Upcoming ele changes - October 2019

[supreme.3602]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684

I hate to burst your bubble, but it is true. I've been raiding with support warriors since the latest patch and I've been out-cleansing them all the time, but there are also many variables during a fight that can affect the outcome, so that may also play a part, or it could just be me.

Again with the mathematics lol

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:First I was like "wow, -33% on singularity ", then in game -33% is not for the affinity/overload CD. Still stuck in 20sec CD after cast...It's a small buff to fresh air tempest, otherwise condi/support it's ... meh?!

Condi is also better because the new GM trait also affects condi damage. 20 sec cd is only affected by arcane spec.

Support builds used heal on aura anyway, they just received extra concentration.

Of course, but in fact condi only won +7% dmg, otherwise the -33% is useless anyway.For support, I expected we could spam the water overload, but no.

That would be rather broken considering that it targets 10 people. 7% damage and 2 less sec on waiting for overload is still a lot better than none of those.

It wouldn't because warrior has much more condi clean now also it would be 33% on 15 s = 10 sec for dps builds this is maybe broken someone need to test it.

You're saying that like ele's only purpose is condi cleanse. Where's warrs 10 man ranged CC or 1200 range on support? Every class has its niche.

While I know some people who thought this its the opposite heal and boons + cc + aura are also important. Heal Tempest has a lot of cc in wvw . I can't even tell what parts of wate roverlaod getting to 10 and which to 5 because they made it so confusing.

All of it is 10 man.

Water overload is 10 targets, but some additional effects are either 5 or 6. Powerful auras triggered by OW is 6 targets, and then other things like healing ripple apply only to 5 when using OW.

Just wanted to clear that up.

And ya @Lord of the Fire.6870 it’s true that warrior now has the same if not more condition cleanse than tempest. But realistically condi cleanse war isnt going to be meta by a long shot. There are reasons why but mainly it’s because the current warrior meta is still better.

Aside from these things, Overload earth is also one of the best Cc’s on tempest, can inflict over 200 conditions with a single use and 40 seconds of immobilize, as it also effects 10 targets...with or without a niche, I can see why the ability to spam overloads would approach dangerous balance levels if the cool down were reduced even further, no matter how much I would like the cooldowns to be reduced.

Tempests can out-cleanse a support warrior with ease.

I hate to burst your bubble but this is not exactly true...

I did some back of the envelop calculations, and fundamentally, Tactics warrior cleanses quiete a bit more than the meta-battle Ele.

If the Ele is FULLY specked into cleansing, then tempest can actually compete with warrior on an equal level, and in most cases probably beats warrior if used to it's fullest extent by a somewhat small margin. Out cleansing with ease though? I doubt it.

If you are actually curious about the math here it is:

Elementalist

Meta Battle+40 / 17CD = Overload Water+10 / 20CD = Wash the Pain Away

Metabattle Ele :423+90 = 513 cleanses per 3 minutes

Fully Traited Cleanse Ele+56 / 20CD = Overload Water+5 / 20CD = Wash the Pain Away+20 / 25CD = Flash Freeze+10 / 35CD = Aftershock+10 / 75CD = Rebound+10 / 25CD = Feel the Burn

Cleanse Ele :504+45+175+50+20+70 = 864 per 3 minutes

Warrior+5 / 20CD = Shake it off (Trait)+30 / 40CD = Shake it off (Skill)+30 / 15CD = Charge+30 / 20CD = Call of Valor

Tactics War :45+135+360+270 = 810 per 3 minutes

These Rough Estimates only include abilities that you can quantify, and exclude unquantifiable cleanses, such as Transmuting aura's, Stop Drop and Roll, and the majority of Aura's one can apply when using Powerful Aura, as well as Resistance uptime from Call of Valor. If you are wondering about why it's unquantifiable, it's because i was too lazy to do the calculations for each potential time period for each individual aura cleanse. one can assume that if you were to use all your aura's available to you constantly on rotation, then the cleanse Ele wins out by +6 in cleanses, with additional +12's in transmutes per aura per cooldown. Since this is pretty hard to calculate on a per cooldown basis, you just have to go and do that calculation on your own, under the assumption that you will indeed be able to use all aura's available to you, and also assuming said aura's have associated transmutes with the weapon being used, which varies from build to build.

Also to note, these calculations ignore runes, sigil procs or any other effects that aren't inherent to the class.

Most shouts from ele doesn't clean condis... regeneration from staff doing it with trait and 'Wash the Pain Away' does it.

I completely forgot about staff 5 actually. and Wash the pain away doesn't cleanse that many condi's. If you look more carefully at those numbers, overload water is the main thing that cleanses conditions....and shouts do cleanse conditions when traited for based on the aura's they give (When used with Invigorating Torrents and Cleansing Water....as well as Fire Traitline).

As for Staff 5, i'm not exactly sure how many conditions it's supposed to cleanse. It's supposed to remove 15 conditions over the course of 6 seconds (and across 5 people) but you also put out regeneration, so i'm assuming that you pulse out an extra 5 cleanses per pulse, for a total of 30 cleanses per use, which over the course of 3 minutes would yield to you an extra 150 conditions cleansed. Now it says it stacks 3 regenerations in the descriptor (something i never really understood in full) so i don't know if cleansing water count's each stack as an application to trigger 3 cleanses (which i HIGHLY doubt) but ya so i'm just going to not grant it charity and just use it's lowest potential value of 150 conditions.

So ya, staff 5 is probably the 2nd best condition cleanse on ele's kit. completely forgot about that thanks.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"Dahir.4158" said:@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684"

I hate to burst your bubble, but it is true. I've been raiding with support warriors since the latest patch and I've been out-cleansing them all the time, but there are also many variables during a fight that can affect the outcome, so that may also play a part, or it could just be me.

Again with the mathematics lol

Uhh let's please not have this argument again. The last time , you clearly didn't understand how condition cleanse works in a WvW setting...

Just because you "personally" cleanse more in your raids means absolutely nothing. Like you just said yourself just now, there are many variables, (one of which is condition cleanse real estate) which vastly judge how well particular cleansers cleanse conditions during particular fights. You aren't playing in ideal scenarios... you are playing in settings where players are half afk, mashing auto attack trying to tag enemies for loot bags.

These maths define in IDEAL settings, how each build can perform at a maximum level. understand?

[supreme.3602]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:@JusticeRetroHunter.7684

I hate to burst your bubble, but it is true. I've been raiding with support warriors since the latest patch and I've been out-cleansing them all the time, but there are also many variables during a fight that can affect the outcome, so that may also play a part, or it could just be me.

Again with the mathematics lol

Uhh let's please not have this argument again. The last time , you clearly didn't understand how condition cleanse works in a WvW setting...

Just because you "personally" cleanse more in your raids means absolutely nothing. Like you just said yourself just now, there are many variables, (one of which is condition cleanse real estate) which vastly judge how well particular cleansers cleanse conditions during particular fights. You aren't playing in ideal scenarios... you are playing in settings where players are half afk, mashing auto attack trying to tag enemies for loot bags.

These maths define in IDEAL settings, how each build can perform at a maximum level. understand?

Well, my friend, that's where you're wrong. I don't play with random pugs. I kill guilds/blobs with my guild raid.

Yeah, I did say that there are variables, but said variables can't happen every fight, can they? So, that means it doesn't matter which scenario I'm playing in, because I'll still be the one cleansing the most.

I'm not starting an argument with you. Just stating the facts, mate.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:@JusticeRetroHunter.7684

I hate to burst your bubble, but it is true. I've been raiding with support warriors since the latest patch and I've been out-cleansing them all the time, but there are also many variables during a fight that can affect the outcome, so that may also play a part, or it could just be me.

Again with the mathematics lol

Uhh let's please not have this argument again. The last time , you clearly didn't understand how condition cleanse works in a WvW setting...

Just because you "personally" cleanse more in your raids means absolutely nothing. Like you just said yourself just now, there are many variables, (one of which is condition cleanse real estate) which vastly judge how well particular cleansers cleanse conditions during particular fights. You aren't playing in ideal scenarios... you are playing in settings where players are half afk, mashing auto attack trying to tag enemies for loot bags.

These maths define in IDEAL settings, how each build can perform at a maximum level. understand?

Well, my friend, that's where you're wrong. I don't play with random pugs. I kill guilds/blobs with my guild raid.

Yeah, I did say that there are variables, but said variables can't happen every fight, can they? So, that means it doesn't matter which scenario I'm playing in, because I'll still be the one cleansing the most.

I'm not starting an argument with you. Just stating the facts, mate.

“I’d rather rule in hell, than serve in heaven. To be at the bottom of the food chain up there. But down here? We can live like kings.”

-Mahershala Alifrom Battle Angel Alita

To break down the quote for you in this context, you are content with your performance by choosing to remain ignorant of the true potential you could attain that lies beyond self imposed restraints because you chose to remain in an environment that caters to your level of performance.

You can be cleansing the most in a sea of players that auto attack for bags...or cleanse the least in a sea of players that fight for the top cleanse spot. Choose to be “a king on earth, or a servant in heaven.”

[supreme.3602]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:@JusticeRetroHunter.7684

I hate to burst your bubble, but it is true. I've been raiding with support warriors since the latest patch and I've been out-cleansing them all the time, but there are also many variables during a fight that can affect the outcome, so that may also play a part, or it could just be me.

Again with the mathematics lol

Uhh let's please not have this argument again. The last time , you clearly didn't understand how condition cleanse works in a WvW setting...

Just because you "personally" cleanse more in your raids means absolutely nothing. Like you just said yourself just now, there are many variables, (one of which is condition cleanse real estate) which vastly judge how well particular cleansers cleanse conditions during particular fights. You aren't playing in ideal scenarios... you are playing in settings where players are half afk, mashing auto attack trying to tag enemies for loot bags.

These maths define in IDEAL settings, how each build can perform at a maximum level. understand?

Well, my friend, that's where you're wrong. I don't play with random pugs. I kill guilds/blobs with my guild raid.

Yeah, I did say that there are variables, but said variables can't happen every fight, can they? So, that means it doesn't matter which scenario I'm playing in, because I'll still be the one cleansing the most.

I'm not starting an argument with you. Just stating the facts, mate.

“I’d rather rule in hell, than serve in heaven. To be at the bottom of the food chain up there. But down here? We can live like kings.”

-Mahershala Alifrom Battle Angel Alita

To break down the quote for you in this context, you are content with your performance by choosing to remain ignorant of the true potential you could attain that lies beyond self imposed restraints because you chose to remain in an environment that caters to your level of performance.

You can be cleansing the most in a sea of players that auto attack for bags...or cleanse the least in a sea of players that fight for the top cleanse spot. Choose to be “a king on earth, or a servant in heaven.”

That's a nice quote you have there, but it's a shame that it doesn't apply here.

Tell me, what is my true potential, and what are my self-imposed restraints?

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:@JusticeRetroHunter.7684

I hate to burst your bubble, but it is true. I've been raiding with support warriors since the latest patch and I've been out-cleansing them all the time, but there are also many variables during a fight that can affect the outcome, so that may also play a part, or it could just be me.

Again with the mathematics lol

Uhh let's please not have this argument again. The last time , you clearly didn't understand how condition cleanse works in a WvW setting...

Just because you "personally" cleanse more in your raids means absolutely nothing. Like you just said yourself just now, there are many variables, (one of which is condition cleanse real estate) which vastly judge how well particular cleansers cleanse conditions during particular fights. You aren't playing in ideal scenarios... you are playing in settings where players are half afk, mashing auto attack trying to tag enemies for loot bags.

These maths define in IDEAL settings, how each build can perform at a maximum level. understand?

Well, my friend, that's where you're wrong. I don't play with random pugs. I kill guilds/blobs with my guild raid.

Yeah, I did say that there are variables, but said variables can't happen every fight, can they? So, that means it doesn't matter which scenario I'm playing in, because I'll still be the one cleansing the most.

I'm not starting an argument with you. Just stating the facts, mate.

“I’d rather rule in hell, than serve in heaven. To be at the bottom of the food chain up there. But down here? We can live like kings.”

-Mahershala Alifrom Battle Angel Alita

To break down the quote for you in this context, you are content with your performance by choosing to remain ignorant of the true potential you could attain that lies beyond self imposed restraints because you chose to remain in an environment that caters to your level of performance.

You can be cleansing the most in a sea of players that auto attack for bags...or cleanse the least in a sea of players that fight for the top cleanse spot. Choose to be “a king on earth, or a servant in heaven.”

That's a nice quote you have there, but it's a shame that it doesn't apply here.

Tell me, what is my true potential, and what are my self-imposed restraints?

Your self imposed restraints firstly is ignoring factual data. I don’t just pull these numbers from the mystical ether. The calculation above is literately an estimate of the maximal limit to how much said class/build can cleanse (albeit not exactly the max since I’ve excluded a few abilities, but generally speaking they can be considered the upper limit.)

These calculations aren’t that hard to evaluate on your own, and choosing to ignore it simply because you think you are performing well without knowing them is a restraint your placing on yourself which hampers your ability to perform to a greater potential

Not only this, but knowing the potential of other builds and classes and setups shows you how to compare to your own class/build and setup. This can then lead to a better understanding as to why some setups are better than others even if they are roughly the same.

[Botinhas.2018]

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:is a restraint your placing on yourself

"Your" is used out of context here; you are or you're is the appropiate term you are looking for

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:First I was like "wow, -33% on singularity ", then in game -33% is not for the affinity/overload CD. Still stuck in 20sec CD after cast...It's a small buff to fresh air tempest, otherwise condi/support it's ... meh?!

Condi is also better because the new GM trait also affects condi damage. 20 sec cd is only affected by arcane spec.

Support builds used heal on aura anyway, they just received extra concentration.

Of course, but in fact condi only won +7% dmg, otherwise the -33% is useless anyway.For support, I expected we could spam the water overload, but no.

That would be rather broken considering that it targets 10 people. 7% damage and 2 less sec on waiting for overload is still a lot better than none of those.

It wouldn't because warrior has much more condi clean now also it would be 33% on 15 s = 10 sec for dps builds this is maybe broken someone need to test it.

You're saying that like ele's only purpose is condi cleanse. Where's warrs 10 man ranged CC or 1200 range on support? Every class has its niche.

While I know some people who thought this its the opposite heal and boons + cc + aura are also important. Heal Tempest has a lot of cc in wvw . I can't even tell what parts of wate roverlaod getting to 10 and which to 5 because they made it so confusing.

All of it is 10 man.

Water overload is 10 targets, but some additional effects are either 5 or 6. Powerful auras triggered by OW is 6 targets, and then other things like healing ripple apply only to 5 when using OW.

Just wanted to clear that up.

And ya @Lord of the Fire.6870 it’s true that warrior now has the same if not more condition cleanse than tempest. But realistically condi cleanse war isnt going to be meta by a long shot. There are reasons why but mainly it’s because the current warrior meta is still better.

Aside from these things, Overload earth is also one of the best Cc’s on tempest, can inflict over 200 conditions with a single use and 40 seconds of immobilize, as it also effects 10 targets...with or without a niche, I can see why the ability to spam overloads would approach dangerous balance levels if the cool down were reduced even further, no matter how much I would like the cooldowns to be reduced.

Tempests can out-cleanse a support warrior with ease.

I hate to burst your bubble but this is not exactly true...

I did some back of the envelop calculations, and fundamentally, Tactics warrior cleanses quiete a bit more than the meta-battle Ele.

If the Ele is FULLY specked into cleansing, then tempest can actually compete with warrior on an equal level, and in most cases probably beats warrior if used to it's fullest extent by a somewhat small margin. Out cleansing with ease though? I doubt it.

If you are actually curious about the math here it is:

Elementalist

Meta Battle+40 / 17CD = Overload Water+10 / 20CD = Wash the Pain Away

Metabattle Ele :423+90 = 513 cleanses per 3 minutes

Fully Traited Cleanse Ele+56 / 20CD = Overload Water+5 / 20CD = Wash the Pain Away+20 / 25CD = Flash Freeze+10 / 35CD = Aftershock+10 / 75CD = Rebound+10 / 25CD = Feel the Burn

Cleanse Ele :504+45+175+50+20+70 = 864 per 3 minutes

Warrior+5 / 20CD = Shake it off (Trait)+30 / 40CD = Shake it off (Skill)+30 / 15CD = Charge+30 / 20CD = Call of Valor

Tactics War :45+135+360+270 = 810 per 3 minutes

These Rough Estimates only include abilities that you can quantify, and exclude unquantifiable cleanses, such as Transmuting aura's, Stop Drop and Roll, and the majority of Aura's one can apply when using Powerful Aura, as well as Resistance uptime from Call of Valor. If you are wondering about why it's unquantifiable, it's because i was too lazy to do the calculations for each potential time period for each individual aura cleanse. one can assume that if you were to use all your aura's available to you constantly on rotation, then the cleanse Ele wins out by +6 in cleanses, with additional +12's in transmutes per aura per cooldown. Since this is pretty hard to calculate on a per cooldown basis, you just have to go and do that calculation on your own, under the assumption that you will indeed be able to use all aura's available to you, and also assuming said aura's have associated transmutes with the weapon being used, which varies from build to build.

Also to note, these calculations ignore runes, sigil procs or any other effects that aren't inherent to the class.

Most shouts from ele doesn't clean condis... regeneration from staff doing it with trait and 'Wash the Pain Away' does it.

I completely forgot about staff 5 actually. and Wash the pain away doesn't cleanse that many condi's. If you look more carefully at those numbers, overload water is the main thing that cleanses conditions....and shouts do cleanse conditions when traited for based on the aura's they give (When used with Invigorating Torrents and Cleansing Water....as well as Fire Traitline).

As for Staff 5, i'm not exactly sure how many conditions it's supposed to cleanse. It's supposed to remove 15 conditions over the course of 6 seconds (and across 5 people) but you also put out regeneration, so i'm assuming that you pulse out an extra 5 cleanses per pulse, for a total of 30 cleanses per use, which over the course of 3 minutes would yield to you an extra 150 conditions cleansed. Now it says it stacks 3 regenerations in the descriptor (something i never really understood in full) so i don't know if cleansing water count's each stack as an application to trigger 3 cleanses (which i HIGHLY doubt) but ya so i'm just going to not grant it charity and just use it's lowest potential value of 150 conditions.

So ya, staff 5 is probably the 2nd best condition cleanse on ele's kit. completely forgot about that thanks.

I thought so it is in a trait line I don't use 'Smothering Aura' it is in the fire trait line ... I also noticed they removed the condition cleansing on doge .The way I use is a lot of heal + cc in wvw you are tanky enough to go near enough to enemies. You have static field 10 cc unblockable , I do also share aura and doing air overload while charging in direction of the enemy = 6 shock auras which is also an unblockable cc then I have Arcane Shockwave 2x5 cc targets and then Aftershock with 10 targets again

[Aria Lliane.8693]

@Jski.6180 said:@Aria Lliane.8693 Nothing your using effects any thing from the update for spvp out side say swiftness on overloads your simply just doing with out.

The Trait that was removed from the game should have a suitable replacement for Supports. The remaining Support Tempest trait available that is most promising is really weak and cant do its job properly. So not promising at all. All i use was affected by the update, cause all my build had to change.

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Aria Lliane.8693" said:(...)

You can’t really be full heal ele in spvp. It’s not like WvW where you can have nearly double the healing mods, double the healing power, and double the amount of allies you can heal.

So ya for you also shouldn’t be running full shouts either. Tbh it’s your build here that’s not optimized for the game mode.

You need magnet shield, mist form, and prob teleport cantrap. You’d also need to lose earth and go arcane so you can run staff for double geyser Rez, which is where you’ll really shine as a support in spvp. You can also opt to go air instead to spam air overloads. All you need is intelligence sigil so that when you use air overload it’s instantly off cd no matter what u do. That way you can provide more lightning auras for allies.

Anyway ya pure heal ele is best in WvW where you can actually attain the stats to accomplish it. Spvp small scale it just doesn’t scale well enough, you need to go support hybrid.

Then I've done my job, proving "be full heal ele in spvp" give sh*t heal amounts.Its proven an Ele can only be one thing to be good, and that's the very definition of #meta

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"Aria Lliane.8693" said:Then I've done my job, proving "be full heal ele in spvp" give kitten heal amounts.Its proven an Ele can only be one thing to be good, and that's the very definition of #meta

Maybe there was a misunderstanding...but nobody said you could or should go full heal ele in spvp....i think everyone already knew that full heal ele in spvp is impossible.

All anyone said here was the Elemental Bastion is the best support skill for Tempest (Better than former imbued Melodies). Imbued Melodies was just simply not that useful in MOST situations. Sure maybe it was useful to you in spvp with an opposing deadeye on the enemy team...but you could have totally just used overload earth, Magnetic Aura, Magnetic Shield or Aftershock and did the same thing that IM did.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Botinhas.2018 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:is a restraint your placing on yourself

"Your" is used out of context here; you are or you're is the appropiate term you are looking for

Funny. You spelled “appropriate” wrong and you missed a period at the end of your sentence.

Maybe you were just trying to be funny or something...idk. But you should learn to not care about semantics and typos, when what’s really important is the subtext and substance of the discussion.