Please stop reworking elite spec mechanics. No more tradeoffs. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Please stop reworking elite spec mechanics. No more tradeoffs.

Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited October 17, 2019 in Professions

If it is not okay for mirage/tempest/soulbeast to be able to play identically to core when they do not dodge/overload/meld then buff core in ways elite specs cannot take advantage. Or nerf the traits for elite specs. The changes to scourge/chrono/scrapper are very clunky and there is no indication when or if they will ever be fixed. It is better to ensure quality of life.

Comments

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    yeah I would rather they just nerf op stuff instead of some rework that leaves things both unresolved and worse off. simple numbers changes to start, and if something is so far behind or ahead of the pack then and only then change its functionality. reinventing the wheel when all it needs is a tune up doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    yeah I would rather they just nerf op stuff instead of some rework that leaves things both unresolved and worse off. simple numbers changes to start, and if something is so far behind or ahead of the pack then and only then change its functionality. reinventing the wheel when all it needs is a tune up doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    yeah I would rather they just nerf op stuff instead of some rework that leaves things both unresolved and worse off. simple numbers changes to start, and if something is so far behind or ahead of the pack then and only then change its functionality. reinventing the wheel when all it needs is a tune up doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

    Especially when your mechanics (no pun intended) have people driving on spare tires for months when you are supposed to immediately replace the wheel.

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Impact Savant: Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180. Unfortunately it doesn't look likely we'll be able to get this trait to work with conditions for the next balance update, but we'll keep investigating other options.

    These functionality changes restrict their ability to promptly respond to problems. And not communicating these issues makes it even worse. Then people accuse the developers of bad intent and the situation unravels further.

    I mean is Chrono even salvagable if they can't get impact savant to recognise condi damage?

    Better to skip the hastle.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No no , it is OK
    also thanks for chrno reworking, I have chance to try other chars !

  • @lare.5129 said:
    No no , it is OK
    also thanks for chrno reworking, I have chance to try other chars !

    They mean well. I just don't think they communicate enough with their tech department to see if a change goes wrong how fast it can be repaired.

  • @Vyrulisse.1246 said:
    A bit problem is that things nerfed long ago under "old" rules for specs and traits are never ever revisited thus they remain useless.

    I wish they told us more. We truly don't if they want to revisit them but can't because of technological limitations or they think they are fine.

  • just remove elite specs from wvw and pvp and anet can do what they want with that over performing elite specs.

  • Zawn.9647Zawn.9647 Member ✭✭✭

    scourge rework was the best thing that happened to necros - now we can see Core Necro and Reapers in pvp instead of scourges 24/7

  • @Zawn.9647 said:
    scourge rework was the best thing that happened to necros - now we can see Core Necro and Reapers in pvp instead of scourges 24/7

    Just because Scourge dropped out of the meta doesn't make core/reaper better.

  • Zawn.9647Zawn.9647 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Zawn.9647 said:
    scourge rework was the best thing that happened to necros - now we can see Core Necro and Reapers in pvp instead of scourges 24/7

    Just because Scourge dropped out of the meta doesn't make core/reaper better.

    that’s the thing. we don’t need nothing to get better - everything is already too kitten powerful
    we need the OP specs such as scourge/holo/etc to be nerfed so the others can be played as well

    i mean... if everything gets nerfed the unchanged ones will be good :D

  • @Zawn.9647 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Zawn.9647 said:
    scourge rework was the best thing that happened to necros - now we can see Core Necro and Reapers in pvp instead of scourges 24/7

    Just because Scourge dropped out of the meta doesn't make core/reaper better.

    that’s the thing. we don’t need nothing to get better - everything is already too kitten powerful
    we need the OP specs such as scourge/holo/etc to be nerfed so the others can be played as well

    i mean... if everything gets nerfed the unchanged ones will be good :D

    If everything is too powerful, then nothing is. You mean most things. In which case there are 27 specs. You might as well quit the game now if you think they will ever get around to nerfing the vast majority just so some can shine. Especially when each expansion adds 9 more. They have a limited amount of time.

  • Undo "swipe" ... tradeoff drd lul ...

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2019

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    If a elite needs a tradeoff then its soulbeast.

    Soulbeast cannot meld and use the pet simultaneously. Rezzing AI slightly faster is not OP. At worst numbers can be tuned. Altering the mechanic itself is overkill that will only backfire.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Zawn.9647 said:
    scourge rework was the best thing that happened to necros - now we can see Core Necro and Reapers in pvp instead of scourges 24/7

    Just because Scourge dropped out of the meta doesn't make core/reaper better.

    that’s the thing. we don’t need nothing to get better - everything is already too kitten powerful
    we need the OP specs such as scourge/holo/etc to be nerfed so the others can be played as well

    i mean... if everything gets nerfed the unchanged ones will be good :D

    If everything is too powerful, then nothing is. You mean most things. In which case there are 27 specs. You might as well quit the game now if you think they will ever get around to nerfing the vast majority just so some can shine. Especially when each expansion adds 9 more. They have a limited amount of time.

    Let's make an event where all skills and autoattacks deal 999999 damage. How about a raid where if you get hit by anything you auto-die? I'm sure those would go over great /s
    The idea of "if everything is OP, nothing is" is completely misguided and is based on laziness or ineptitude on some level rather than creating compelling gameplay.

    Something can "feel" overpowered or potent while not being overpowered. Kill Shot, Rapid Fire, and Executioner's Scythe - high-impact visceral skills with cool animations that can change a fight - are great examples (Remember that RF wasn't OP before Soulbeast).

    The problem is the really broken stuff in GW2 is the subtle stuff. It's things like Mirage Cloak that literally don't even have animations, boon application giving too much free stats, coefficients that are too high, lower cooldowns that can't be punished, and damage resistance that make punishing in general overly-difficult that have been running rampant since even HoT.

    The PoF stuff in particular is particularly egregious. And you can't buff core to compete since elites can use those same core traitlines. And if you base everything around the base class mechanics (F1-F5), you end up with overloaded/easy core builds that win by pressing only one or two buttons, and that's not conducive to creating compelling gameplay, either.

    Tradeoffs were always the answer. It's how the core game was made, and how the elite specs should have been made.

    Why this wasn't realized earlier is why so few people have faith in this company. This is like... the bare minimum needed to sustain a playerbase for an RPG.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2019

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Zawn.9647 said:
    scourge rework was the best thing that happened to necros - now we can see Core Necro and Reapers in pvp instead of scourges 24/7

    Just because Scourge dropped out of the meta doesn't make core/reaper better.

    that’s the thing. we don’t need nothing to get better - everything is already too kitten powerful
    we need the OP specs such as scourge/holo/etc to be nerfed so the others can be played as well

    i mean... if everything gets nerfed the unchanged ones will be good :D

    If everything is too powerful, then nothing is. You mean most things. In which case there are 27 specs. You might as well quit the game now if you think they will ever get around to nerfing the vast majority just so some can shine. Especially when each expansion adds 9 more. They have a limited amount of time.

    Let's make an event where all skills and autoattacks deal 999999 damage. How about a raid where if you get hit by anything you auto-die? I'm sure those would go over great /s
    The idea of "if everything is OP, nothing is" is completely misguided and is based on laziness or ineptitude on some level rather than creating compelling gameplay.

    Something can "feel" overpowered or potent while not being overpowered. Kill Shot, Rapid Fire, and Executioner's Scythe - high-impact visceral skills with cool animations that can change a fight - are great examples (Remember that RF wasn't OP before Soulbeast).

    The problem is the really broken stuff in GW2 is the subtle stuff. It's things like Mirage Cloak that literally don't even have animations, boon application giving too much free stats, coefficients that are too high, lower cooldowns that can't be punished, and damage resistance that make punishing in general overly-difficult that have been running rampant since even HoT.

    The PoF stuff in particular is particularly egregious. And you can't buff core to compete since elites can use those same core traitlines. And if you base everything around the base class mechanics (F1-F5), you end up with overloaded/easy core builds that win by pressing only one or two buttons, and that's not conducive to creating compelling gameplay, either.

    Tradeoffs were always the answer. It's how the core game was made, and how the elite specs should have been made.

    Why this wasn't realized earlier is why so few people have faith in this company. This is like... the bare minimum needed to sustain a playerbase for an RPG.

    So you just read the title, nothing else? This topic is not that there shouldn't be tradeoffs. But that tradeoffs should come from numbers and trait changes before they make technological changes they can't undo. Also, given they gave core engineer f5 and core revenant an f2 they can address core without touching the elite specs.

    The lack of faith is they spend time on reworks that break and aren't fixed when they could be making countless small changes.

    If everything is OP how about spending one development cycle adjusting numbers. Instead of several because they wasted work days reworking things.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And that sentiment is very different from what you said before.

    There are some facets of gameplay which need to be reworked and can't be fixed on numbers alone. The most egregious are often on the design-level, like how pre-nerf Mirage Cloak gave Mirage the second highest dodge uptime in the game, beating out even Acrobatics thief and was second only to Daredevil, which was only barely better.
    D/D thief is a good example. If buffed in numbers to be viable, it ends up OP, because its problems are design-level with its anti-synergy across its weapon skills.
    Stuff like Scourge is broken because of its synergy with core necro. Can't nerf it when it's broken for something nuanced like corruption capability rather than just a single skill or number; it's also why Scourge is not good in PvE; it's being nerfed mostly in numbers rather than redesigned in full trying to phase out its disproportionate strength. So the tradeoff for playing Scourge must come on its design-level, else it's just a better version of core necromancer at all turns.

    The tradeoffs to elites should be losing some element of core. Like Scourge shouldn't have such strong corruption capability if it provides direct support in the form of barrier. How FB shouldn't deal so much damage or tank so much if it wants to poop out boons. Like how SB shouldn't have huge gains to stats/boon access AND mobility at the same time. Like how Mirage Cloak needed to get nerfed because it let Mirage dodge during CC at no cost while also getting extended frames.

    Whether or not certain tradeoffs are implemented well is a whole different statement. But making blanket statements like "No more tradeoffs" and "If everything is OP nothing is OP" are based on flawed logic.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2019

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    And that sentiment is very different from what you said before.
    ...
    Whether or not certain tradeoffs are implemented well is a whole different statement. But making blanket statements like "No more tradeoffs"...

    Read the OP/follow up by other posters, and not just the title.

    There are some facets of gameplay which need to be reworked and can't be fixed on numbers alone. The most egregious are often on the design-level, like how pre-nerf Mirage Cloak gave Mirage the second highest dodge uptime in the game, beating out even Acrobatics thief and was second only to Daredevil, which was only barely better.
    D/D thief is a good example. If buffed in numbers to be viable, it ends up OP, because its problems are design-level with its anti-synergy across its weapon skills.
    Stuff like Scourge is broken because of its synergy with core necro. Can't nerf it when it's broken for something nuanced like corruption capability rather than just a single skill or number; it's also why Scourge is not good in PvE; it's being nerfed mostly in numbers rather than redesigned in full trying to phase out its disproportionate strength. So the tradeoff for playing Scourge must come on its design-level, else it's just a better version of core necromancer at all turns.

    D/D thief is already viable. Reaper and core necro were the ones referred to. And corruption capability is not too nuanced for a numbers/trait shift. The trait Harbinger Shroud exists for that purpose. Purely numbers you could reduce its corruptions to 1 or 0, and increase its damage. You don't need to nerf profession mechanics, not anymore.

    The tradeoffs to elites should be losing some element of core. Like Scourge shouldn't have such strong corruption capability if it provides direct support in the form of barrier. How FB shouldn't deal so much damage or tank so much if it wants to poop out boons. Like how SB shouldn't have huge gains to stats/boon access AND mobility at the same time. Like how Mirage Cloak needed to get nerfed because it let Mirage dodge during CC at no cost while also getting extended frames.

    There is a difference between no more tradeoffs, and no tradeoffs. I have no problem with how elusive mind was nerfed. I have a huge problem with the way scrapper was shipped without impact savant working with condi damage. And with Chrono being a tangled mess of technology.

    "If everything is OP nothing is OP" are based on flawed logic.

    There are 27 specializations. If everyone is OP purely because of numbers vs general base stats you can adjust those. Then you can start altering/removing traits. If its because of profession mechanics then you might as well quit the game. The time it would take them to rework 20+ specs rather than buffing one is years.

  • Vincenzo.3145Vincenzo.3145 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2019

    @lare.5129 said:
    No no , it is OK
    also thanks for chrno reworking, I have chance to try other chars !

    So it's fine to destroy something other people enjoy because you're 'forced' to play it? Chrono was meta, sure. But it wasn't required and was only objectively better in terms of min-maxing raid dps. Nerfing something doesn't make anything else better. If your raid buddies can't clear without a Chrono, you should probably find a new group m8. Then you can play whatever you want.

  • Zawn.9647Zawn.9647 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Zawn.9647 said:
    scourge rework was the best thing that happened to necros - now we can see Core Necro and Reapers in pvp instead of scourges 24/7

    Just because Scourge dropped out of the meta doesn't make core/reaper better.

    that’s the thing. we don’t need nothing to get better - everything is already too kitten powerful
    we need the OP specs such as scourge/holo/etc to be nerfed so the others can be played as well

    i mean... if everything gets nerfed the unchanged ones will be good :D

    If everything is too powerful, then nothing is. You mean most things. In which case there are 27 specs. You might as well quit the game now if you think they will ever get around to nerfing the vast majority just so some can shine. Especially when each expansion adds 9 more. They have a limited amount of time.

    sadly I already did... i come back from time to time, play for like half a season and quit again for 6-9 months and check how the game is :/

  • Gogdarth.6741Gogdarth.6741 Member ✭✭✭

    This patch brought no fully unwelcome reworks - I'm pretty sure if numbers are tweaked, both new traitline redesigns could be useful, or (if I am allowed to be hopeful after having my main demolished N times in a row) - it seems to be somewhat of a preparation for future especs, like how warrior might get a support spec with which a side of healing wouldn't hurt, and Necro - something like Scrapper, survivability/tanking based thing which could actually benefit from Death Magic's stuff. But yeah, that's all great, but.

    I think making such reworks, especially moving forward, should be a lot faster - and issues need to be addressed at a much faster pace. Especs are probably the most valuable content GW2 has - it's the thing we end up interacting with for years, unlike story (which you do mostly once, aside from rare urge to be a completionist on another alt or something or achievement hunting, which still takes a day at most), maps (give or take a month before you've grinded all you wanted), it's what shapes PvP modes from the point of release and onwards, years ahead. From a gameplay standpoint, they're the moneymaker. I've seen people buying HoT purely because they really wanted to try Chrono or Reaper or whatever, nothing else.

    Whenever such a change is implemented, due to us not having anything like "public beta servers" or something along those lines, a very close eye should be held at people's feedback and decisions that aren't working need to be addressed ASAP, exactly because of how important it is to keep specs if not strong, then at least enjoyable to use. With content droughts we get, least of all we should be getting balance at a much better pace, otherwise there's simply little to hold onto if you're out of your "i'm new and what's this map" phase for a couple of years now.

    The balance release cadence of 3 months is absolutely way too slow imo. Leaving specs nigh-unusable or exceptionally niche for such a long time means cutting on options and severely hurting the entire class. Radio silence does nothing but breeds discontent and dims hope for improvement. I'm not going to say something unreasonable or hyperbolic, like "WOW THANKS I HATE IT, UGGGH" - if you guys want to try a thing for a spec, god, I'm all in. Just don't... go with it when it's clearly bad, and leave us "on hold" for months about it only to discover that you did hear us, but still going with it (like that 300 to 180 change for IS - like, yeah, it's better but still a backwards trait? And the "function" gyro not being of any use still?).

    Ultimately, you're making a game which is meant to be enjoyed first and foremost. If spec is left at a spot where people complain about it feeling bad - as in, not bringing base enjoyment of use it had anymore and just being clunky and kind of annoying most of the time like Chrono is now - it is important to tell us what to expect, reasoning behind it aside from "little more planning" - because that one is... weird?.. - and communicate. Numbers matter very little when spec went from "fun to use with coolest mechanics ever" to "Worse than Core gameplay-wise". It doesn't sound like a tradeoff, it sounds like a bother.

    Bersy rework was great. I still wish it had little less reliance on Rage skills and had better PvP options planned for it to be a competitive SPB alternative, but other than that it actually made me use my warrior. It shows you guys can do good things, and I'm hopeful that maybe if you were a little more willing to work with us - players who end up fiddling with those things for years on - we can both achieve something that players themselves enjoy and has solid places in it's intended roles across gamemodes. I don't think it's productive to cry all the time about changes being made - yeah, sometimes one tries things to see how it'll work - but it's important to acknowledge that not all changes needed to happen in the first place and to be willing on going back with them, especially when the feedback is just overwhelmingly poor. Especially with something as integral and crucial to game's lifespan and attention-holding capabilities as elite specs.

    also please I beg you do something to rifle to not be this bad on warrior god I'll do anything aside from weird creepy stuff and your dishes uweeeh uweeeeeh

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:
    just remove elite specs from wvw and pvp and anet can do what they want with that over performing elite specs.

    OH heck no.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:
    Undo "swipe" ... tradeoff drd lul ...

    They actually shouldn't.

  • @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    This patch brought no fully unwelcome reworks - I'm pretty sure if numbers are tweaked, both new traitline redesigns could be useful, or (if I am allowed to be hopeful after having my main demolished N times in a row) - it seems to be somewhat of a preparation for future especs, like how warrior might get a support spec with which a side of healing wouldn't hurt, and Necro - something like Scrapper, survivability/tanking based thing which could actually benefit from Death Magic's stuff. But yeah, that's all great, but.

    I think making such reworks, especially moving forward, should be a lot faster - and issues need to be addressed at a much faster pace. Especs are probably the most valuable content GW2 has - it's the thing we end up interacting with for years, unlike story (which you do mostly once, aside from rare urge to be a completionist on another alt or something or achievement hunting, which still takes a day at most), maps (give or take a month before you've grinded all you wanted), it's what shapes PvP modes from the point of release and onwards, years ahead. From a gameplay standpoint, they're the moneymaker. I've seen people buying HoT purely because they really wanted to try Chrono or Reaper or whatever, nothing else.

    Whenever such a change is implemented, due to us not having anything like "public beta servers" or something along those lines, a very close eye should be held at people's feedback and decisions that aren't working need to be addressed ASAP, exactly because of how important it is to keep specs if not strong, then at least enjoyable to use. With content droughts we get, least of all we should be getting balance at a much better pace, otherwise there's simply little to hold onto if you're out of your "i'm new and what's this map" phase for a couple of years now.

    The balance release cadence of 3 months is absolutely way too slow imo. Leaving specs nigh-unusable or exceptionally niche for such a long time means cutting on options and severely hurting the entire class. Radio silence does nothing but breeds discontent and dims hope for improvement. I'm not going to say something unreasonable or hyperbolic, like "WOW THANKS I HATE IT, UGGGH" - if you guys want to try a thing for a spec, god, I'm all in. Just don't... go with it when it's clearly bad, and leave us "on hold" for months about it only to discover that you did hear us, but still going with it (like that 300 to 180 change for IS - like, yeah, it's better but still a backwards trait? And the "function" gyro not being of any use still?).

    Ultimately, you're making a game which is meant to be enjoyed first and foremost. If spec is left at a spot where people complain about it feeling bad - as in, not bringing base enjoyment of use it had anymore and just being clunky and kind of annoying most of the time like Chrono is now - it is important to tell us what to expect, reasoning behind it aside from "little more planning" - because that one is... weird?.. - and communicate. Numbers matter very little when spec went from "fun to use with coolest mechanics ever" to "Worse than Core gameplay-wise". It doesn't sound like a tradeoff, it sounds like a bother.

    Bersy rework was great. I still wish it had little less reliance on Rage skills and had better PvP options planned for it to be a competitive SPB alternative, but other than that it actually made me use my warrior. It shows you guys can do good things, and I'm hopeful that maybe if you were a little more willing to work with us - players who end up fiddling with those things for years on - we can both achieve something that players themselves enjoy and has solid places in it's intended roles across gamemodes. I don't think it's productive to cry all the time about changes being made - yeah, sometimes one tries things to see how it'll work - but it's important to acknowledge that not all changes needed to happen in the first place and to be willing on going back with them, especially when the feedback is just overwhelmingly poor. Especially with something as integral and crucial to game's lifespan and attention-holding capabilities as elite specs.

    also please I beg you do something to rifle to not be this bad on warrior god I'll do anything aside from weird creepy stuff and your dishes uweeeh uweeeeeh

    I don't think they could ever reach the ASAP response you mention when they are making complicated tech changes.

  • Gogdarth.6741Gogdarth.6741 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I don't think they could ever reach the ASAP response you mention when they are making complicated tech changes.

    Then it just highlights a bigger issue which needs to be addressed too, don't you think? The recent blog post about skill design decisions split and activity seems promising, but I'll choose to remain on cautiously-intrigued side of things for now, myself.

  • @Gogdarth.6741 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I don't think they could ever reach the ASAP response you mention when they are making complicated tech changes.

    Then it just highlights a bigger issue which needs to be addressed too, don't you think? The recent blog post about skill design decisions split and activity seems promising, but I'll choose to remain on cautiously-intrigued side of things for now, myself.

    Well yes. But I wouldn't have made this discussion if I thought they would/could sort out the bigger issue.