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Icebrood Saga trailer


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@Kalavier.1097 said:Jormag has been confirmed to be talking to Bangar in the trailer.

Interesting. You know what? I think that Jormag is an air spirit, possibly the leader of some of the other dragons.

That would make Jormàg the leader of Primordus, Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik and Zaithan?

The speculation that Jormag is female may be worth looking into. What if Jormag is the parent of some of these other dragons? What if Jormag is Kralkatorrik's mother?

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@"Stephen.6312" said:That would make Jormàg the leader of Primordus, Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik and Zaithan?The Elder Dragons have long been confirmed to not be allied, and that their minions will fight if they encounter one-another (rare as it is and not shown in-game except when under Subject Alpha's unifying command). They've also been confirmed to not have leaders (originally Primordus was thought - and asked if so - to be a leader of the Elder Dragons, this got debunked with a "they have no leader").

@"Stephen.6312" said:The speculation that Jormag is female may be worth looking into. What if Jormag is the parent of some of these other dragons? What if Jormag is Kralkatorrik's mother?Jormag is confirmed "non-binary", or to use original terminology, genderless. Neither male nor female. And this extends to all Elder Dragons - even Kralkatorrik. For the sake of continuing the discussion, I will refer to them as "high dragons" so as to include the six Elder Dragons' bloodlines.

All use of male or female pronouns for the Elder Dragons and their kin is effectively superfluous. The only "high dragons" (beyond Kralkatorrik's "mother" line) to use such would be Glint, Aurene, and Vlast (but even Vlast used such only one time for himself, iirc).

Despite having a male voice actor, unless I'm forgotten an obscure line, Mordremoth never calls itself male nor do any mordrem. And the same goes for Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik. The only icebrood to call Jormag male are the former Svanir, who are misogynists and thus untrustworthy in this regard.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Stephen.6312" said:That would make Jormàg the leader of Primordus, Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik and Zaithan?The Elder Dragons have long been confirmed to not be allied, and that their minions will fight if they encounter one-another (rare as it is and not shown in-game except when under Subject Alpha's unifying command). They've also been confirmed to not have leaders (originally Primordus was thought - and asked if so - to be a leader of the Elder Dragons, this got debunked with a "they have no leader").

@"Stephen.6312" said:The speculation that Jormag is female may be worth looking into. What if Jormag is the parent of some of these other dragons? What if Jormag is Kralkatorrik's mother?Jormag is confirmed "non-binary", or to use original terminology, genderless. Neither male nor female. And this extends to all Elder Dragons - even Kralkatorrik. For the sake of continuing the discussion, I will refer to them as "high dragons" so as to include the six Elder Dragons' bloodlines.

All use of male or female pronouns for the Elder Dragons and their kin is effectively superfluous. The only "high dragons" (beyond Kralkatorrik's "mother" line) to use such would be Glint, Aurene, and Vlast (but even Vlast used such only one time for himself, iirc).

Despite having a male voice actor, unless I'm forgotten an obscure line, Mordremoth never calls itself male nor do any mordrem. And the same goes for Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik. The only icebrood to call Jormag male are the former Svanir, who are misogynists and thus untrustworthy in this regard.

I am curious for your thoughts on Kralkatorrik's "Mother", Aurene's "Grandfather" and repeated reference to Kralk as "he". What are we to make of such things?

You've brought up examples such as these, then seemingly dismissed them as irrelevant. I think what we really need from you, Konig, is an explanation or theory that helps us understand why you feel objective facts should be reinterpreted.

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The dragons only gender is the one they put on for themselves. I imagine much like many humans, they have certain persona's, possibly ones informed from the genders of mortal races. Mordremoth has no gender, which is to say non-binary but Mordromoth literally has no body for which there to be a gender, or at the least can have no more a gender then a jungle can have a gender. Aurene has chosen to identify as female, perhaps because she identifies with classical female traits such as nurturing and protectiveness, she does seem very defensively oriented. Jormag choosing to be non-Binary has a very obvious reason in my eyes, it's easier to persuade people when you can easily slip in and out of the void of their gender of choice to tempt them.

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I don't understand why Pale Tree should be used to contain the power of mordremoth, excluding Balthazar the power of fallen dragons is passed on to other dragons, and now that power belongs to Aurene Jormag and Primordius, as is the same for the power of Zhaitan that Aurene got after the defeat of Kralkatorrik.Aurene currently has at her disposal all the powers of kralkatorrik, 2/3 of Mordremoth and those of Zhaitan and Balthazar, it is probable that she does not know all that she is able to do but does not seem to me to have problems in managing all this power alone ( at least for now), Aurene counts for 3 and is opposed to the other 3 dragons.

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@"Loesh.4697" said:The dragons only gender is the one they put on for themselves. I imagine much like many humans, they have certain persona's, possibly ones informed from the genders of mortal races. Mordremoth has no gender, which is to say non-binary but Mordromoth literally has no body for which there to be a gender, or at the least can have no more a gender then a jungle can have a gender. Aurene has chosen to identify as female, perhaps because she identifies with classical female traits such as nurturing and protectiveness, she does seem very defensively oriented. Jormag choosing to be non-Binary has a very obvious reason in my eyes, it's easier to persuade people when you can easily slip in and out of the void of their gender of choice to tempt them.

Modremoth went after Glint's egg through Aerin. One of the HoT trailers - I forget which one - mentioned that Mordremoth was very interested in it. If dragons have no gender, merely the concept of gender, then we need to try to explain such details. I don't think "non-binary" cuts it.

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@Revolution.5409 said:I don't understand why Pale Tree should be used to contain the power of mordremoth, excluding Balthazar the power of fallen dragons is passed on to other dragons, and now that power belongs to Aurene Jormag and Primordius, as is the same for the power of Zhaitan that Aurene got after the defeat of Kralkatorrik.Aurene currently has at her disposal all the powers of kralkatorrik, 2/3 of Mordremoth and those of Zhaitan and Balthazar, it is probable that she does not know all that she is able to do but does not seem to me to have problems in managing all this power alone ( at least for now), Aurene counts for 3 and is opposed to the other 3 dragons.

It is heavily implied that if Aurene tried to go beyond her current stockpile she would go insane. If she is not slowly going insane already. We want to replace the other Elder Dragons because they keep killing people. But we also need Aurene to be healthy. For her to continue to take part she would need to unload all of this extra power. Having the Pale Tree take all of the Plant/Mind domain would theoretically allow Aurene to absorb some of the power within Jormag.

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@"Stephen.6312" said:I am curious for your thoughts on Kralkatorrik's "Mother", Aurene's "Grandfather" and repeated reference to Kralk as "he". What are we to make of such things?

You've brought up examples such as these, then seemingly dismissed them as irrelevant. I think what we really need from you, Konig, is an explanation or theory that helps us understand why you feel objective facts should be reinterpreted.

Aurene's use of grandfather seems largely done more for impact than anything else. Lines such as "Grandfather, look at me!" wouldn't be as impactful in the English language if they used gender neutral terminology (in this case, "Grandparent, look at me!"). There's also the interpretation that - except for Kralkatorrik's "mother" line - all uses of gender association for Kralkatorrik came from Glint and Aurene, who were communicating with mortals (or around them, in that case).

The extent of Kralkatorrik's "mother" line is hard to place, because we literally just have one word to go off of and nothing else.

I didn't really dismiss them, tbh, I just didn't wand to drag out the response since the main purpose of the response was "the Elder Dragons have no actual gender, any association of such is social-based, and Jormag uses gender neutral terms rather than male or female."

@"Loesh.4697" said:The dragons only gender is the one they put on for themselves. I imagine much like many humans, they have certain persona's, possibly ones informed from the genders of mortal races. Mordremoth has no gender, which is to say non-binary but Mordromoth literally has no body for which there to be a gender, or at the least can have no more a gender then a jungle can have a gender. Aurene has chosen to identify as female, perhaps because she identifies with classical female traits such as nurturing and protectiveness, she does seem very defensively oriented. Jormag choosing to be non-Binary has a very obvious reason in my eyes, it's easier to persuade people when you can easily slip in and out of the void of their gender of choice to tempt them.

Mordremoth had a body. It might not have been its original body, but it was its core body for the past 10,000 years, and for all we know it could have been gendered, or not.

@"Revolution.5409" said:I don't understand why Pale Tree should be used to contain the power of mordremoth, excluding Balthazar the power of fallen dragons is passed on to other dragons, and now that power belongs to Aurene Jormag and Primordius, as is the same for the power of Zhaitan that Aurene got after the defeat of Kralkatorrik.Aurene currently has at her disposal all the powers of kralkatorrik, 2/3 of Mordremoth and those of Zhaitan and Balthazar, it is probable that she does not know all that she is able to do but does not seem to me to have problems in managing all this power alone ( at least for now), Aurene counts for 3 and is opposed to the other 3 dragons.

First of all, the magic doesn't go solely to the other dragons. Nor does it go completely. Secondly, the Elder Dragons that take portions of dead Elder Dragons' magic do not take up the position of The All. In Season 3's Taimi Simulation during Flashpoint, we get a new vision of The All. Despite the fact that Kralkatorrik and Primordus took significant chunks of Mordremoth's and ZHaitan's magic at the time, in said vision of The All, Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's spheres were inert.

This is the "issue of balance" that will destroy the world. The All's six spheres being imbalanced. And to fix that, we need full out proper replacements - all evidence suggests that an Elder Dragon can only be connected to one singular sphere in The All.

Also, there is zero indication that Aurene has "2/3 of Mordremoth and those of Zhaitan". First off, she showed no signs of consuming the foreign magic Kralkatorrik absorbed. Second off, even if she did:

  • Mordremoth's magic split into four directions which happened to meet the cardinal directions (north, south, east, west)
  • The east magic eventually hit Kralkatorrik, so he would have gotten less than 1/4th since it spread out from there. It should be noted that Kralkatorrik only shows Mind magic. He never utilized plant magic (likewise, we've only seen him use Death, not Shadow; and Primordus only used Plant and what could pass as Shadow more than Death despite the "Death-Touched" name).
  • The north went to Tarir than the Maguuma Bloodstone. Even if we assume Aurene got half and the Maguuma Bloodstone got half, there's also the spread out that occurred, so it wouldn't be a perfect 1/8th each. And when Balthazar absorbed the Bloodstone's magic, a ton got spread out into the world, so he would have gotten even less of that 1/8th.
  • The west magic is fully unaccounted for.
  • The southern magic went to the Ring of Fire which Primordus ate. And Primordus likely still has that magic, as Taimi's Machine was pulling Primordus energy out of Primordus and Jormag magic out of Jormag, not Zhaitan/Mordremoth energy out of them.

It was also confirmed that when Kralkatorrik died, Aurene didn't absorb every single bit of magic. Similarly for Balthazar magic (as Balthazar's magic flowing into Tyria is what made Volatile Magic that is the S4 currency and has now spread across Central Tyria even to Dry Top). This means whatever magic Balthazar had, Aurene and Kralkatorrik combined got less than 100%, and when Aurene took Kralkatorrik's magic she again got less than 100%.

So we're looking at less than 1/2 of Mordremoth's magic in Aurene, probably closer to 7/16th, if she did indeed absorb Mordremoth, Balthazar, and ZHaitan's magic that Kralkatorrik consumed (again, we have zero indication such happened).

And we're looking at less that for Zhaitan, since we cannot even confirm how many splits it took (we know of 3).

Even ignoring all of that, we hit the initial issue. It isn't just a balance of magic quantities that is hindering the world. It's a balance of The All itself, and when Primordus and Kralkatorrik took Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic, they did not assume their roles in The All. So it's reasonable to say that Aurene only took Kralkatorrik's role in The All.

And on top of all of that, we have the heavy implication by devs that although Aurene can handle conflicting magic before ascending as an Elder Dragon, she isn't fully immune to the conflicting magic causing harm to the consumer. She was able to handle the small amount of conflicting magic because of her bond with mortals, as foreshadowed by Glint in Episode 5's All or Nothing; as an Elder Dragon, she's housing a lot more magic, but she hasn't yet shared it with more mortals than the Commander and Caithe. So we can expect pains to begin to set in - or more branded minions to be made to alleviate this.

(Side tangent: since Taimi's Machine was taking Primordus and Jormag magic out, and not touching Mordremoth/Zhaitan magic, it'd be interesting if when we revisit Primordus, he's no longer a fire-primary dragon, but a Plant-Shadow Elder Dragon with a touch of Fire instead. Unlike Jormag, Primordus had taken in a significant amount of Plant and Shadow/Death magic).

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Stephen.6312" said:I am curious for your thoughts on Kralkatorrik's "Mother", Aurene's "Grandfather" and repeated reference to Kralk as "he". What are we to make of such things?

You've brought up examples such as these, then seemingly dismissed them as irrelevant. I think what we really need from you, Konig, is an explanation or theory that helps us understand why you feel objective facts should be reinterpreted.

Aurene's use of grandfather seems largely done more for impact than anything else. Lines such as "Grandfather, look at me!" wouldn't be as impactful in the English language if they used gender neutral terminology (in this case, "Grandparent, look at me!"). There's also the interpretation that - except for Kralkatorrik's "mother" line - all uses of gender association for Kralkatorrik came from Glint and Aurene, who were communicating with mortals (or around them, in that case).

The extent of Kralkatorrik's "mother" line is hard to place, because we literally just have one word to go off of and nothing else.

I didn't really dismiss them, tbh, I just didn't wand to drag out the response since the main purpose of the response was "the Elder Dragons have no actual gender, any association of such is social-based, and Jormag uses gender neutral terms rather than male or female."

@"Loesh.4697" said:The dragons only gender is the one they put on for themselves. I imagine much like many humans, they have certain persona's, possibly ones informed from the genders of mortal races. Mordremoth has no gender, which is to say non-binary but Mordromoth literally has no body for which there to be a gender, or at the least can have no more a gender then a jungle can have a gender. Aurene has chosen to identify as female, perhaps because she identifies with classical female traits such as nurturing and protectiveness, she does seem very defensively oriented. Jormag choosing to be non-Binary has a very obvious reason in my eyes, it's easier to persuade people when you can easily slip in and out of the void of their gender of choice to tempt them.

It
, but it was its core body for the past 10,000 years, and for all we know it could have been gendered, or not.

@"Revolution.5409" said:I don't understand why Pale Tree should be used to contain the power of mordremoth, excluding Balthazar the power of fallen dragons is passed on to other dragons, and now that power belongs to Aurene Jormag and Primordius, as is the same for the power of Zhaitan that Aurene got after the defeat of Kralkatorrik.Aurene currently has at her disposal all the powers of kralkatorrik, 2/3 of Mordremoth and those of Zhaitan and Balthazar, it is probable that she does not know all that she is able to do but does not seem to me to have problems in managing all this power alone ( at least for now), Aurene counts for 3 and is opposed to the other 3 dragons.

First of all, the magic doesn't go solely to the other dragons. Nor does it go completely. Secondly, the Elder Dragons that take portions of dead Elder Dragons' magic do not take up the position of The All. In Season 3's Taimi Simulation during Flashpoint, we get a new vision of The All. Despite the fact that Kralkatorrik and Primordus took significant chunks of Mordremoth's and ZHaitan's magic at the time, in said vision of The All, Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's spheres were
inert.

This is the "issue of balance" that will destroy the world. The All's six spheres being imbalanced. And to fix that, we need full out proper replacements - all evidence suggests that an Elder Dragon can only be connected to one singular sphere in The All.

Also, there is
zero
indication that Aurene has "2/3 of Mordremoth and those of Zhaitan". First off, she showed no signs of consuming the foreign magic Kralkatorrik absorbed. Second off, even if she did:
  • Mordremoth's magic split into four directions which happened to meet the cardinal directions (north, south, east, west)
  • The east magic eventually hit Kralkatorrik, so he would have gotten
    less
    than 1/4th since it spread out from there. It should be noted that Kralkatorrik
    only shows Mind magic.
    He never utilized plant magic (likewise, we've only seen him use Death, not Shadow; and Primordus only used Plant and what could pass as Shadow more than Death despite the "Death-Touched" name).
  • The north went to Tarir than the Maguuma Bloodstone. Even if we assume Aurene got half and the Maguuma Bloodstone got half, there's also the spread out that occurred, so it wouldn't be a perfect 1/8th each. And when Balthazar absorbed the Bloodstone's magic, a ton got spread out into the world, so he would have gotten even less of that 1/8th.
  • The west magic is fully unaccounted for.
  • The southern magic went to the Ring of Fire which Primordus ate. And Primordus likely still has that magic, as Taimi's Machine was pulling
    Primordus energy
    out of Primordus and Jormag magic out of Jormag, not Zhaitan/Mordremoth energy out of them.

It was also confirmed that when Kralkatorrik died, Aurene didn't absorb every single bit of magic. Similarly for Balthazar magic (as Balthazar's magic flowing into Tyria is what made Volatile Magic that is the S4 currency and has now spread across Central Tyria even to Dry Top). This means whatever magic Balthazar had, Aurene and Kralkatorrik combined
got less than 100%
, and when Aurene took Kralkatorrik's magic she again
got less than 100%.

So we're looking at
less than
1/2 of Mordremoth's magic in Aurene, probably closer to 7/16th,
if
she did indeed absorb Mordremoth, Balthazar, and ZHaitan's magic that Kralkatorrik consumed (again, we have zero indication such happened).

And we're looking at
less that
for Zhaitan, since we cannot even confirm how many splits it took (we know of 3).

Even ignoring all of that, we hit the initial issue. It isn't
just
a balance of magic quantities that is hindering the world. It's a balance of The All itself, and when Primordus and Kralkatorrik took Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic, they did not assume their roles in The All. So it's reasonable to say that Aurene only took Kralkatorrik's role in The All.

And on top of
all of that
, we have the heavy implication by devs that although Aurene can handle conflicting magic before ascending as an Elder Dragon, she isn't
fully
immune to the conflicting magic causing harm to the consumer. She was able to handle the small amount of conflicting magic because of her bond with mortals, as foreshadowed by Glint in Episode 5's All or Nothing; as an Elder Dragon, she's housing a lot more magic, but she hasn't yet shared it with more mortals than the Commander and Caithe. So we can expect pains to begin to set in - or more branded minions to be made to alleviate this.

(Side tangent: since Taimi's Machine was taking Primordus and Jormag magic out, and not touching Mordremoth/Zhaitan magic, it'd be interesting if when we revisit Primordus, he's no longer a fire-primary dragon, but a Plant-Shadow Elder Dragon with a touch of Fire instead. Unlike Jormag, Primordus had taken in a significant amount of Plant and Shadow/Death magic).

Fair enough Konig. I have a theory about their reproduction. But it's probably best if I just sit on it for now.

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  • 4 months later...

So after the announcement of the 3rd map being in the Woodland Cascades, I re-watched the trailer. So the first sequences shows Grothmar with the burnt husk of a charr, the second scene shows the Kodan on an ocean, but could still represent the Bjora Marches. The 3rd sequence then shows the humans and the centaur which to me appears to be the Woodland Cascades. Is Anet showing us the sequences of maps in the trailer with a fourth map being near the Isle of Janthir body of water and the last sequence being back in the Shiverpeaks for the finale?

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@Tyson.5160 said:So after the announcement of the 3rd map being in the Woodland Cascades, I re-watched the trailer. So the first sequences shows Grothmar with the burnt husk of a charr, the second scene shows the Kodan on an ocean, but could still represent the Bjora Marches. The 3rd sequence then shows the humans and the centaur which to me appears to be the Woodland Cascades. Is Anet showing us the sequences of maps in the trailer with a fourth map being near the Isle of Janthir body of water and the last sequence being back in the Shiverpeaks for the finale?

I had noticed that last week myself. Not only that, but if we exclude Hoelbrak's scene, there are five scenes. Which correlates to the theory of five maps this season(if every episode after the prologue is paired for one map).

Scene 1: Burning charr at Blood Keep - Map: Grothmar Valley - Episode: 0Scene 2: Kodan burning their dead at the unfrozen sea in the Far Shiverpeaks - Map: Bjora Marches (Drakkar Lake + Kodan) - Episode: 1+2Scene 3: Centaurs marching human slaves - Map: Woodland Cascades - Episode: 3+4Scene 4: Ships sinking on a vast sea - Map: ??? - Episode: 5 + 6Scene 5: Norn marching in the Shiverpeaks - Episode: 7 + 8Scene 6: Icebrood marching on Hoelbrak - Map: Hoelbrak - Episode: 8 (story instance?) or a representation of the whole saga

This makes me think that Episode 5/6 will be in/along Janthir Bay, and then Epsiode 7/8 will return to the Far Shvierpeaks for a final confrontation of Jormag marching south.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:So after the announcement of the 3rd map being in the Woodland Cascades, I re-watched the trailer. So the first sequences shows Grothmar with the burnt husk of a charr, the second scene shows the Kodan on an ocean, but could still represent the Bjora Marches. The 3rd sequence then shows the humans and the centaur which to me appears to be the Woodland Cascades. Is Anet showing us the sequences of maps in the trailer with a fourth map being near the Isle of Janthir body of water and the last sequence being back in the Shiverpeaks for the finale?

I had noticed that last week myself. Not only that, but if we exclude Hoelbrak's scene, there are
five
scenes. Which correlates to the theory of five maps this season(if every episode after the prologue is paired for one map).

Scene 1: Burning charr at Blood Keep - Map: Grothmar Valley - Episode: 0Scene 2: Kodan burning their dead at the unfrozen sea in the Far Shiverpeaks - Map: Bjora Marches (Drakkar Lake + Kodan) - Episode: 1+2Scene 3: Centaurs marching human slaves - Map: Woodland Cascades - Episode: 3+4Scene 4: Ships sinking on a vast sea - Map: ??? - Episode: 5 + 6Scene 5: Norn marching in the Shiverpeaks - Episode: 7 + 8Scene 6: Icebrood marching on Hoelbrak - Map: Hoelbrak - Episode: 8 (story instance?) or a representation of the whole saga

This makes me think that Episode 5/6 will be in/along Janthir Bay, and then Epsiode 7/8 will return to the Far Shvierpeaks for a final confrontation of Jormag marching south.

That last scene reminds of a somewhat snow covered and slighted damaged Norn building of Gunnar’s Hold, rather then say Hoelbrak. It would be an interesting finale choice as it was Norn “Capital” or town area of the Far Shiverpeaks. With the Norn reclaiming their homelands as hopefully a plot point for this saga. Also seems to line up with large tundra area that was described in Season 3 episode 3 of where Jormag is suppose to reside.

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According to lore though, Gunnar's Hold was crushed under an iceberg, so there should be as little left of it as Volsung's Stead (now Asgeir's Legacy). GW1 norn buildings were also quite a bit different than GW2 norn buildings, which the cinematic reflects more (though they could easily retcon this by giving Gunnar's Hold the Owl Lodge model).

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