Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Let's Talk About PvP Balance


Cal Cohen.2358

Recommended Posts

There are outliners in current meta (Condithief, Holo, FB for the most part) what is surprising because the whole meta is insanely low skill ceiling casualfriendly and not competitive at all. I try to avoid class specific stuff and only use them as examples not as the only things need nerfs/ reworks. The overall problem of the game is, that it is insanely power creeped in all aspects not only the dmg part. Only reducing offensive stats on amulets would only lead to another boring bunker meta and should not be done like that. Stats overall need to be reduced (also the defensive ones) and maybe even link some of amulet stats back to traitlines again (like we had pre hot).

  1. Access to boons and boonduration need to be decreased remarkable, in particular Quickness, Might, Stability and Protection.
  2. Passive dmg mulitplier should get removed in traits and be reworked into something more active, something a player can work with for some more skill ceiling but also for less power creep from stacking several passive dmg traits with dmg boni from runes and sigils. I think runes and sigils should be the only ones giving access to passive dmg boni. Traits should give dmg linked to player action not just passive dmg increase no matter what the player is doing, with no need to think about it. The oneshot problematic would be solved with that too. Builds can still burst for fast and high dmg but they cannot oneshot with barely any tell in under a sec anymore. Or at least not without the player doing something active in addition for the higher dmg instead being carried by passive dmg traits.
  3. Passive traits need to be removed (you started with that, like removed passive Elixier S from Engi, but then you stopped and even added new ones). Stuff like Warriors passive Endure Pain or Passive Stabi/ Stunbreak or Thief's passive evade need to go and become something more active. I also mean offensive passive traits like Necros Lesser Spinal Shivers. I also count into this point that you give Mesmers more condiapplications by shatters back and nerf Condiclone ambushes and normal autoattacks. The passive part is not IH, the passive parts are the condi-ambushes/ condi clone normal autoattacks. That leads directly to the next point:
  4. Defensive traitlines on most classes (mostly the core traitlines) should get more active (removing the previous named passive traits will do a lot for that already).
  5. Defensive traitlines need more opportunity costs in dmg, so we don't have these godlike bruiser builds anymore can burst like crazy during being tanky as hell. Add some amulet stats back to traitlines could be one way but there are probably other/ better ways to reach that goal.
  6. I would even rework traits giving boni on weapon and utility cds. These stuff always lower the punishment for cd wastes and leads into a brainless spamfeast. One example from something overperforming in that regard is Holomode and the skills in Holomode. Both need higher cds so skills cannot be spammed but need to be mindfully used instead.
  7. Condis are wrong designed since game release. First wrong thing is , that you literally can burst with condis what is a contradiction. Then it seems you forgot, that the condiplaystyle itself (the dot style) has a defensive component already. After you hit the condis you can play defensive and let the dots work for you. Making condibuilds able to use more defensive stats and the same or higher amount of defensive traits than Powerbuilds is the wrong direction. Even worse when you combine the double defensive nature of condibuilds in GW2 with the ability to burst + high sustain dmg most condi builds have. Condis are too spammable aside from the ridiculous bursts they have.
  8. The problematic traitlines are often not the elite ones, means i am overall not a fan of this trade off thing. Better look at the defensive core traitlines, they often are the roots of the problems from specific op builds. A lot of classes have core builds can compete with elite specs already and the trade off for taking an elite line that often mostly provide a new playstyle more than any passives or pure dmg increase and often add clearly more skill ceiling is, that you can't take a 3. core traitline and miss all stuff you would get from that 3. core traitline. Elites often are the wrong place to start with nerfs in my view. And when i then look at the way how the few trade offs we already have were made, then i am even more worried... we don't need more dead elites like Chrono.
  9. Move dmg numbers over the head of the target i am attacking (over the name template), i wanna see animations from targets i am attcking, often they are hidden behind my dmg numbers, annoying as hell.
  10. Add better boon and condi UI (in particular for condi and boonremove, so we can see what condis/boons are the least were applied and would get removed first). Give high impact boons like Aegis and Stabi another colour so we can see them faster among the 6 other boons most targets have at same time.

Mentioned only because i read it so often here: What i don't see as problematic is Mirage Cloak, the spec is designed with a strength vs cc and as long as it is counterable and doesn't completely neutralize the cc effect and a good Mesmer still gets rewarded for just dodging the cc in the first place i don't rly see a problem here. For Mirage Cloak all is given but EM needs to go! You only can keep it in the game in a nerfed to death state what doesn't make sense. The stunbreak on dodge is gamebreaking and needs to be removed, give 2 condiremoves or whatever instead and remove the exhaustion debuff.

Also i get why the opinions from new and unexperienced players and from casual players without any incentives to get good are important, but don't listen to them too much. Every game with high skill ceiling is hard to get into. That never stopped ppl from joining it (if you look to other games with 100% PvP focus and high skill ceiling, they are successful). Instead add some more tutorials back in the game and maybe support websides or videos with guides more and make them easier accessible for ppl. Obviously using google or youtube search is too hard or too exhausting for most ppl, means make a sticked thread with links to guides, sides like GodofPvP or Youtube channel with PvP Guides with high quality instead braindead and/ or newbiefriendly but boring bunker metas to help ppl to get into the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The main issues I have with PvP balance and how classes fight out is that active defense and offense are both far too powerful and removes any reactivity from fights. Many of the builds I've seen have degenerated to strategies of either alpha-striking and stunlocking someone to death within a few seconds, or being able to constantly evade, block, invuln, etc to the point where hitting them is near impossible (some builds have bits of both and phase between the two). Support firebrands get by without these exact strategies but their healing and boon capability is so strong that they don't care about someone trying to bash their face in until they have to fight multiple opponents.

Combined with the extreme offensive power some classes have, the only way that evasion can be reliably used is preemptively, chaining it together in some static rotation/combo that doesn't allow any counterplay because if someone does manage to land one hit through it all, it snowballs the other way into a very fast kill.

Overall what I would like to see... basically amounts to nerfs across the board with the intent of slowing combat down. More limitation on chain evades/invulns, lower offensive power across the board (so that being hit doesn't immediately end you), and healing set to some level that can't be infinitely sustained in a 1v1 with a damage-heavy class (Being able to drag the fight out with a support setup is expected, but doing that to infinity promotes bunkering too much imo).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In terms of meta outliers that are too strong(there are too many on the other end of the spectrum to list) the obvious culprits are:

Holo: Like many have said, the sustain and damage combination is way too high. Many people have offered good suggestions to nerf one or the other, namely big reductions to heat therapy or stab/quickness.

Condi Thief: Just really annoying to play against. Not nearly as bad as old condi thief, but enough to warrant looking at it.Staff Thief: This playstyle is just really cheese. Again, not the most egregious thing that has been in the game, but no serious PvP game should allow something as cheese are near permanent evade.

Tactics Warrior: Healing on might gain was uncalled for and really messed with warrior balance. ATM it has incredible sustain and damage just from might.

When it comes to the big picture power levels, I'd take a look at things like support Tempest, DH - basically classes that have remained without significant changes since the release of PoF. These specs imo represent a fairly decent state of balance. Fun to play(and play against), excels in some areas, but with clear weaknesses. Since the release of PoF these classes have been largely irrelevant due to power creeped specs that can do everything(sustain, damage, utility in the form of boons or mobility)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are a few fundamental problems I personally have with pvp, and a few that i've heard others complain about.

  • Build variety- In most of the competitive scene, builds that are meta are practically all that is viable. And in pvp, there's generally only one meta build for pvp per class. (maybe per elite spec, but this isn't true for all classes. Renegade for example, or the recently nerfed scourge). Before nerfing things, I'd like to see buffs. SIGNIFICANT buffs to unused traits, weapon sets, and utility skills. On core thief, s/d has been viable for forever and running Deadly arts + Trickery has and always been the superior trait lines. This makes reworked Shadow arts and Critical strikes unused because of the X factor that they lack or the tradeoffs that aren't worth it. Please put more variety in builds per class to really shake up the meta and bring new counters in matchups. (shorbow/shortbow thief? why not!) I feel like this would not only make pvp more fun due to the variety in playstyle, but also help identify which classes/abilities really do need to be tuned down or monitered. Before all the nerfs, I used to run Dagger Dagger daredevil. It was extremely fun (regardless of not being meta), and it wasn't the worst. No oneshot potential, and decent outplay potential. It wasn't bad, but not necessarily good either.
  • Fundamentality of Roles- This ties in with build variety, but is very concerning to me. Nerfs and buffs that are applied to one class affect how it performs on it's role. Previously, patches have come out to push Daredevil into a duelist, for example the swipe change (which is an entirely different conversation btw). I love to play Daredevil, but if you want me to play like a duelist, I might as well play Soulbeast or Holo as it's much more efficient and adds more to the table.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Too many classes have access to perma boons (25 might and prot are the culprits here - see soulbeast and Holo) boons should create windows of opportunity for opponent players to go on the offensive or defensive when they are able to create a small boon advantage, not allow them to be unkillable AND dealing huge damage with no vulnerable windows.

Corrupts create too much cover condos, requiring huge amounts of condo clear, making builds that focus on a single condi useless or builds that lack consistent condi clear deadweight. Each class (or elite spec) should be tied to 2-3 condos only and should focus primarily on applying those condos. Corrupts should not work on a direct boon -> condo conversation but rather convert any number of boons into a specific condi. Eg a scourge boon corrupt will always strip x boons and then apply always y torment and y cripple (as those are it's class condos). Then mass condi clear can be reduced.Bonus idea - condos are split into two groups damage and debuffs. Condi cleanses are split into two groups, mass and singular. Mass cleanses remove all debuffs but never damaging condos, allowing windows of opportunity. Singular cleanses remove the current highest dps condi on you. This prevents damage condos to be covered by debuffs and allows more decesion making during fights.

Dodge spam - the +30/40% endurance foods are much to strong, now that classes can use Dodge to remain invulnerable AND apply pressure (thrift warrior Holo mirage) remove them. Also look at sigil of energy. Dodges should be a fight changer that is well timed, not something that is spammed constantly.

Heal spam - too many traits provide massive health regeneration over time for no cost -especially when paired with perma protection and infinite Dodges creates way too much sustain for little investment.

Permastealth - remove the 'marked debuff' remove cd on missed theif stealth attacks. After 3/4 seconds in stealth characters now start to fade back into visibility while they continue to remain in stealth. Basically after a short while in stealth they should start to look to enemy players like the translucent version of themselves that you see on your own screen when stealthed. This give you short stealth windows while in combat and 'semi stealth' over your long permastealths that a vigilant enemy could still track you in.

Buff backstab damage but make it apply a short stun/imobilize, and then the damage after a delay. The skill itself is still then a surprise from stealth with big damage, but has counterplay because if the enemy can stun break OR condicleanse they are spared the backstab damage.

Base HP - since the game came out it has become much more spammy with classes having access to more and more skills on lower CDs with high damage. This leaves low hp classes like theif and ele more vulnerable than ever as a single mistake can outright kill them. HP is your blanket against burst but with such low values these classes are forced to invest into it to get any semblance of survivability. When you consider it also takes 3 other attributes to do any considerable power damage you can see why thief is always shoehorned into marauder as their only stay option. This contributes to the prevalence of the current condo theif build as it needs only 2 offensive attributes opening more opportunities to shore up it's low survivability and creating a low skillcap build

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

Very near future release note:

  • Deadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison has been decreased from 2 to 1 in PvP only.We're not sure it's enough but hopefully a good start.

As a main Thief (I play power builds and not condi S/D daredevil): this change is absolutely wrong and harmful.When you want to balance a build you should focus on the problem:

  1. Daredevil condi S/D build was a problem until July 10 2018 balance patch (when you nerfed Potent Poison, Uncatchable, Bewildering Ambush and Lotus Training all together) and at that time Deadly Ambition had not yet been added to the game.
  2. Deadly ambition works fine by itself (in fact nobody complains about core condi D/P or Daredevil D/D, which both use Deadly ambition), the problem is the interaction between Deadly ambition (+Potent Poison) and Panic Strike (+Potent Poison). Nerf hard Deadly ambition will only kill builds diveristy, without solve the true problem.
  3. The true problem of condi thieves currently is the no sense amount of poison they can stack and this is true for all the condi build that can spam immobilize (thanks to Panic Strike): Condi DE (with Spotter's Shot + Panic Strike + Deadly Ambition + Leeching Venoms), Condi S/D Daredevil (Infiltrator's Strike + Panic Strike + Deadly Ambition), Condi Shadow Arts P/D (Body Shot + Panic Strike + Deadly Ambition + Leeching Venoms). If you do some accounts, you'll see that, in the short term, Deadly Ambition has a minor result that Panic Strike in term of damage.

@Jekkt.6045 said:s/d + sb condi daredevil:many people dislike this build quite a lot but i actually think its power level is fine. what i don't like about this build is that it operates with way less skills than power s/d and d/p that have to use multiple skills to deal damage while condi mainly uses infiltrator's strike.

@"Falan.1839" said:Daredevil: The Condition variant is a bit easier to kill, but still has a very high dodge uptime. The problem here is that it does very high pressure on essentialle passive/instant effects like sword 2 and dodge. It basically doesnt ever have to use AA, or other sword skills, just the Sword 2 port, dodge and and occasional steal provide for tons of condition pressure that gets constantly reapplied.

This is what I was talking about: why spam Infiltrator's Strike? Of course not cause Deadly Ambition (that works with every attack) but cause Panic Strike.

  1. The simplest and most effective solution will be restore the old Panic Strike trait removing the two poison stacks that PS applies. In this way you will tone down the initial burst combo damage (-2 poison stacks) and you'll prevent the Infiltrator's Strike spam achieving both the nerf of Condi Daredevil S/D and the keeping of S/D power mechanics.

Please, try to test what I wrote!! Good job and have a nice day!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm going to try to make this as concise as I can without making it too much of a wall of text, which I'm not fond of reading myself.  

Overall general mechanics outliers:  

  • Stealth: Very little feedback, very little counterplay, wont even display in combat log until they reappear. Blocking with aegis/blind/dodge doesnt reveal them until something finally lands damage or stealth runs out. Someone can teleport away, run around you in circles, go to high ground heal back up and drop back down and there isnt much you can do about it or even try to guess what they are really doing (Im looking at you holos specifically for this). Stealth itself in many videogames is the strength of the machanic itself, incertitude in combat in a game where everything can flip on its head in 1-2 secs is already QUITE STRONG of a mechanic itself. In Gw2 there is no punishment for it, no slow (in fact some get faster), no tradebacks, no a lot of room for counterplay unless you are a medium and can read into the opponent's mind. Whether you spend a long CD CC ability on an "educated guess", there is no rewards from it since virtually nothing but the debuff reveal can remove stealth (very limited or not existent for some classes, and application is situational like sick-em which requires a target........) , and even then you gave a way to remove the way of removing stealth to thieves. Some classes can drop you from 1500 range from stealth, with literally one shot, which can preceded by unblockable CC. No matter how good you are, if someone literally does 100% of your hp from stealth, 1500 range, there isnt much counterplay to that. Relevant picts: https://i.imgur.com/RT8nk87.jpg and https://i.imgur.com/7XieoAe.jpg (got more but dont want to clutter this). My advice, give it the modern-time-games treatment; invisibility =/= invincibility. Like WoW, OW, LoL, Destiny 2, etc... Damage and or CC, or a threshold of damage (based on %hp) reveals them. If they get too close, temporarily show them, if they are nearby you give a small visual cue (similar to how blind visual effects work?) so that we know that they are still around and they didnt just use that 8 secs long stealth to go to another point while you are standing around wondering where they are and what they are doing.  

  • Teleports need some rules: Right now Revs and thieves make necros/eles lives miserable with teleports that ignore LoS, verticality (except for funky spots in some maps, aka inconsistency). Eles have a hard time surviving anything that can teleport every few seconds to them while said attackers have neither LoS, or are not in the same "level floor" as them. A rev can teleport every 5 seconds (a thief has no CD), burst and repeat until you are dead or, if you are a condi class, you can try to get the attackers full of aids in between those shorts moments outside of their evade-frames/invuln, which might give you some breathing room. Sword #2 thieves basically are the bane of any squishy, no matter where you hide, where you climb, your positioning or awareness, they can virtually pop in and out with basically no CDs and engage at will. LoS needs to be respected, teleports that completely invalidate positioning shouldnt be so easy to come by and so spammable.  

  • Condition speccs need some look at: I have always played power classes, but recently I picked up a core condi guard and suddenly I was consistently in top 20-50 playing soloQ, while putting less than half the work or thought (https://i.imgur.com/Ph2BnLw.jpg, https://i.imgur.com/z73S7rt.jpg, got more but Im sure you got access to my account stats). I have no issues identifying the real mesmer (playing since beta) yet even when I know the real one, I'm often fighting the clones so that they arent stacking so many condis on me; it is oppressive, not fun and basically becomes a game of whether can you survive it or outrun it, and their access to stealth/teleports/CC makes it difficult to run away from them as well. Having overwhelming amounts of confusion and torment means that the only answer you have is either use a condi cleanse that can remove 4+ condis at once (since there are also quite a few convering condis to boot) or simply take your hands off the keyboard since if you move, damaged, if you cast a spell, damaged, I dont think it is healthy for a game where the answer is to NOT play the game, it's not fun, it's just frustrating.  

  • Some builds kill too quickly, some dont die: Ever been on the receiving end of a power mantra mesmer bursting you from 100 to 0 from stealth? Or what about a DE dropping you from 1500 range from stealth? Or a ranger with Maul + Worldly Impact + sick'em coming from stealth from using smokescale#2 + blast? Burst guardian teleporting from 1200, behind a wall where you literally cant see them, with focus 5 + smite condi + other instant or near instant abilities, or a freshair ele, etc etc... There needs to be some chance to fight back, dropping to 0 or near 0 %hp right at the beginning of the fight, with little to no warning isnt something I think is healthy for competitive games. Likewise, holos, scrappers, spellbreakers or warrior with GS, any thief build with shortbow, perma evade daredevil, condi mirage, condi thief, etcetc will either facetank/evade-spam/tug you around the point/teleport/stealth/dash away if you get them low, then they can either get away and/or heal back up and re-contest, or go hide behind LoS on the back of the point if 1 or 2 allies come to help purge them away from the point. Generally speaking dying on these speccs means the player messed up, or the opponent can match their mobility and/or sustain. This isnt about the dueling power, Im ok with rock/paper/scissor, I just dont think laser should be in the game if it basically has an answer to nearly everyone while the others are extremely specialized on 1 or 2 things.  

  • Clear strengths and weaknesses are needed: Take necros, eles and guardians for example. When you fight a necro, you know that if you ignore it, they will kill you, your team, your family, and pets, you know they cant really run away so once they are in, they are in to kill or die, same for guardians but more like either you kill them first or nobody dies. When you see an ele (non weaver) attune out of one element, or overload it, you know that they are completely locked out of those defensive/offensive skills for a while, it clearly displays it on the hud, you expect mostly healing and chill on water, tankiness and cripple/bleed on earth, crits/vuln and stuns on air, damage/burn and might on fire. A damage staff ele will blow up from anyone getting close to it, but you know they cant heal their team, nor provide boons/condi cleanses, likewise, a healing ele cant really harm you even if you let it free cast fire spells. When you look at a build you should be able to describe its strengths and weaknesses in less than 2 relatively short sentences. You cant use this method to describe a holo who can basically do nearly everything, and do it better than some specialized classes, or a spellbreaker/condi mesmer/condi thief who basically can take nearly all other builds in the game by themselves alone or in small skirmishes, but there are only a very, very small select few builds that can fight them back. Also, unblockable needs some shaving, thief sword #3 with dagger together with sword #2 means that neither positioning, blocks/aegis will save you from the no-CD CC and teleports tied with evade. Doing damage while evading/defending is just frustrating and give nearly no room for retaliation; perma evade/vault daredevil, or condi thief, condi mesmers with constant evades and stealth and blocks. Impactful abilities such as holo's Prime Light Bean shouldnt be 60 secs long, while being unblockable and can be cast at any time during the 6 secs of stealth with no punishment, and lets not forget about the easy and near constant access to quickness to make timing even harder to "predict", and if you get them to low hp? brghrlghrl and they are now back to near or full health again and have nearly all CDs back up.  

  • I want to fight the player, not he UI: Too many boons, too many condis, too many unique buffs (skill icons, some are quite important and animations can be lost in the sea of particles, and in some cases, there is little to no animation, like for example most teleports, or engi's rifle skills), too many inconsistencies. I want to know if I can CC them, but stability is buried between 3-5 other boons that are constantly shifting positions as they wear off or are reapplied, plus unique UI buffs that are too small to see in the heat of battle, specially if I dont have the person targeted. We have blue bars, instead of putting a .5 secs daze with 0 CD (thief #3 sword) on the same strength as a 2 secs situational stun (ele staff air #5), CC should be based on strength and have visual indicators under the health bars, and these blue bars would have lines that show "how much" CC they can take via black vertical lines (how most game display hp so that it is easy to tell at a glance) and how long until it goes away (small white line like a fuse under the blue line?), of course, different kind of CCs would affect this blue bar differently. We already have great visual clues for things like blind, stuns, daze, which you can tell you are afflicted with these without having to look at your UI. Burning should show somehow, and unlike blind, 1 burn stack with no condi damage shouldnt have the same visuals as 10 burn stacks with condi damage. It can get quite noisy with too many effects if you are; blinded, dazed, burning, tormented, confused, weakened, bleeding and vulnerable (condi mesmers can apply all of these at the same time in less than 2 secs), so we need some shaving on either amount or strength of certain boons and condis. Also, show hp values, a 11k hp ele with 1.8k toughness has the same sized healthbar as a 26khp necro, yet we all know it takes more damaging skills to get the later health bars down to 50% hp.    

There are quite a few more things but I would honestly be surprised if there is anyone who has made it past the first 3 paragraphs.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Itz Jay.8941 said :Nerf condi mirage hard, this spec has so much evasion it should be pushed more into playing power or hybridFalse, It has less evade uptime than many other metaclass when looking at vigor uptime, endurance regeneration and evade skills.

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

Mesmer


(This is from a thread I made a year ago)If you ignore there was a year of nerf, your post is useless.


Duelist’s Discipline

  • Problem: Combined with Sharper Images, this trait means that Phantasmal Duelist alone can apply anywhere from 8-16 stacks of long-duration bleeding. Also, coupled with Mirage’s exceptionally high access to CC’s, this means that pistol skills can recharge nearly instantly.

  • Solution: Currently, this trait bleeds on EVERY hit from pistol attacks from you and your illusions. Instead, change this to 33% chance to bleed on CRITICAL hits like most other bleeding-related traits. Also, remove the 25% cooldown reduction on interrupt and make it a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills.You know that it's normal for a spell with 20+ sec CD, 0.5 sec cast, visible animation to hit for 6 to 8k over 3+sec ? Specialy when traiting for this ?It's better to have an instant direct 5k on many skill with bugged or no animation like some class can do ?Sharper Images

  • Problem: Again, this trait is 100% chance on critical hits to apply a 5-8 second bleed (Carrion vs. Deadshot amulet). This results in insane amounts of bleeding stacks with little effort on the mesmer’s part.

  • Solution: Similar to Sharpened Edges, Sharpshooter, Barbed Precision, and Bloodlust (basically every single bleed-on-attack related trait), make it 33% on critical hits and reduce the bleeding duration to 3 seconds because the effect can trigger from 3 different sources.All the class you link didn't have viable condi build, maybe there is something linked, dunno.Infinite Horizon

  • Problem: These trait multiplies the effectiveness of a Mirage’s ambush skills by FOUR times. Instead of using lesser versions of ambush skills, every illusion uses the exact same attack the player uses. This results in: 4 dazes from Mirage Thrust, 25 stacks of torment and bleeding from Imaginary Axes, 10-15 stacks of confusion, torment and bleeding from Ether Barrage, and 4 stacks of burning and 10-16 stacks of torment and bleeding from Chaos Vortex. Keep in mind, these ambush attacks can be SPAMMED and all of these conditions I listed are applied PER USE.Lol at the link from 1 years.Ok it's not possible now to do this.Aaand : Problem : how mirage put pressure without IH ?Keep in mind these ambush can't be spammed because you haven't neither perma vigor, neither endurance regen, neither other way to sustain than evade.

  • Solution: The ambush attacks from illusions still trigger but ONLY the animation and minor power damage. They should NOT apply any conditions or other effects. This trait should be used to confuse enemies not obliterate them with multiple, high condition stacks.People, like write in this thread are actually enough confuse with illusions, I'm sure they prefer took the damage while just the mesmer attack buffed with the number of illusion than the opposite.Mirage Cloak

  • Problem: Dodging while disabled should not exist.CC fiesta on every class shouldn't exist while no building into it.Passive autostab or other CC immune should neither exist.Fix theses first plz.

  • Solution: Remove the ability to dodge while disabled.Did you find viable build on core mesmer without stealth ? Once you show me a prove that this kind of build can even be considered, you can apply your solution.Illusionary Counter

  • Problem: This skill is a 4.75 second cooldown, 2 second duration block that summons 2 clones and applies 7 stacks of torment (5 on trigger, 1 per clone).This skill as a 8 sec cooldown and apply 5 stack of torment. (the 600 damage from clone can be deleted.).Strangely you miss to talk about confusing image who does less damage than other class similar weapon for same gear ?

  • Solution: Increase the cooldown to 10 seconds (8 seconds while traited) and reduce the torment on trigger to 3.Solution 1 : don't rollface.Solution 2 : cleanse.Solution 3 : evade during the counter effect.Solution 4 : be out of range.Solution 5 : use a unblocable skill.Solution 7 : use a evade while attacking/blocking skill like many spec can do.Solution 6 : LoS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can only speak from my small scale roaming experience. Obviously most of us won't post videos to back up our argument but hope at least you're willing to listen.
For my personally it blows my mind how some builds are allowed to exist, and how some logic isn't used to realize this is OP. Again this is just my experience from roaming since release and the current meta.

An example is the insane stealth dead eyes have. If you're going to engage in combat, then you have agreed to fight, but no instead of a pvp fight all you get is a class that can harass you and leave at will without consequence. (yes ive killed many dead eyes, some who actually make a mistake after 5 minutes of bs stealthing, but thats not the majority, most dead eyes that aren't terrible, can and will completely leave if they don't kill you)

Are we not here to pvp? If you want to run then maybe pvp/wvw isn't your thing after all? You just want kills but arn't willing to accept that maybe you don't understand the mechanics and lack the skill to actually have some type of real pvp go on.

Another example is boon beast rangers. Not complaining about rangers specifically but, how is a build allowed to have so much sustain yet decent damage still? Not only that I've seen builds that can just stealth>swoop>longbow nonstop. You're just not gonna catch that, at the very least pvp shouldn't be able some class being able to run for ages while you spam w.e small gap closer you have to catch up to them.

Another example is mesmers, why is it that a mesmer can yet again engage a fight, and then realize their opponent is superior to them so they can blink out of combat so fast and thats not including the stealth they have already, the invuln, etc.

My point is, for a game mode based on pvp, it should be encouraged that if you engage in a fight, then there must be some type of consequence, not just be rewarded with escapes because youre running a build that can leave anytime and "kite" for days.

Not sure what it will take, maybe nerf some gap closers, some stealth, but stop rewarding builds that give the players the cheese to escape fights, if a player engages in combat or gets caught in combat, its time to stay and fight not run and kill the game mode by not providing anything but your escape.

I main weaver sword/f and so many times can some cheese builds just run away, yet I can switch over to my zerk ranger and be lazy and just spam my longbow and then run away with GS and stealth and get easy results.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mirages are disgusting since they can dodge whenever they want.

Every class gets into a trouble when they got CCed, slapped on the ground vulnerably which Mirage doesn't. They just dodge even if they sleeping on the ground. "Oh, I can dodge even if you daze/launch/stun/push/pull/imobil/fear/taunt me! You can't hurt me with your keystone attack!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So here's just my quick thoughts on Thief and its Stealth and Shadowstepping in its current form to see if that will improve the game in the future.

I think it's better for both PvP and WvW for those two class mechanics of Thieves (Stealthing and Teleporting/Shadowstepping) to be more exclusive from one another. I don't think it's fun for anyone to fight against a class that can stealth and then teleport away while stealthed to heal up or even get out of combat and not have enough counters for it.

I don't think it's healthy balance when a Deadeye can jump back with Death's Retreat several times in a row, stealth for over 10 seconds straight, and then be able to one-shot your class if they're using a one-shot power Amulet, without having enough counters for it since there isn't enough Revealed on weapon/utility skills or traits.

If you don't have revealed, the counter to someone Stealthing is just waiting for it to run out on them. The counter for shadowstepping/teleporting is anticipating it (which is difficult on its own for Thief's Steal and Sword 2 since they don't have obvious tells) or simply try to move and catch up and cripple/chill/immobilize them, or attack from afar if you have a good enough ranged weapon on your class.

The problem is when they're both combined: you can wait for someone to come out of stealth but they never do because they're already at least 1200 range away after stealthing, or you can try to catch up after they teleport away in view but then they stealth and you have no idea if they're coming back towards you or running away further, etc. etc.

To make it simpler, I don't think that "Shadowstep" and "Shadow Return" should be Deception skills and that Sword 2 shouldn't be as easy to use back and forth and back and forth. I also think Deadeye needs a different Elite Skill - being able to remove Revealed from a class that can stealth on a dodge just isn't balanced.

Also every profession should have at Least 1 skill that applies Revealed, not only to help counter Thieves and some of their perma-stealth builds, but also the occasional Mesmer, Ranger, or Engineer if they're using stealth. For example, no Elementalists or Mesmers can apply Revealed on any of their skills, so they should at least have 1 available somewhere as a buff.

Perhaps in return Thief can have a slightly higher HP pool to start out with? Maybe that's giving too much, but yes Thieves are a bit too squishy and one-shot-like when they finally get caught, both in PvP and WvW.

Hopefully that all made sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everyone complains about condi thief... I have no issues fighting them on any of my classes.. except necro.

Mirages on the other hand, are just plain stupid. CC, immunities, dodges, and the visual spam + target clearing.. You cant have your cake, your neighbors cake, and your kids cake, and eat it too.

Warriors numbers are bloated, everything is just too good. Rampage especially, 50% dmg reduction?? That's a mad-mans number. It should take increased dmg... not decreased.

Scourge is too skilless, and you can just spam all your crap in a row. Low effort.

Holo is even less skilless. just spam your buttons 2 3 5 4 1 2 dodge dodge repeat and if you get into trouble, just use your plethora of skills to get out of jail free.

Weaver utilities pass out passive condis... free dmg should not be passive, ever, imo. Survivability should not be passive. You should have to THINK about your actions and how to turn the tide of a fight.

Traps are lame, on every class. Traps shouldn't apply enough condi to fully kill someone from 100 to downed. They should be tertiary damage, or no dmg at all (in pvp at least)

Rev is the only class where I think the state is okay, not too much dmg (if you die from a rev and come here to complain, thats a YOU problem) and not too much survivability.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, without much explanation as to "Why" I'm going to toss my list of direct skill splits. It should be noted that I am basing this list on aiming at bringing overperforming specs down to the level of Spellbreaker, and bringing underperforming specs up to the level of Spellbreaker. This is because I feel Spellbreaker is the best model we have that displays a strong overall balance in performance value as well as "It feels good to play as and play against." This list is in the order of class performance tiers, as I had listed in my previous post. The top is the best performing class and the bottom is the worst performing class:

OUTLIERS AT THE TOP WHICH ARE COMMONLY SEEN AS OVERPOWERED BY THE MAJORITY OF THE PLAYER BASE:

Holosmith

  1. It needs a real damage shave. Forge skills need damage splits.
  2. Too much sustain. Heat Therapy heal factor should be halved in competitive modes.
  3. Photon Forge needs to be on at least a 9 second cool down, just like everything else in the game.

Condi Thieves of all types

  1. Deadly Arts needs that good nerfing. Ben already had mentioned something that should significantly lower the consistent pressure.

Staff/Staff Daredevil

  1. Really, just the animation exploits need to be fixed.
  2. If that is not possible, Staff Master & Brawler's Tenacity need less endurance regen, and evade frames need to be slightly shortened on Staff skills.

CLASSES THAT REPRESENT ACCEPTABLE BALANCE BY MOST OF THE PLAYER BASE:

Spellbreaker <- This is the type of play dynamic that offers great counter play while playing as or against it, that I'd like to see in other classes all around the board. It also represents a sound balance in overall level of power

  1. Leave it the way that it is. The only exception that could see some change would be....
  2. Rampage could use a bit less duration on its CC skills.

Condi Mirage

  1. Clone Ambush damage needs to be turned down a bit.
  2. Put that missing Clone Ambush damage back into Shatter play, which would encourage more active offense and less 100% defensive attrition play.

Firebrand

  1. Leave it the way that it is.
  2. The way to address any complaint about Firebrand would be to enhance other supports, not to nerf Firebrand.

Herald

  1. Gaze Of Darkness has way too large of a radius. Herald already has the strongest chase potential in the game through Unrelenting Assault and Phase Traversal. It does not need a 600 radius reveal that works without a target. Either significantly nerf the radius on Gaze of Darkness or make it a single target reveal that requires a target to use, and you could increase it's radius to 800 to compensate.

Core Ranger & Soulbeast

  1. People HATE Ranger/Soulbeast Longbows because of the high damage at 1500 range. Real simple split, let's not make this complex, just normalize the damage on Longbow autos at all ranges. Make 1500 range deal the same damage as mid range and make close range deal as much damage as mid range. This way the Ranger/Soulbeast's 1500 burst lies only within Rapid Fire/Barrage which is easy tells & easy avoids. After that, it can no longer pop players for 4k-6k autos at 1500 range. Then to compensate it can brawl better at close range with the LB while stuck in the 9s LB swap.
  2. Pets: People complain about pets for the same reason they complain about Deadeyes, it's annoying. But there is a big difference between something being annoying and something actually being overpowered. The truth is that Ranger/Soulbeast is in no viable state to be competitive in top tier play or Monthly ATs. The truth is that Ranger/Soulbeast, although pretty viable in the hands of the right player, just plainly lacks the utilities that the abovementioned classes possess. In all seriousness, pets are the only way for a Ranger/Soulbeast to achieve the type of utility that the abovementioned classes possess or at least maintain the utility that they have now. If you start nerfing pets, Ranger/Soulbeast is going to have a lot of problems mechanically that would be difficult to compensate for because their kit is their pet. They don't have a big list of F skills to be tinkered with and patched. The Soulbeast gets 3 F skills while merged and only 1 or 2 of them are ever useful. Then he gets 1 F skill while out of merge. A Core Ranger gets 1 F skill and that's it. If you start nerfing pets, Core Ranger disappears completely. Soulbeast would also struggle. Please ignore "nerf pets" suggestions. On the other hand, I can say that Smokescale is too strong on Soulbeast due to Smoke Assault. I know a lot of other Ranger mains probably don't want to hear me say that but it is true. If anything, The merged skill Smoke Assault should receive a slight damage shave. Then other pet merge skills as well as the pets themselves, should receive buffs. Almost all of the core pets and even most of the new expansion pets, are completely useless because they offer little to no utility at all. But it should be the right kinds of buffs and the right kinds of utility added for the build archetypes that would consider using them. Things that matter.
  3. Condi Rangers & Soulbeasts: These builds are incredibly not viable at all in spvp. When compared to other condi specs such as Condi Mirage or Condi Daredevil, the Ranger/Soulbeast attempting to run condi just completely lacks the survival mechanics needed to live long enough to actually land opportunities to apply the short handed damage that it has. The only reason these builds were ever viable in raids/fractals is because monsters stand there and don't move out of an enormous damage rotation that is applied over a long duration of time at point blank range, while a team of 9 other people are tossing boons. In competitive modes, the Condi Ranger/Soulbeast has no disengage, ill mobility compared to its power variants, bad sustain compared to its power variants due to how traits have to be set if you want damage at all, and bad damage potential in general compared to power variants. I mean when you compare the damage that a Viper Shortbow Ranger/Soulbeast can land with a short opportunity vs. what a Power Longbow Ranger/Soulbeast can land with a short opportunity, it isn't even in the ballpark of the same level of threat that the Power Ranger possesses. The Condi Ranger/Soulbeast doesn't need damage buffing or sustain buffing, what it needs is utility. A few suggestions for skill split: 1) Shortbow 3 Quickshot should apply 2s of Superspeed to help the Condi Ranger/Soulbeast kite better. As of now it's kind of a sitting duck to everything else in the game that now has great mobility. 2) Shortbow 5 Concussion Shot should be a 2 ammo skill. 3) Ranger Dagger offhand 4 Stalker's Strike, just remove that awkward roll animation for the evasion. It's clunky and has never really felt right. Replace it with a normal strike animation that applies the poisons as normal, but grants a short 1s evasion while striking. These changes would in every way create a more similar applicable defensive counter play balance with Short Bow & Variable/Dagger as compared to Longbow & Great Sword play. With those types of changes, a Condi Ranger/Soulbeast might actually be a viable side node duelist or at the least, a decent team fight assist.

Weaver

  1. I don't know enough about this class to make any solid suggestions. I can say however, that if you guys are planning on dealing out some nerfs to curb popularly complained about specs, if Weaver is ignored it'll be the next new OP class.

Core Warrior

  1. This +50% vs. barrier thing https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warrior%27s_Cunning Yeah that part just needs to be removed. It's too much. It can keep +25% vs. above 90% health, which is fine.

Power Mirage

  1. It's fine, leave it alone. Aside from an extremely small representation of players who make this build look godly, it really isn't.

Core Guardian

  1. It's in a good spot for a core build. I don't feel it needs anything done to it at all.

Deadeye

  1. The class is balanced. It really is, aside from what other people may complain about. The problem with Deadeye is not balance in overall effectiveness towards how it contributes to a match vs. other builds, but rather how it counters some things way too hard and gets countered by other things way too hard. Where to even begin on this? I honestly don't know as I am no DE main. I'll leave this kind of speculation to the DE players.

Reaper

  1. It doesn't work well right now because there is so much condi in the meta, and Reaper cannot cleanse condis while in Shroud unless it takes the new Death Magic traits, which renders it with too little damage to do what it needs to do to have a job role at all. When I say condis that it can't cleanse, I don't mean simply damaging condis. I'm talking about things like perma weakness that rolls off of Condi Thieves, or Immobilizations. Reapers can't deal with this stuff. Perhaps Relentless Pursuit, which reduces the durations of movement impairing condis, should also apply that bonus to weakness as well.

Core Necromancer

  1. It's in a good place for a Core build. If anything, its shroud skills could use a very slight buff to damage.

Scourge

  1. Put the pulse back around the Scourge for spvp. That split needs to happen.
  2. Turn the targets back down to 5 only. Yes, it does matter. Clones & pets & other AIs do encompass beyond 5 target cleave limit rather often in team fights.

Core Mesmer/Chrono

  1. I don't know enough about this to really make any sound statements. I did have a person mention to me recently though that, the reason why Chrono is dead is because it has no Infinite Horizon Mirage Cloak effect to grant illusions, which means they die too fast with the power creep to do what they need to do.

Scrapper

  1. It's not that its underpowered as much as it is it has no discernable job role at this point. I'm no Scrapper main so I should leave suggestions to the Scrapper players.

Condi Revenant/Herald

  1. These builds are stronger than people realize. However I don't understand too well, so I'll leave it to Revenant/Herald players.

Druid

  1. Put the evade frame back on Ancestral Grace. That change hurt Druid play in detrimental ways that it cannot make up for.
  2. CA Kit 1 Cosmic Ray. This skill should also apply regeneration.
  3. CA Kit 2 Seed of Life. This skill should clear 3 condis AoE and apply 2s of Resistance.
  4. CA Kit 3 Lunar Impact. This skill should also steal 2 boons from every opponent it strikes.
  5. CA Kit 4 Rejuvenating Tides. This skill should be half the cast time and pulse protection to allies. The water field should also activate after the cast, so that the Druid can better utilize the field.
  6. CA Kit 5 Natural Convergence should be brought to a 1 second cast time and pulse Stability to 5 targets. In addition to the 5 target Immobilization, it should also land a 5 target Stun.
  7. ^ Changes like this would make a Druid on par with a Firebrand for Support role.

Core Ele/Tempest

  1. Core Ele is fine as a Core class. If anything it could use a little bit of damage in the right places.
  2. Tempest needs its Support role buffed.

Dragonhunter

  1. True Shot needs to be buffed again. With high DPS Power Soulbeasts & Deadeyes or even FA Eles around, DH has no purpose with such weak ranged. The only thing that ever made DH dangerous and work, is that the ranged attacks from the LB used to be dangerous. This made it confusing as to if you should be close range or mid range or long range to the DH. Now that the LB damage is so weak in comparison to other things, it isn't hard to kite around the DH and pop his traps from easy tells, and go in at him melee. The ranged needs to be buffed on DH, specifically True Shot.
  2. The pull on F1 could also use a split to reduce its cool down a bit.

Berserker

  1. Honestly I don't feel much can be done here without bloating the specialization. The damage output is already insane, and if you guys start adding defensive mechanisms into it, it could easily become over powered. I don't know. I'll let the Warrior mains comment on this. But Berserker as of now is just kind of bad and at the bottom of the list of "barely acceptable"

OUTLIERS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST THAT ARE IN NO WAY ACCEPTABLE FOR COMPETITIVE MODES

Core Engineer

  1. Oh buddy. How to even fix this without buffing Holosaiyan? I'll leave this up to the Engi mains. But I'll point out now that this should be handled very carefully. As of now Core Engineer is just terrible.

Renegade

  1. Boy oh boy is it bad. It completely lacks defensive mechanisms to do what it needs to do. I won't make specific suggestions here, but maybe some of its skills should have some evades or other defensive mechanisms implemented into them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@romano.8170 said:

1) Revert recent Scourge changes for PvP.

2) Nerf staff thief.3) Revert Rev staff 2 back to what it was prior to its change to the pitiful skill it is atm.Oh yeah, bring back ToL.Bolster MaT rewards. Winner should get a full set of ascended armor at the very least instead of 2 or 3 pieces (Or however many pieces it gets you.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm just going to poke my head in here regarding Mirage in general, not necessarily for the next patch, but for the future if you have any major overhaul planned..Currently what we have is a one-dimensional playstyle due to the direction of nerfs, homogenising the most optimal play into clone ambush spam and condi application, heavily relying on both crutches of Infinite Horizon and Deceptive Evasion, as particularly ambushes are not good enough without both of these. Right now I argue Axe is not adequately playable without both IH and DE together – meaning the player ambush is meaningless without clones to supplement. Staff also. This is a huge problem that needs to be addressed..In general I would like maintain and further encourage the thematic playstyle of being able to use mind tricks, blend with clones etc - deception with clones as foundation gameplay, through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe for example some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones..The primary benefits for choosing Mirage in my opinion should be:

  • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
  • ability to put dodge evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. On this point, contrary to usual I believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage, and the player where to burn the resource - limitations of this resource impacting not only defence but situational offence also.

I understand that the Grandmaster Major traits are intended to be three choices for dodge modification analagous to Daredevil's final tier traits - however I think it is shown over the last two years that while it might appear satisfying on paper, there are so many issues with the Grandmaster Major traits that this whole concept of final tier dodge modification needs to be rethought. Mirage isn't similar to Daredevil - the obvious fact being the existence of clones - and the design of the entire trait line should be looked at to better support this..So, for the foundation, to move mirage into being more unique compared with Core and Chrono, can encourage and focus on the following key features:.IH becoming grandmaster minor trait so you can balance the whole spec around it, together with rethinking of what the top/bottom/middle line, adept/master/grandmaster tiers should be. Could have it as Top line being Utility (Self Deception, new Mirror trait, Dune Cloak), Middle line being Defensive (regen, protection, redesigned Elusive Mind), Bottom Line being Offensive (Riddle of Sand, Axe trait, new offensive GM major trait).The whole final tier of traits should be changed and reintegrated around the thematic deceptive foundation of clones dodging with and performing the same attack (ambush) as the player..Move most of the damage onto player ambush and reduce it from clone ambush. Player ambush should be impactful and rewarded for landing, Clone ambush should be the "red herring" that opponents should learn to spot the player ambush from the clone ambushes thus avoiding most of the damage. Additionally player ambush damage should be further increased by x amount for each active clone, so existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush - increasing direct damage and maybe adding condi stacks etc..Modified shatters to compensate for "improved" auto attacks (ambushes). It seems clear you want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account.To further differentiate Mirage from Core Mesmer, it would be interesting to see F skills become debuff or indirectly boosting follow up player ambush damage and utility. Eg, F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage compared with Core. F3 could do shorter duration daze and then give eg 1s daze to your next ambush attack. F2 could be essentially Riddle of Sand built in.If self shatter is removed (I strongly believe it shouldn’t, and also should be returned to Chrono) F4 could become "Desert Distortion". Eg 1s distortion like Continuum Split, and all clones become mirrors (for the record I prefer normal Distortion, but given what has happened with Continuum Split it is likely F4 could get a similar style of change on Mirage, unless self-shatter gets restored to Chrono). But this depends if you decide to restore it to Chrono or not. This could go several ways, and either way it would need some deep thinking about how clones work and how they could/should work..Scenarios for both of the above:So if for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something, this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush..It would be interesting to see a dynamic ambush damage system for player ambush, where:

  • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.
  • So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc – rather than the clones applying it themselves.

For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:

  • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.
  • Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves largely not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack..

Final note - I think it goes without saying that Speed of Sand is a joke as a separate trait - should be integrated with baseline mechanic of Mirage Cloak..In any case much of the above hinges on two possibilities:

  • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place).
  • change how clones work (very broad).

I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough. Whatever happens there directly affects what should or should not happen with Mirage shatters and function.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Meta exists, but it is not healthyIn a healthy meta, builds 'circulate' so to speak. One tactic is dubbed the most effective until someone finds an accessible counter to that tactic, and so things change. In an ideal scenario, the healthiest meta would be one where the devs change nothing, but gameplay is changing constantly as meta builds are made, counters, then counters to the counter are found, and so on. Of course, I do not expect that level of...well, perfection, as it's basically impossible, BUT! That leads to...

Things aren't...accessible. Meta builds remain meta/uncountered because the counters either don't exist, or are so weak that taking them means such a decrease in effectiveness that it isn't worth the trouble. This mostly applies to utilities, traits, weapons, skills, etc, that are just not used because they're too weak. I would love it if the dev team took a look at bolstering up the lesser used utility and heal skills - I do not expect them to become META utility and heal skills, but having them be USABLE (emphasis) would be an excellent step in the right direction, and the design goal of 'usable but not meta' is imo an excellent design goal.

Lastly - still same 'sub'topic, but...elite skills. There's such al imited variety of them, and they vary from amazing, to mediocre, to awful (thieves guild, anyone?). Thieves guild is..plain bad. On the other hand, Daredevil's Impact Strike is pretty good, but isn't use due to the power of daggerstorm and how vulnerable thief is during a skill an opponent is given THREE opportunities to evade. It's important to look at why a skill isn't used - it's the difference between putting a stack of Aeigis on impact strike, OR a stack of stability, or frontal block, or unblockable. They are all buffs, but have vastly different impacts (HEH) on how they would boost the elite skill up. Also, a powerful elite skill is vital to a complete, well rounded class - look at how MUCH Rampage contributes to warrior's threat presence in a fight, for example.

Some things are so good that you can't NOT use them - the trait system limiting choicesThe best example of this is, imo, Trickery and thieves. How long have thieves been pidgeonholed into using trickery, leaving them only two other traitlines to switch about? Classes should have...how to say, functional mechanics on their own, with traitline choices serving to bolster, change, decrease, etc those mechanics in interesting combinations. Thief, to a certain extent, doesn't really function without Trickery - except if you want to run a permastealth, meme 1-shot build...which, I think, says a lot about the role Trickery has played in thief pvp builds and the state of thief balance. Mind you, this also applies to skills - for example, what is thief without shortbow#5?

On the other hand, this also applies to CLEANSE. What do I do if I want more cleanse? In most games, I can sacrifice x for y, and x is proportionate to y. I want more damage, I have to give up a certain amount of damage mitigation - be it health, armor, etc. In GW2, if I want to fare better against conditions, that is...not the case. What options do I have to switch around? Some traitlines just...don't really have accessable cleanse in them. The cleanse either just plain ol ISN'T THERE (which means I would have to change the entire trait line, which means opportunity cost, also see - trickery, which essentially CAN'T be changed), OR it competes with something it isn't equal with such as a GM trait important to my build. A good example of this is warrior's Defense line - they COULD get more cleanse by taking that GM trait at the end that...I think cleanses when you hit a burst skill? But they can't because it not only competes with the other GM traits and just doesn't provide ENOUGH, but also has a landing a hit requirement and requires the warr give up tactics, disc, whatever else they have in there. There is nothing I can give up to get cleanse that is worth what I gave up for it. I'm not even talking about...condi OP or whatever - the option ITSELF just isn't there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@shadowpass.4236 said:@viquing.8254

I'm not arguing balance anymore. I posted my suggestions. If you disagree with them that's fine.

As I said in last discussion post I will not let pass any no stat based or random whine anymore whatever it came from, particulary when it's based on pre-nerf years data.But just ignore my answer if you like it.

About above chrono discussion :Give chrono illusions more health = differenciate from core/mirage + illusion don't get instant killed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ArenaNet Staff

Hi again,

I wanted to swing by with an end-of-day update. I’ve really enjoyed seeing the community’s passion on balance and the overall state of the game. There were other topics that were brought up today, and we will create more specific discussions in the future. I will continue to monitor and gather feedback from the forums so keep posting your thoughts as you have them.

Going forward we want to keep our mission statement of being more communicative and including the community. So here are our next steps on the balance front:

There will be more posts going into further detail about our balance plans for the next patches. This will include a list of targeted changes for the next balance update as well as our high-level philosophy and vision for the more impactful patch coming later. We will continue to communicate with the community early and often in order to gather feedback on these changes, which will allow us to have a chance to iterate.

From the whole systems team, thanks everyone for your passion for competitive gw2 and the feedback you provided today.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a deadeye player this is my perspective:

Condi mirage is the most overpowered build in the game by far. The core design of multi-casting in mesmer (weapon/utils/shatters/clones) allows for a certain persistent offensive pressure that just works too well with condition damage; this is the same reason people complain about condition thief despite this only being true to a lesser extent with daredevil. This offensive pressure combined with the amount of defensive uptime condition mirage can manage essentially leaves it with no vulnerability windows and no major weaknesses.

  • You can't kite them well if at all because of their mobility in addition to bodyblocking from clones and reflects.
  • You can't offensively pressure them via melee because most of their damage mitigation doesn't occupy their casting queue, leaving them free to weapon attack and use utilities to punish you.
  • You can't reliably CC them because of access to stability/stunbreaks/mirage cloak evade and because MOST OF THEIR INVULN ANIMATIONS DONT PROPERLY RENDER. ESPECIALLY OUT OF STEALTH. This seems to be partly caused when they clone spam as the rendering engine just seemingly gives up with the sudden visual clutter.
  • You can't really avoid their damage because the core design of condition damage/application when combined with the multi-cast pressure of mirage means that evading even their condi burst you will probably lose half your health from passive clone application followed by autoattacks and AoE. Another issue being the efficacy of AI casters- clones are way too fast and way too persistently perfect in their attacks and I think if anything this speaks to overtly easy design of condition damage as I've never had issue with power mesmer/chrono/mirage clones.

@apharma.3741 said:Mirage: The ability to perform any action while dodging is at first not spooktacular until you realise that it allows you to always avoid damage while performing a crucial action or while casting. This essentially lets you bypass balancing by cast time as your defence is always available to use while remaining unpunished for using an ability and while others may have to cancel to avoid damage you don't. Additionally many of the ambush skills are over loaded in effects or conditions and I believe that torment and confusion should never be allowed to be applied in any substantial measure at the same time as the counter play is to stand there and do nothing if hit.


On Thief: I want to really stress how wrong a lot of people are about thief in general.

  • Condition daredevil might be annoying but that's all it is in my opinion. Unlike the aforementioned condition mirage, condition daredevil doesn't really have much in the way of sustain and relies too heavily on one or two attacks that can be avoided (steal/infiltrator's strike) leading them to be predictable and easy to manage. Every time thief has gotten a viable condition build it quickly gets nerfed because everyone bemoans the simplicity and ease despite this being chiefly an issue with the core design of condition damage itself... I don't play condition at all, but my main issue is that nerfing condition thief will almost certainly end up nerfing power S/D builds for the billionth time and power S/D is already pretty bad.
  • I didn't even really know about staff thief until this thread. People have been trying to make a viable bunker thief build since the dawn of time. It never works because thief just can't chain together mitigation by design, unlike firebrand/scrapper/druid/etc. Apparently it's popular in automated tournaments. I've only ever faced this build in ranked once, but anybody with a slight clue to the vulnerability frames on thief evades should be able to handle this build. Please do not nerf power staff builds as they are already largely irrelevant and you will be relegating them to further irrelevance.
  • Oneshot/stealth thief builds are extraordinarily gimmicky. They are absolutely sitting ducks 90% of the time. If anything needs to be changed its the stealth uptime shadow arts allows deadeye because that alone allows for these builds to exist.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

all classes - don't let them stack 25 might with ease or insane levels of + damage modifiers.turrets, spirits, minions, and elementals are all horribly outdated. I suggest going the spirit weapon route (strong actives).

war - rampage coefficients too high, put immob back on sword burst flaming flurry (remove projectiles, they fail at range anyway), update offhand sword and longbowrev - mostly good, power + condi burst still kinda ridiculous, renegade needs buffs (make summons invuln), reduce rev shield energy/ cd costs and give shield 4 more prot, make rev tablet instant travel (horrible feeling trying to heal people but they just walk out of where you thought they were going to be), salvation needs regen againguard - buff shattered aegis, make spirit shield apply weakness immediately, reduce dh f3 cd, reduce shelter cd, add new functionality to true shot, longbow auto kinda wonkyrang - reduce druid cd back to 10 and nerf druidic clarity, put resist and prot on ca 5, buff invigorating bond, buff soulbeast daggereng - nerf quickness and vigor uptime of holo, reduce heal turret sustain by a bit, add some cd to holo leap and remove swiftness, buff flamethrower power damage and all kits reallyteef - remove cripple from skirmishers shot and move it to spotters (remove immob, nerf cripple duration too cuz high damage range with infinite kite is a huge problem), remove panic strike poison on immob, buff power d/d, make pistol whip evade immediately like it was in the past but replace stun with dazemes - add an actual cd to pain mantra and remove might, flow of time current function plus illusions gain 2 sec of distortion when they are created, illusionary reversion whenever you create a clone create one more, buff distortion duration on continuum split to 2 sec per clone and make the thing on the ground invulnele - ah man they need an overhaul, give some weapons sustain without investing in heal power, ah f it make the conjures into kits, let weaver have access to their 3rd skill again by making the original 3rd skill in front and the dual attack a flip over skill on bottomnec - core shroud reduce life blast cast time, make unholy sanctuary a 1 sec invuln when entering shroud, give all necro weapons a lot of life force on their auto attacks, remove some cripple from scourge, should prob just remove shade range ability completely since it would make the whole thing less clunky

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"sinject.4607" said:As a deadeye player this is my perspective:Condi mirage is the most overpowered build in the game by far. The core design of multi-casting in mesmer (weapon/utils/shatters/clones) allows for a certain persistent offensive pressure that just works too well with condition damage; this is the same reason people complain about condition thief despite this only being true to a lesser extent with daredevil. This offensive pressure combined with the amount of defensive uptime condition mirage can manage essentially leaves it with no vulnerability windows and no major weaknesses.

  • You can't kite them well if at all because of their mobility in addition to bodyblocking from clones and reflects.
  • You can't offensively pressure them via melee because most of their damage mitigation doesn't occupy their casting queue, leaving them free to weapon attack and use utilities to punish you.
  • You can't reliably CC them because of access to stability/stunbreaks/mirage cloak evade and because MOST OF THEIR INVULN ANIMATIONS DONT PROPERLY RENDER. ESPECIALLY OUT OF STEALTH. This seems to be partly caused when they clone spam as the rendering engine just seemingly gives up with the sudden visual clutter.
  • You can't really avoid their damage because the core design of condition damage/application when combined with the multi-cast pressure of mirage means that evading even their condi burst you will probably lose half your health from passive clone application followed by autoattacks and AoE. Another issue being the efficacy of AI casters- clones are way too fast and way too persistently perfect in their attacks and I think if anything this speaks to overtly easy design of condition damage as I've never had issue with power mesmer/chrono/mirage clones.Sadly this is not what streams show.Isn't just that your build is hardcountered ? I can see some melee deadeye builds who can manage well against mirage.I mean I don't post an op post everytime a thief kill me on power mesmer/mirage while it hardcounter it since release.About the "CC imune" : just count the 2 evade then CC burst if I can win on a powermirage versus condimirage it's because condimirage have a really slow setup before damage start to hurt and very visible animations on ambush.It's good in a game to have strength and weakness over differents situations.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...