The Mesmer/Necromancer/Elementalist identity may diminish in the coming centuries — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The Mesmer/Necromancer/Elementalist identity may diminish in the coming centuries

Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭

They managed to survive the general martialization of spellcasting professions. But as interdisciplinary practices grow, and magi-tech becomes more advanced, what keeps millennia old arts fresh? Elite specializations? Psychology couldn't retain neuroscience. Barber-surgeons couldn't keep surgery.

For instance there may come a time when Mirages aren't Mesmers, just as Guardians aren't Monks.

Comments

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't think the examples you cite are really comparable. Those splits happened because a substantive split occurred in methodology between psychology (mostly based on studying people and their behaviours) and neuroscience (directly studying the brain structure using advanced technology), let along between cutting hair and increasingly advanced modern medicine.

    Elite specialisations are something that I'd consider to be more aligned with considering things like quantum mechanics, relativity, and fluid dynamics, which are all branches of physics. They're different, but they still all fall under the same general umbrella.

    What's more likely to erode the distinctions is that the Bloodstones are no longer forcing distinct splits between the schools, allowing the lines between them to fade and blur. Thus far, the professions have survived as distinct entities due to a mix of tradition and a certain element of danger in experimentation, but sooner or later people are going to start finding their own combinations. What's likely to kill, say, mesmer is a profession isn't going to be subdivision into specialisations, but somebody coming up with a hybrid of mesmer and some other profession(s) that leads people to start going "Do we call this thing a mesmer? Or the other profession name? Kitten it we'll just give it a new name". Especially if this new hybrid profession proves to be more popular than traditional mesmerism.

    Which is, essentially, what happened to guardians. Guardians mostly came from monks, but have so much stuff from other professions mixed in that they just aren't recognisable as monks any more. They're not a specialisation of monks, they're doing something substantially different from traditional monks, albeit using a similar power source.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I don't think the examples you cite are really comparable. Those splits happened because a substantive split occurred in methodology between psychology (mostly based on studying people and their behaviours) and neuroscience (directly studying the brain structure using advanced technology), let along between cutting hair and increasingly advanced modern medicine.

    Elite specialisations are something that I'd consider to be more aligned with considering things like quantum mechanics, relativity, and fluid dynamics, which are all branches of physics. They're different, but they still all fall under the same general umbrella.

    What's more likely to erode the distinctions is that the Bloodstones are no longer forcing distinct splits between the schools, allowing the lines between them to fade and blur. Thus far, the professions have survived as distinct entities due to a mix of tradition and a certain element of danger in experimentation, but sooner or later people are going to start finding their own combinations. What's likely to kill, say, mesmer is a profession isn't going to be subdivision into specialisations, but somebody coming up with a hybrid of mesmer and some other profession(s) that leads people to start going "Do we call this thing a mesmer? Or the other profession name? Kitten it we'll just give it a new name". Especially if this new hybrid profession proves to be more popular than traditional mesmerism.

    Which is, essentially, what happened to guardians. Guardians mostly came from monks, but have so much stuff from other professions mixed in that they just aren't recognisable as monks any more. They're not a specialisation of monks, they're doing something substantially different from traditional monks, albeit using a similar power source.

    This.
    Also i believe that guards evolved from the infamous k/möter builds in gw1.
    In German krieger=warrior and mönch=monk

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2019

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I don't think the examples you cite are really comparable. Those splits happened because a substantive split occurred in methodology between psychology (mostly based on studying people and their behaviours) and neuroscience (directly studying the brain structure using advanced technology), let along between cutting hair and increasingly advanced modern medicine.

    Elite specialisations are something that I'd consider to be more aligned with considering things like quantum mechanics, relativity, and fluid dynamics, which are all branches of physics. They're different, but they still all fall under the same general umbrella.

    What's more likely to erode the distinctions is that the Bloodstones are no longer forcing distinct splits between the schools, allowing the lines between them to fade and blur. Thus far, the professions have survived as distinct entities due to a mix of tradition and a certain element of danger in experimentation, but sooner or later people are going to start finding their own combinations. What's likely to kill, say, mesmer is a profession isn't going to be subdivision into specialisations, but somebody coming up with a hybrid of mesmer and some other profession(s) that leads people to start going "Do we call this thing a mesmer? Or the other profession name? Kitten it we'll just give it a new name". Especially if this new hybrid profession proves to be more popular than traditional mesmerism.

    Which is, essentially, what happened to guardians. Guardians mostly came from monks, but have so much stuff from other professions mixed in that they just aren't recognisable as monks any more. They're not a specialisation of monks, they're doing something substantially different from traditional monks, albeit using a similar power source.

    I may be wrong on the history here, but neither modern surgery nor neuroscience arose through subdivision. They are interdisciplinary fields that underwent/are currently experiencing professionalization.

    Edit: Mirages have translated techniques from thieves to mesmer. They are already shadowstepping instead of teleporting, the next step could be incorporating actual shadow magic. Then earth prayers from dervish. Etc. Eventually you could end up with something that twists light and space but is not a Mesmer. Just as Guardians bend light and fire but are not monks.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That's kinda my point. Surgery was associated with barbers once because barbers were, essentially, the least bad people to do the job, being equipped with sharp blades and having experience with using them in a carefully controlled manner. As surgical techniques became more advanced, though, surgery became more and more complex such that that became the primary role... and, conversely, barbers became less professional as shaving technology improved. A modern barber does not generally need the fine blade control that a barber a few centuries ago did.

    However, when you have a spellcasting profession: a magic-user is already an expert. A mirage or chronomancer versus a mesmer is like the distinction between a someone working on quantum teleportation or dark matter theory versus a physicist.

    The situation you describe could happen, but that's something I'd already stated:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    What's more likely to erode the distinctions is that the Bloodstones are no longer forcing distinct splits between the schools, allowing the lines between them to fade and blur. Thus far, the professions have survived as distinct entities due to a mix of tradition and a certain element of danger in experimentation, but sooner or later people are going to start finding their own combinations. What's likely to kill, say, mesmer is a profession isn't going to be subdivision into specialisations, but somebody coming up with a hybrid of mesmer and some other profession(s) that leads people to start going "Do we call this thing a mesmer? Or the other profession name? Kitten it we'll just give it a new name". Especially if this new hybrid profession proves to be more popular than traditional mesmerism.

    Elite specialisations as currently presented, however, are subdivisions rather than anything like this. A mirage, for instance, is at most the equivalent of a Me/A from GW1 - not enough of a shift to represent a move into another discipline.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2019

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    That's kinda my point. Surgery was associated with barbers once because barbers were, essentially, the least bad people to do the job, being equipped with sharp blades and having experience with using them in a carefully controlled manner. As surgical techniques became more advanced, though, surgery became more and more complex such that that became the primary role... and, conversely, barbers became less professional as shaving technology improved. A modern barber does not generally need the fine blade control that a barber a few centuries ago did.

    However, when you have a spellcasting profession: a magic-user is already an expert. A mirage or chronomancer versus a mesmer is like the distinction between a someone working on quantum teleportation or dark matter theory versus a physicist.

    The situation you describe could happen, but that's something I'd already stated:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    What's more likely to erode the distinctions is that the Bloodstones are no longer forcing distinct splits between the schools, allowing the lines between them to fade and blur. Thus far, the professions have survived as distinct entities due to a mix of tradition and a certain element of danger in experimentation, but sooner or later people are going to start finding their own combinations. What's likely to kill, say, mesmer is a profession isn't going to be subdivision into specialisations, but somebody coming up with a hybrid of mesmer and some other profession(s) that leads people to start going "Do we call this thing a mesmer? Or the other profession name? Kitten it we'll just give it a new name". Especially if this new hybrid profession proves to be more popular than traditional mesmerism.

    Elite specialisations as currently presented, however, are subdivisions rather than anything like this. A mirage, for instance, is at most the equivalent of a Me/A from GW1 - not enough of a shift to represent a move into another discipline.

    Wait, are you considering elite specializations sub divisions because the spellcasting professions/schools are already divisions with the spectrum? In which case subdivision is what could kill them. I thought you meant mesmer isn't likely to die from mirage dividing again.

    Mo/P is a subdivision of monk made interdisciplinary with the introduction of Ritualism. The later of which had Preservation elements, but also Misty stuff. The same could happen to Mesmer. Me/A (Mirage) is a subdivision of Mesmer and could become interdisciplinary with the introduction of Dervish hoo-ha. The latter of which has Denial elements but also Misty stuff. As light + spirit = constructs, twisting space + transformation= transmutation? Reality warping that resembles the invocation/conjuration of Revenant/Elementalist more than the physics manipulation of Mesmer. Polymorphing grains of sand into Moa's would probably be more popular than illusions that die with the target.

    Disregarding the probability of that specific profession, I don't think people finding their own combinations is going anywhere unless they are including elite specializations in the mix.
    Modern surgery couldn't have just hybridized with natural philosophy, it required anatomy/physiology to completely supplant barber-surgeons.

  • Gryphon.2875Gryphon.2875 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    What's more likely to erode the distinctions is that the Bloodstones are no longer forcing distinct splits between the schools, allowing the lines between them to fade and blur.

    Given most could wield 2 professions at once in GW1, the Bloodstones didn't seem to limit it much then, either.

  • @Gryphon.2875 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    What's more likely to erode the distinctions is that the Bloodstones are no longer forcing distinct splits between the schools, allowing the lines between them to fade and blur.

    Given most could wield 2 professions at once in GW1, the Bloodstones didn't seem to limit it much then, either.

    Indeed, the "divided magic" lore of the Bloodstones never seemed to hold much water, and not just because of the old dual professions. Time and again it seems like some bit of filler lore that Anet threw out there without thinking much about it or how it should have effected their world.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Gryphon.2875 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    What's more likely to erode the distinctions is that the Bloodstones are no longer forcing distinct splits between the schools, allowing the lines between them to fade and blur.

    Given most could wield 2 professions at once in GW1, the Bloodstones didn't seem to limit it much then, either.

    Indeed, the "divided magic" lore of the Bloodstones never seemed to hold much water, and not just because of the old dual professions. Time and again it seems like some bit of filler lore that Anet threw out there without thinking much about it or how it should have effected their world.

    They did consider it. IIRC the dual professions were just someone trained in both. The divided magic lore is why we had to wait till Gw2 for everyone to get healing skills. And people back then dreaded not having monks. It's why Guardians, Ritualist, and Dervish can do one school + Mists magic seemingly effortlessly but we don't have many two school effects.

    And its why there are weak mixtures now as spellcasters spent centuries advancing themselves under prior limitations.
    Such as Mirage adapting shadow magic techniques but not combining actual shadow usage from thief/necromancer with illusion magic. Scourge seemingly integrating fire magic with Dhuumfire but nowhere near the quality of elementalists. Etc

    Edit: when we get phantasmal weapon conjuration that can summon elemental effects like a fiery greatsword you can call it filler.