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Reaper vs Scourge (History of a Rivalry)


Lily.1935

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@"bluff.8962" said:"In PvP the story is quite a bit different. Up until recently the scourge kept out many of the other classes from being competitive because of how strong their aoe was. This mostly impacted melee classes and specs so Reaper was oppressed heavily by the scourge which only furthered the reaper's hatred for the elite spec. But the feeling was mutual as this was only the modern evolution of the old argument of the GW1 veteran vs New Age Necromancer." -Lily.1935

This, I mainly go PVP and Reaper was useless due to Scourge. The change to unholy matyr was the crushing blow. Blood line led by the old Unholy matyr gave me the sustain I needed and team cleanse (albeit small). I wish the Unholy matyr change would have increased condi transfer from mates to 3-5 and 2-3% life force per condi.

I quit November 2017 not to return until just after the Scourge changes. I main soulbeast now... Still not incredibly happy and still trying to find a fit for reaper in the face of holos and warriors.

This is the real story. PvE players don't give a damn about necro balance or think it's weak in most cases because its coefficients and damage output are in fact lower than others' upper limits. The issue is that necro for a long time has hinged its viability on PvP-only mechanics like boon corruption and area control, making it potent in one format while undesirable in another. Scourge twists the knife and makes the necromancer (building scourge) downright game-ruining in PvP, while maintaining lower coefficients and damage in PvE, dividing the necro community while the rest of the game hates the spec/class.

People hate Scourge across all classes because it's just oppressive to play against, and boons are too big a part of PvP that there's just no way to deal with the threat they bring. Even before CC powercreep, there was enough aoeCC in the game where stripping stability was almost certain death for most melee classes making a push, which is why necro was meta in PvP and WvW from 2012 until PoF.

It's horrendously designed and isn't compatible with the rest of the game in the PvP modes and strictly doesn't work in PvE because it's incompatible there, too.Scourge needs its corruption capabilities removed in full, and should be reworked into a pure support/condi damage spec. It then becomes the inverse of reaper from a playstyle perspective, and can be made to be suitable in PvE (because support mechanics are compatible with PvE whereas corruption isn't in the current PvE landscape).

@"Nimon.7840" said:Anyone who says: I'm reaper main. Or "I'm scourge main" or even "I'm core main" isn't a true Necro main!

In my opinion maining a class means to play that class as a whole, not just parts of it

Nonsense. I HATE the playstyle scourge has, and only tolerated core necro for small windows of time until they nerfed the SR line, to which I now also dislike playing core. But between HoT and PoF I played more hours on Reaper than I did on thief, despite being very definitively a thief main before the elite specs existed by a margin of a few thousand hours. I unlocked Deadeye for no other reason than curiosity. I still don't really enjoy the spec for extended periods.

I say I'm a Reaper main because I fully recognize I don't play the remainder of necromancer. It's why I specify I main reaper, and not necromancer.

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@SunCat.7839 said:I think someone really got bored and wanted attention... It was never a rivalry between necro's elites, especially present days when devs killed Scourge as class completely … just saying... but I am not that skilled to write a hole page for my idea :dizzy:

There has always been a strong divide in the necromancer community. I'm not seeking attention either.

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I wish warrior epecs would feel as different as necro especs, i dont see a problem with ppl liking one of them more than the other.

Warrior specs all feel almost the same, some more efficient than others.

@SunCat.7839 said:I think someone really got bored and wanted attention... It was never a rivalry between necro's elites, especially present days when devs killed Scourge as class completely … just saying... but I am not that skilled to write a hole page for my idea :dizzy:

I still see plenty of scourges in wvw... Its still one of THE meta picks.Killed lol, ppl tend to overreact way too much in this game.

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Personally, I like that Core, Reaper and Scourges play very differently and with different strengths.It has allowed theorycrafters like myself to craft and enjoy so many various builds and playstyles.

I don't think there was a divide among Necros per se, but more of how balances affected the core/shared traitlines too much and were not focused on the elite's traitline.Balances meant to address Scourge issues for example, spilled over to affect Reaper and Core.

I like that certain core/shared traits were split while balancing to address Scourge issues like Dhuumfire and Path of Corruption.Future balances should follow this route.Core, Reaper and Scourge are vastly different but should be treated equally.As much as possible, balances for elite specs should be done at their elite traitline/mechanic level and not affect the other elite/core.

I would also like that they don't pigeonhole us too much into a certain play-style.Like pushing Reaper into a power role or pushing Scourge into a support role.As much as possible, every spec should be able to build viably for different roles.That is what makes things varied and fun to me.

For the record, I still bear a grudge that Speed of Shadows Shroud 7 seconds cooldown trait was changed...likely to cater to Scourge...and left Reaper in sad waters.7 seconds shroud flashing was the funnest thing to happen to a Reaper and I'll miss those times.I hope they will have a re-look and add that 7 seconds shroud CD back somewhere in the Reaper's traitline....

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I personally never felt that there was a rivalry. Reaper and Scourge play very differently so they fit different play styles for different people. I personally always loved Reaper, from the moment of it's announcement. When Scourge came out, I loved it as well cause it was a nice change to Reaper, but since all the nerfs do its dps I am full time Reaper again though I do play support scourge quite a bit. I just wish core could compete with those 2.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"bluff.8962" said:"In PvP the story is quite a bit different. Up until recently the scourge kept out many of the other classes from being competitive because of how strong their aoe was. This mostly impacted melee classes and specs so Reaper was oppressed heavily by the scourge which only furthered the reaper's hatred for the elite spec. But the feeling was mutual as this was only the modern evolution of the old argument of the GW1 veteran vs New Age Necromancer." -Lily.1935

This, I mainly go PVP and Reaper was useless due to Scourge. The change to unholy matyr was the crushing blow. Blood line led by the old Unholy matyr gave me the sustain I needed and team cleanse (albeit small). I wish the Unholy matyr change would have increased condi transfer from mates to 3-5 and 2-3% life force per condi.

I quit November 2017 not to return until just after the Scourge changes. I main soulbeast now... Still not incredibly happy and still trying to find a fit for reaper in the face of holos and warriors.

This is the real story. PvE players don't give a kitten about necro balance or think it's weak in most cases because its coefficients and damage output are in fact lower than others' upper limits. The issue is that necro for a long time has hinged its viability on PvP-only mechanics like boon corruption and area control, making it potent in one format while undesirable in another. Scourge twists the knife and makes the necromancer (building scourge) downright game-ruining in PvP, while maintaining lower coefficients and damage in PvE, dividing the necro community while the rest of the game hates the spec/class.

People hate Scourge across all classes because it's just oppressive to play against, and boons are too big a part of PvP that there's just no way to deal with the threat they bring. Even before CC powercreep, there was enough aoeCC in the game where stripping stability was almost certain death for most melee classes making a push, which is why necro was meta in PvP and WvW from 2012 until PoF.

It's horrendously designed and isn't compatible with the rest of the game in the PvP modes and strictly doesn't work in PvE because it's incompatible there, too.Scourge needs its corruption capabilities removed in full, and should be reworked into a pure support/condi damage spec. It then becomes the inverse of reaper from a playstyle perspective, and can be made to be suitable in PvE (because support mechanics are compatible with PvE whereas corruption isn't in the current PvE landscape).

@"Nimon.7840" said:Anyone who says: I'm reaper main. Or "I'm scourge main" or even "I'm core main" isn't a true Necro main!

In my opinion maining a class means to play that class as a whole, not just parts of it

Nonsense. I HATE the playstyle scourge has, and only tolerated core necro for small windows of time until they nerfed the SR line, to which I now also dislike playing core. But between HoT and PoF I played more hours on Reaper than I did on thief, despite being very definitively a thief main before the elite specs existed by a margin of a few thousand hours. I unlocked Deadeye for no other reason than curiosity. I still don't really enjoy the spec for extended periods.

I say I'm a Reaper main because I fully recognize I don't play the remainder of necromancer. It's why I specify I main reaper, and not necromancer.

Personally my opinion is the design choices of ANET in general are awful. I feel like they made a huge mistake with how classes are balanced by balancing it around pvp. Not every player is a pvp player and while yes i do like some pvp, i don't think we should sacrifice all viability because you are too incompetent to balance classes.

I have a problem with scourge only in that it was a horrible elite by design just like how the way they designed chronomancer was horrible due to it being horribly overpowered and required to raid in the past.

Having boon corrupt being useless in pve raids and only viable in fractals. And before someone says "you can solo in open world" anyone can solo open world its like in WOW anyone can do open world, but what really matters is fractals and raids.

It would be as if you played everquest or wow and your class was only viable in pvp and open world when a great deal of content is in fractals and raids, and people don't like being limited.

Also i think the design is awful cause the holy trinity system works better. At least when you fit a role you know what you are supposed to be good at, and classes that are DPS are supposed to be on par with other dps.

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@"Axl.8924"I'd slightly modify what you said in case of the necromancer.

The necromancer is, in itself designed with PvP in mind and balanced to fit PvE. The reaper is designed to fit PvE but balanced with PvP in mind. Scourge tried to do both at the same time and failed.

The main issue of the necromancer and it's e-specs is that ANet desperatly cling to some mechanisms that have a huge difference of efficiency between PvE encounter and PvP encounter. ANet will never be able to balance the profession as long as those mechanisms aren't balanced in all gamemodes. Trying to balance the profession when the mechanisms themself aren't balanced is a bound to fail, it will just create complains based on the gamemode with no possible middle point.

Barrier need to be reworked, boon corruption/convertion need to be minimized or replaced by boon rip, there is a need for active defense out shroud for core necromancer, "soft" condition need to be more effective in PvE while being less effective in PvP... etc. The whole profession stand on an imbalanced foundation. Unless ANet start fixing the issue instead of protecting them, nothing will ever change.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:@"Axl.8924"I'd slightly modify what you said in case of the necromancer.

The necromancer is, in itself designed with PvP in mind and balanced to fit PvE. The reaper is designed to fit PvE but balanced with PvP in mind. Scourge tried to do both at the same time and failed.

The main issue of the necromancer and it's e-specs is that ANet desperatly cling to some mechanisms that have a huge difference of efficiency between PvE encounter and PvP encounter. ANet will never be able to balance the profession as long as those mechanisms aren't balanced in all gamemodes. Trying to balance the profession when the mechanisms themself aren't balanced is a bound to fail, it will just create complains based on the gamemode with no possible middle point.

Barrier need to be reworked, boon corruption/convertion need to be minimized or replaced by boon rip, there is a need for active defense out shroud for core necromancer, "soft" condition need to be more effective in PvE while being less effective in PvP... etc. The whole profession stand on an imbalanced foundation. Unless ANet start fixing the issue instead of protecting them, nothing will ever change.

its clear to me that every time we get nerfed with necro it revolves around WVW.

Also i don't know if i agree with nerfing boon corrupt and turning it into boon rip

How would you rework barrier? in pvp sure it causes problems but not sure if its op for pve.

See my problem is i feel like with boon corruption being as strong as it is with its AOES condis are a no go for necros. Balancing boon corrupts and condis is pretty nuts.At the same time boon corrupt can be useful in fractals tier 2 when enemies buff themselves as a offensive support.

I think WVW is where it possibly over performs, but im not completely convinced that the problem isn't that some classes simply have too much boonspam, and the possibility that the boon spam will simply become overkill with the nerf of necros.

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@Axl.8924 said:its clear to me that every time we get nerfed with necro it revolves around WVW.

It's WvW but, that can mostly be said to be due to fight against players. That's why I say PvP.

Also i don't know if i agree with nerfing boon corrupt and turning it into boon rip

Well, the necromancer gained to much boon corruption. In the vanilla game we used to have just 2 utility skills and path of corruption as boon corrupt. It was already more than enough. The necromancer also used to have as many boon riping as it had boon corrupt. From my point of view, the amount of boon corrupt should have stayed what it was, while the amount of boon riping could have been increased. It was safer to do this and it wouldn't have led us to the complains we got now about boon corrupt.

How would you rework barrier? in pvp sure it causes problems but not sure if its op for pve.

The issue with barrier is that they stacks. So the rework is to make sure that they don't.

See my problem is i feel like with boon corruption being as strong as it is with its AOES condis are a no go for necros. Balancing boon corrupts and condis is pretty nuts.

That's why I say that we need less boon corrupt and more boon riping effect. With less boon corrupts ANet can't claim boon corrupt as a condi dps tool and thus we have some room to ask for better condi skills.

Ultimately, PvP/WvW and PvE don't create similar environments. The necromancer rely heavily on PvP tools and this is why it is always lackluster in PvE. Because PvP tools need a PvP environment to shine while PvE tools can shine in every part of the game. If PvE gave an environment closer to what PvP offer, there would be no issue with tools like boon corruption or simply with the necromancer's design. The issue is that it doesn't. Mobs are fondamentally different from players and can disregard both boons and conditions, while players' efficiency rely heavily on them. Ultimately it's where the balance between the gamemodes is broken and can't be fixed with bandaids.

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