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Let's Talk About PvP Balance

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  • The main issues I have with PvP balance and how classes fight out is that active defense and offense are both far too powerful and removes any reactivity from fights. Many of the builds I've seen have degenerated to strategies of either alpha-striking and stunlocking someone to death within a few seconds, or being able to constantly evade, block, invuln, etc to the point where hitting them is near impossible (some builds have bits of both and phase between the two). Support firebrands get by without these exact strategies but their healing and boon capability is so strong that they don't care about someone trying to bash their face in until they have to fight multiple opponents.

    Combined with the extreme offensive power some classes have, the only way that evasion can be reliably used is preemptively, chaining it together in some static rotation/combo that doesn't allow any counterplay because if someone does manage to land one hit through it all, it snowballs the other way into a very fast kill.

    Overall what I would like to see... basically amounts to nerfs across the board with the intent of slowing combat down. More limitation on chain evades/invulns, lower offensive power across the board (so that being hit doesn't immediately end you), and healing set to some level that can't be infinitely sustained in a 1v1 with a damage-heavy class (Being able to drag the fight out with a support setup is expected, but doing that to infinity promotes bunkering too much imo).

  • Derm.4932Derm.4932 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    In terms of meta outliers that are too strong(there are too many on the other end of the spectrum to list) the obvious culprits are:

    Holo: Like many have said, the sustain and damage combination is way too high. Many people have offered good suggestions to nerf one or the other, namely big reductions to heat therapy or stab/quickness.

    Condi Thief: Just really annoying to play against. Not nearly as bad as old condi thief, but enough to warrant looking at it.
    Staff Thief: This playstyle is just really cheese. Again, not the most egregious thing that has been in the game, but no serious PvP game should allow something as cheese are near permanent evade.

    Tactics Warrior: Healing on might gain was uncalled for and really messed with warrior balance. ATM it has incredible sustain and damage just from might.

    When it comes to the big picture power levels, I'd take a look at things like support Tempest, DH - basically classes that have remained without significant changes since the release of PoF. These specs imo represent a fairly decent state of balance. Fun to play(and play against), excels in some areas, but with clear weaknesses. Since the release of PoF these classes have been largely irrelevant due to power creeped specs that can do everything(sustain, damage, utility in the form of boons or mobility)

  • DarkShadow.8172DarkShadow.8172 Member
    edited October 23, 2019

    There are a few fundamental problems I personally have with pvp, and a few that i've heard others complain about.

    • Build variety- In most of the competitive scene, builds that are meta are practically all that is viable. And in pvp, there's generally only one meta build for pvp per class. (maybe per elite spec, but this isn't true for all classes. Renegade for example, or the recently nerfed scourge). Before nerfing things, I'd like to see buffs. SIGNIFICANT buffs to unused traits, weapon sets, and utility skills. On core thief, s/d has been viable for forever and running Deadly arts + Trickery has and always been the superior trait lines. This makes reworked Shadow arts and Critical strikes unused because of the X factor that they lack or the tradeoffs that aren't worth it. Please put more variety in builds per class to really shake up the meta and bring new counters in matchups. (shorbow/shortbow thief? why not!) I feel like this would not only make pvp more fun due to the variety in playstyle, but also help identify which classes/abilities really do need to be tuned down or monitered. Before all the nerfs, I used to run Dagger Dagger daredevil. It was extremely fun (regardless of not being meta), and it wasn't the worst. No oneshot potential, and decent outplay potential. It wasn't bad, but not necessarily good either.
    • Fundamentality of Roles- This ties in with build variety, but is very concerning to me. **Nerfs and buffs that are applied to one class affect how it performs on it's role. ** Previously, patches have come out to push Daredevil into a duelist, for example the swipe change (which is an entirely different conversation btw). I love to play Daredevil, but if you want me to play like a duelist, I might as well play Soulbeast or Holo as it's much more efficient and adds more to the table.
  • Too many classes have access to perma boons (25 might and prot are the culprits here - see soulbeast and Holo) boons should create windows of opportunity for opponent players to go on the offensive or defensive when they are able to create a small boon advantage, not allow them to be unkillable AND dealing huge damage with no vulnerable windows.

    Corrupts create too much cover condos, requiring huge amounts of condo clear, making builds that focus on a single condi useless or builds that lack consistent condi clear deadweight. Each class (or elite spec) should be tied to 2-3 condos only and should focus primarily on applying those condos. Corrupts should not work on a direct boon -> condo conversation but rather convert any number of boons into a specific condi. Eg a scourge boon corrupt will always strip x boons and then apply always y torment and y cripple (as those are it's class condos). Then mass condi clear can be reduced.
    Bonus idea - condos are split into two groups damage and debuffs. Condi cleanses are split into two groups, mass and singular. Mass cleanses remove all debuffs but never damaging condos, allowing windows of opportunity. Singular cleanses remove the current highest dps condi on you. This prevents damage condos to be covered by debuffs and allows more decesion making during fights.

    Dodge spam - the +30/40% endurance foods are much to strong, now that classes can use Dodge to remain invulnerable AND apply pressure (thrift warrior Holo mirage) remove them. Also look at sigil of energy. Dodges should be a fight changer that is well timed, not something that is spammed constantly.

    Heal spam - too many traits provide massive health regeneration over time for no cost -especially when paired with perma protection and infinite Dodges creates way too much sustain for little investment.

    Permastealth - remove the 'marked debuff' remove cd on missed theif stealth attacks. After 3/4 seconds in stealth characters now start to fade back into visibility while they continue to remain in stealth. Basically after a short while in stealth they should start to look to enemy players like the translucent version of themselves that you see on your own screen when stealthed. This give you short stealth windows while in combat and 'semi stealth' over your long permastealths that a vigilant enemy could still track you in.

    Buff backstab damage but make it apply a short stun/imobilize, and then the damage after a delay. The skill itself is still then a surprise from stealth with big damage, but has counterplay because if the enemy can stun break OR condicleanse they are spared the backstab damage.

    Base HP - since the game came out it has become much more spammy with classes having access to more and more skills on lower CDs with high damage. This leaves low hp classes like theif and ele more vulnerable than ever as a single mistake can outright kill them. HP is your blanket against burst but with such low values these classes are forced to invest into it to get any semblance of survivability. When you consider it also takes 3 other attributes to do any considerable power damage you can see why thief is always shoehorned into marauder as their only stay option. This contributes to the prevalence of the current condo theif build as it needs only 2 offensive attributes opening more opportunities to shore up it's low survivability and creating a low skillcap build

  • @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

    Very near future release note:

    • Deadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison has been decreased from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
      We're not sure it's enough but hopefully a good start.

    As a main Thief (I play power builds and not condi S/D daredevil): this change is absolutely wrong and harmful.
    When you want to balance a build you should focus on the problem:
    1. Daredevil condi S/D build was a problem until July 10 2018 balance patch (when you nerfed Potent Poison, Uncatchable, Bewildering Ambush and Lotus Training all together) and at that time Deadly Ambition had not yet been added to the game.
    2. Deadly ambition works fine by itself (in fact nobody complains about core condi D/P or Daredevil D/D, which both use Deadly ambition), the problem is the interaction between Deadly ambition (+Potent Poison) and Panic Strike (+Potent Poison). Nerf hard Deadly ambition will only kill builds diveristy, without solve the true problem.
    3. The true problem of condi thieves currently is the no sense amount of poison they can stack and this is true for all the condi build that can spam immobilize (thanks to Panic Strike): Condi DE (with Spotter's Shot + Panic Strike + Deadly Ambition + Leeching Venoms), Condi S/D Daredevil (Infiltrator's Strike + Panic Strike + Deadly Ambition), Condi Shadow Arts P/D (Body Shot + Panic Strike + Deadly Ambition + Leeching Venoms). If you do some accounts, you'll see that, in the short term, Deadly Ambition has a minor result that Panic Strike in term of damage.

    @Jekkt.6045 said:
    s/d + sb condi daredevil:
    many people dislike this build quite a lot but i actually think its power level is fine. what i don't like about this build is that it operates with way less skills than power s/d and d/p that have to use multiple skills to deal damage while condi mainly uses infiltrator's strike.

    @Falan.1839 said:
    Daredevil: The Condition variant is a bit easier to kill, but still has a very high dodge uptime. The problem here is that it does very high pressure on essentialle passive/instant effects like sword 2 and dodge. It basically doesnt ever have to use AA, or other sword skills, just the Sword 2 port, dodge and and occasional steal provide for tons of condition pressure that gets constantly reapplied.

    This is what I was talking about: why spam Infiltrator's Strike? Of course not cause Deadly Ambition (that works with every attack) but cause Panic Strike.

    1. The simplest and most effective solution will be restore the old Panic Strike trait removing the two poison stacks that PS applies. In this way you will tone down the initial burst combo damage (-2 poison stacks) and you'll prevent the Infiltrator's Strike spam achieving both the nerf of Condi Daredevil S/D and the keeping of S/D power mechanics.

    Please, try to test what I wrote!! Good job and have a nice day!

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Itz Jay.8941 said :
    Nerf condi mirage hard, this spec has so much evasion it should be pushed more into playing power or hybrid

    False, It has less evade uptime than many other metaclass when looking at vigor uptime, endurance regeneration and evade skills.

    If you ignore there was a year of nerf, your post is useless.


    Duelist’s Discipline
    - Problem: Combined with Sharper Images, this trait means that Phantasmal Duelist alone can apply anywhere from 8-16 stacks of long-duration bleeding. Also, coupled with Mirage’s exceptionally high access to CC’s, this means that pistol skills can recharge nearly instantly.
    - Solution: Currently, this trait bleeds on EVERY hit from pistol attacks from you and your illusions. Instead, change this to 33% chance to bleed on CRITICAL hits like most other bleeding-related traits. Also, remove the 25% cooldown reduction on interrupt and make it a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills.

    You know that it's normal for a spell with 20+ sec CD, 0.5 sec cast, visible animation to hit for 6 to 8k over 3+sec ? Specialy when traiting for this ?
    It's better to have an instant direct 5k on many skill with bugged or no animation like some class can do ?

    Sharper Images
    - Problem: Again, this trait is 100% chance on critical hits to apply a 5-8 second bleed (Carrion vs. Deadshot amulet). This results in insane amounts of bleeding stacks with little effort on the mesmer’s part.
    - Solution: Similar to Sharpened Edges, Sharpshooter, Barbed Precision, and Bloodlust (basically every single bleed-on-attack related trait), make it 33% on critical hits and reduce the bleeding duration to 3 seconds because the effect can trigger from 3 different sources.

    All the class you link didn't have viable condi build, maybe there is something linked, dunno.

    Infinite Horizon
    - Problem: These trait multiplies the effectiveness of a Mirage’s ambush skills by FOUR times. Instead of using lesser versions of ambush skills, every illusion uses the exact same attack the player uses. This results in: 4 dazes from Mirage Thrust, 25 stacks of torment and bleeding from Imaginary Axes, 10-15 stacks of confusion, torment and bleeding from Ether Barrage, and 4 stacks of burning and 10-16 stacks of torment and bleeding from Chaos Vortex. Keep in mind, these ambush attacks can be SPAMMED and all of these conditions I listed are applied PER USE.

    Lol at the link from 1 years.
    Ok it's not possible now to do this.
    Aaand : Problem : how mirage put pressure without IH ?
    Keep in mind these ambush can't be spammed because you haven't neither perma vigor, neither endurance regen, neither other way to sustain than evade.

    • Solution: The ambush attacks from illusions still trigger but ONLY the animation and minor power damage. They should NOT apply any conditions or other effects. This trait should be used to confuse enemies not obliterate them with multiple, high condition stacks.

    People, like write in this thread are actually enough confuse with illusions, I'm sure they prefer took the damage while just the mesmer attack buffed with the number of illusion than the opposite.

    Mirage Cloak
    - Problem: Dodging while disabled should not exist.

    CC fiesta on every class shouldn't exist while no building into it.
    Passive autostab or other CC immune should neither exist.
    Fix theses first plz.

    • Solution: Remove the ability to dodge while disabled.

    Did you find viable build on core mesmer without stealth ? Once you show me a prove that this kind of build can even be considered, you can apply your solution.

    Illusionary Counter

    • Problem: This skill is a 4.75 second cooldown, 2 second duration block that summons 2 clones and applies 7 stacks of torment (5 on trigger, 1 per clone).

    This skill as a 8 sec cooldown and apply 5 stack of torment. (the 600 damage from clone can be deleted.).
    Strangely you miss to talk about confusing image who does less damage than other class similar weapon for same gear ?

    • Solution: Increase the cooldown to 10 seconds (8 seconds while traited) and reduce the torment on trigger to 3.

    Solution 1 : don't rollface.
    Solution 2 : cleanse.
    Solution 3 : evade during the counter effect.
    Solution 4 : be out of range.
    Solution 5 : use a unblocable skill.
    Solution 7 : use a evade while attacking/blocking skill like many spec can do.
    Solution 6 : LoS.

  • Force.2841Force.2841 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    I can only speak from my small scale roaming experience. Obviously most of us won't post videos to back up our argument but hope at least you're willing to listen.
    For my personally it blows my mind how some builds are allowed to exist, and how some logic isn't used to realize this is OP. Again this is just my experience from roaming since release and the current meta.

    An example is the insane stealth dead eyes have. If you're going to engage in combat, then you have agreed to fight, but no instead of a pvp fight all you get is a class that can harass you and leave at will without consequence. (yes ive killed many dead eyes, some who actually make a mistake after 5 minutes of bs stealthing, but thats not the majority, most dead eyes that aren't terrible, can and will completely leave if they don't kill you)

    Are we not here to pvp? If you want to run then maybe pvp/wvw isn't your thing after all? You just want kills but arn't willing to accept that maybe you don't understand the mechanics and lack the skill to actually have some type of real pvp go on.

    Another example is boon beast rangers. Not complaining about rangers specifically but, how is a build allowed to have so much sustain yet decent damage still? Not only that I've seen builds that can just stealth>swoop>longbow nonstop. You're just not gonna catch that, at the very least pvp shouldn't be able some class being able to run for ages while you spam w.e small gap closer you have to catch up to them.

    Another example is mesmers, why is it that a mesmer can yet again engage a fight, and then realize their opponent is superior to them so they can blink out of combat so fast and thats not including the stealth they have already, the invuln, etc.

    My point is, for a game mode based on pvp, it should be encouraged that if you engage in a fight, then there must be some type of consequence, not just be rewarded with escapes because youre running a build that can leave anytime and "kite" for days.

    Not sure what it will take, maybe nerf some gap closers, some stealth, but stop rewarding builds that give the players the cheese to escape fights, if a player engages in combat or gets caught in combat, its time to stay and fight not run and kill the game mode by not providing anything but your escape.

    I main weaver sword/f and so many times can some cheese builds just run away, yet I can switch over to my zerk ranger and be lazy and just spam my longbow and then run away with GS and stealth and get easy results.

  • Just a request for shorter or eliminated downtime during off-competitive season. I just wanna play and not have a two week downtime. I don't know how much is automated, but if it's possible to reduce it, it would be great! Thanks!

  • Mirages are disgusting since they can dodge whenever they want.

    Every class gets into a trouble when they got CCed, slapped on the ground vulnerably which Mirage doesn't. They just dodge even if they sleeping on the ground. "Oh, I can dodge even if you daze/launch/stun/push/pull/imobil/fear/taunt me! You can't hurt me with your keystone attack!"

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254

    I'm not arguing balance anymore. I posted my suggestions. If you disagree with them that's fine.

  • Okami Amaterasu.9237Okami Amaterasu.9237 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    So here's just my quick thoughts on Thief and its Stealth and Shadowstepping in its current form to see if that will improve the game in the future.

    I think it's better for both PvP and WvW for those two class mechanics of Thieves (Stealthing and Teleporting/Shadowstepping) to be more exclusive from one another. I don't think it's fun for anyone to fight against a class that can stealth and then teleport away while stealthed to heal up or even get out of combat and not have enough counters for it.

    I don't think it's healthy balance when a Deadeye can jump back with Death's Retreat several times in a row, stealth for over 10 seconds straight, and then be able to one-shot your class if they're using a one-shot power Amulet, without having enough counters for it since there isn't enough Revealed on weapon/utility skills or traits.

    If you don't have revealed, the counter to someone Stealthing is just waiting for it to run out on them. The counter for shadowstepping/teleporting is anticipating it (which is difficult on its own for Thief's Steal and Sword 2 since they don't have obvious tells) or simply try to move and catch up and cripple/chill/immobilize them, or attack from afar if you have a good enough ranged weapon on your class.

    The problem is when they're both combined: you can wait for someone to come out of stealth but they never do because they're already at least 1200 range away after stealthing, or you can try to catch up after they teleport away in view but then they stealth and you have no idea if they're coming back towards you or running away further, etc. etc.

    To make it simpler, I don't think that "Shadowstep" and "Shadow Return" should be Deception skills and that Sword 2 shouldn't be as easy to use back and forth and back and forth. I also think Deadeye needs a different Elite Skill - being able to remove Revealed from a class that can stealth on a dodge just isn't balanced.

    Also every profession should have at Least 1 skill that applies Revealed, not only to help counter Thieves and some of their perma-stealth builds, but also the occasional Mesmer, Ranger, or Engineer if they're using stealth. For example, no Elementalists or Mesmers can apply Revealed on any of their skills, so they should at least have 1 available somewhere as a buff.

    Perhaps in return Thief can have a slightly higher HP pool to start out with? Maybe that's giving too much, but yes Thieves are a bit too squishy and one-shot-like when they finally get caught, both in PvP and WvW.

    Hopefully that all made sense.

  • Kahrgan.7401Kahrgan.7401 Member ✭✭✭

    Everyone complains about condi thief... I have no issues fighting them on any of my classes.. except necro.

    Mirages on the other hand, are just plain stupid. CC, immunities, dodges, and the visual spam + target clearing.. You cant have your cake, your neighbors cake, and your kids cake, and eat it too.

    Warriors numbers are bloated, everything is just too good. Rampage especially, 50% dmg reduction?? That's a mad-mans number. It should take increased dmg... not decreased.

    Scourge is too skilless, and you can just spam all your kitten in a row. Low effort.

    Holo is even less skilless. just spam your buttons 2 3 5 4 1 2 dodge dodge repeat and if you get into trouble, just use your plethora of skills to get out of jail free.

    Weaver utilities pass out passive condis... free dmg should not be passive, ever, imo. Survivability should not be passive. You should have to THINK about your actions and how to turn the tide of a fight.

    Traps are lame, on every class. Traps shouldn't apply enough condi to fully kill someone from 100 to downed. They should be tertiary damage, or no dmg at all (in pvp at least)

    Rev is the only class where I think the state is okay, not too much dmg (if you die from a rev and come here to complain, thats a YOU problem) and not too much survivability.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    OK, without much explanation as to "Why" I'm going to toss my list of direct skill splits. It should be noted that I am basing this list on aiming at bringing overperforming specs down to the level of Spellbreaker, and bringing underperforming specs up to the level of Spellbreaker. This is because I feel Spellbreaker is the best model we have that displays a strong overall balance in performance value as well as "It feels good to play as and play against." This list is in the order of class performance tiers, as I had listed in my previous post. The top is the best performing class and the bottom is the worst performing class:

    OUTLIERS AT THE TOP WHICH ARE COMMONLY SEEN AS OVERPOWERED BY THE MAJORITY OF THE PLAYER BASE:

    Holosmith
    1. It needs a real damage shave. Forge skills need damage splits.
    2. Too much sustain. Heat Therapy heal factor should be halved in competitive modes.
    3. Photon Forge needs to be on at least a 9 second cool down, just like everything else in the game.

    Condi Thieves of all types
    1. Deadly Arts needs that good nerfing. Ben already had mentioned something that should significantly lower the consistent pressure.

    Staff/Staff Daredevil
    1. Really, just the animation exploits need to be fixed.
    2. If that is not possible, Staff Master & Brawler's Tenacity need less endurance regen, and evade frames need to be slightly shortened on Staff skills.

    CLASSES THAT REPRESENT ACCEPTABLE BALANCE BY MOST OF THE PLAYER BASE:

    Spellbreaker <- This is the type of play dynamic that offers great counter play while playing as or against it, that I'd like to see in other classes all around the board. It also represents a sound balance in overall level of power
    1. Leave it the way that it is. The only exception that could see some change would be....
    2. Rampage could use a bit less duration on its CC skills.

    Condi Mirage
    1. Clone Ambush damage needs to be turned down a bit.
    2. Put that missing Clone Ambush damage back into Shatter play, which would encourage more active offense and less 100% defensive attrition play.

    Firebrand
    1. Leave it the way that it is.
    2. The way to address any complaint about Firebrand would be to enhance other supports, not to nerf Firebrand.

    Herald
    1. Gaze Of Darkness has way too large of a radius. Herald already has the strongest chase potential in the game through Unrelenting Assault and Phase Traversal. It does not need a 600 radius reveal that works without a target. Either significantly nerf the radius on Gaze of Darkness or make it a single target reveal that requires a target to use, and you could increase it's radius to 800 to compensate.

    Core Ranger & Soulbeast
    1. People HATE Ranger/Soulbeast Longbows because of the high damage at 1500 range. Real simple split, let's not make this complex, just normalize the damage on Longbow autos at all ranges. Make 1500 range deal the same damage as mid range and make close range deal as much damage as mid range. This way the Ranger/Soulbeast's 1500 burst lies only within Rapid Fire/Barrage which is easy tells & easy avoids. After that, it can no longer pop players for 4k-6k autos at 1500 range. Then to compensate it can brawl better at close range with the LB while stuck in the 9s LB swap.
    2. Pets: People complain about pets for the same reason they complain about Deadeyes, it's annoying. But there is a big difference between something being annoying and something actually being overpowered. The truth is that Ranger/Soulbeast is in no viable state to be competitive in top tier play or Monthly ATs. The truth is that Ranger/Soulbeast, although pretty viable in the hands of the right player, just plainly lacks the utilities that the abovementioned classes possess. In all seriousness, pets are the only way for a Ranger/Soulbeast to achieve the type of utility that the abovementioned classes possess or at least maintain the utility that they have now. If you start nerfing pets, Ranger/Soulbeast is going to have a lot of problems mechanically that would be difficult to compensate for because their kit is their pet. They don't have a big list of F skills to be tinkered with and patched. The Soulbeast gets 3 F skills while merged and only 1 or 2 of them are ever useful. Then he gets 1 F skill while out of merge. A Core Ranger gets 1 F skill and that's it. If you start nerfing pets, Core Ranger disappears completely. Soulbeast would also struggle. Please ignore "nerf pets" suggestions. On the other hand, I can say that Smokescale is too strong on Soulbeast due to Smoke Assault. I know a lot of other Ranger mains probably don't want to hear me say that but it is true. If anything, The merged skill Smoke Assault should receive a slight damage shave. Then other pet merge skills as well as the pets themselves, should receive buffs. Almost all of the core pets and even most of the new expansion pets, are completely useless because they offer little to no utility at all. But it should be the right kinds of buffs and the right kinds of utility added for the build archetypes that would consider using them. Things that matter.
    3. Condi Rangers & Soulbeasts: These builds are incredibly not viable at all in spvp. When compared to other condi specs such as Condi Mirage or Condi Daredevil, the Ranger/Soulbeast attempting to run condi just completely lacks the survival mechanics needed to live long enough to actually land opportunities to apply the short handed damage that it has. The only reason these builds were ever viable in raids/fractals is because monsters stand there and don't move out of an enormous damage rotation that is applied over a long duration of time at point blank range, while a team of 9 other people are tossing boons. In competitive modes, the Condi Ranger/Soulbeast has no disengage, ill mobility compared to its power variants, bad sustain compared to its power variants due to how traits have to be set if you want damage at all, and bad damage potential in general compared to power variants. I mean when you compare the damage that a Viper Shortbow Ranger/Soulbeast can land with a short opportunity vs. what a Power Longbow Ranger/Soulbeast can land with a short opportunity, it isn't even in the ballpark of the same level of threat that the Power Ranger possesses. The Condi Ranger/Soulbeast doesn't need damage buffing or sustain buffing, what it needs is utility. A few suggestions for skill split: 1) Shortbow 3 Quickshot should apply 2s of Superspeed to help the Condi Ranger/Soulbeast kite better. As of now it's kind of a sitting duck to everything else in the game that now has great mobility. 2) Shortbow 5 Concussion Shot should be a 2 ammo skill. 3) Ranger Dagger offhand 4 Stalker's Strike, just remove that awkward roll animation for the evasion. It's clunky and has never really felt right. Replace it with a normal strike animation that applies the poisons as normal, but grants a short 1s evasion while striking. These changes would in every way create a more similar applicable defensive counter play balance with Short Bow & Variable/Dagger as compared to Longbow & Great Sword play. With those types of changes, a Condi Ranger/Soulbeast might actually be a viable side node duelist or at the least, a decent team fight assist.

    Weaver
    1. I don't know enough about this class to make any solid suggestions. I can say however, that if you guys are planning on dealing out some nerfs to curb popularly complained about specs, if Weaver is ignored it'll be the next new OP class.

    Core Warrior
    1. This +50% vs. barrier thing https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warrior's_Cunning Yeah that part just needs to be removed. It's too much. It can keep +25% vs. above 90% health, which is fine.

    Power Mirage
    1. It's fine, leave it alone. Aside from an extremely small representation of players who make this build look godly, it really isn't.

    Core Guardian
    1. It's in a good spot for a core build. I don't feel it needs anything done to it at all.

    Deadeye
    1. The class is balanced. It really is, aside from what other people may complain about. The problem with Deadeye is not balance in overall effectiveness towards how it contributes to a match vs. other builds, but rather how it counters some things way too hard and gets countered by other things way too hard. Where to even begin on this? I honestly don't know as I am no DE main. I'll leave this kind of speculation to the DE players.

    Reaper
    1. It doesn't work well right now because there is so much condi in the meta, and Reaper cannot cleanse condis while in Shroud unless it takes the new Death Magic traits, which renders it with too little damage to do what it needs to do to have a job role at all. When I say condis that it can't cleanse, I don't mean simply damaging condis. I'm talking about things like perma weakness that rolls off of Condi Thieves, or Immobilizations. Reapers can't deal with this stuff. Perhaps Relentless Pursuit, which reduces the durations of movement impairing condis, should also apply that bonus to weakness as well.

    Core Necromancer
    1. It's in a good place for a Core build. If anything, its shroud skills could use a very slight buff to damage.

    Scourge
    1. Put the pulse back around the Scourge for spvp. That split needs to happen.
    2. Turn the targets back down to 5 only. Yes, it does matter. Clones & pets & other AIs do encompass beyond 5 target cleave limit rather often in team fights.

    Core Mesmer/Chrono
    1. I don't know enough about this to really make any sound statements. I did have a person mention to me recently though that, the reason why Chrono is dead is because it has no Infinite Horizon Mirage Cloak effect to grant illusions, which means they die too fast with the power creep to do what they need to do.

    Scrapper
    1. It's not that its underpowered as much as it is it has no discernable job role at this point. I'm no Scrapper main so I should leave suggestions to the Scrapper players.

    Condi Revenant/Herald
    1. These builds are stronger than people realize. However I don't understand too well, so I'll leave it to Revenant/Herald players.

    Druid
    1. Put the evade frame back on Ancestral Grace. That change hurt Druid play in detrimental ways that it cannot make up for.
    2. CA Kit 1 Cosmic Ray. This skill should also apply regeneration.
    3. CA Kit 2 Seed of Life. This skill should clear 3 condis AoE and apply 2s of Resistance.
    4. CA Kit 3 Lunar Impact. This skill should also steal 2 boons from every opponent it strikes.
    5. CA Kit 4 Rejuvenating Tides. This skill should be half the cast time and pulse protection to allies. The water field should also activate after the cast, so that the Druid can better utilize the field.
    6. CA Kit 5 Natural Convergence should be brought to a 1 second cast time and pulse Stability to 5 targets. In addition to the 5 target Immobilization, it should also land a 5 target Stun.
    7. ^ Changes like this would make a Druid on par with a Firebrand for Support role.

    Core Ele/Tempest
    1. Core Ele is fine as a Core class. If anything it could use a little bit of damage in the right places.
    2. Tempest needs its Support role buffed.

    Dragonhunter
    1. True Shot needs to be buffed again. With high DPS Power Soulbeasts & Deadeyes or even FA Eles around, DH has no purpose with such weak ranged. The only thing that ever made DH dangerous and work, is that the ranged attacks from the LB used to be dangerous. This made it confusing as to if you should be close range or mid range or long range to the DH. Now that the LB damage is so weak in comparison to other things, it isn't hard to kite around the DH and pop his traps from easy tells, and go in at him melee. The ranged needs to be buffed on DH, specifically True Shot.
    2. The pull on F1 could also use a split to reduce its cool down a bit.

    Berserker
    1. Honestly I don't feel much can be done here without bloating the specialization. The damage output is already insane, and if you guys start adding defensive mechanisms into it, it could easily become over powered. I don't know. I'll let the Warrior mains comment on this. But Berserker as of now is just kind of bad and at the bottom of the list of "barely acceptable"

    OUTLIERS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST THAT ARE IN NO WAY ACCEPTABLE FOR COMPETITIVE MODES

    Core Engineer
    1. Oh buddy. How to even fix this without buffing Holosaiyan? I'll leave this up to the Engi mains. But I'll point out now that this should be handled very carefully. As of now Core Engineer is just terrible.

    Renegade
    1. Boy oh boy is it bad. It completely lacks defensive mechanisms to do what it needs to do. I won't make specific suggestions here, but maybe some of its skills should have some evades or other defensive mechanisms implemented into them.

    ~ I left GW2 on 11/22/2020 due to widespread cheating and the lack of action to moderate it

  • 1) Revert recent Scourge changes for PvP.
    2) Nerf staff thief.
    3) Revert Rev staff 2 back to what it was prior to its change to the pitiful skill it is atm.

    Insert a random accomplishment that nobody cares about here
    Hi I'm important

  • @romano.8170 said:

    1) Revert recent Scourge changes for PvP.
    2) Nerf staff thief.
    3) Revert Rev staff 2 back to what it was prior to its change to the pitiful skill it is atm.

    Oh yeah, bring back ToL.
    Bolster MaT rewards. Winner should get a full set of ascended armor at the very least instead of 2 or 3 pieces (Or however many pieces it gets you.)

    Insert a random accomplishment that nobody cares about here
    Hi I'm important

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    I'm just going to poke my head in here regarding Mirage in general, not necessarily for the next patch, but for the future if you have any major overhaul planned.
    .
    Currently what we have is a one-dimensional playstyle due to the direction of nerfs, homogenising the most optimal play into clone ambush spam and condi application, heavily relying on both crutches of Infinite Horizon and Deceptive Evasion, as particularly ambushes are not good enough without both of these. Right now I argue Axe is not adequately playable without both IH and DE together – meaning the player ambush is meaningless without clones to supplement. Staff also. This is a huge problem that needs to be addressed.
    .
    In general I would like maintain and further encourage the thematic playstyle of being able to use mind tricks, blend with clones etc - deception with clones as foundation gameplay, through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe for example some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
    .
    The primary benefits for choosing Mirage in my opinion should be:

    • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
    • ability to put dodge evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. On this point, contrary to usual I believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage, and the player where to burn the resource - limitations of this resource impacting not only defence but situational offence also.

    I understand that the Grandmaster Major traits are intended to be three choices for dodge modification analagous to Daredevil's final tier traits - however I think it is shown over the last two years that while it might appear satisfying on paper, there are so many issues with the Grandmaster Major traits that this whole concept of final tier dodge modification needs to be rethought. Mirage isn't similar to Daredevil - the obvious fact being the existence of clones - and the design of the entire trait line should be looked at to better support this.
    .
    So, for the foundation, to move mirage into being more unique compared with Core and Chrono, can encourage and focus on the following key features:
    .
    IH becoming grandmaster minor trait so you can balance the whole spec around it, together with rethinking of what the top/bottom/middle line, adept/master/grandmaster tiers should be. Could have it as Top line being Utility (Self Deception, new Mirror trait, Dune Cloak), Middle line being Defensive (regen, protection, redesigned Elusive Mind), Bottom Line being Offensive (Riddle of Sand, Axe trait, new offensive GM major trait).
    The whole final tier of traits should be changed and reintegrated around the thematic deceptive foundation of clones dodging with and performing the same attack (ambush) as the player.
    .
    Move most of the damage onto player ambush and reduce it from clone ambush. Player ambush should be impactful and rewarded for landing, Clone ambush should be the "red herring" that opponents should learn to spot the player ambush from the clone ambushes thus avoiding most of the damage. Additionally player ambush damage should be further increased by x amount for each active clone, so existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush - increasing direct damage and maybe adding condi stacks etc.
    .
    Modified shatters to compensate for "improved" auto attacks (ambushes). It seems clear you want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account.
    To further differentiate Mirage from Core Mesmer, it would be interesting to see F skills become debuff or indirectly boosting follow up player ambush damage and utility. Eg, F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage compared with Core. F3 could do shorter duration daze and then give eg 1s daze to your next ambush attack. F2 could be essentially Riddle of Sand built in.
    If self shatter is removed (I strongly believe it shouldn’t, and also should be returned to Chrono) F4 could become "Desert Distortion". Eg 1s distortion like Continuum Split, and all clones become mirrors (for the record I prefer normal Distortion, but given what has happened with Continuum Split it is likely F4 could get a similar style of change on Mirage, unless self-shatter gets restored to Chrono). But this depends if you decide to restore it to Chrono or not. This could go several ways, and either way it would need some deep thinking about how clones work and how they could/should work.
    .
    Scenarios for both of the above:
    So if for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something, this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush.
    .
    It would be interesting to see a dynamic ambush damage system for player ambush, where:

    • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.
    • So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc – rather than the clones applying it themselves.

    For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:

    • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.
    • Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

    All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves largely not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack.

    .

    Final note - I think it goes without saying that Speed of Sand is a joke as a separate trait - should be integrated with baseline mechanic of Mirage Cloak.
    .
    In any case much of the above hinges on two possibilities:

    • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place).
    • change how clones work (very broad).

    I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough. Whatever happens there directly affects what should or should not happen with Mirage shatters and function.

    My ears, how are you! | Hammer Mesmer - elite spec concept.

  • Long-term:
    I would like to see each class be able to have a competitive and viable damage build, support build, and control (bunker) build.
    This would require more than just splits, but as I have felt this has always been the spirit of the GW2 and I would like to see it a reality.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    The Meta exists, but it is not healthy
    In a healthy meta, builds 'circulate' so to speak. One tactic is dubbed the most effective until someone finds an accessible counter to that tactic, and so things change. In an ideal scenario, the healthiest meta would be one where the devs change nothing, but gameplay is changing constantly as meta builds are made, counters, then counters to the counter are found, and so on. Of course, I do not expect that level of...well, perfection, as it's basically impossible, BUT! That leads to...

    Things aren't...accessible. Meta builds remain meta/uncountered because the counters either don't exist, or are so weak that taking them means such a decrease in effectiveness that it isn't worth the trouble. This mostly applies to utilities, traits, weapons, skills, etc, that are just not used because they're too weak. I would love it if the dev team took a look at bolstering up the lesser used utility and heal skills - I do not expect them to become META utility and heal skills, but having them be USABLE (emphasis) would be an excellent step in the right direction, and the design goal of 'usable but not meta' is imo an excellent design goal.

    Lastly - still same 'sub'topic, but...elite skills. There's such al imited variety of them, and they vary from amazing, to mediocre, to awful (thieves guild, anyone?). Thieves guild is..plain bad. On the other hand, Daredevil's Impact Strike is pretty good, but isn't use due to the power of daggerstorm and how vulnerable thief is during a skill an opponent is given THREE opportunities to evade. It's important to look at why a skill isn't used - it's the difference between putting a stack of Aeigis on impact strike, OR a stack of stability, or frontal block, or unblockable. They are all buffs, but have vastly different impacts (HEH) on how they would boost the elite skill up. Also, a powerful elite skill is vital to a complete, well rounded class - look at how MUCH Rampage contributes to warrior's threat presence in a fight, for example.

    Some things are so good that you can't NOT use them - the trait system limiting choices
    The best example of this is, imo, Trickery and thieves. How long have thieves been pidgeonholed into using trickery, leaving them only two other traitlines to switch about? Classes should have...how to say, functional mechanics on their own, with traitline choices serving to bolster, change, decrease, etc those mechanics in interesting combinations. Thief, to a certain extent, doesn't really function without Trickery - except if you want to run a permastealth, meme 1-shot build...which, I think, says a lot about the role Trickery has played in thief pvp builds and the state of thief balance. Mind you, this also applies to skills - for example, what is thief without shortbow#5?

    On the other hand, this also applies to CLEANSE. What do I do if I want more cleanse? In most games, I can sacrifice x for y, and x is proportionate to y. I want more damage, I have to give up a certain amount of damage mitigation - be it health, armor, etc. In GW2, if I want to fare better against conditions, that is...not the case. What options do I have to switch around? Some traitlines just...don't really have accessable cleanse in them. The cleanse either just plain ol ISN'T THERE (which means I would have to change the entire trait line, which means opportunity cost, also see - trickery, which essentially CAN'T be changed), OR it competes with something it isn't equal with such as a GM trait important to my build. A good example of this is warrior's Defense line - they COULD get more cleanse by taking that GM trait at the end that...I think cleanses when you hit a burst skill? But they can't because it not only competes with the other GM traits and just doesn't provide ENOUGH, but also has a landing a hit requirement and requires the warr give up tactics, disc, whatever else they have in there. There is nothing I can give up to get cleanse that is worth what I gave up for it. I'm not even talking about...condi OP or whatever - the option ITSELF just isn't there.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @viquing.8254

    I'm not arguing balance anymore. I posted my suggestions. If you disagree with them that's fine.

    As I said in last discussion post I will not let pass any no stat based or random whine anymore whatever it came from, particulary when it's based on pre-nerf years data.
    But just ignore my answer if you like it.

    About above chrono discussion :
    Give chrono illusions more health = differenciate from core/mirage + illusion don't get instant killed.

  • sinject.4607sinject.4607 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    As a deadeye player this is my perspective:

    Condi mirage is the most overpowered build in the game by far. The core design of multi-casting in mesmer (weapon/utils/shatters/clones) allows for a certain persistent offensive pressure that just works too well with condition damage; this is the same reason people complain about condition thief despite this only being true to a lesser extent with daredevil. This offensive pressure combined with the amount of defensive uptime condition mirage can manage essentially leaves it with no vulnerability windows and no major weaknesses.

    • You can't kite them well if at all because of their mobility in addition to bodyblocking from clones and reflects.
    • You can't offensively pressure them via melee because most of their damage mitigation doesn't occupy their casting queue, leaving them free to weapon attack and use utilities to punish you.
    • You can't reliably CC them because of access to stability/stunbreaks/mirage cloak evade and because MOST OF THEIR INVULN ANIMATIONS DONT PROPERLY RENDER. ESPECIALLY OUT OF STEALTH. This seems to be partly caused when they clone spam as the rendering engine just seemingly gives up with the sudden visual clutter.
    • You can't really avoid their damage because the core design of condition damage/application when combined with the multi-cast pressure of mirage means that evading even their condi burst you will probably lose half your health from passive clone application followed by autoattacks and AoE. Another issue being the efficacy of AI casters- clones are way too fast and way too persistently perfect in their attacks and I think if anything this speaks to overtly easy design of condition damage as I've never had issue with power mesmer/chrono/mirage clones.

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Mirage: The ability to perform any action while dodging is at first not spooktacular until you realise that it allows you to always avoid damage while performing a crucial action or while casting. This essentially lets you bypass balancing by cast time as your defence is always available to use while remaining unpunished for using an ability and while others may have to cancel to avoid damage you don't. Additionally many of the ambush skills are over loaded in effects or conditions and I believe that torment and confusion should never be allowed to be applied in any substantial measure at the same time as the counter play is to stand there and do nothing if hit.


    On Thief: I want to really stress how wrong a lot of people are about thief in general.

    • Condition daredevil might be annoying but that's all it is in my opinion. Unlike the aforementioned condition mirage, condition daredevil doesn't really have much in the way of sustain and relies too heavily on one or two attacks that can be avoided (steal/infiltrator's strike) leading them to be predictable and easy to manage. Every time thief has gotten a viable condition build it quickly gets nerfed because everyone bemoans the simplicity and ease despite this being chiefly an issue with the core design of condition damage itself... I don't play condition at all, but my main issue is that nerfing condition thief will almost certainly end up nerfing power S/D builds for the billionth time and power S/D is already pretty bad.
    • I didn't even really know about staff thief until this thread. People have been trying to make a viable bunker thief build since the dawn of time. It never works because thief just can't chain together mitigation by design, unlike firebrand/scrapper/druid/etc. Apparently it's popular in automated tournaments. I've only ever faced this build in ranked once, but anybody with a slight clue to the vulnerability frames on thief evades should be able to handle this build. Please do not nerf power staff builds as they are already largely irrelevant and you will be relegating them to further irrelevance.
    • Oneshot/stealth thief builds are extraordinarily gimmicky. They are absolutely sitting ducks 90% of the time. If anything needs to be changed its the stealth uptime shadow arts allows deadeye because that alone allows for these builds to exist.
  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    all classes - don't let them stack 25 might with ease or insane levels of + damage modifiers.
    turrets, spirits, minions, and elementals are all horribly outdated. I suggest going the spirit weapon route (strong actives).

    war - rampage coefficients too high, put immob back on sword burst flaming flurry (remove projectiles, they fail at range anyway), update offhand sword and longbow
    rev - mostly good, power + condi burst still kinda ridiculous, renegade needs buffs (make summons invuln), reduce rev shield energy/ cd costs and give shield 4 more prot, make rev tablet instant travel (horrible feeling trying to heal people but they just walk out of where you thought they were going to be), salvation needs regen again
    guard - buff shattered aegis, make spirit shield apply weakness immediately, reduce dh f3 cd, reduce shelter cd, add new functionality to true shot, longbow auto kinda wonky
    rang - reduce druid cd back to 10 and nerf druidic clarity, put resist and prot on ca 5, buff invigorating bond, buff soulbeast dagger
    eng - nerf quickness and vigor uptime of holo, reduce heal turret sustain by a bit, add some cd to holo leap and remove swiftness, buff flamethrower power damage and all kits really
    teef - remove cripple from skirmishers shot and move it to spotters (remove immob, nerf cripple duration too cuz high damage range with infinite kite is a huge problem), remove panic strike poison on immob, buff power d/d, make pistol whip evade immediately like it was in the past but replace stun with daze
    mes - add an actual cd to pain mantra and remove might, flow of time current function plus illusions gain 2 sec of distortion when they are created, illusionary reversion whenever you create a clone create one more, buff distortion duration on continuum split to 2 sec per clone and make the thing on the ground invuln
    ele - ah man they need an overhaul, give some weapons sustain without investing in heal power, ah f it make the conjures into kits, let weaver have access to their 3rd skill again by making the original 3rd skill in front and the dual attack a flip over skill on bottom
    nec - core shroud reduce life blast cast time, make unholy sanctuary a 1 sec invuln when entering shroud, give all necro weapons a lot of life force on their auto attacks, remove some cripple from scourge, should prob just remove shade range ability completely since it would make the whole thing less clunky

    Te lazla otstara.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @sinject.4607 said:
    As a deadeye player this is my perspective:
    Condi mirage is the most overpowered build in the game by far. The core design of multi-casting in mesmer (weapon/utils/shatters/clones) allows for a certain persistent offensive pressure that just works too well with condition damage; this is the same reason people complain about condition thief despite this only being true to a lesser extent with daredevil. This offensive pressure combined with the amount of defensive uptime condition mirage can manage essentially leaves it with no vulnerability windows and no major weaknesses.

    • You can't kite them well if at all because of their mobility in addition to bodyblocking from clones and reflects.
    • You can't offensively pressure them via melee because most of their damage mitigation doesn't occupy their casting queue, leaving them free to weapon attack and use utilities to punish you.
    • You can't reliably CC them because of access to stability/stunbreaks/mirage cloak evade and because MOST OF THEIR INVULN ANIMATIONS DONT PROPERLY RENDER. ESPECIALLY OUT OF STEALTH. This seems to be partly caused when they clone spam as the rendering engine just seemingly gives up with the sudden visual clutter.
    • You can't really avoid their damage because the core design of condition damage/application when combined with the multi-cast pressure of mirage means that evading even their condi burst you will probably lose half your health from passive clone application followed by autoattacks and AoE. Another issue being the efficacy of AI casters- clones are way too fast and way too persistently perfect in their attacks and I think if anything this speaks to overtly easy design of condition damage as I've never had issue with power mesmer/chrono/mirage clones.

    Sadly this is not what streams show.
    Isn't just that your build is hardcountered ? I can see some melee deadeye builds who can manage well against mirage.
    I mean I don't post an op post everytime a thief kill me on power mesmer/mirage while it hardcounter it since release.
    About the "CC imune" : just count the 2 evade then CC burst if I can win on a powermirage versus condimirage it's because condimirage have a really slow setup before damage start to hurt and very visible animations on ambush.
    It's good in a game to have strength and weakness over differents situations.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    I think this is mostly covered, but the issues have much to do with the game systems versus class balance. All of the following need rework (mostly reduction):

    1. Boon generation.
    2. Boon RIP.
    3. HP pools.
    4. AOE CC.
    5. Condi damage (this for most classes needs a buff not a nerf).
    6. Unblockable damage.

    Most of these require major redesign (even for PvE).

    Then build diversity. I will talk mainly about my main, guardian. About a year ago, guardian had 7-8 sPvP viable builds with viability between S grade and B grade. Now, there are only two builds, FB support and Sage FB. Everything else is mediocre or trash. This has been a trend all across for the last 12-15 month. Sure, the balance between top tier builds is much better now than a year ago. We also have less brazenly out performing builds. But overall, we have less builds across the board.

  • Elxdark.9702Elxdark.9702 Member ✭✭✭

    good guy cmc, I'm always harsh against anet when it comes to pvp but this is a good start, hopefully this isn't the only time you do this, I'm sure everybody would appreciate these threads for every balance patch so you guys get a word of what's getting out of balance and unhealthy for the game.

    builds/specs that need to be toned down for pvp

    • holo (damage wise, boon duration)
    • condi thief (unhealthy gameplay, literally everybody can play this and do well)
    • staff thief (unhealthy gameplay, too much spam, low risk high reward)
    • firebrand (too much heal and boons, makes other support specs unviable)
    • mirage (rework the dodge)

    builds/specs that need to be improved for pvp

    • Druid (make ca 10 seconds cd again, remove stealth from celestial shadow)
    • Soulbeast (rework pet's abilities in beastmode there are like 4 pets that are worth to use in this mode, the rest are useless, buff dagger main hand a lot, nerf boon duration)
    • Tempest (doesn't need any buffs, just nerf firebrand boon application)
    • Daredevil/thief (revert all dagger nerfs, give swipe 900 range or give it new stolen abilities, swap havoc specialist with escapist's fortitude, put icd on weakening strikes
      remove all the vigor from Acrobatics line, replace it with something more creative than a static boon)

    General changes:

    • tone down boon duration by a lot in these boons - quickness, protection, might and vigor these should only give you a boost in your dps rotation for a few seconds not minutes.
    • rework amulet stats, demolisher has to go.

    i haven't played the game in a while but that would be from what I've seen lately.

    Trash NA thief HITZER
    twitch

  • Gogdarth.6741Gogdarth.6741 Member ✭✭✭

    To add to my previous post, I'd also humbly request a visit to class forum sections. Many players have interesting ideas and suggestions and generally treat their own classes with less "lul remove bcuz i die to it" mentality. It already caused a lot of damage across multiple specs and builds, making them either not viable at all or plain unworkable/bad - a little more insightful feedback from those who dumped ungodly hours into the classes in question should potentially be more valuable, imo.

    Nobody really wants their class to be fundamentally broken to a point where people hate you for playing it, unsurprisingly (yet a revelation for every mesmer complainer who treats counter-argumentation to their misinformed suggestions as a personal attack, it'd seem) enough. Yes, I did a bit of a sassy callout there. Cuz I play a class with pink butterflies, what do you expect?

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hey Cal,

    This all sounds too good to be true, I do hope it all works out though. I really want the game to have some sense of a balance again. With that being said I'll give my perspective:

    • Alpha striking from stealth needs to go. There is no counter play to it, other than "guessing" which is different than reacting to animations.
    • Warriors elite skill rampage is way too strong, it needs to be tuned down.
    • FB support is still too good. It completely over shadows any potential support specs from other classes.
    • Boons are too abundant, its easy for a single player to gain and sustain 25 stacks of might on their own. It inflates damage by a ton.
    • There needs to be a focus on classes base strength without boons, boons should be a temporary enhancement. Currently, each character relies on them heavily.
    • Mirage is too much, excessive screen clutter, countless clones, evades, dodge, blocks and over all mitigation is too persistent. Its also one of the only classes were the player has to mouse target because cycling through all the clones is a nightmare.
    • Condi thief needs to be reworked. The problem is evade on skills is just way too strong. I've said it since the game launched but in their current form they don't have many abilities to really counter them. If they were either changed to be considered blocks it would be a change for the better since there are unblockable skills in game. Or if you guys increased the vulnerability window/recovery animation so they can actually be hit. With latency, how fast thief evade skills recover and the average casting time for skills, you will never be able to hit them.
    • The amount of time a class can reset a fight needs to be limited. It promotes bad game play. If someone makes a mistake they should not be able to constantly reset the fight to try again. They need to be punished, its that simple. Holo comes to mind.
    • Health tiers should be unique to specializations. It would make more sense than all of them sharing the same health tier.
    • Damage and defense both need to be toned down and a build shouldn't be able to have access to high damage, high defense and healing at once. If you are high damage you should have low defense and support. If you have high defense you should have low damage and healing etc.
  • @viquing.8254 said:

    @sinject.4607 said:
    As a deadeye player this is my perspective:
    Condi mirage is the most overpowered build in the game by far. The core design of multi-casting in mesmer (weapon/utils/shatters/clones) allows for a certain persistent offensive pressure that just works too well with condition damage; this is the same reason people complain about condition thief despite this only being true to a lesser extent with daredevil. This offensive pressure combined with the amount of defensive uptime condition mirage can manage essentially leaves it with no vulnerability windows and no major weaknesses.

    • You can't kite them well if at all because of their mobility in addition to bodyblocking from clones and reflects.
    • You can't offensively pressure them via melee because most of their damage mitigation doesn't occupy their casting queue, leaving them free to weapon attack and use utilities to punish you.
    • You can't reliably CC them because of access to stability/stunbreaks/mirage cloak evade and because MOST OF THEIR INVULN ANIMATIONS DONT PROPERLY RENDER. ESPECIALLY OUT OF STEALTH. This seems to be partly caused when they clone spam as the rendering engine just seemingly gives up with the sudden visual clutter.
    • You can't really avoid their damage because the core design of condition damage/application when combined with the multi-cast pressure of mirage means that evading even their condi burst you will probably lose half your health from passive clone application followed by autoattacks and AoE. Another issue being the efficacy of AI casters- clones are way too fast and way too persistently perfect in their attacks and I think if anything this speaks to overtly easy design of condition damage as I've never had issue with power mesmer/chrono/mirage clones.

    Sadly this is not what streams show.
    Isn't just that your build is hardcountered ? I can see some melee deadeye builds who can manage well against mirage.
    I mean I don't post an op post everytime a thief kill me on power mesmer/mirage while it hardcounter it since release.
    About the "CC imune" : just count the 2 evade then CC burst if I can win on a powermirage versus condimirage it's because condimirage have a really slow setup before damage start to hurt and very visible animations on ambush.
    It's good in a game to have strength and weakness over differents situations.

    Nope. The only posts here defending mirage are from mesmer players such as yourself, while all three pages have a variety of players mentioning condition mirage as broken and even the Devs themselves have echoed some of my thoughts on the build here in this thread.

  • Boon corruption and weakness output on core necro it's a bit too much right now, however the issue is that it depends on that to apply decent pressure, otherwise it would be completely useless. Since it obvious that boon application/duration is going to be toned down, revise boon corruption on core necro wisely. You guys will need to give Death Shroud a better autoattack and a more reliable skill 4 to compensate for the obvious nerf to boon corruption.

    I'm not going to ask for to revert on the Scourge last changes, I would like to see how the boon changes will affect scourge first.

    CHEEKYLA

  • azza.1906azza.1906 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    Just wanna get my chrono back tbh. And while we are at it make blinding powder instant cast again.
    Rework daggerstorm/rampage/IH/staff and condi drd/holo sustain and quickness uptime.
    Rework passive traits like you did with engi.
    Rework amulets. berserker/mender amulet.
    And bring in some diversity in the gamemode/ switch up the meta completely.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta? Then think about the big picture: What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed?

    Hey there and Thank you for the Update.

    I have to ask, are the sentences in bold ment as questions for the players or an example of what is the Team going to ask themselves when balancing/spliting?

    Also, you say it should be focused mainly on splits, does it mean we should not expect changes to functionality of skills, but instead simple number tweaks?

    Would for example, caping might stacks at 10 be considered a split or somewhat complicated change that is for now off the board?

    For this post, these questions are for the players as discussion topics. They are also things that the team is discussing internally as we look toward these balance updates.

    I want you all to focus on splits because those are the changes we can do with no impact on the rest of the game. If a split makes sense for PvP or WvW, we can just do it. Functionality changes require larger discussions about the impact on the whole game. We are starting discussions internally about things that are not addressable with numbers changes, because there are things that need a functional change but need to change for the sake of competitive modes.

    Game mode-specific boon caps is something that we have talked about, but there are other ways that we can solve some of these problems. For the example of might, I'd want to look at the sources and durations of might applications. 25 might isn't necessarily a problem if it requires significant investment from multiple team members, but a single player self-stacking 25 might is something that probably shouldn't happen. There's also the possibility of splitting the effectiveness on a game mode basis.

    im glad ur back at arenanet (:

    but yea delete condi thief

    Very near future release note:

    • Deadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison has been decreased from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
      We're not sure it's enough but hopefully a good start.

    Why nerf core traits of Condi Thief when the issue is S/D Condi Thief and the type of playstyle it generates? D/D and P/D Condi Thief are NOT overperforming AT ALL and yet a change like this is also a nerf to those underperforming versions of the build with no compensation for those versions of condi thief.

  • Gogdarth.6741Gogdarth.6741 Member ✭✭✭

    @sinject.4607 said:
    Nope. The only posts here defending mirage are from mesmer players such as yourself, while all three pages have a variety of players mentioning condition mirage as broken and even the Devs themselves have echoed some of my thoughts on the build here in this thread.

    Problem with this is that it's a knee-jerk reaction, and most of this feedback about "overtuned" doesn't come from a place of understanding WHY it happens. Every mesmer jumps to defend Mirage because two reasons - it's all we have left PvP-wise, and all of those suggestions and horridly misinformed. No, in fact, we don't really have infinite dodges. Warrior has more, hilariously enough. So is every Thief ever. Even Holo.

    Meanwhile, "remove evasive mirror because it doesn't allow rangers/deadeyes to do much". Should they not have hard-counters while using a low risk/high reward ranged playstyle? This trait was that. Gone now, quite literally. And both of them have weapon swap too, so it's not like they shouldn't/couldn't have used their melee options. Yet, the kneejerk killed the trait, but problem is that it's a core trait. It made** all **mesmer builds worse with this loss. So did Blinding Dissipation, because now having blind every 25-ish seconds is worthless. "Mirage has too much", so they nerf Bountiful Disillusionment - another core trait.

    A reminder: There's now not a single grandmaster in Chaos traitline that isn't nerfed into half or more of it's previous effectiveness. Neither of them feel nor perform influentially whatsoever, and people will use Chaos purely because staff trait still gives protection and minors are decent, at least. And maybe chaos storm on heal, but honestly - many opt to live without it, going for Master of Manipulations instead, for it's not that reliable due to having a super weird invisible casttime (seems to trigger after lengthy aftercasts, which all of our heals actually have, lol).

    There are a lot of other changes like that, too. For example, I used to run a build relying on Blurred Inscriptions (yeah don't judge), back when it was in Domination. And surprisingly enough, it made sense to be there - most of the signets are, in fact, not support-oriented at all, with the weird exception of Inspiration one (hoo boy, this button). They're all about making you do more damage or controlling (in other words, dominating) the enemy through stuns, or perception tricks (see Midnight). Yet for the raid crowd, trait was moved to Inspiration, making it unusable in PvP and killing my build off. Bit of a personal example, but what it illustrates is that: When you do a change on a mesmer, you're sticking your fingers into a very intricate web of co-dependencies. Nerfing one trait hits everything else which could've benefit from it.

    Mirage is nigh-unplayable without Deceptive Evasion, which is why it ran and runs Dueling, which is why it also used whatever defensive utility it could provide. Initially we didn't even use pistols or relied on Deadshot, it was Carrion or Sage with axe/torch. (Which was a lot more fun than scepter/pistol, in my biased opinion) - but overnerfing due to not knowing what exactly to change is what brought us to this sad build which people still call overtuned, but in reality it's just "works while nothing else really does".
    Mirage uses Chaos because it's on-dodge traits that give it small durations of Regen and even smaller dash of Protection (literally 1.5 seconds) is in nice synergy with Chaos minors, plus it elevated staff from "directionless weapon which doesn't know what it's doing" to "defensive tool with condition pressure". The other options Chaos provided were secondary, but nice - having stab gave it a different feel from other mesmer specs, but now it's 1 second of it. Might as well not be there at all, in other words.
    Mirage is exceptionally bad without Infinite Horizon, and it only works because it literally has the potential to multiply your condition damage of ambushes** by four**. If anything, it just goes to show that it's base offense is kind of pathetic at this point, if it needs a literal efficiency multiplier to really do anything worthwhile. The "clones dodge too" thing is neat, and is a small way of retaining your shatter/ambush fodder amidst, well, everything, but ultimately it's something we can live without.

    As of now, it's like Jenga after 2 hours of intense playing. We're being against it not because "class bias" - we kinda don't like Mirage too, in general, because it's just an upgrade over Core with an IH gimmick, while not really feeling all that new or exciting. This "dodge while CC'd" thing people keep bringing up is neither new to us, nor that gamechanging. Absolutely everything has some other CC to follow up anyway, but I won't be mad about Mirage being unable to dodge when CC'd without EM as GM trait. That's fair. But don't go about claiming that we deal some incredible super-duper damage while totally invulnerable at all times, because it's simply not the case. Individually, our skills tend to do very little. It's always about a sum of it's parts. Deceptive Evasion + IH wombo-combo is what you're against, not "little distortions which, as a concept, isn't even that new to a class or never happened before or that overpowered".

    Core issue is IH, of course. While I have few ideas on how to rework it in a fun way while keeping Mirage playable, I think such a discussion is best suited for Mesmer forums, as it's more of a "all gamemodes/general mechanics" thing rather than strictly PvP-oriented number juggling.

    But, I'll use the chance to highlight some issues mesmer faces here, to maybe ward off uncalled for decisions. Our class is in a dire state for these gamemodes, despite this one build still making people salty because this one trait makes us playable by doing a literal "x4".

    Also, to those who say "mantras r bad", I'll just say this - We'll still 100-0 you even without MoP. It's not that integral to burst rotation. You die to us stacking +damage traits and sigils/runes into Mind Wrack while our Prestige hopefully blasts off and Mirror Blade bounces between us for a hot little tango. If you want to remove that, change functionality of +damage traits so they still offer DPS increases, but not burst increases.

  • Rap Tiger.1257Rap Tiger.1257 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    As someone who has been playing PVP for a long time with ranger, an example that I think you guys should be aware of is trait related, I never understood why beastmaster has traits that benefit the player, whereas the correct one was more to benefit pets while There are traits that have some benefits for pets when it was meant to be just for the player.

    Another thing is about amulets, I think they are very limited, it would be nice if we had points to select how much strength, accuracy and so on.

    Finally balance so that there is more than one option for each class to choose whether to play either power, condition, bunker or healing.But having the balance so that one is not superior to the other, for example, healing or bunker becomes invincible so that it can not die even taking large amount of damage.

  • Dont remove necro boon corrupt potential, its the only thing it has, at least as off right now, also make Reaper a REAL brawler in terms of survivability (Seriouly compare it to the others, Spell Breaker, Weaver and Holo) even if you have to tone down the damage.

  • Ralkuth.1456Ralkuth.1456 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loki.1763 said:
    The one thing I would ask for is to stop dropping balance patch mid season.

    A Plat1 Scourge I used to see a lot of completely gave up on S18 when the patch hit toward the final 2 weeks of the season. It’s absolutely inexplicable that they did this before as well.

    Serf of the Arena NA

  • Long time pvper here.

    1. Id like precision to take a bigger part in condition builds' damage
    2. I think invulns/ evades/ blocks should lower self movement speed or be immobile in general while skills that reduce damage taken actively stay not affecting movement speed.
    3. Some way for slow power weapon builds without precision to be viable through attrition (maybe power scaled debuffs like pulmonary impact?) for weapons like warrior mace, hammer, necro greatsword/dagger.
    4. Less passive easy might stacks like rev/warrior/holo passive, i prefer combo field blasting being a better might builder since it can be interrupted/mitigated. Maybe even keep might as a pve/teamfight viable thing but not so crazy free in solo pvp.
    5. Builds with lots of mobility/evades should not have access to weakness
    6. High power damage potential needs practical mitigation or predictable visible ques (i.e. reaper high damage but lacks evade/block/invuln so can be damage pressured to mitigate their damage, but on the other hand mirage can evade and big damage burst on a moving target simultaneously lacks damage mitigation counterplay same as old d/p bound daredevil as well as evade condi thief please avoid concept builds like these)

    As for what kind of meta i would like,
    I think the specs with the most predictable/visible animations for their damage should have the most skill potential/viability. In the current meta i like how both condi and power is viable with more power builds than condi being viable. I also like how anything that tries to be full bunker is still solo killable by many builds in the meta.

  • Also many skills feel unbalanced due to bugs, I suggest seriously looking at some of the hitboxes and pathing on many skills such as,
    Guardians thrown torch skill
    Jumping bulls charge
    Earthshakers inability to hit people downhill
    jumping while using DD staff 3
    strafing slow moving projectiles causing them to obstruct/out of range/miss
    and many more...

    some will make certain class mechanics feel weaker or stronger and may prompt future balancing.

    Full Counter is supposed to counter everything, why else is it called FULL Counter... Just like 100 blades should really hit 100 times so you instantly die to retaliation.

  • ParadoX.3124ParadoX.3124 Member ✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:
    I think there is (still) a disparity between Elite Specs, and things that have been buffed to Elite Spec levels vs the original Core Specs, and things that are balanced at a Core Spec level.

    Eg. things playing at Elite Spec levels of balance:

    • Holosmith
    • Firebrand

    Eg. Things playing at Core Spec levels of balance:

    • Core Necro (both condi and power)
    • Core Engineer (both condi and power)

    I can only relay my experience trying to play condi engi and get my damaging conditions to stick. I land my skills, but they are always cleansed much faster than I can apply them because the cleanse in the game seems to be tuned for builds that apply many many more conditions + corruptions (scourge, thief/dd, mirage etc). Where does that leave me with my 12s cooldown blowtorch and a few cover conditions to frantically try and get on top of it?

    It just seems like a lot of builds didn't keep pace with the power creep that came with the elite specs.

    Personally, I'd prefer if everything was nerfed down to ~2015 levels of balance. However, if that's not going to happen, I'd prefer if the older specs (mostly core specs) were brought up to par with the power creep in a way that doesn't make the current OP specs even worse. I get that that is challenging when elite specs can pick and choose from core as they wish.

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    • How Conditions Work
      I believe that Conditions should be a Damage over Time effect. And by DOT, i mean that it shouldnt kill anyone as fast as power damage. Condi builds playstyle should be to slowly grind the target HP while being tanky/slippery... Not blinking in your face and dealing like 2k+ burn ticks in an instant

    I agree with you but there are a few things to consider:

    Currently, condi builds don't really have more survivability than power builds thanks to tanky amulets being removed. The ones that do have more survivability (mirage, thief) get it from gimmicky mechanics rather than any innate

    >

    What are you talking about ? Condi thief can just spam all condis in the world, back with 2 sword or teleport, stealth, come back, apply condis. Same go with mesmers.
    Rev condi also have much survivability

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    this is nice ! and we welcome all the balance changes and the wish to fix things ! game is really unbalanced right now ! but this is something important for me to ask! what about PVE balance? i;ve seen post about WvW balance and PVP balance but the PVE really do need balance aswell.
    right now theres an awful state of the game that there are hanful of classes that are meta and the rest not worth runing for pve.
    and as much as i understand the pvp balance and wvw balance are critical cause people are competetive there the pve got some aspect of competetive in the raids and fractals and the balance there is not less important or broken.

  • mindweller.5978mindweller.5978 Member
    edited October 24, 2019

    Hello, as long-term thief playing from shadow since release and never posting on forums I would like to use this opportunity to raise a point about STAFF thief.

    Staff thief, deadly arts + trickery + daredevil build utilizing traits such as (but not strictly) bound, improvisation and trickster and marauder stats with rune of daredevil (but not strictly) used to provide an awesome and truly viable deviation from the normal thief play style (while still staying true to the profession core concepts). Utilizing a build such as this would allow a thief to fill very much a more BRUISER type of role instead of a standard ROAMER.

    It was powerful, it was fun, it was counter-able.

    This type of thief build / play style was in the spotlight for a very short time during very early season 2 and 3 of pvp and never truly took it's place in mainstream player consciousness as one of the prime thief builds.

    Myself, playing that build and achieving great results on the Ranked leader boards for shorter or longer time frames, can attest to this builds extended viability throughout a much longer period of time than those couple of seasons when it was fresh and new and still not hit with indirect nerfs such as:

    • Revamping the staff 5 animation (it suddenly became really clunky, which was later corrected)
    • Prohibiting Steal during staff 5 animation
    • Nerfing the range of Steal for daredevil

    Of course, it was not just these nerfs that sidelined this type of play style but also the ever changing meta and balance of the game.

    BUT this part of the great thief profession truly never left the player consciousness and is getting lesser scale revivals to this day which can be witnessed in recent emerging popularity of staff WvW thief build (using acro) and the freshest Bunker thief double staff build rising to the top of metabattle lists.

    Still, I see the current staff thief builds as a shade of what was, so WHAT I WOULD LIKE IS:

    • For Anet team to see how they can expand on thief's potential bruiser role with Staff as the central weapon of such builds.
    • Care not to indirectly nerf existing and functional thief builds (like staff thief was) when balancing the Daredevil trait line.
    • Make the staff weapon the prime weapon for the Daredevil trait line (but not exclusive at all) and again... expand on this part of the thief profession which truly can elevate it out of the presumed roles.

    - In other words, let's not ignore it! The potential is great to develop a huge new side of the thief profession that can take it's place among the Deadeyes, the D/Ps and S/Ds and condis, albeit having it's very own role and spot :)

    P.S. I know nothing is truly simple and I am giving input just on one specific part of the machine and am far from knowing Anets plans and what future elite specs could bring or not bring and what new roles will they expand on for each class.. I mean who knows... But still I think this is valuable input for a small part that was just, or seemed to be at least, ignored.

    Great appreciation for the whole of Anet team, and thanks for everything you've provided us with over the years!

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    Problem with this is that it's a knee-jerk reaction, and most of this feedback about "overtuned" doesn't come from a place of understanding WHY it happens. Every mesmer jumps to defend Mirage because two reasons - it's all we have left PvP-wise, and all of those suggestions and horridly misinformed. No, in fact, we don't really have infinite dodges. Warrior has more, hilariously enough. So is every Thief ever. Even Holo.

    Meanwhile, "remove evasive mirror because it doesn't allow rangers/deadeyes to do much". Should they not have hard-counters while using a low risk/high reward ranged playstyle? This trait was that. Gone now, quite literally. And both of them have weapon swap too, so it's not like they shouldn't/couldn't have used their melee options. Yet, the kneejerk killed the trait, but problem is that it's a core trait. It made** all **mesmer builds worse with this loss. So did Blinding Dissipation, because now having blind every 25-ish seconds is worthless. "Mirage has too much", so they nerf Bountiful Disillusionment - another core trait.

    A reminder: There's now not a single grandmaster in Chaos traitline that isn't nerfed into half or more of it's previous effectiveness. Neither of them feel nor perform influentially whatsoever, and people will use Chaos purely because staff trait still gives protection and minors are decent, at least. And maybe chaos storm on heal, but honestly - many opt to live without it, going for Master of Manipulations instead, for it's not that reliable due to having a super weird invisible casttime (seems to trigger after lengthy aftercasts, which all of our heals actually have, lol).

    There are a lot of other changes like that, too. For example, I used to run a build relying on Blurred Inscriptions (yeah don't judge), back when it was in Domination. And surprisingly enough, it made sense to be there - most of the signets are, in fact, not support-oriented at all, with the weird exception of Inspiration one (hoo boy, this button). They're all about making you do more damage or controlling (in other words, dominating) the enemy through stuns, or perception tricks (see Midnight). Yet for the raid crowd, trait was moved to Inspiration, making it unusable in PvP and killing my build off. Bit of a personal example, but what it illustrates is that: When you do a change on a mesmer, you're sticking your fingers into a very intricate web of co-dependencies. Nerfing one trait hits everything else which could've benefit from it.

    Mirage is nigh-unplayable without Deceptive Evasion, which is why it ran and runs Dueling, which is why it also used whatever defensive utility it could provide. Initially we didn't even use pistols or relied on Deadshot, it was Carrion or Sage with axe/torch. (Which was a lot more fun than scepter/pistol, in my biased opinion) - but overnerfing due to not knowing what exactly to change is what brought us to this sad build which people still call overtuned, but in reality it's just "works while nothing else really does".
    Mirage uses Chaos because it's on-dodge traits that give it small durations of Regen and even smaller dash of Protection (literally 1.5 seconds) is in nice synergy with Chaos minors, plus it elevated staff from "directionless weapon which doesn't know what it's doing" to "defensive tool with condition pressure". The other options Chaos provided were secondary, but nice - having stab gave it a different feel from other mesmer specs, but now it's 1 second of it. Might as well not be there at all, in other words.
    Mirage is exceptionally bad without Infinite Horizon, and it only works because it literally has the potential to multiply your condition damage of ambushes** by four**. If anything, it just goes to show that it's base offense is kind of pathetic at this point, if it needs a literal efficiency multiplier to really do anything worthwhile. The "clones dodge too" thing is neat, and is a small way of retaining your shatter/ambush fodder amidst, well, everything, but ultimately it's something we can live without.

    As of now, it's like Jenga after 2 hours of intense playing. We're being against it not because "class bias" - we kinda don't like Mirage too, in general, because it's just an upgrade over Core with an IH gimmick, while not really feeling all that new or exciting. This "dodge while CC'd" thing people keep bringing up is neither new to us, nor that gamechanging. Absolutely everything has some other CC to follow up anyway, but I won't be mad about Mirage being unable to dodge when CC'd without EM as GM trait. That's fair. But don't go about claiming that we deal some incredible super-duper damage while totally invulnerable at all times, because it's simply not the case. Individually, our skills tend to do very little. It's always about a sum of it's parts. Deceptive Evasion + IH wombo-combo is what you're against, not "little distortions which, as a concept, isn't even that new to a class or never happened before or that overpowered".

    Core issue is IH, of course. While I have few ideas on how to rework it in a fun way while keeping Mirage playable, I think such a discussion is best suited for Mesmer forums, as it's more of a "all gamemodes/general mechanics" thing rather than strictly PvP-oriented number juggling.

    But, I'll use the chance to highlight some issues mesmer faces here, to maybe ward off uncalled for decisions. Our class is in a dire state for these gamemodes, despite this one build still making people salty because this one trait makes us playable by doing a literal "x4".

    Also, to those who say "mantras r bad", I'll just say this - We'll still 100-0 you even without MoP. It's not that integral to burst rotation. You die to us stacking +damage traits and sigils/runes into Mind Wrack while our Prestige hopefully blasts off and Mirror Blade bounces between us for a hot little tango. If you want to remove that, change functionality of +damage traits so they still offer DPS increases, but not burst increases.

    Well written, you get it. I like that analogy to Jenga - in a nutshell that is pretty much how it is right now.

    A side note regarding reflect - there should be zero complaining about reflects after the have been largely deleted a few patches ago. Random unpredictable 2s on evade with 10s ICD (laughably bad rng and still passive - ie brainless, but now it's a complete afterthought) and only 2s on mirror heal since master of manipulation got changed to superspeed...

    My ears, how are you! | Hammer Mesmer - elite spec concept.

  • Wanze.8410Wanze.8410 Member ✭✭✭

    We have identified the overall power of the game has become an issue and we wish to address this in the competitive game modes.

    I am not a pvp player but sometimes, if stuff gets complicated, it takes a simple approach from someone who doesnt overcomplicate things to find an easy solution.

    It seems all the new elite specs and resulting builds and party combos have led to a power creep. Instead of micromanaging nerfing all of it again individually, how about just raising base vitality toughness of all classes in pvp and see where this gets us.

    And even though i dont play pvp (never really have in 7 years and 14k hours), I am still a competitive player, as I enjoy wvw (rank 3.5k). In wvw I often felt that some balance changes that were designed to adress balance in instanced pve or pvp had a negative impact on wvw balance, so I appreciate your approach of splitting skill balance more between those 3 game modes.

    I also dont play pvp because I think its unbalanced in general. The biggest problem pvp seems to have from an outsiders point of view seems to be all the bots, hacking/afkers that seem to be all present in that game mode. So it doesnt matter to me, how balanced classes/skills will be in the future, I wouldnt consider trying pvp again before I dont think that the problem of hackers/bots/afkers is taken care of first.

  • Specs that in my feeling needs some nerfing or tweak in power:

    • Fire Weaver - It is hard to learn spec, cannot deny that. But when you got the muscle memory right, it can evade 3/4 of time. Remaining 1/4 is spent on burst combos, which are really strong. One good combo can stack like 20 Burns in 2.5 sec. It's sudden, it hurts.
    • Tactic Warrior - Dmg increase on target with barrier is INSANE. Easy might stacking is also quite disturbing.
    • Condi DD Thief - Whilst Weaver evades 3/4 of time, this guy here is evading 90% of time, constantly applying condis in the meantime. Quite impossible to track his dodges and all the evasion skills to look to the window. I agree that dmg is not top notch, but it is simply cancer to play against.
    • DE - It does not seem to be extremely op to me. It is simply very obnoxious to play against. So many stealths, so hard hitting. Fits the sniper fantasy i guess, is it healthy though?
    • Rifle Tools Holo - It feels too oppressive to play against, whilst being really persistent. I see sustain is much built-in the Core Engi and any nerfs to Core Engi will cause havoc to every remaining Engi builds. Therefore, I see it better to nerf some Holo part (and fix the unused traits). Heat therapy seems to be the best thing to nerf. Perhaps make Pristine Light Beam turn stealth off whilst using?
    • Mirage Condi - I do not feel it is op by any means (it is very nerfed tbh). Although, it is annoying. Also, mechanics of Mirage does not seem to compliment shatters, which is kind of a anti-synergy to Mirage's kit itself. I see necessity of big rework/tweaks to how clones are behaving with Mirror Cloak.
    • Soulbeast - For me it feels more overall consistent than Holo. Nice sustain, nice dmg. It has everything. I guess it would be good to align some numbers. Not much work necessary here.
    • Firebrand - Uh ah. Feels too strong. Feels completely broken if more than 1 in the team. I believe some non-stacking mechanic between FBs abilities should be considered.

    Specs that I feel needs some love:

    • Revenant - Energy mechanics should be revised. Pretty much everything costs it, but nothing is recovering. Decision making is good, but in Revenant's case I feel like it is too much.
    • Reaper - a slight numbers alignment.

    In below's topic we agreed that it is very hard to balance specs one by one, because one fixed is influencing whole balance. Therefore, you can plan perfect balance cahnges to current game state. However after you start to implement these on one spec per X weeks, game balance gets disrupted until all planned changes are loaded.
    The best way to fix the balance is to make a huge one-time patch after many tests with good players.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1071716#Comment_1071716

  • mov.1246mov.1246 Member ✭✭

    Just a list of things I dislike in gw2 pvp which evolved even worse with each expansion:

    1. too much passives: Traitlines offering too much passive effects that carries bad players too much and made gameplay less interactive and intuitive.
    2. skills that offers too much: doing damage while evading, doing damage while blocking, or skills that CC+power damage+conditions+self gain boons... some skills are just overloaded with effects, but the worst are doing damage while negating damage.
    3. instant skills: offensive skills with no activation time are just bad, this let the enemy no time to react. defensive abilities like stun breaks wich are instant are ok.
    4. too much boons: perma 25 might, perma fury, perma stab, even near perma quickness are a problem, there are too many skills that offer boons (see no.2) boons should be used tactically at the right time to get the best result and not spamming boons like 24/7
    5. too much conditions: same as no.4, there is also too much condition spam and spike damage for conditions. using the condtion application should be tactical at the right time. But the game seems to develop like "too much conditions? here you have more cleanses". the answer to condition creep is cleasing creep.
    6. too much defensives: evade, evade, block, evade, invuln, block yeah everybody who see this in combat is just frustrated, especially when the ememy is able to deal damage to you while negating all damage. like no.4 and 5 defensives should be used tactically and not spammable.
    7. too much burst damage/one shots: dead in less then 2 sec? seems pretty common these days, when eating crits over 10k and more out of nowhere. this is just frustrating

    I am not crying class X is too strong or too weak, this extreme creep of everything is a problem of every class especially of some elite specs.

  • I appreciate the developers starting a conversation and listening to the community. Before it could seem like shouting in an empty box and this is a welcome change. My thoughts on the current pvp meta will be split in a class by class basis.

    Ele:
    Weaver- Fighting a weaver can be frustrating due to its high re-sustain and evade uptime. While dishing out a lot of damage. However, I feel like nerfing the evade uptime from weaver should come with a buff for either the weavers condipool wich is very low making it practically useless against classes with frequent cleanses or the weavers mobility. A lot of mobility sidenoder can be problematic due to its easily being out rotated and for that reason forced to stay on the point.

    Tempest- I really like that tempest can switch between fire, earth and air. to make aura sharing either heavy on the condi cleanse, high protection uptime or fury. However, With the relatively low healing value and firebrand often being able to do ALL of the above it falls short. I do like the build choices tempest has but I do feel like it should compete. Maybe by increasing the effectiveness of aura's?

    Mesmer:
    mirage- The biggest problem with mirage is that you can't effectively cleave the clones. making it 4 heavy-hitting characters with high evade uptime. My change would be simple: make infinite horizon only cast the ambush skill on clones and don't give them the evade.

    Necromancer:
    Scourge- The shade change made scourges really weak in the current meta. Which is a shame since they did provide a welcome counter to boon spam. While their offensives are hardly touched they have become a very easy target. Shades skills will still spawn on the necro if they don't have any shades on the field so my solution is simple. Give the scourge a skill to destroy their own shades.

    Ranger:
    pets- One of the strongest things in the game is CC and pets having a passive cc that the ranger has no control over ads randomness that can be very frustrating. I feel like pets shouldn't be playmakers without the direction of the ranger. In my opinion, all heavy cc's should be either removed from the pets or cast by the ranger.

    Thief:
    Daredevil- This is the worst outlier in the current meta- with 2 very toxic builds. the change to deadly arts giving thiefs free poison on hits made a place for this horrifying playstyle. The condipool is way too big and the thief is never forced to burst any initiative for damage, making the strongest offensive playstyle of thief also the most defensive and passive. I would remove the free poison on damage and force the thief to do damage in non-evade frames. Staffbunker thief just doesn't die due to nearly infinite dodge frames. Perhaps increase initiative of dodge abilities from staff.

    engineer:
    holosmith: Primelight beam is a very frustrating skill to stop. Either u dodge or you interrupt the engineer. It's fine that it's an unblockable skill. However, tracking is more than unnecessary. I feel like moving behind the engineer should stop you from getting damaged, however, the aggressive tracking won't let you escape. Aside from that the quickness uptime is perhaps too high skills otherwise with very good tells harder to dodge.

    Warrior:
    tactics: mostly fine but the 50% dmg to barriers removes classes from the game. Perhaps make the damage buff a % of the barrier the player has (20% of health = 20%buff) which scales nicely to the 50% @ max barrier. being able to get Oneshot because I have 300 barrier is very unhealthy and removes scourge weaver and scrapper, already weak classes completely from any game with a tactics warrior.

    Rev:
    Renegade-The class can only do damage when it's not being attacked, and since revenant doesn't offer a lot of ways to stay at range. Any aggressed renegade is effectively useless till they die.

    Guard:
    Fine in my opinion.