On roles and 'optimum' team comp.

[Henry.5713]

Druids provide you with much more than just reliable squad-wide Might. This kinda comp only seems worth it if you are actually able to get away with running absolutely no healing which would indeed reward you with a slight increase in squad damage. But it would also ultimately mean that it isn't worth it for any group.You already sacrafice quite a bit of the warrior DPS by changing their role from pretty much a full DPS that happens to also bring banners to a hybrid build that might have very little personal DPS depending on the build you are talking about. The squad damage is going to be lowered even further with each additional sacrafice you have to make to replace the many Druid goodies outside of providing Might. Stuff like changing either part of the FB/Renegade duo to a full healing build because of the missing healing or bringing a Soulbeast who then has to run two spirits / taking the loss in squad damage due to the missing spirits. The missing Spotter will force you to run more Assassin gear (not much of a loss but it adds up). There is other stuff to consider like boons (Fury, Vigor), condition removal and more. Nothing you can't handle but it might result in even more sacrafices.

Considering the "one healer/two healers" scenario, a freedom to run Lingering Light sounds good on paper but I much rather have my FB or Renegade swap to a healing build if the GOTL Druid alone couldn't cut it. Running either of these builds comes with so many additional benefits alongside WAY better healing than one trait on the Druid provides you with. Not to mention the sacrafice in warrior DPS you have to take which might actually be more than what you would lose by making the Renegade swap.

The current setups seem to be more flexible, durable and reliable than anything revolving around a Tactics Warrior.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Sigfodr.9576 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:The thing I find most interesting about the new Tactics line in warrior, and it's potential effect on the optimum team comp... Is that if you compare the dps between druid, chrono, bannerslave comp (just the supports, excluding the dps guys all together) the firebregade with tactics warrior has much higher personal dps. Yes at the loss of frost and fire spirits... But, gains a lot of personal dps. I don't know if this will be worth it or not, I'm still gearing my warrior in diviner's and have yet to pitch it to my static.

Firebrigade do have higher dps then chrono/druid, but at the loss of alot of the healing (+ spirits). That is unless the FB go heal and then the damage is the same.

I understand that you really want to test out banner/might war, and thats cool. But why in the world do you even consider diviner? Your only boon really is might so just swap your runes to strength and replace some berserker gear with assassin and you are done. Fury? np, you will have either a QFB or a HFB anf then fury is 100% taken care off or a chrono and then you just barely need to help with fury and just taking for great justise will be more then enought. And then you dont loose 80% of your damage.

Diviner? Fury, vigor, resistance, and self quickness while not grouped. (swap a few traits) also, I like long swiftness. So, optimally perfect? It's probs not. But it's fun so far. I'm already set up in 90% berserker's gear now. Without some duration, the vigor and fury can fall off... I don't want that, bassicly.

Shouldn't some food and sigils take care of that though?

Sadly no, no by the skill builder. I could be wrong, dunno if it's worth building to test with as expensive and irritating as the gear is to make.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Sigfodr.9576 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:The thing I find most interesting about the new Tactics line in warrior, and it's potential effect on the optimum team comp... Is that if you compare the dps between druid, chrono, bannerslave comp (just the supports, excluding the dps guys all together) the firebregade with tactics warrior has much higher personal dps. Yes at the loss of frost and fire spirits... But, gains a lot of personal dps. I don't know if this will be worth it or not, I'm still gearing my warrior in diviner's and have yet to pitch it to my static.

Firebrigade do have higher dps then chrono/druid, but at the loss of alot of the healing (+ spirits). That is unless the FB go heal and then the damage is the same.

I understand that you really want to test out banner/might war, and thats cool. But why in the world do you even consider diviner? Your only boon really is might so just swap your runes to strength and replace some berserker gear with assassin and you are done. Fury? np, you will have either a QFB or a HFB anf then fury is 100% taken care off or a chrono and then you just barely need to help with fury and just taking for great justise will be more then enought. And then you dont loose 80% of your damage.

Diviner? Fury, vigor, resistance, and self quickness while not grouped. (swap a few traits) also, I like long swiftness. So, optimally perfect? It's probs not. But it's fun so far. I'm already set up in 90% berserker's gear now. Without some duration, the vigor and fury can fall off... I don't want that, bassicly.

Shouldn't some food and sigils take care of that though?

Sadly no, no by the skill builder. I could be wrong, dunno if it's worth building to test with as expensive and irritating as the gear is to make.

For boon duration there are definitely sigils and food buffs. Namely Sigil of Concentration and Sigil of Bounty, and any of the foods with concentration in their effects.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Sigfodr.9576 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:The thing I find most interesting about the new Tactics line in warrior, and it's potential effect on the optimum team comp... Is that if you compare the dps between druid, chrono, bannerslave comp (just the supports, excluding the dps guys all together) the firebregade with tactics warrior has much higher personal dps. Yes at the loss of frost and fire spirits... But, gains a lot of personal dps. I don't know if this will be worth it or not, I'm still gearing my warrior in diviner's and have yet to pitch it to my static.

Firebrigade do have higher dps then chrono/druid, but at the loss of alot of the healing (+ spirits). That is unless the FB go heal and then the damage is the same.

I understand that you really want to test out banner/might war, and thats cool. But why in the world do you even consider diviner? Your only boon really is might so just swap your runes to strength and replace some berserker gear with assassin and you are done. Fury? np, you will have either a QFB or a HFB anf then fury is 100% taken care off or a chrono and then you just barely need to help with fury and just taking for great justise will be more then enought. And then you dont loose 80% of your damage.

Diviner? Fury, vigor, resistance, and self quickness while not grouped. (swap a few traits) also, I like long swiftness. So, optimally perfect? It's probs not. But it's fun so far. I'm already set up in 90% berserker's gear now. Without some duration, the vigor and fury can fall off... I don't want that, bassicly.

Shouldn't some food and sigils take care of that though?

Sadly no, no by the skill builder. I could be wrong, dunno if it's worth building to test with as expensive and irritating as the gear is to make.

For boon duration there are definitely sigils and food buffs. Namely Sigil of Concentration and Sigil of Bounty, and any of the foods with concentration in their effects.

My bad, I didn't mean, there aren't any sigils, just that they weren't enough to cover the gap, and cause a large dps loss.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Sigfodr.9576 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:The thing I find most interesting about the new Tactics line in warrior, and it's potential effect on the optimum team comp... Is that if you compare the dps between druid, chrono, bannerslave comp (just the supports, excluding the dps guys all together) the firebregade with tactics warrior has much higher personal dps. Yes at the loss of frost and fire spirits... But, gains a lot of personal dps. I don't know if this will be worth it or not, I'm still gearing my warrior in diviner's and have yet to pitch it to my static.

Firebrigade do have higher dps then chrono/druid, but at the loss of alot of the healing (+ spirits). That is unless the FB go heal and then the damage is the same.

I understand that you really want to test out banner/might war, and thats cool. But why in the world do you even consider diviner? Your only boon really is might so just swap your runes to strength and replace some berserker gear with assassin and you are done. Fury? np, you will have either a QFB or a HFB anf then fury is 100% taken care off or a chrono and then you just barely need to help with fury and just taking for great justise will be more then enought. And then you dont loose 80% of your damage.

Diviner? Fury, vigor, resistance, and self quickness while not grouped. (swap a few traits) also, I like long swiftness. So, optimally perfect? It's probs not. But it's fun so far. I'm already set up in 90% berserker's gear now. Without some duration, the vigor and fury can fall off... I don't want that, bassicly.

Shouldn't some food and sigils take care of that though?

Sadly no, no by the skill builder. I could be wrong, dunno if it's worth building to test with as expensive and irritating as the gear is to make.

For boon duration there are definitely sigils and food buffs. Namely Sigil of Concentration and Sigil of Bounty, and any of the foods with concentration in their effects.

My bad, I didn't mean, there aren't any sigils, just that they weren't enough to cover the gap, and cause a large dps loss.

I'm sure you can find a spot for more concentration so that fury and vigor don't time out. Its not like it takes that much (particularly for fury if you have FGJ on the bar).

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Sigfodr.9576 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:The thing I find most interesting about the new Tactics line in warrior, and it's potential effect on the optimum team comp... Is that if you compare the dps between druid, chrono, bannerslave comp (just the supports, excluding the dps guys all together) the firebregade with tactics warrior has much higher personal dps. Yes at the loss of frost and fire spirits... But, gains a lot of personal dps. I don't know if this will be worth it or not, I'm still gearing my warrior in diviner's and have yet to pitch it to my static.

Firebrigade do have higher dps then chrono/druid, but at the loss of alot of the healing (+ spirits). That is unless the FB go heal and then the damage is the same.

I understand that you really want to test out banner/might war, and thats cool. But why in the world do you even consider diviner? Your only boon really is might so just swap your runes to strength and replace some berserker gear with assassin and you are done. Fury? np, you will have either a QFB or a HFB anf then fury is 100% taken care off or a chrono and then you just barely need to help with fury and just taking for great justise will be more then enought. And then you dont loose 80% of your damage.

Diviner? Fury, vigor, resistance, and self quickness while not grouped. (swap a few traits) also, I like long swiftness. So, optimally perfect? It's probs not. But it's fun so far. I'm already set up in 90% berserker's gear now. Without some duration, the vigor and fury can fall off... I don't want that, bassicly.

Shouldn't some food and sigils take care of that though?

Sadly no, no by the skill builder. I could be wrong, dunno if it's worth building to test with as expensive and irritating as the gear is to make.

For boon duration there are definitely sigils and food buffs. Namely Sigil of Concentration and Sigil of Bounty, and any of the foods with concentration in their effects.

My bad, I didn't mean, there aren't any sigils, just that they weren't enough to cover the gap, and cause a large dps loss.

I'm sure you can find a spot for more concentration so that fury and vigor don't time out. Its not like it takes that much (particularly for fury if you have FGJ on the bar).

Yeah... I. Kinda scrapped the idea... Because the pure dps loss of the build and rotation is so low it would only be acceptable as a healer... And the healing traits in tactics are all lined up against the might traits... So it turns out that you can't do both....

If someone and make tactics work. That's sick. Make a post about it. And I'd love to see it.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Sigfodr.9576 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:The thing I find most interesting about the new Tactics line in warrior, and it's potential effect on the optimum team comp... Is that if you compare the dps between druid, chrono, bannerslave comp (just the supports, excluding the dps guys all together) the firebregade with tactics warrior has much higher personal dps. Yes at the loss of frost and fire spirits... But, gains a lot of personal dps. I don't know if this will be worth it or not, I'm still gearing my warrior in diviner's and have yet to pitch it to my static.

Firebrigade do have higher dps then chrono/druid, but at the loss of alot of the healing (+ spirits). That is unless the FB go heal and then the damage is the same.

I understand that you really want to test out banner/might war, and thats cool. But why in the world do you even consider diviner? Your only boon really is might so just swap your runes to strength and replace some berserker gear with assassin and you are done. Fury? np, you will have either a QFB or a HFB anf then fury is 100% taken care off or a chrono and then you just barely need to help with fury and just taking for great justise will be more then enought. And then you dont loose 80% of your damage.

Diviner? Fury, vigor, resistance, and self quickness while not grouped. (swap a few traits) also, I like long swiftness. So, optimally perfect? It's probs not. But it's fun so far. I'm already set up in 90% berserker's gear now. Without some duration, the vigor and fury can fall off... I don't want that, bassicly.

Shouldn't some food and sigils take care of that though?

Sadly no, no by the skill builder. I could be wrong, dunno if it's worth building to test with as expensive and irritating as the gear is to make.

For boon duration there are definitely sigils and food buffs. Namely Sigil of Concentration and Sigil of Bounty, and any of the foods with concentration in their effects.

My bad, I didn't mean, there aren't any sigils, just that they weren't enough to cover the gap, and cause a large dps loss.

I'm sure you can find a spot for more concentration so that fury and vigor don't time out. Its not like it takes that much (particularly for fury if you have FGJ on the bar).

Yeah... I. Kinda scrapped the idea... Because the pure dps loss of the build and rotation is so low it would only be acceptable as a healer... And the healing traits in tactics are all lined up against the might traits... So it turns out that you can't do both....

If someone and make tactics work. That's sick. Make a post about it. And I'd love to see it.

https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/warrior/banner/ core banner slave use tactics.

[Czokalapik.6091]

Note that I only glanced on responses, so this is only replying to the original post

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:So, there's the perfect dream right? The dream that your group will have all of the following:

• 25 might
• fury
• quickness
• alacrity
• spotter
• sun spirit
• frost spirit
• empower allies
• assassin's prescience

Not exactly, you want that, but for what reasons? It's:

• 100% crit chance on all power builds (here you can put Fury, banners and optional Spotter)
• Highest possible damage output (here is everything else, might, qs, alac, frost spirit, empower allies, banners, or sun for condi), and highest possible dmg is the thing that dictates what meta is

Druid does offer a lot of the buffs and ofc healing (and it's way too much healing, in reality you need way less), but better your grup is, less healing you need, you are starting to want longer, uninterrupted bursts of dps, so you are starting to look for some controlled Aegis and Stability use to make those bursts possible.

Take fractals progression as an example:

1. You are running t1-t4 with "obvious" (for new players) druid/chrono setup because... well, druid is very obvious healer, and chrono is very obvious support if you are new.
2. When you start doing CMs and you are more experienced, you realize most dmg can be simply avoided, and you would profit more from stability and aegis on certain bosses. You change to Healbrand/Alaren, that gives you stab, good aegis, and all the other buffs + healing ofc. You are loosing Frost Spirit, but Alaren dmg is making up for that loss.
3. Now you want to do CMs and T4s even faster, you know the mechanics and you can avoid almost all damage, so why do you need a healer? Well, you don't. So you switch Healbrand to Quickbrand. In that scenario, you have 4.5 dps players in your group instead of 3.7, and you are able to skip some phases, make fights extremely short.

You also want to know what classes can do what and what is the tradeoff, like Healbrand can do Fury and 25 Might, but it might not be 100% if you are pugging (if group is not stacked, if phases are too long, or if it's too chaotic). But if Alaren was told to help with might uptime - it will be covered. You don't want the warrior running Phalanx Str for might uptime because it will cost warrior more dps in comparison to Alaren pressing F2 from time to time (and due to gear difference losing way less dps group-wise).

All the buffs your DPS classes are generating is also important, the best example from current meta is Dragonhunter. DHs are great power classes, but can also provide solid amount of Fury and Might (now with the Scepter nerf and Sword buff it will be more fury than might, that will only come from elite trap).

Tke some optimal power dps bosses comps (simplified for example purposes), you are running multiple DHs and 1 Soulbeast (not counting supports), why is that? Well simply because Slb does not give many boons, but can give Vuln and OWP for others in the group and does similar dps as DHs, while DHs are giving boons and can cleave better.

Also your overall group performance will directly influence "optimal" setup for you. For example:

• less dps your group does, more valuable condi classes are,
• more ppl dying makes heal necro more valuable,
• more ppl stack, your supports will give more boons, deal more damage, you might want to drop 1 support if another can cover 10ppl boons in small radius (chrono)
• (in some cases) more ppl failing mechanics, more aegis/stab you need
• etc

BUT. Optimal/Meta is one thing, and killing a boss in a pug is another ;] If you want to run tactics War, you probably could, because why not, just know what you can do and what not, and say you need help with fury or something.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Czokalapik.6091 said:BUT. Optimal/Meta is one thing, and killing a boss in a pug is another ;] If you want to run tactics War, you probably could, because why not, just know what you can do and what not, and say you need help with fury or something.

With Pack Runes and FGJ fury uptime is not a problem, less so if you take Roaring Reveille instead of Leg Specialist, but then RR isn't really needed.

[Czokalapik.6091]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 details don't matter much, but sure.Even with that though, answer for original question about why meta looks as it looks stay the same.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Czokalapik.6091 said:@Lan Deathrider.5910 details don't matter much, but sure.Even with that though, answer for original question about why meta looks as it looks stay the same.

Not saying otherwise on why meta is meta, but Bannerslave is already specced into Tactics, and Berserker Power Bannerslave also has a Tactics variant. the vast majority of the Power Berserker's DPS is spamming Decapitate and is less reliant on weapon skills. All that might from Decapitate can be shared with the subgroup with PS instead of wasting it, which also makes each Decap a ~2k heal for the warrior. Throw FGJ on the bar instead SoM and tack pack runes. Solid DPS with perma fury and might.

The only drawback is that PS and FGJ are only for 5 members.Perfect for FotM though.

[Czokalapik.6091]

As I said

@Czokalapik.6091 said:You don't want the warrior running Phalanx Str for might uptime because it will cost warrior more dps in comparison to Alaren pressing F2 from time to time (and due to gear difference losing way less dps group-wise).

[shejesa.3712]

Geez, you're wrong on so many levels...Ofc you can use, let's say, might tempest instead of a druid.But in that situation you're sacrificing buffs unique to a druid and dps of a weaver to get a subpar healer who still doesn't have dmg and a subpar dps from someone who could've given you meta dps.

Builds are meta because you either fill more ticks from your list than other builds or have more dmg than other builds while providing the same or better utility.

Also, and it's baffling for me, the list you provided, it's not 'the perfect dream,' it's baseline. I don't want to know how your daily runs of group content are if it's 'perfect' for you instead of something you assume you have and kick people who can't provide.