s how easy it is to install arc. To say that in 2k19 and people don’t know how to drag and drop a mp3 song into your MP3 player, you shouldn’t be playing games. Or should truly invest in learning how to operate a pc since now mostly things are operated electronically.

    Thats easy to say, and I'm pretty sure we both install it the same way.. since there is only one way to install it. And yet, it's not working as intended, as all. Meaning if I follow the instructions and it just doesn't work.. then who can I complain to? anet washes their hands clean of any

    Ahh kk. I did honestly forget about adding a second add on. Because it does get more tricky when adding say reshade with arc and adding the wheel because you do have to rename those 2 dll to make it work with arc. So I can get your stance. But reinstalling arc isn’t that much of an issue once you get it going. Reshade and the wheel might be tricky each time it updates however, what I tell people the easiest method would be to cut, paste, overwrite once you finished updating and rewriting the dll names. So you don’t have a problem with it. I will say arc in itself is easy. But when your adding 1,2,3 different 3rd party dll’s together it does get frustrating.

  • blambidy.3216blambidy.3216 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @blambidy.3216 said:

    Truly the problem is Arenanet saying build templates are for dedicated players, and arenanet not targeting dedicated players as the people using them. Dedicated players aren’t players who don’t know how to install arc. Dedicated players aren’t players who just play open world. Dedicated players are people who play for years and raid, pvp, wvw. Not people who just do open world bosses. You don’t need build templates for open world content. Just press 1.

    That is a very shallow definition of a dedicated player.

    But is it a bad definition? Honestly no. How are you a dedicated player if you don’t play the whole game? No let’s rephrase this. How are you a dedicated player if all you do is open world press 1? You don’t need more then 1 build. Your literally with 50 people doing meta/world bosses. You don’t need another build. It’s not even challenging. To say that these players are dedicated to the game is truly false. Dedicated are people having mostly all crafting tiers to 500 to get ascended armor. Dedicated are players who grind out +9 ar infusions to do t4s. Dedicated players are people who grind out vg trying to get ascended pieces and l.i. Dedicated players are people who do wvw and grind to get gift of battle for a legendary weapon. Dedicated players are people who pvp and go for legendary backpack or try to wn a pvp tournament. But to say that people who play open world and press 1 and swipe the credit card for skins are dedicated. That’s a bad perception of dedication.
    I mean mike z himself said dedicated players now have the option of legendary runes and sigils at the start of build templates announcement. People who just do open world bosses and press 1 are not these type of people.

    **Mike Z: Dedicated players also now have more flexibility in customizing their builds with the introduction of legendary runes and sigils, allowing you to create the perfect gear stats for any situation, and this leads to perhaps our biggest quality of life improvement for these dedicated fans. Character build and gear templates are coming to Guild Wars 2 in the near future. This means that players will be able to easily share their builds and switch between different loadouts with ease. You'll be equipped with the most appropriate gear for whatever activity you're doing. Whether you're showing off in Lion's Arch, optimizing for raids, or getting ready for the next big clash in World verses World, you'll have full control over your character's kit. All of these content updates, features, and quality of life improvements continue to be given for free with no monthly subscription fee.
    **

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @blambidy.3216 said:
    But to say that people who play open world and press 1 and swipe the credit card for skins are dedicated. That’s a bad perception of dedication.

    Never said that. You seem to paint open world players with an exceptionally broad brush. This inherently voids your argument.

    There are many, many open world players who are very dedicated both financially and with the time that they spend in the game, who don't raid or chase legendaries. Your definition excludes these players.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Roquen.5406Roquen.5406 Member ✭✭✭

    @Operator.2590 said:
    No problem--then allow me to again summarize the final point in this, clearly and concisely.

    Using Delta's templates was never your right, it was a privilege. It wasn't officially supported, which is the very first thing you see when you even go to the download page for it. Anet never went after it, and turned a blind eye so players could use this additional program to give them something not yet in game.

    You playing this game was never a right, it is a privilege. Have you read the terms? Anet owns everything you play and can take it away or ban you at a moments notice if they deem it so. None of it is yours, stop being entitled to have the game the way you see fit.

    The templates were officially supported, that's why the other guy that released a dps meter/addon was banned. Because he was not compliant with Anet. Delta worked WITH Anet to make sure it was good to go. The red at the top is a DISCLAIMER, the same you will see in any terms you read almost anywhere. And like I said before, it's the same thing you read when you created an account with Anet. It's also the same thing when you decide to open up your phone/console/computer/tv/etc. You break the warranty and so the company isn't liable if something goes wrong. That doesn't mean you can't decide to do it on your own or it's illegal.

    It's now in game, so Delta is removing it. It may not be as good as Delta's (at the moment, as hopefully they will of course improve it), but you are not entitled to have exactly what it was either, as it was never official to begin with.

    He agreed to the terms so he could put the add-on into the game. He's removing it because that's what he has to do. Once again...it's not about entitlement. The new implementation is magnitudes worse than a third party add-on designed by one person. People would be okay with the templates if they weren't losing so much functionality. You keep side-stepping this.

    So, in the end, this is just complaining about something being taken away, that was never truly there to begin with. It wasn't a feature, it was a privilege thanks to Anet's leniency and Delta's programming.

    What? It was there for what, two years? How was that "never truly there"? Once again, you playing the game is a privilege because Anet can take that away from you at any point. Thanks to Anet's leniency you are allowed to log in and play each day. You should be thankful they don't charge you per log in, per char because they can do that if they truly wish. Do you see how this is such ridiculous thinking on your part?

    Now, if you wanna start a "Ways to improve the new Build Templates" thread? By all means, I'm all for it. This is not that.

    Why are you so against people having different options? What harm did these options cause you?

  • blambidy.3216blambidy.3216 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @blambidy.3216 said:
    But to say that people who play open world and press 1 and swipe the credit card for skins are dedicated. That’s a bad perception of dedication.

    Never said that. You seem to paint open world players with an exceptionally broad brush. This inherently voids your argument.

    There are many, many open world players who are very dedicated both financially and with the time that they spend in the game, who don't raid or chase legendaries. Your definition excludes these players.

    Yet again, players who “just” do open world meta bosses/world bosses and press 1 are not dedicated players. Yet what you read was legendary. What I said is crafting for ascended. +9 infusions for fractals. Grinding out vg for li or to get the right piece.

    Having legendary isn’t the only thing to be dedicated. But people who just have exotics and do open world pressing 1 all day without trying any other game mode isn’t dedication to the game. It’s just 1 aspect of the game.

    People who raid, wvw and do fractals do multiple game modes and farm out the game in different ways. They Have to farm to get the correct stats, the correct elite spec, grind out dungeons for runes. Get gold for the piece they need. However I’m talking about dedicated players mike z is referring to in giving build templates. Open world players don’t need build templates. The statistics including players who don’t even use more than 1 build is saddening. They should’ve only include raiders, wvwers, people who do fractals as people who use more then 1 build. Because people who just Do open world most likely don’t use arcbuild templates.

  • Jthug.9506Jthug.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't really care that we are being asked to purchase build and gear template slots, I DO however have a problem with the fact that moving my legendary items between characters is not supported within the armory, and also limiting build and gear load outs to 6 also seems a bit weak. I can see that increasing the quantity of load outs beyond the initial 6 is probably going to happen, but I can't understand why they aren't considering selling premium account wide gear load outs for those of us that would be willing to buy them...

    Personally I had already spent thousands of gems to buy lots and lots of shared inventory spaces for the purpose of shuffling gear between characters and using Arc Templates to manage that gear, but now that is going to be a completely unworkable solution.

  • Operator.2590Operator.2590 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @Roquen.5406 said:
    You playing this game was never a right, it is a privilege. Have you read the terms? Anet owns everything you play and can take it away or ban you at a moments notice if they deem it so.
    Once again, you playing the game is a privilege because Anet can take that away from you at any point. Thanks to Anet's leniency you are allowed to log in and play each day. You should be thankful they don't charge you per log in, per char because they can do that if they truly wish. Do you see how this is such ridiculous thinking on your part?

    Uh? Of course it's also a privilege to play this game? They could charge for logging in, that's called a Subscription. It is completely up to them, how exactly is that ridiculous?

    None of it is yours, stop being entitled to have the game the way you see fit.

    And you demanding to be able to keep Arc--a third party program--isn't doing exactly that?

    The templates were officially supported, that's why the other guy that released a dps meter/addon was banned. Because he was not compliant with Anet. Delta worked WITH Anet to make sure it was good to go. The red at the top is a DISCLAIMER, the same you will see in any terms you read almost anywhere. And like I said before, it's the same thing you read when you created an account with Anet. It's also the same thing when you decide to open up your phone/console/computer/tv/etc. You break the warranty and so the company isn't liable if something goes wrong. That doesn't mean you can't decide to do it on your own or it's illegal.

    Do...do you know how TOS agreements work? Simply signing up is agreeing to the TOS, including that disclaimer. Going against that agreement, which is a legal document, is the definition of illegal? It's not an earth-shattering offense--but yes, illegal. What did you think it was, an optional request?

    Straight from Delta's website: WARNING: MODIFYING GUILD WARS 2 THROUGH ANY 3RD PARTY TOOLS IS NOT SUPPORTED BY ARENANET OR NCSOFT.
    It's pretty straightforward what that means.

    He agreed to the terms so he could put the add-on into the game. He's removing it because that's what he has to do. Once again...it's not about entitlement. The new implementation is magnitudes worse than a third party add-on designed by one person. People would be okay with the templates if they weren't losing so much functionality. You keep side-stepping this.

    I literally said "It might not be as good as Delta's (at the moment, as hopefully they will of course improve it)." That's the opposite of side-stepping.

    Why are you so against people having different options? What harm did these options cause you?

    At this point, you either didn't actually read what I said, or just don't really know what you're talking about--perhaps even both. You should read a little more carefully next time buddy, this was just embarrassing.

    "The Sun will be divided that it might not sire children. Still its children shall be Four in number, and Seven in number, and be Numberless. The Numberless shall open the way for the Seven, and the Seven shall consume the Four..."

  • Donari.5237Donari.5237 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    I would not be surprised if anet find a way to disable pasting chatcodes to avoid the notepad workaround everyone keeps talking about.

    Of course they won't allow that. I'm still very surprised that a lot of people believe that they are easily able to use chat codes to circumvent the system. You can't be that out of your mind being really serious about that.

    Did either of you watch the live stream about templates? Or read the blog announcement? ANet is hyping the fact that you can copy-paste the chatcodes. It's even baked into the templates UI, which I think will be the first time it's been possible to copy-paste any text from within the game. It's not some sneaky workaround. They aren't going to disable it, they put it there on purpose.

    From the blog:

    Build Template Sharing

    Build Templates can also be copied as a chat link in the game. You can send them to friends to help them prepare for a raid—or to your enemies to boast of your superior build. These chat links can also be copied and pasted out of the game and back into it from your clipboard, making trying a new build from another player or an external website a breeze.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Roquen.5406 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    What's worse is that they paint the picture of elitist more and more. So they were already bypassing the challenge of beating content with the same set of gear, use a third party software to do so that barely passes muster, and then complain when the rest of the community will get additional tools that are sanctioned. This really sounds more and more like those people that use cheat code in other games and then congratulates themselves on beating the game.

    You are traveling so far off the beaten path with your comment it's ridiculous.

    First, Delta worked closely with an Anet dev to make sure it was good to go. It wasn't barely passable (clearly you have a thing against third party software that benefits others for whatever reason). Do you also complain about Taco, DPS Meter, etc? If you don't like it don't use it but don't harp on others for using them because they are beneficial.

    "So they were bypassing the challenge of beating content..."...I mean really? Do you have Exotic or Ascended gear? Why are you bypassing challenging content by giving yourself stronger stats? Do you use a proper power, condi, tank, boon, any appropriate gear combination? Why are you bypassing the challenge? Why not buy uncommon items off the TP at random so you don't bypass the "challenge"? Do you see how ridiculous your stance is?

    People aren't complaining because Arc is being removed. They are complaining because Arc is being removed AND it's replacement is MUCH more limiting AND it has 3 gated costs per character. Even if someone WANTED to pay for everything they can't...because they are limited to 6 templates per char. Do you understand? Or are you just being stubborn to be stubborn?

    As for your last point about comparing this to cheating? Once again, where is your head at? How is using templates to HELP make things efficient and help other groups and experiment even remotely in the same universe as cheating. Here's the deal, I don't actually use templates or Taco or any other addons but I can still see how useful they are to the people that want them. Just because you or I may not find it fun to min/max, play every role, doesn't mean we should stop others from being able to do so.

    For example, think about all the training runs that happen. The templates allowed people to quickly and efficiently swap builds/gear to adjust for the group's needs. Now people will not be able to do so as efficiently. So instead of players swapping quickly, they may have to wait X amount of time for players to properly swap over. Is that really what you call challenging content? Waiting an additional 5-10 minutes for people to manually drag/drop/change traits/gear/sigils/armor/weapons because they can only have a fraction of the templates they used to have? That's challenging content to you? Not the encounters themselves? Or the way people try to make it fun by trying to clear in unique ways?

    Why are you so against people having different options available to them?

    This is now out of context since the thread were merged.

    @Roquen.5406 said:
    Why are you so against people having different options available to them?

    If you look at my posting history you will see I am for more in game options. I also typically come at things from both sides. But some of these posts from raiders aren't constructive and just come across as elitist. There have been many good posts made by raiders why the new to everyone else system is more limited than the outside game tool was, the original from the un-merged thread wasn't one of them. I am also not a fan of the sky is falling posts and that one hit both. So yes when people say I can't do raids now that's what leads me to question the tool used before. So again blame the unconstructive posters for not helping the raiders' cause.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Roquen.5406Roquen.5406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @Operator.2590 said:
    Uh? Of course it's also a privilege to play this game? They could charge for logging in, that's called a Subscription. It is completely up to them, how exactly is that ridiculous?

    I wasn't talking about a sub model, I was saying they charge you every time you log in and for every character you play. The new templates are split into three segments and two are charged per character. It was meant to be a ridiculous statement akin to yours.

    And you demanding to be able to keep Arc--a third party program--isn't doing exactly that?

    I didn't demand to keep them in. I don't even use them. Once again, the issue people are having is how limiting the new implementation is. Before people could have unlimited templates all in one. Now they can have up to six that they have to pay for... do you not see how that's limiting?

    Do...do you know how TOS agreements work? Simply signing up is agreeing to the TOS, including that disclaimer. Going against that agreement, which is a legal document, is the definition of illegal? It's not a earth-shattering offense--but yes, illegal. What did you think it was, an optional request?

    Yes, do you? They weren't going against the TOS because the developer worked with Anet to make it okay. Do you not understand that that means they aren't breaking the terms? The disclaimer is just that...a disclaimer. So if in some magical world they lost a piece of armor because of the add-on Anet is not responsible. That doesn't mean the add-on is illegal. Do you understand? If it was it, then the add-on would have be banned along with the developer, much like the other dps tool/add-on that got the developer banned BECAUSE it was not compliant.

    It's pretty straightforward what that means.

    You are leaving out the fact that he worked with Anet to make it compliant? The only reason it was removed is because Anet wanted to monetize their own. They can't do that if his was still in the game. It has nothing to do with the add-on being illegal, it's about $$$.

    I literally said "It might not be as good as Delta's (at the moment, as hopefully they will of course improve it)." That's the opposite of side-stepping.

    You are constantly side-stepping. People are upset because they are losing a ton of functionality. On top of that, they have to pay to get back that little bit of functionality. And even if they wanted to pay for it all, they can never get back the same because there is a cap. Instead you argue about entitlement and people being spoiled, without actually looking at the real issue on hand. Also, it's not a maybe, it's objectively far worse. The only reason it was implemented this way, was so that they can heavily monetize it. You can agree or disagree with what Anet is doing that but that's the truth.

    At this point, you either didn't actually read what I said, or just don't really know what you're talking about--perhaps even both. You should read a little more carefully next time buddy, this was just embarrassing.

    I did read and I do know what I am talking about. It's telling that you end with trying to insult me, rather than sticking to the points on hand.

  • Operator.2590Operator.2590 Member ✭✭✭

    @Roquen.5406 said:

    Oof, nevermind--your agenda's clear now. Interest loss, but good luck to ya!

    "The Sun will be divided that it might not sire children. Still its children shall be Four in number, and Seven in number, and be Numberless. The Numberless shall open the way for the Seven, and the Seven shall consume the Four..."

  • Roquen.5406Roquen.5406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    This is now out of context since the thread were merged.

    Not really out of context since it was in response to your comment but fair enough.

    If you look at my posting history you will see I am for more in game options. I also typically come at things from both sides. But some of these posts from raiders aren't constructive and just come across as elitist. There have been many good posts made by raiders why the new to everyone else system is more limited than the outside game tool was, the original from the un-merged thread wasn't one of them. I am also not a fan of the sky is falling posts and that one hit both. So yes when people say I can't do raids now that's what leads me to question the tool used before. So again blame the unconstructive posters for not helping the raiders' cause.

    I mean templates are supposed to create an efficient and easy way to swap gear/builds. In the very quote from Mike Z:

    Mike Z: Dedicated players also now have more flexibility in customizing their builds with the introduction of legendary runes and sigils, allowing you to create the perfect gear stats for any situation, and this leads to perhaps our biggest quality of life improvement for these dedicated fans. Character build and gear templates are coming to Guild Wars 2 in the near future. This means that players will be able to easily share their builds and switch between different loadouts with ease. You'll be equipped with the most appropriate gear for whatever activity you're doing. Whether you're showing off in Lion's Arch, optimizing for raids, or getting ready for the next big clash in World verses World, you'll have full control over your character's kit. All of these content updates, features, and quality of life improvements continue to be given for free with no monthly subscription fee.

    And yet, Anet's templates do not really provide that. If you have a few builds or only play one of the three modes, then sure maybe it's okay. But if you multi-class or invest heavily in at least one mode, then you are now paying per character, per slot for each of these things. So not only are the templates, a QOL feature not free but they are also very limiting. Do you see the issue here?

    Yes, people are upset but that doesn't mean their points are invalid. There are great points from both sides of the conversation.

  • Roquen.5406Roquen.5406 Member ✭✭✭

    @Operator.2590 said:

    @Roquen.5406 said:

    Oof, nevermind--your agenda's clear now. Interest loss, but good luck to ya!

    That's rather dismissive of you but best of luck.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @Operator.2590 said:

    @Fir.7932 said:
    No, I am complaying about taking something fans made and forcing us to pay money, so we can continue using it. Therefore it's nothing new, it's something that was in the game all along, just monetized and with a limit. So no, waiting 5-8 minutes before every boss for people to change their builds and then during the fight realising that this guy forgot that trait and this guy forgot to swap that gear is not more enjoyable to me.

    Delta agreed with that, so they would keep his addon in the game. I like that Anet made their own version, something like that should have been in the game long time ago, I am just really disappointed about how they made it.

    I never said, that it's ok to spam because "I am mad" (I don't think this is spamming anyway) I just said that I see a serious issue in the game after removing templates and I haven't seen any thread about it, so I started this one out of frustration and the need of discussion.

    I am polite towards everyone here, and I am looking toward any oposing arguements, so stop changing meanings of things I say and be calm.

    No problem--then allow me to again summarize the final point in this, clearly and concisely.

    Using Delta's templates was never your right, it was a privilege. It wasn't officially supported, which is the very first thing you see when you even go to the download page for it. Anet never went after it, and turned a blind eye so players could use this additional program to give them something not yet in game.

    It's now in game, so Delta is removing it. It may not be as good as Delta's (at the moment, as hopefully they will of course improve it), but you are not entitled to have exactly what it was either, as it was never official to begin with.

    So, in the end, this is just complaining about something being taken away, that was never truly there to begin with. It wasn't a feature, it was a privilege thanks to Anet's leniency and Delta's programming.

    Now, if you wanna start a "Ways to improve the new Build Templates" thread? By all means, I'm all for it. This is not that.

    I'm just quoting this ... because it so clearly sets the perspective of what is going on here. It sets the baseline for the minimum of honesty people need to have about this situation to be taken seriously in this discussion.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Shadowmoon.7986Shadowmoon.7986 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    I think its more likely anet is trying to kill the raiding community because it does not align with casual dont try hard whales that are its target audience and it cant be monetized with those who like it.
    I would not be surprised if anet find a way to disable pasting chatcodes to avoid the notepad workaround everyone keeps talking about.

    Kill the raid community? Really? After all the powercreep that we have due to raids (which as killed all other modes, wvw-pvp cause they can split skills only so much), theyre... Trying to kill raids?

    You are assuming they are not trying to kill wvw and spvp as well. How late are alliances and swiss. At this point you better hope those are not triple monitized as well if they come out.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    I think its more likely anet is trying to kill the raiding community because it does not align with casual dont try hard whales that are its target audience and it cant be monetized with those who like it.
    I would not be surprised if anet find a way to disable pasting chatcodes to avoid the notepad workaround everyone keeps talking about.

    Kill the raid community? Really? After all the powercreep that we have due to raids (which as killed all other modes, wvw-pvp cause they can split skills only so much), theyre... Trying to kill raids?

    You are assuming they are not trying to kill wvw and spvp as well. How late are alliances and swiss. At this point you better hope those are not triple monitized as well if they come out.

    None of that makes sense. There is no attempt to 'kill' anything .. there is no motive. If they wanted to outright cancel it, they would just do it. These conspiracy theories that Anet is trying to kill their make no sense ... they don't need some long term subtle approach to do that. They could just pull the plug if that was their real intention.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Not sure how it is a legitimate complaint. Everyone knew that the free templates would be turned off well in advance of this month's announcement. Heck, even I knew and I didn't even use it.

    Sure we knew, but before we learned details, we didn't think the Anet wersion would be so much inferior to Arc templates. And personally i didn't think their system would end up being so blatantly and heavily monetized on top of being lacking.

    I mean, this is like living in a house - it may not look nice, but it's solid, functional and still has all the necessary amenities. You have been told that it's only a temporary housing, and that it will be going to be demolished once the city finishes their own construction project. And then, when the day comes, you are being shown that the new project you will be forced to move into is a trailer park. And a poorly made one. The amenities? Well, there's a standpipe nearby. And a bucket in the corner.
    And you will need to sell your kidney to move in, or go sleep under the bridge.

    Notice how knowing beforehand you would have to move out eventually does nothing to make the whole situation tolerable?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Operator.2590 said:

    No problem--then allow me to again summarize the final point in this, clearly and concisely.

    Using Delta's templates was never your right, it was a privilege. It wasn't officially supported, which is the very first thing you see when you even go to the download page for it. Anet never went after it, and turned a blind eye so players could use this additional program to give them something not yet in game.

    This is absurd. No matter how you look at this statement, it makes no sense =).
    1. If using the Arc was a privilege, then, all the players without this privilege should consider themselves discriminated by this attitude. All pay the same price for the game, but only some are privileged? Complaining against ANet is normal.
    2. But if this was for all players, then it is not a privilege anymore. It is a right. And in this case, complaining against Anet about a right you lost is normal.

    @Operator.2590 said:

    The templates were officially supported, that's why the other guy that released a dps meter/addon was banned. Because he was not compliant with Anet. Delta worked WITH Anet to make sure it was good to go. The red at the top is a DISCLAIMER, the same you will see in any terms you read almost anywhere. And like I said before, it's the same thing you read when you created an account with Anet. It's also the same thing when you decide to open up your phone/console/computer/tv/etc. You break the warranty and so the company isn't liable if something goes wrong. That doesn't mean you can't decide to do it on your own or it's illegal.

    And this raises the question why another hack (in my opinion) has been not accepted? It was not compliant with ANet? ArcDPS is? We have only the opinion of a person saying it is. But that person was the security team leader at that moment - so a common sense makes me think he spoke about the technical risks of this addon. Not about the juridical validity. Because it's hard to believe that the game security leader can have such high juridical knowledge. So, why one of the hacks and not both?

    Ah ! - is about the fact that one was able to display your current build ? This is not different with displaying your current DPS. No matter what a technical person said, the DPS and the boons/durations etc are personal data. Because in the log these are available only for you. I don't think ANet don't have an DPS meter ingame because it is too complicated from a technical p.o.v. It is complicated from the juridical p.o.v. Because, even for the very relaxed laws regarding the personal data - "any data helping you to identify a person" is a personal data. And a DPS meter links the damage to the person doing it - identifying the person.

    @Roquen.5406 said:

    You playing this game was never a right, it is a privilege. Have you read the terms? Anet owns everything you play and can take it away or ban you at a moments notice if they deem it so. None of it is yours, stop being entitled to have the game the way you see fit.

    I think this is wrong. By buying the game you have the right to play it as long as you respect the rules. The rules are inscribed in TOS. Abusing the power and taking you the right to play the game without any valid reason could lead to ... not very pleasant issues. Without both parts respecting the rules from TOS I don't think you will find too many ... adventurers buying that product.

    In my opinion, allowing ArcDPS in game (and the other one) was the moment when ANet opened the Pandora box. Now they have the result of the action.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Operator.2590 said:

    No problem--then allow me to again summarize the final point in this, clearly and concisely.

    Using Delta's templates was never your right, it was a privilege. It wasn't officially supported, which is the very first thing you see when you even go to the download page for it. Anet never went after it, and turned a blind eye so players could use this additional program to give them something not yet in game.

    This is absurd. No matter how you look at this statement, it makes no sense =).
    1. If using the Arc was a privilege, then, all the players without this privilege should consider themselves discriminated by this attitude. All pay the same price for the game, but only some are privileged? Complaining against ANet is normal.
    2. But if this was for all players, then it is not a privilege anymore. It is a right. And in this case, complaining against Anet about a right you lost is normal.

    @Operator.2590 said:

    The templates were officially supported, that's why the other guy that released a dps meter/addon was banned. Because he was not compliant with Anet. Delta worked WITH Anet to make sure it was good to go. The red at the top is a DISCLAIMER, the same you will see in any terms you read almost anywhere. And like I said before, it's the same thing you read when you created an account with Anet. It's also the same thing when you decide to open up your phone/console/computer/tv/etc. You break the warranty and so the company isn't liable if something goes wrong. That doesn't mean you can't decide to do it on your own or it's illegal.

    And this raises the question why another hack (in my opinion) has been not accepted? It was not compliant with ANet? ArcDPS is? We have only the opinion of a person saying it is. But that person was the security team leader at that moment - so a common sense makes me think he spoke about the technical risks of this addon. Not about the juridical validity. Because it's hard to believe that the game security leader can have such high juridical knowledge. So, why one of the hacks and not both?

    Ah ! - is about the fact that one was able to display your current build ? This is not different with displaying your current DPS. No matter what a technical person said, the DPS and the boons/durations etc are personal data. Because in the log these are available only for you. I don't think ANet don't have an DPS meter ingame because it is too complicated from a technical p.o.v. It is complicated from the juridical p.o.v. Because, even for the very relaxed laws regarding the personal data - "any data helping you to identify a person" is a personal data. And a DPS meter links the damage to the person doing it - identifying the person.

    @Roquen.5406 said:

    You playing this game was never a right, it is a privilege. Have you read the terms? Anet owns everything you play and can take it away or ban you at a moments notice if they deem it so. None of it is yours, stop being entitled to have the game the way you see fit.

    I think this is wrong. By buying the game you have the right to play it as long as you respect the rules. The rules are inscribed in TOS. Abusing the power and taking you the right to play the game without any valid reason could lead to ... not very pleasant issues. Without both parts respecting the rules from TOS I don't think you will find too many ... adventurers buying that product.

    In my opinion, allowing ArcDPS in game (and the other one) was the moment when ANet opened the Pandora box. Now they have the result of the action.

    Official Position ArcDPS: DPS Measuring
    @Chris Cleary.8017 wrote in October 2017

    « hide previous quotes
    The current implementation of DPS meters is nothing more than a re-presentation of information already being transmitted by the game server to all clients in the reporting radius. Combat data does not have player ownership as it is being generated by the game server and then transmitted in order to update the status of the world state.

    Essentially since the server is running a calculation/simulation based on actions by all the clients in the area, it owns the subsequent reporting of all calculations.

    This is different for situations like chat, where there is no impact or simulation necessary and essentially is a forwarding service that the server is simply handling the reporting of the client action.

    In Feb 2017, @Chris Cleary.8017 wrote on Reddit:
    We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client. Anything beyond that scope is still considered a violation of the User Agreement.

    So, does that mean memory reading DPS readers are OK as long as they are only parsing combat data?

    You are correct. Combat data is defined as any information that is created due to the usage of skills or impact on players due to skill usage (by the player/s or an outside source).

    Edit/Update: These statements are particularly targeted at a "DPS Meter" or functionality built around the capture of combat data. Features outside of that most likely fall under "Quality of Life" changes and should be removed from DPS meters if they want to be considered compliant with our rules.

    In April 2017, Chris Cleary wrote on Reddit:
    ArenaNet authorizes the use and development of 3rd Party tools under the banner of a "DPS Meter". "DPS Meters" is defined as the collection and processing of combat related data in order to develop a statistical and visual representation of that data. This combat data maybe collected from anyone inside of your immediate social group. Social groups are defined as including the player character, and current party and/or squad.

    Combat data does not include current entity status, including current Buffs/Debuffs/Health/Stats/Location or any other data that is not generated due to the usage of skills or impact on player characters due to skill usage (by the PC/s or an outside source).

    The collection and processing of data in the client must be limited to the scope of the "DPS meter" and should not exceed it. Visualization of this data must also limited to the scope of the "DPS Meter" which includes visualizations, logging, and processing/visualization of logging.

    And
    In September 2015, ArcDPS developer DeltaConnected wrote:
    I now have the all clear for build templates. arcdps serves as the framework for the time being

    Chris Cleary replied
    About 2-3 months ago I asked /u/deltaconnected to take down his previously created Build Templates addon to ArcDPS. At the time it was in violation of our rules to distribute it and it had key issues with it when it came to functionality and interaction with the game client.

    This release is the result of a multi-month coordination to get his Build Templates addon into a place where I can green-light it for release. Unlike DPS meters, Build Templates is a much more passive user interface addon and thus it could be individually allowed to release outside of the DPS meter Terms of Service rules restriction. If future developers are interested in working with me to create addons, please reach out to me and we can chat.

    I'm green-lighting this due to the developer's trustworthiness after months of interaction and willingness to add key restrictions and functionality changes to accommodate my push to keep addons away from becoming a "must have to win" situation (WvW restrictions were not outlined in his post, but they are there along with others).

    In their current state, /u/DeltaConnected's Build templates are green-lit and safe to use by users (in terms of violating the Terms of Service). I've asked him to run any functionality changes by me before releasing, so hopefully we don't need to worry about things changing in the future in terms of "safe to use".

    This is officially unsupported, and ArenaNet will not be able to offer any support for this addon or issues that occur due to use of this addon.

    Please, PLEASE do not start making assumptions about things that have been answered by devs time and again.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    One of the biggest concerns here in this forum is discussing with people that call ArcDPS a hack. It's the point where those people usually have to go to a tech training to educate themselves. But yeah, that won't happen according to my real life experiences.

    In addition it's a little bit disgusting confusing for me that real existent people a.k.a. customer are so heavily supporting (and in this case actually whiteknighting) the company to an extent that it can't be taken seriously any longer - or for me personally is a sign of pretty heavy addiction I wouldn't call healthy any longer.
    Very valid points have been made besides some dubious ones too but then again mentioned people are trying to defend the company as if it were their life-task. Holy skritt. Most of them even play forum police although there already is a functional and sometimes very narrowly guided moderation.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    I don't get why people complain about this . You are already collecting multiple gear sets so just make alts, and you can have as many builds as you want, accessible on-demand, and ArenaNet has even made it easy in recent times with all the teleport items.

    Now you can even use three builds per alt without spending anything so the build possibilities go up exponentially..

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (formerly Jade Quarry) | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Terakura/Spellbreaker | ♀♥♀

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It seems to me that most of the angst is coming from the raiding community because Anet's template solution does not allow for the rapid swap of gear between raid wings? Having alts does not solve this for them because of the time necessary to swap things around.

    I still maintain that this is by design and that Anet didn't intend for rapid swapping through raids which is why templates were not included when raids were released. This would cut down on the speed runs. Just my opinion. I have no facts to support this theory.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I don't get why people complain about this . You are already collecting multiple gear sets so just make alts, and you can have as many builds as you want, accessible on-demand, and ArenaNet has even made it easy in recent times with all the teleport items.

    Now you can even use three builds per alt without spending anything so the build possibilities go up exponentially..

    Maybe you read first why there are complaints. Hint: It has to do with ArcDPS.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Taygus.4571Taygus.4571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I don't get why people complain about this . You are already collecting multiple gear sets so just make alts, and you can have as many builds as you want, accessible on-demand, and ArenaNet has even made it easy in recent times with all the teleport items.

    Now you can even use three builds per alt without spending anything so the build possibilities go up exponentially..

    except...most people were using legendary + arc templates. Anets version, if you swap legendary between characters, your templates get deleted.

  • Taygus.4571Taygus.4571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    It seems to me that most of the angst is coming from the raiding community because Anet's template solution does not allow for the rapid swap of gear between raid wings? Having alts does not solve this for them because of the time necessary to swap things around.

    I still maintain that this is by design and that Anet didn't intend for rapid swapping through raids which is why templates were not included when raids were released. This would cut down on the speed runs. Just my opinion. I have no facts to support this theory.

    If they were against it, they'd have never allowed arc as a stop gap.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    It seems to me that most of the angst is coming from the raiding community because Anet's template solution does not allow for the rapid swap of gear between raid wings? Having alts does not solve this for them because of the time necessary to swap things around.

    I still maintain that this is by design and that Anet didn't intend for rapid swapping through raids which is why templates were not included when raids were released. This would cut down on the speed runs. Just my opinion. I have no facts to support this theory.

    If they were against it, they'd have never allowed arc as a stop gap.

    My theory is that they didn't want templates when they implemented raids. When Arc appeared, they reconsidered it but wanted them on their own terms. They allowed Arc until they could figure out how they wanted to implement "official" templates (which is also why there was the agreement to terminate Arc when that happened). Again, this is just my take.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Roquen.5406 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    This is now out of context since the thread were merged.

    Not really out of context since it was in response to your comment but fair enough.

    If you look at my posting history you will see I am for more in game options. I also typically come at things from both sides. But some of these posts from raiders aren't constructive and just come across as elitist. There have been many good posts made by raiders why the new to everyone else system is more limited than the outside game tool was, the original from the un-merged thread wasn't one of them. I am also not a fan of the sky is falling posts and that one hit both. So yes when people say I can't do raids now that's what leads me to question the tool used before. So again blame the unconstructive posters for not helping the raiders' cause.

    I mean templates are supposed to create an efficient and easy way to swap gear/builds. In the very quote from Mike Z:

    Mike Z: Dedicated players also now have more flexibility in customizing their builds with the introduction of legendary runes and sigils, allowing you to create the perfect gear stats for any situation, and this leads to perhaps our biggest quality of life improvement for these dedicated fans. Character build and gear templates are coming to Guild Wars 2 in the near future. This means that players will be able to easily share their builds and switch between different loadouts with ease. You'll be equipped with the most appropriate gear for whatever activity you're doing. Whether you're showing off in Lion's Arch, optimizing for raids, or getting ready for the next big clash in World verses World, you'll have full control over your character's kit. All of these content updates, features, and quality of life improvements continue to be given for free with no monthly subscription fee.

    And yet, Anet's templates do not really provide that. If you have a few builds or only play one of the three modes, then sure maybe it's okay. But if you multi-class or invest heavily in at least one mode, then you are now paying per character, per slot for each of these things. So not only are the templates, a QOL feature not free but they are also very limiting. Do you see the issue here?

    Yes, people are upset but that doesn't mean their points are invalid. There are great points from both sides of the conversation.

    Other posts made good points on why they see the new system as more limited to what they were used to or from what they had in GW1, again not from the original post that trigger the response. People were making do before Arc was created and when people come back and say they now can't play without it and the game is ending, that's where I draw the line. I understand the benefit of people being able to fill roles and what that entails. I am a PvXer but I don't raid. I do have spots for 31 toons and 23 WvWers are fully ascended and some legendary since I run havoc and roam. So I understand the need to be able to run differing builds but we had ways around it before and when people say we don't now and spread miss information I will call them out.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    It seems to me that most of the angst is coming from the raiding community because Anet's template solution does not allow for the rapid swap of gear between raid wings? Having alts does not solve this for them because of the time necessary to swap things around.

    I still maintain that this is by design and that Anet didn't intend for rapid swapping through raids which is why templates were not included when raids were released. This would cut down on the speed runs. Just my opinion. I have no facts to support this theory.

    If they were against it, they'd have never allowed arc as a stop gap.

    My theory is that they didn't want templates when they implemented raids. When Arc appeared, they reconsidered it but wanted them on their own terms. They allowed Arc until they could figure out how they wanted to implement "official" templates (which is also why there was the agreement to terminate Arc when that happened). Again, this is just my take.

    I tend to agree, I doubt they designed any of the PvE content around planning on people switching builds as they played. How this will impact player's perception of game challenge and/or how they design future content we will have to see. I fear this will be a Pandora's box situation though on either new content impact where they design planning on forcing people to switch or people calling out others for not doing so.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I don't get why people complain about this . You are already collecting multiple gear sets so just make alts, and you can have as many builds as you want, accessible on-demand, and ArenaNet has even made it easy in recent times with all the teleport items.

    Now you can even use three builds per alt without spending anything so the build possibilities go up exponentially..

    except...most people were using legendary + arc templates. Anets version, if you swap legendary between characters, your templates get deleted.

    most people should probably have been doing what more most people do (get alt ascended gear to solve that problem.)
    An elite player can complain that a newbies dps is too low and tell them that ascended gear is ez to get yet they dont own multiple sets themselves?
    Im also pretty sure anet did not design legendary armor with the idea that you would be rapidly flip flopping it between different toons. That probably became a thing on the player side.

    Which is probably why their current design has some issues with legendary armor which could likely be fixed in future patches with a bit of work.

  • Taygus.4571Taygus.4571 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I don't get why people complain about this . You are already collecting multiple gear sets so just make alts, and you can have as many builds as you want, accessible on-demand, and ArenaNet has even made it easy in recent times with all the teleport items.

    Now you can even use three builds per alt without spending anything so the build possibilities go up exponentially..

    except...most people were using legendary + arc templates. Anets version, if you swap legendary between characters, your templates get deleted.

    most people should probably have been doing what more most people do (get alt ascended gear to solve that problem.)
    An elite player can complain that a newbies dps is too low and tell them that ascended gear is ez to get yet they dont own multiple sets themselves?
    Im also pretty sure anet did not design legendary armor with the idea that you would be rapidly flip flopping it between different toons. That probably became a thing on the player side.

    Which is probably why their current design has some issues with legendary armor which could likely be fixed in future patches with a bit of work.

    These people 15+ builds...at that point, you're better having ledgendary gear....

    I do agree that Anet. Probably didn't design ledgie to be regurlarly swapped between charcters..but more if/when you stopped playing a char and wanted to switch to something new.

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