How to fix dps/elitist check on raids

[SeikeNz.3526]

just remove downed stats from raids, that will bring a new level of difficult also will punish players that go full dps and don't bring healers and tanks with them

[Blocki.4931]

What are you even talking about and how does it relate to the title?

People who care about that stuff don't really wipe anyway. That's why they want experienced people in the first place.

[maddoctor.2738]

Is this 2012 and talking about dungeons?

[Nephalem.8921]

That would increase toxicity instead of lowering it. You have no idea how raids work. Will also make scrapper mechanic completely useless. I mean even more. Do you even know how tanks in this game work?

[Ayrilana.1396]

@SeikeNz.3526 said:just remove downed stats from raids, that will bring a new level of difficult also will punish players that go full dps and don't bring healers and tanks with them

I take it that you haven’t raided before? Everyone brings a tank and healer(s). You should also see what full defensive stats actually provide over full offensive stats.

[Cyninja.2954]

It is kind of obvious that topic creator has never raided before in GW2.

FYI SeikeNz, regular raids are setup with:

• 2 healers (druid+x in general)
• 2 further supports bringing the other boons which the healers do not bring (chrono, renegade, firebrand, etc)
• 1 banner warrior (which is technically a intermediate between support and dps)
• 5 dps

Your suggestion makes absolutely no sense and would not in any way achieve whatever goal you were aiming for (I'm going to assume you believe that raids are run by 10 dps with no defensive gear without supports, that's how your suggestion reads). Suffice to say, you are hilariously misinformed.

[Henry.5713]

Removing all healers always fixes every single problem about balance or gameplay.

[Antycypator.9874]

Making things more difficult = people expect more from others and that's why some players are toxic.

[Astralporing.1957]

@SeikeNz.3526 said:just remove downed stats from raids, that will bring a new level of difficult also will punish players that go full dps and don't bring healers and tanks with them

1. people are already taking tanks and healers, if you haven't noticed
2. what you propose would make the requirements higher, not lower.

The only way to make people have lower/no requirements for raids is to lower the difficulty of the content. Only when players will no longer feel potential lower skill of others might cause problems with finishing the content will they stop using requirements meant to guarantee that basic skill level they think they need.And, frankly, raids currently are at a difficulty level where feeling thus is justified. As long as that part remains true, the checks will remain as well.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@SeikeNz.3526 said:just remove downed stats from raids, that will bring a new level of difficult also will punish players that go full dps and don't bring healers and tanks with them

• Try fighting VG with a player that pulls in the red orbs.
• Try fighting Sabetha where a player fails to move bomb off group or throw greens for cannons.
• Try fighting Sloth where a player with fixation doesn’t move the boss properly or drop poison away from group.
• Try fighting Mathias where a player doesn’t drop the well off group. Or more recently, a mirage that can’t reflect properly and constantly gets downed.
• Try fighting KC with a player that always attacks orb, doesn’t split from group when having the AoE, and/or properly position the projections when they have fixation.
• Try fighting Xera with someone that doesn’t use the shield properly when given the special action ability.
• Try fighting Deimos with a player that always steps on oils.
• Try fighting Dhuum with a player that doesn’t split when tethered to another player, explodes bomb on group, or doesn’t collect orbs quickly (including big one) when doing greens.
• Try fighting Largos where someone doesn’t drop pools at end of platform.

Those are a handful of mechanics that I can think of off the top of my head where an inexperienced player can greatly hinder the group or even cause a wipe. There are many others that affect a player’s individual performance such as constantly getting ported at VG. Having defensive stats doesn’t really help with any of these.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

give under achievers more rewards.

[dodgerrule.8739]

Making a clear redefined trinity in game would make raiding smoother.

[Nephalem.8921]

@dodgerrule.8739 said:Making a clear redefined trinity in game would make raiding smoother.

what do you mean with that? there is already dps and healers. Tank is just not necessary since there is no threat system so just the one with highest toughness has boss aggro. Dedicated tank that isn't a boon support or healer wont work or be fun. What would be the gameplay? Would just be a perma evade or block build with super high toughness.

[LordMorgul.9845]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:just remove downed stats from raids, that will bring a new level of difficult also will punish players that go full dps and don't bring healers and tanks with them

• Try fighting VG with a player that pulls in the red orbs.
• Try fighting Sabetha where a player fails to move bomb off group or throw greens for cannons.
• Try fighting Sloth where a player with fixation doesn’t move the boss properly or drop poison away from group.
• Try fighting Mathias where a player doesn’t drop the well off group. Or more recently, a mirage that can’t reflect properly and constantly gets downed.
• Try fighting KC with a player that always attacks orb, doesn’t split from group when having the AoE, and/or properly position the projections when they have fixation.
• Try fighting Xera with someone that doesn’t use the shield properly when given the special action ability.
• Try fighting Deimos with a player that always steps on oils.
• Try fighting Dhuum with a player that doesn’t split when tethered to another player, explodes
  bomb
  on group, or doesn’t collect orbs quickly (including big one) when doing greens.
• Try fighting Largos where someone doesn’t drop pools at end of platform.

Those are a handful of mechanics that I can think of off the top of my head where an inexperienced player can greatly hinder the group or even cause a wipe. There are many others that affect a player’s individual performance such as constantly getting ported at VG. Having defensive stats doesn’t really help with any of these.

ty u make my day i'm laughting loudly XD

[dodgerrule.8739]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@dodgerrule.8739 said:Making a clear redefined trinity in game would make raiding smoother.

what do you mean with that? there is already dps and healers. Tank is just not necessary since there is no threat system so just the one with highest toughness has boss aggro. Dedicated tank that isn't a boon support or healer wont work or be fun. What would be the gameplay? Would just be a perma evade or block build with super high toughness.

Threat is generated based on highest toughness.Dps is just a crap storm to master so 80% of players play warriors and healer and tanks aren’t that common even though they’re super easy to do

[Ayrilana.1396]

@LordMorgul.9845 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:just remove downed stats from raids, that will bring a new level of difficult also will punish players that go full dps and don't bring healers and tanks with them

• Try fighting VG with a player that pulls in the red orbs.
• Try fighting Sabetha where a player fails to move bomb off group or throw greens for cannons.
• Try fighting Sloth where a player with fixation doesn’t move the boss properly or drop poison away from group.
• Try fighting Mathias where a player doesn’t drop the well off group. Or more recently, a mirage that can’t reflect properly and constantly gets downed.
• Try fighting KC with a player that always attacks orb, doesn’t split from group when having the AoE, and/or properly position the projections when they have fixation.
• Try fighting Xera with someone that doesn’t use the shield properly when given the special action ability.
• Try fighting Deimos with a player that always steps on oils.
• Try fighting Dhuum with a player that doesn’t split when tethered to another player, explodes
  bomb
  on group, or doesn’t collect orbs quickly (including big one) when doing greens.
• Try fighting Largos where someone doesn’t drop pools at end of platform.

Those are a handful of mechanics that I can think of off the top of my head where an inexperienced player can greatly hinder the group or even cause a wipe. There are many others that affect a player’s individual performance such as constantly getting ported at VG. Having defensive stats doesn’t really help with any of these.

ty u make my day i'm laughting loudly XD

No problem?

[Dadnir.5038]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:give under achievers more rewards.

Give more reward to players that kill the boss after the time limit (1 gold per extra minute, caped to 5 golds), give achievement when there is no dead in the raid and the boss is killed after the time limit (1 achievement per extra minute, caped to 5 minutes, Last achievement We've seen [boss name]'s everything, Wing achievement: We've cleaned [wing]!).

[Fueki.4753]

The easiest way to prevent DPS Checks would be for Anet to simply no longer allow the use of DPS meters.But that's not going to happen.

[Virdo.1540]

@Fueki.4753 said:The easiest way to prevent DPS Checks would be for Anet to simply no longer allow the use of DPS meters.But that's not going to happen.

+1They said they wont allow addons , so they shouldnt allow such

Then they can also allow addons where u can see others gear and traits too

[Cyninja.2954]

@Fueki.4753 said:The easiest way to prevent DPS Checks would be for Anet to simply no longer allow the use of DPS meters.But that's not going to happen.

So, does the sun stop rising only because you close your eyes?

Dps checks without dps meters would simply revert back to what they were before: random guesses as to who is to blame followed by removal of non meta classes first. Damage required for success does not change only because raid damage is not monitored.

The net result would be:

• less chances for random people to get accepted into groups and more networks forming as to ensure the players are of quality (aka guilds, discords, etc.)
• mandatory golem benchmarks as signs of being able to perform rotations
• even more kill proof demands in hope to get more experienced players
• even more meta class requirements in hope that performance is better than on non meta classes

Dps meters allow for a fair comparison of players participating. It both allows less experienced or less active players with good skill to participate as well as show up underpferoming players (no matter how many KP of kills they have already). It also allows players of different classes to get taken along as long as their performance is sufficient (which it can be on nearly every class at any boss).

People need to stop trying to "fix" things by reducing information. The information availability is not the core issue for the problems. It merely sheds a light on the problems: vast disparity in players performance.

@Virdo.1540 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:The easiest way to prevent DPS Checks would be for Anet to simply no longer allow the use of DPS meters.But that's not going to happen.

+1They said they wont allow addons , so they shouldnt allow such

Then they can also allow addons where u can see others gear and traits too

That is a blanket false statement. Any addon which allows gear or build inspection is currently absolutely not allowed.

Also gear is not a singular factor for performance. It is one aspect of it but class knowledge, rotation understanding and experience are just as important. As a matter of fact, most players are free to run any gear they want, as long as they meet the expectations of the group. Which is doable on multiple different gear sets in mid tier groups.

[Xar.6279]

Or just remove veteran raiders from the game :P

[Asum.4960]

@Xar.6279 said:Or just remove veteran raiders from the game :P

Anet is hard at work making that a reality, with lack and content and the Template fiasco.

Removing things like DPS Meters would pretty much make everything worse which those advocating for their removal are complaining about, much like Cyninja explained.

[Fir.7932]

But you do realise there are veteran players and DPS racing with other veteran players is the only challenge and the most fun thing to do in the game for us?

[Henry.5713]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Xar.6279 said:Or just remove veteran raiders from the game :P

Anet is hard at work making that a reality, with lack and content and the Template fiasco.

Removing things like DPS Meters would pretty much make everything worse which those advocating for their removal are complaining about, much like Cyninja explained.

@Virdo.1540 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:The easiest way to prevent DPS Checks would be for Anet to simply no longer allow the use of DPS meters.But that's not going to happen.

+1They said they wont allow addons , so they shouldnt allow such

Then they can also allow addons where u can see others gear and traits too

Banning the use of DPS meters would certainly be equal to skipping right to the last nail in the coffin as far as killing off raiding as a whole is concerned. Those few poor victims of elitism who are supposedly kept from raiding by these DPS checks will no longer find any groups in the first place. Don't see how this would help them in the long run.

Banning the templates side of Arc is annoying even if not entirely surprising. They said they would allow it until there was an ingame feature from what I remember. The official alternative they are providing us with is rather lacking, not arguing with that. I personally don't even mind the price tag but that's another story. Would mind it even less if the feature had everything I wanted. That said, build templates are and will always be just a convenience tool. Great convenience but just a convenience in the end.

However and no matter how weird this sounds, the meter and logging features of Arc are a different story. They provide the semi-hardcore - hardcore community with this very specific type of content. It is more interesting raid content than the developers ever could or are willing give us.Think about it this way - all we have left is to review raid logs for tiny details to possibly improve bosses we have run a thousand times already, to figure out new compositions or slight variantions on builds and simply to allow us to discuss and theorycraf further min-maxing. And again, that is all there is left with this lack of content and new wings being released which hardly take you a week to finish, CMs and achievements done and all that after you wait for year. Take DPS meters away and the few remaining dedicated players will be gone. Certainly the case for me when logs and doing silly min-maxing is still fun. At least for now.

[shejesa.3712]

True, let's delete downstate. Want to see how the completion rate for even VG drops from a few % to sub 1?People who are skilled and therefore can allow themselves to be elitist... well, we will stay the same way because we don't get downed nearly as often as regular pugs.

But, sure, have fun pushing great ideas you've definitely put in more than 30s to think through. /s