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Let's Talk About WvW Balance


Cal Cohen.2358

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:So how about ANET decides what the TTK (Time to Kill) should be in WvW, under various situations, and start from there? Once you folks agree on a picture of what that looks like, you'll know right off what needs fixing.

Good post - that's where I'd want to start as well.

It looks like a lot of people have already discussed various outliers, and from my perspective it becomes obvious what those are when some baseline for what's OK has been established. So I'll just share my thoughts on the long-term meta.

  • In a one-on-one fight, it should take at least 3 seconds to down another player if they do everything wrong.
  • In a one-on-one fight, any build's defenses should be counterable (eventually) by any class running a build designed to break through those defenses.
  • There should be diminishing returns on stat stacking. For example, going from 3000 to 3400 power should seldom be a better choice than going from 1000 to 1400 vitality on the same build (unless you never expose yourself to damage).
  • Healing or regenerating a useful amount should require an investment in healing power - so players with 0 healing power should be mostly reliant on team-mates for healing.
  • Boons and conditions should be relatively rare and meaningful. Conditions should be used to disable defenses and apply long-term damage pressure (not burst); boons should mitigate those.

And then there's the long shots:

  • Stealth should be a strategic ability that can only be applied outside of combat. Classes that rely on it for tactical combat should be adjusted so they can survive using other forms of evasion instead.
  • Mesmers should focus on nullifying enemy defense and offense to leave them vulnerable to attacks, not providing burst damage.

Ideally I'd like something closer to the GW1 state where there was more of a synergy between classes in a team - you'd have them focus on specific things more often than trying to do a bit of everything - and where disenchanting and dealing damage were often performed by different players, both roles being vital if you wanted to score a kill. I'm seeing a lot of builds that just obliterate other classes without having to worry about defenses as anything but a speed bump in GW2, which makes for less satisfying fights.

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@Sarrs.4831 said:So I don't do much big group PvP and I don't really have much to add to that discussion butWhy is Reaper, which is supposed to be excellent in group fights with its Shouts, melee-oriented shroud and cleaving greatsword, outclassed in melee by Scourge, which are supposed to be ranged area denial?

Someone said earlier that Scourge does too much. It absolutely does. I don't mind it throwing out a Shade and crapping all over a group, that's its shtick, but it seems to do just about everything better than a Reaper when a Reaper should imo be a big scary pusher.

try play Scourge in any other mode that isnt WvW Scourge right now after last patch is completely useless and trash in all game modes and content aside from WvW where they failed to nerf him and made him even more broken. dont get it wrong tho. i agree Scourge is broken on wvw along with some other classes. but idk why they would only focus on balancing wvw now and pvp.. if Scourge is nerfed on WvW (which it should be) im asking it balanced and buffed in the PVE to be atlkeast use in some mode..

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@noiwk.2760 said:try play Scourge in any other mode that isnt WvW Scourge right now after last patch is completely useless and trash in all game modes and content aside from WvW where they failed to nerf him and made him even more broken. dont get it wrong tho. i agree Scourge is broken on wvw along with some other classes. but idk why they would only focus on balancing wvw now and pvp.. if Scourge is nerfed on WvW (which it should be) im asking it balanced and buffed in the PVE to be atlkeast use in some mode..

This is a WvW balance discussion. We can talk about Scourge in other areas in other threads. Let's please keep the thread focused

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So this thing claims that the spvp/wvw balance is going to be entirely separate from the pve balance. if that's the case, are you capable of reverting the chrono and druid changes that happened as a result of an attempt to shift the pve support meta over to pof specs instead of HoT specs? Balance literally butchered these two classes who now have no place in competitive game modes.

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@Sarrs.4831 said:So I don't do much big group PvP and I don't really have much to add to that discussion butWhy is Reaper, which is supposed to be excellent in group fights with its Shouts, melee-oriented shroud and cleaving greatsword, outclassed in melee by Scourge, which are supposed to be ranged area denial?

Someone said earlier that Scourge does too much. It absolutely does. I don't mind it throwing out a Shade and crapping all over a group, that's its shtick, but it seems to do just about everything better than a Reaper when a Reaper should imo be a big scary pusher.

Unfortunately Anet has been doing their best up until now to make pof specs better than HoT specs across the board. There's a few cases where HoT specs are still more popular, but that has more to do with the new PoF versions being so terribly unfun to play than actually being worse (deadeye, firebrand)

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@Sarrs.4831 said:

@noiwk.2760 said:try play Scourge in any other mode that isnt WvW Scourge right now after last patch is completely useless and trash in all game modes and content aside from WvW where they failed to nerf him and made him even more broken. dont get it wrong tho. i agree Scourge is broken on wvw along with some other classes. but idk why they would only focus on balancing wvw now and pvp.. if Scourge is nerfed on WvW (which it should be) im asking it balanced and buffed in the PVE to be atlkeast use in some mode..

This is a WvW balance discussion. We can talk about Scourge in other areas in other threads. Let's please keep the thread focused

i would.. but there isnt lets talk about PVE balance because apparently the game company decided PVE isnt important.

i main Scourge and with last patch i watched Scourge becoming an only WvW vailble . now you ask it nerfed in WvW which is only mode Scourge is still used.

so i gotta stand up and say nope.. not unless /untill they fix it in other game modes. you are now asking my class being removed from the game ..

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Personally, I believe you should play wvw extensively and see for yourself what the classes can do, how they synergize, what is broken and needs fixing. Latest scourge rework, for instance, had the opposite effect (it was a buff). Otherwise, this thread will simply become another "nerf every class but my own!", as it already has started to become.

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@Sarrs.4831 said:So I don't do much big group PvP and I don't really have much to add to that discussion butWhy is Reaper, which is supposed to be excellent in group fights with its Shouts, melee-oriented shroud and cleaving greatsword, outclassed in melee by Scourge, which are supposed to be ranged area denial?

Someone said earlier that Scourge does too much. It absolutely does. I don't mind it throwing out a Shade and crapping all over a group, that's its shtick, but it seems to do just about everything better than a Reaper when a Reaper should imo be a big scary pusher.

some players know how to do it.

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Hi Cal, firstly thanks for the communication and effort to engage with your community.

Short term - I'm taking this to mean ~3 months from now:Don't focus too much on profession / trait / skill changes. Address power creep quickly in as many forms as possible e.g. T7 food is OP, guild buffs, 10 target anything - damage, heals, corrupts, cleanses etc. In other words, any quick tactical changes to hit both offensive and defensive power creep and assess what impact that has.

Long term - I'm taking this to mean 6-12 months from now.What is the vision for WvW combat and what are the principles that enable this vision? Until you define this, we will all have differing views and feedback on how to achieve balance. We need to think about this before we can talk about specific professions / trait / skill changes.

Examples:

  1. A group of players is more than the sum of its parts. E.g. 1xHeal + 1xSupport + 1xDamage > 3xDamage.
  2. Builds should have roles with trade offs. E.g. a build that can give 5 people offensive support such as 25 might and fury should not be able to provide any significant defensive support such as OP cleansing, stability, protection, regen etc. There is a risk that this approach may simplify some builds, but it's a risk worth taking imo.
  3. Reward active and co-ordinated play. E.g. movement/positioning should matter, timed use of skills should matter, combo fields should matter. OP damage/control/support should only be possible with co-ordinated effort. E.g. Most powerful heal should only be possible via blasting water fields or a heal skill/trait where two players timing heal skills together at the same time triggers an additional heal bonus.

I don't think any of the above are that innovative or controversial, in fact they are likely already principles that you consider in current balancing. I'm not even sure you should be overly consultative on these, but if we are all clear and reminded of things like this, we can have a more effective conversation about specific changes.

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@"Voltekka.2375" said:"nerf every class but my own!"

This is more reasonable than you might think. 7 years of power creep have left nearly every class with at least one thing far stronger than it should be, and it will typically be far easier to notice the issues with other classes rather than your own. If Anet would sift through the feedback and find the useful parts of each post they can arrive at the correct conclusion: "nerf every class!"

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Plz get rid of silly support classes and make field combo's more reliant as in pre-hot meta's.

Secondly plz dont make defensive stats compeletely immune to damage (like endure pain 90% damage reduction instead of 100%) Dont add invulns to weapon skills (evades, multiple blocks etc.)

Thirdly make food for Just wvw. Some food (40% endurence increase) is Just super inbalanced for some classes relying heavily on evade frames (mirage, thief, war)

Forthly: get rid of unblockable traits...some skills which are really easy to land are unblockable cc's while others are not easy to land. And Let block be a more active gameplay

Fifth: there's An option on which you can turn off your max range on skillcasting and your character Will automaticly move maxed range of the skills...for classes like mirage/thief this is a cheap way to disengage even easier and for simpele circle classes (scourge and Hammer rev) its a cheap ticket to even easier cast skills (while aoe allready is dominant compared to close or single targetted skill)

Sixth: the rewards for winning a 5v15 is basicly the same as winning 15v15 Both in direct confrontation as capping a tower.

Seventh: downstate is a laugh now because

  1. of the warclaw stomp(Example 5v5 occurs, both get a down and a random players hops in and decided the fight in an instant with no counterplay (4v6 on equal level is hard to win especially if one of the 6 is off cooldown)
  2. Overtuned skills to clear downstate...mi can instantly bring up a dude with 17k base health. Gaisar in rezzing 2 secondsThose 2 examples only help to favor the bigger group

Eight plz no silly pulls..spectral grasp follows you on a wall...and can pull you wierd directions..gs pull on necro as wellThe t1-3 pull of firebrand and mesmer focuspull are Just Wierd (and encourages single target on groupl play

Ninth: try to encourage small group play...not Just either 50v50 or 1v1...i might know how but that's for another time

Tenth: make specs like stealth a trade off...moving slower or give classes more reveal. For instance guard has 2 reveals and they Both on DH, one requires a target and the other is on 40s cooldown and is a trap...other classes have IT even worse

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Your better balance initiative is doomed to fail unless you admit WvW and PvP combat are fundamentally different, and therefore MUST have separate balance teams (who can consult of course, but need to utilise autonomy and split states).

Otherwise you only have 3 bad outcomes:

  1. deference to PvP balance makes WvW combat bad.
  2. deference to WvW balance makes PvP combat bad.
  3. trying to do half n half makes both WvW and PvP combat bad.
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Just my opinion:Game mechanisms:

  • Barrier: Barrier as a mechanism work to well in environments where you can have a lot of barrier sources. It's not much a matter of whether or not the barrier given is to high or not, the way barrier work, you'll just want to more source of it in order to cap barrier on all players. If we want to see zergs being more open to class diversity, this mechanism need some rework.
  • Area denial: This is already an old concern, but it is a resilient one as well. To much damage is packed into area denial skill and range skills, it's to the point that single target skills and melee had to be packed with an offending amont of powercreep. There is a need to rethink area denial into more of a physical blockade (body block) than into a an area that deal so much damage that you don't want to cross it.
  • Stealth: Stealth in itself isn't bad, high damage opening strike via stealth is. I doubt anybody would mind fighting against stealthy profession if it weren't for the fact that some of those profession can burst you to death before you can even realize that you're under attack.
  • Boons & conditions: They are to easy to stack. It has become to easy to selfbuff and, in general, support professions don't lose enough for their ability to support. The same goes for conditions, they are so spammable that in the end the concept of slow ramp up disappear to create this condi burst abomination.
  • Boon hate: Please, favor boon ripping over boon corruption. Boon corruption should be a very tactical ability difficult to access while boon ripping should be the main way to deal with boon. Nowadays, it's the opposite and that's a source of concern and problem in WvW.

WvW polishing:

  • Siege weapon: Restrict the number of siege weapon that can be created in an area. Make it so that you need a minimum distance of 600-900 between 2 allied siege weapons. This is to slow down a bit the speed at which objectives change hands and thus leave some room for defending (because if there are some defenders, there is a fight, not just some mindless karma train).
  • Reward tracks: Add tiers to the reward tracks based on the number of objectives controlled by your world in order to make defending a bit more rewarding. The objectives start to count for the reward track tier after being controled for half an hour straight.
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Forgot to add a couple:

  1. No more spiking from stealth. If you look at a spike it is a grandiose move announcing your taking an opponent out in a most glorious way. You raise your hand in the air saying "Look at me spiking this player" and then you jump up and spike them. The instant a stealthed player presses the "spike" button they should become visible through the complete motion.
  2. Engi spiking while miniaturized needs to go away. They can't be interrupted at all and don't take damage. Spiking in combat should always be a risky endeavor.
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I'm sure I will be repeating some stuff, but here are my opinions anyways. I won't discuss what I'm posting, since this is just what I think and for anet to collect data on player opinions.

Stability:A small suggestion i have is to spread shareable stability to different support classes such as ranger/druid, engi/scrapper (current one is not good as main stab.), ele/tempest so we can make use of more than just a firebrand. The lack of firebrand in our server is due to the fact that firebrand isn't fun for everyone. Other people prefer to play scapper or tempest as support, so it would be helpful if those classes can also be main stability spreader. Druid as a forth option is to finally make them zerg friendly so people don't instant deny them.

Retailation:Rework this one entirely. Some classes such as eles or even holos does a lot of fast damage ticks. All these damage ticks will return to the caster no matter where they are. It's fairly broken and receiving damage can be as high as 9k per second. I literally die in two ticks if I drop my full bomb on a stacking zerg. Sometimes even from 100% life to full death if I hit a lot and all of them have retail.

Stealth:This one needs to be addressed. If this stays strong like now, then make them less available. Veil is the prime example of how stealth should be shared: Short, shareable, but with long CD and requires a bit of coordination with the commander. Everything else is overkill. Stealth should not be stacked with combo fields, similar to why invuls are not stackable with combo fields. Also lower all damage that comes straight from stealth by x % as a 2 second debuff after exiting stealth (this also counts for the first strike). For both zergs and roaming, a stealth bomb can easily kill the other party without effort. Reducing the damage from stealth will give the other party a fighting chance,thus longer and better quality fights.

Boons in general:Similar to blade and soul, you can make each class or build a specialist in a single boon. On top of it, make it shareable for 10 people, so people can start creating groups of 10 instead of 5. This adds a bit more of build plays and rewards organized groups. For example, if I choose weaver, I can share might with the others, If I choose tempest, I can share stability. If I go for herald, I can share fury etc.

Corrupt+damage:Needs to be either tuned down, or make corrupting skills less power efficient. Currently, it does too much damage on top of the corruption it offers. Or reduce it to 5 targets, because I don't get why necro is the only one that can target 10 people. The original 5 target was already deadly, now the 10 target is just plain overkill. I've seen squads that constists of more than 50% necros, which is insane.

Projectiles:Make all "projectile reflect", absorb instead. Decrease the aborption rate by 50%, so half of the projectile will still go through or hit another absorption barrier. That way, zergs can still be safe from projectiles, but requires twice the amount of shields.

Damage vs defense vs healing:Currently, it's either receiving deadly damage or none. I would honest tune down all active defense that reduces damage by 100% to something like 80%. Dodge should be still 100% and cannot be tuned (regenerated) by bufffood or builds. Mirage's dodge should make all their damage to zero while their dodge lasts. Dodging damage should cut all the way down to warriors dodging damage trait. Daredevils dodge uptime is more than it's downtime, which is overkill.While all damage reduction will see a nerf, all damage should also be reduced. Might and power can be directly nerfed to cut down damage across the board.To prevent absolut bunker, also nerf all healing source to make it useful while also not unkillable.

Offtopic: Increase squad size to 60. Get a better server, current lags are horrible even outside of EBG.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:So how about ANET decides what the TTK (Time to Kill) should be in WvW, under various situations, and start from there? Once you folks agree on a picture of what that looks like, you'll know right off what needs fixing.

Otherwise you'll just be tossing out -25% to this or +15% to that and hope it works - which is what I've observed to be the case over the past 20 months I've spent in WvW, and which I'm sure many more seasoned players will confirm has been the case since at least PoF or even HoT.

Thanks for the communication. :+1:

This is very much what I was talking about for the long-term, and one of the things we want to gather feedback on through this discussion. It's less about the 25% or the 15% for any given skill and more about defining what the power level should be, then adjusting all skills and traits to fit into that paradigm.

I made a post yesterday, with links related to TTK that I hope you can look at, prior to reading all of your comments, and now I just want to bring up some concerns based off of things that were discussed.

I’m trying not to niggle over wording, because I know your posts were just kind of an opener, but I want the team to think about (if they already haven’t) this from a player perspective...

  • “Brining power levels down” could easily be interpreted by players as “the devs are going to nerf everything to the ground”. These feelings generally bring a ton of resentment and uproar.
  • When the game launched the difficulty levels across the game were super easy. It was basically, everyone load up zerker gear and destroy. HoT bumped the difficulty levels up, and along with it came stronger profession builds to match up. The goal of HoT profession improvements were to bring more role diversity to the game too, while dialing back the, as Irenio stated, “unhealthy berserker meta”.
  • So power levels have been higher over the course of HoT and PoF compared to the core game, and it’s what the game needed in ways to some degree.
  • Of all the game and profession changes we have had over the course of 7 years, there has been 1 constant... Profession Health. Power levels have gone way up, while profession Health numbers have stayed the same, thus lowering the potential average TTK inside wvw and spvp. This has generated a lot of anger and frustration.
  • I feel like there are players out there, myself included, that would welcome changes to make competitive gameplay more enjoyable. However, I feel there would definitely be backlash if the new direction ends up basically just nerfing “power levels” down without looking at what hasn’t been looked at, or touched, before... And that happens to be, as mentioned earlier, player HEALTH compared to that ever growing “power level”.
  • My original post quoted staff from Camelot Unchained about TTK, words from the Anet team and I’ve offered up some basic suggestions, but I hope the team will first look at improving Health numbers on professions before they decide to “bring power levels down”.
  • And I don’t know if you ever played City of Heroes, but the devs of that game went nerfing stuff inside pvp with the infamous “Issue 13” patch. Those changes basically “killed” zone and arena pvp in that game, and pvpers felt completely betrayed and screwed over. I know the Paragon team had good intentions, and couldn’t foresee the outcome of those changes, but nerfing things down isn’t always the right answer. Especially when other options and improvements may exist... So far team Anet hasn’t touched Health for the equation inside wvw and spvp, so my suggestion is to start improvements with that and work from there to tackle issues that arise.

    Ty for your time!

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I think servers and such just be disbanded and remove everything except smc and just have one giant free for all and have a big giant pve chest with a gazillion gold in it and if anyone can get to it then win and then reset the game once that happens. Yep that solves everyone's problems.

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There seems to be a lot of calls to remove the damage one capable of in a single attack. That all well and good but can not happen in a vacuum. Out of the gate certain classes have 8000 more health than others. The professions with the lower health pool HAVE to spike more damage or they can never win a given matchup. This would then have to be addressed via more ways for that smaller health pool person to mitigate damage be it dodges/blocks invulns and stealth and this would be followed up with complaints they have too many dodges blocks invulns or stealth. The alternative is of course to normalize the health pool across the board.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"arenta.2953" said:
  1. walls in WvW are NOT valuable to the defender. due to the range and damage of aoe spam, going on the wall is death. the only value a wall provides is slowing the enemy to give you time to get to the structure. compare this to when game came out, where AoE was alot lower dmg wise, and the only concern you had for being on wall was a scorpion wire. back then walls provided defenders with an advantage of seeing the enemy, longer range(bows), and able to back out at any time. making walls have a use to the defender would be nice for actually using them.

    So what, the zerker necro staff did not exist on release? Not to mention you could barely be near walls due to certain pre-balance
    arrowcarts
    .

Walls have a use and you stated it perfectly - its there to delay the enemy. Its there so that scouts can call out and so that players can arrive and fight each other. This is the core gameplay of WvW. When you try to hinder that... Well we already know what happens, because it
DID
happen. It slows WvW to a crawl and it forced Anet to rebalance siege costs and objective strength just to keep the gameplay going. If anything siege is
still lacking
, such as trebs being to costly in supply for their damage and rate of fire compared to catapults.

This thread really makes me fear for the future of WvW but I guess it cant get much worse.

are you really comparing zerker staff, to scourge? thats like comparing a nerf gun to an actual gun in terms of dmg.

even if we ignore the massive dmg difference, staff marks pop on contact, and don't have pulses. so first person to go in gets hit, but no one behind them does. compare that to scourge. Even with wells, zerker staff is of no note compared to condi scourge.

and how often did attackers build arrow carts, defenders did, an they still do. cause you can't exactly go to the edge of a wall now without being nuked.

heres a video, showing how much less AoE spam there was, as back then the only stuff you worried about 1 shotting you was a backstab from a thief. aka positioning.

so you'd have alot more single target skills. and defenders could actually last a while. sieges like this could actually take hours as both sides fought. rather than the absurd scourge zerg wiping you see now.

now, aoe spam can wipe out entire zergs. less skill more spam.....

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I just want support for the support classes. Equal pay ...err, equal rights ... err, um ... oh yeah! Equal XP, Pips, etc. Support your Support Classes ... because without them, well, y'all will die a lot more than you already do! =) We, the support class players (true support class players, not to be mixed up with dpsers who slot SYG :p ), get about half of the kills and, hence, half of the kill xp, pips, ranks, etc as dps. :s We only get what we get from things like retal, luck, attacks with our 1000 power level and 0% crit chance attacks. Yet, we are demanded to provide stability, cleanses, protection, might, everything that will aid our comrades in the fight to protect against and conquer evil! And we do so, willingly and with pride. Our comrades are grateful. =) Our enemies are hateful. Our developers are forgetful. They have forgotten to support the support classes. We. Are. Sad. :'(

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I really like what everyone said :D

Basically, guildwars 2 is made like maya (player might not all know but I'm sure anet dev will) is, layer of adding feature that doesn't work together and adding even more layer to fix the issues the new features created instead of fixing the core of the problem.

I personnally like conditions as control of the player more than burst damage. I mean confusion is supposed to make the opponent not attack you or he's getting punished, torment is don't move or get punished, rest are more obvious.But they became they too overpowered with the up of their damage and the fact you only need one statistique to damage against 3 for direct damage.

You added more boons to counter those condis and then you added even more boon rip and boon conversion to counter the counter of condis. So we still had a condis problem. You then added some cleans and boon machine to counter the condis from the conversion of boon that were created to counter the condis.

See as guys said before, how complicate it gets x)

The fact you decided to have real roles also created some issue. Why would we use fields and combo if we have a class giving direct boons and direct heals? And a lot of them? So people stopped playing with combos cause it's easier to just have people do it directly by themself without communications.In the same line, the aoe spam got increased soooooo much than you can't even see the aoe you'd like to combo in anyway xD

4 stats gears are an issue as well, you wanna gice too much. You didn't even fibished creating all the 3 stats combination possible before doing that :/ only 3 stats relevant nowadays is berserker and mostly in pve :(

Same for the way traits works (I know you won't come.back on it but I still wanna say it). Before the spec systeme, we couldn't fill 3 full lines. We had to make choice! Not only wich line to take as right now but wich one we wanted full or what we needed to sacrifice to get that one interesting traits. I know some spec were broken at that time but would have been better to move those traits instead of giving us more traits but only 3 possible lines a the same time. For exemple, as ele, I was sacrifying a lot of my survivability becaude I love air traits. So I wasn't taking water or only the first traits. With the change, I didn't had to chose anymore!

Another thing that has nothing to do this all this but feels like an issue to me and was actually something people asked for is ppk. It s really great to be rewarded for our kills but it's actually too strong and it cause 2 kind of problems:

  • «fighting people» doesn't give a mind at all at the structure anymore, or almost.
  • PPT people go hiding or stops fighting if they lost more than 2 fights in a row because they're actually losing points by dying.
  • No one are defending keeps to death until the ennemies gets bored anymore because again, they lose points to save a keep they could get back really fast if they just abandon and wait a 15 minutes that the ennemies go away.

Most people doesn't give a mind about the match up, I agree with that, the only thibg I care is to get the server I wanna have in front of me next week. But it kinda broke the wvw to be really honest. Makes me sad, makes me leave the game mode, not to say the game at all.

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