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Let's Talk About PvP Balance


Cal Cohen.2358

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I appreciate the developers starting a conversation and listening to the community. Before it could seem like shouting in an empty box and this is a welcome change. My thoughts on the current pvp meta will be split in a class by class basis.

Ele:Weaver- Fighting a weaver can be frustrating due to its high re-sustain and evade uptime. While dishing out a lot of damage. However, I feel like nerfing the evade uptime from weaver should come with a buff for either the weavers condipool wich is very low making it practically useless against classes with frequent cleanses or the weavers mobility. A lot of mobility sidenoder can be problematic due to its easily being out rotated and for that reason forced to stay on the point.

Tempest- I really like that tempest can switch between fire, earth and air. to make aura sharing either heavy on the condi cleanse, high protection uptime or fury. However, With the relatively low healing value and firebrand often being able to do ALL of the above it falls short. I do like the build choices tempest has but I do feel like it should compete. Maybe by increasing the effectiveness of aura's?

Mesmer:mirage- The biggest problem with mirage is that you can't effectively cleave the clones. making it 4 heavy-hitting characters with high evade uptime. My change would be simple: make infinite horizon only cast the ambush skill on clones and don't give them the evade.

Necromancer:Scourge- The shade change made scourges really weak in the current meta. Which is a shame since they did provide a welcome counter to boon spam. While their offensives are hardly touched they have become a very easy target. Shades skills will still spawn on the necro if they don't have any shades on the field so my solution is simple. Give the scourge a skill to destroy their own shades.

Ranger:pets- One of the strongest things in the game is CC and pets having a passive cc that the ranger has no control over ads randomness that can be very frustrating. I feel like pets shouldn't be playmakers without the direction of the ranger. In my opinion, all heavy cc's should be either removed from the pets or cast by the ranger.

Thief:Daredevil- This is the worst outlier in the current meta- with 2 very toxic builds. the change to deadly arts giving thiefs free poison on hits made a place for this horrifying playstyle. The condipool is way too big and the thief is never forced to burst any initiative for damage, making the strongest offensive playstyle of thief also the most defensive and passive. I would remove the free poison on damage and force the thief to do damage in non-evade frames. Staffbunker thief just doesn't die due to nearly infinite dodge frames. Perhaps increase initiative of dodge abilities from staff.

engineer:holosmith: Primelight beam is a very frustrating skill to stop. Either u dodge or you interrupt the engineer. It's fine that it's an unblockable skill. However, tracking is more than unnecessary. I feel like moving behind the engineer should stop you from getting damaged, however, the aggressive tracking won't let you escape. Aside from that the quickness uptime is perhaps too high skills otherwise with very good tells harder to dodge.

Warrior:tactics: mostly fine but the 50% dmg to barriers removes classes from the game. Perhaps make the damage buff a % of the barrier the player has (20% of health = 20%buff) which scales nicely to the 50% @ max barrier. being able to get Oneshot because I have 300 barrier is very unhealthy and removes scourge weaver and scrapper, already weak classes completely from any game with a tactics warrior.

Rev:Renegade-The class can only do damage when it's not being attacked, and since revenant doesn't offer a lot of ways to stay at range. Any aggressed renegade is effectively useless till they die.

Guard:Fine in my opinion.

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@Crab Fear.1624 said :Mirage Cloak should not work if a normal dodge would not work, unless they take EM. EM does not need 6 seconds of exhaustion, maybe 3 seconds of when dodging while knocked down, stunned, or any cc that would not allow dodges, but not for cc that would allow dodges. (still breaks stun), but otherwise don't change how cloak works, such as using while performing other actions.Again, did you see a core mesmer build without stealth who can perform ? Because a mirage without his current mirage cloak is basically that.Even with PU on core, we can see on shadow vid that he got catch with random CC/aoe.I mean I can listen to all suggestion but when you take a step back, it will just make a class unplayable.

@Aza.2105 said :Mirage is too much, excessive screen clutter, countless clones, evades, dodge, blocks and over all mitigation is too persistent. Its also one of the only classes were the player has to mouse target because cycling through all the clones is a nightmare.Ok for visual clutter even if it's relative view.It has low evades uptime compared to other meta class considering vigor uptime, endurance regeneration and evade on weapon, stop with this false information please.All pro player select target by mouse because they have to be able to rupt key skill on other target very fast : for example you focus a necro and you want to rupt a FB signet.

@sinject.4607 said :Nope. The only posts here defending mirage are from mesmer players such as yourself, while all three pages have a variety of players mentioning condition mirage as broken and even the Devs themselves have echoed some of my thoughts on the build here in this thread.Give me stat arguments, damage data and CD, not subjective view then we can start a discussion.Variety of player = player who want to play the game with a coffee in one hand like always and who never play mesmer which didn't make their personnal feeling more impactfull than real data.

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@"Loki.1763" said:Taken a long break from spvp, and don't believe there is anything I can say that hasn't already been said. BUT.....

The one thing I would ask for is to stop dropping balance patch mid season. You get 8 weeks of seasonal play to determine balance changes needed. Balance patch should drop immediately at end of season, to allow players time to muck about & familiarise with new builds. It also provides a two-week window to wind back any changes if necessary.

^ This.

Even if Arenanet has the patch work ready to go mid season, I think they should wait to give it to us when the season ends. Two things I have to add here:

  1. It's actually quite frustrating to have to readapt to fresh patch meta changes mid season. This is especially true for the people who log in to find out that their class was one of the ones that received huge nerfs! It can often feel like "You were robbed of good placement that season." Patches really should happen at the end of seasons.
  2. A patch dropping at the end of the season would give us something to do during off season. Good incentive to stay & play for the purposes of learning the new patch, and general experimentation with what it offers. If anything, just a good timeframe of leniency to readapt before the next season. I think that's fair.
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@sinject.4607 said:

@sinject.4607 said:As a deadeye player this is my perspective:
Condi mirage is the most overpowered build in the game by far.
The core design of multi-casting in mesmer (weapon/utils/shatters/clones) allows for a certain persistent offensive pressure that just works too well with condition damage; this is the same reason people complain about condition thief despite this only being true to a lesser extent with daredevil. This offensive pressure combined with the amount of defensive uptime condition mirage can manage essentially leaves it with no vulnerability windows and no major weaknesses.
  • You can't kite them well if at all because of their mobility in addition to bodyblocking from clones and reflects.
  • You can't offensively pressure them via melee because most of their damage mitigation doesn't occupy their casting queue, leaving them free to weapon attack and use utilities to punish you.
  • You can't reliably CC them because of access to stability/stunbreaks/mirage cloak evade and because
    MOST OF THEIR INVULN ANIMATIONS DONT PROPERLY RENDER. ESPECIALLY OUT OF STEALTH.
    This seems to be partly caused when they clone spam as the rendering engine just seemingly gives up with the sudden visual clutter.
  • You can't really avoid their damage because the core design of condition damage/application when combined with the multi-cast pressure of mirage means that evading even their condi burst you will probably lose half your health from passive clone application followed by autoattacks and AoE. Another issue being the efficacy of AI casters- clones are way too fast and way too persistently perfect in their attacks and I think if anything this speaks to overtly easy design of condition damage as I've never had issue with power mesmer/chrono/mirage clones.Sadly this is not what streams show.Isn't just that your build is hardcountered ? I can see some melee deadeye builds who can manage well against mirage.I mean I don't post an op post everytime a thief kill me on power mesmer/mirage while it hardcounter it since release.About the "CC imune" : just count the 2 evade then CC burst if I can win on a powermirage versus condimirage it's because condimirage have a really slow setup before damage start to hurt and very visible animations on ambush.It's good in a game to have strength and weakness over differents situations.

Nope. The only posts here defending mirage are from mesmer players such as yourself, while all three pages have a variety of players mentioning condition mirage as broken and even the Devs themselves have echoed some of my thoughts on the build here in this thread.

So let me get this strait, if players argue and discuss the issues with mirage, they are wrong in defending the class and right in wanting it toned down.

Yet if the same players start arguing about thief, everyone arguing that thief might have some issues and need some toning down is wrong? You literally mentioned that every one else is wrong about thief, while writing about how condi thief is not overpowered. How are you not biased yourself? :o

I mean I get being in favor of balance changes for another class, but at least have the common decency to not write about your own class while complaining about other players bias. That's hypocritical. I'm quite sure the general consent is that condi thief is overperforming, just like the general consent is that condi mirage is overpowerforming. If we apply a neutral and unbiased standard accross both classes from a majority of comments in this thread, they both need adjusting downward.

As far as the devs mentioning things, they also mention that they want condi thief adjusted (as did many players). Does that make your opinion and argument for the thief class void? Please no double standards.

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Engi needs an update to his severely outdated traits and skills.Skills:

  • Turrets are bad - healing is the only good one (seems staple skill of Engi to me).
  • Kits are outdated - Med Kit is ok. Flamethrower and Elixir has few fine abilities - minor tweaks would do the job. Mortar, Toolkit, Bomb and Granade kits are simply outdated. Feels bad to use these. Complete rework would be nice (maybe little less than complete rework for the Mortar).
  • Throw mine, Slick shoes, Utility Goggles, Elixir R, Supply Crate(Elite) - I doubt a single person uses any of these in PvP and is not trying to loose on purpose.
  • Pistol skills - Feels weak and confusing to use. Is it close range? Is it long range? Simply feels outdated.

Trait lines:

  • I won't get into details. Every Core trait feels clunky and outdated. Please rework it the way you feel, but make it compliant. Make it up to date.

Scrapper:

  • Bruiser'ish spec, but feels rather squishy. Bulwark Gyro is a must-have to be able to survive in PvP.
  • I'm not a fan of Impact Savant at all. Maybe make it pickable trait rather than built-in. It lacks of synergy with Conditions makes whole Scrapper line Power-attached. Also Hammer is the only viable weapon.
  • Lots of superspeed, but for what? I feel like there is not enough synergy with Superspeed to give Scrapper amout it gets.
  • Functional Gyro dies really often. Feels weird to use it, but I see it as cool mechanic personally.
  • Whole traitline seems lackluster to me - there is nothing staple, nothing really cool there.
  • Conditions kills Scrapper whatever he does. Impossible to get enough cleanse and still be revelant in other aspects.

Holosmith:Overall on the strong side as the only Engi build.Nerf should happen, but it should not influence Core Engi at all (in its current state).Best options to nerf:

  • Heat Therapy
  • Prism Light Beam (so it reveals user from stealth when used)
  • Holo Leap (slight cd increase)
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My thoughts.

Mesmer infinite horizon is crazy. I would remove ambush attacks from clones. While it’s very cool as a trait it’s just too damn strong and allows ridiculous burst and condi application. Mirror cloak on clones without allowing ambush attacks still keeps them alive so is still useful.

Rampage as a skill is just too much. Remove the stability from it which means builds need to provide stab from other sources. Means you can control the warrior/engineer with cc more easily to avoid their attack. Also remove the daze from the 1.

Make changes to theif short bow 5. It is just too much mobility and also limits build diversity as that one skill makes shortbow just too good as a weapon swap to ignore.

Change toss elixir S to something other than stealth. Holosmith just should not have such easy access to group stealth. Also reduce the damage on the holoforge 1 chain in pvp. Holo has too much damage without any investment in damage traits or utilities.

Reduce burn base damage and scaling in pvp as it’s just too easy to get many burn stacks for some builds creating very high ticks unless you cleanse fast.

Cap might stacks overall to 10 in pvp. This would bring down overall burst from many builds.

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I really think this is the most important general point - fundamentally different modes, have different combat considerations and require separate autonomous balance teams. PvP is not the same as WvW - anyone who thinks 1 team should be doing both competitive modes has not understood the game well enough to be making balance decisions.

The better balance initiative is doomed to fail unless Anet admits WvW and PvP combat (also PvE as Anet have finally admitted after like 7 years in) are fundamentally different, and therefore Anet MUST have separate balance teams (who can consult of course, but need to utilise autonomy and split states).

Using 1 team to balance both PvP and WvW together only gives 3 bad outcomes:

  1. deference to PvP balance makes WvW combat bad.
  2. deference to WvW balance makes PvP combat bad.
  3. trying to do half n half makes both WvW and PvP combat bad.
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I look at this sad ..Time to separate "community’s passion on balance" and for my opinion is trolling notes "prease nerf holo/..".I always try play only wiht top meta overpowered builds/class. So I read "please nerf X with wepon Y", take it, use, setup, but no some great profit. Best class WAS mesmer, but it is nerfed long time ago .. (Currently now we not have some overpowered classes.

To find some op or nerfed class more better use some pattern like "class/build played count win rate some magic". And use this pattern only for some input, but not as direct suggestion.

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@Kalan.9705 said:I really think this is the most important general point - fundamentally different modes, have different combat considerations and require separate autonomous balance teams. PvP is not the same as WvW - anyone who thinks 1 team should be doing both competitive modes has not understood the game well enough to be making balance decisions.

The better balance initiative is doomed to fail unless Anet admits WvW and PvP combat (also PvE as Anet have finally admitted after like 7 years in) are fundamentally different, and therefore Anet MUST have separate balance teams (who can consult of course, but need to utilise autonomy and split states).

Using 1 team to balance both PvP and WvW together only gives 3 bad outcomes:

  1. deference to PvP balance makes WvW combat bad.
  2. deference to WvW balance makes PvP combat bad.
  3. trying to do half n half makes both WvW and PvP combat bad.

To be honest i say keep pvp and wvw together till they do the culling over everyone after all the nerfs are in place then decide if wvw and pvp need to also be split apart. It makes the most since as they can bring both game modes down (which needs to happen no matter how you spin it) at the same time before adjusting them separately

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@sinject.4607 said:As a deadeye player this is my perspective:
Condi mirage is the most overpowered build in the game by far.
The core design of multi-casting in mesmer (weapon/utils/shatters/clones) allows for a certain persistent offensive pressure that just works too well with condition damage; this is the same reason people complain about condition thief despite this only being true to a lesser extent with daredevil. This offensive pressure combined with the amount of defensive uptime condition mirage can manage essentially leaves it with no vulnerability windows and no major weaknesses.
  • You can't kite them well if at all because of their mobility in addition to bodyblocking from clones and reflects.
  • You can't offensively pressure them via melee because most of their damage mitigation doesn't occupy their casting queue, leaving them free to weapon attack and use utilities to punish you.
  • You can't reliably CC them because of access to stability/stunbreaks/mirage cloak evade and because
    MOST OF THEIR INVULN ANIMATIONS DONT PROPERLY RENDER. ESPECIALLY OUT OF STEALTH.
    This seems to be partly caused when they clone spam as the rendering engine just seemingly gives up with the sudden visual clutter.
  • You can't really avoid their damage because the core design of condition damage/application when combined with the multi-cast pressure of mirage means that evading even their condi burst you will probably lose half your health from passive clone application followed by autoattacks and AoE. Another issue being the efficacy of AI casters- clones are way too fast and way too persistently perfect in their attacks and I think if anything this speaks to overtly easy design of condition damage as I've never had issue with power mesmer/chrono/mirage clones.Sadly this is not what streams show.Isn't just that your build is hardcountered ? I can see some melee deadeye builds who can manage well against mirage.I mean I don't post an op post everytime a thief kill me on power mesmer/mirage while it hardcounter it since release.About the "CC imune" : just count the 2 evade then CC burst if I can win on a powermirage versus condimirage it's because condimirage have a really slow setup before damage start to hurt and very visible animations on ambush.It's good in a game to have strength and weakness over differents situations.

Nope. The only posts here defending mirage are from mesmer players such as yourself, while all three pages have a variety of players mentioning condition mirage as broken and even the Devs themselves have echoed some of my thoughts on the build here in this thread.

So let me get this strait, if players argue and discuss the issues with mirage, they are wrong in defending the class and right in wanting it toned down.

Yet if the same players start arguing about thief, everyone arguing that thief might have some issues and need some toning down is wrong? You literally mentioned that every one else is wrong about thief, while writing about how condi thief is not overpowered. How are you not biased yourself? :o

I mean I get being in favor of balance changes for another class, but at least have the common decency to not write about your own class while complaining about other players bias. That's hypocritical. I'm quite sure the general consent is that condi thief is overperforming, just like the general consent is that condi mirage is overpowerforming. If we apply a neutral and unbiased standard accross both classes from a majority of comments in this thread, they both need adjusting downward.

As far as the devs mentioning things, they also mention that they want condi thief adjusted (as did many players). Does that make your opinion and argument for the thief class void? Please no double standards.

You missed his entire point really. Its not a matter of defending it or anyone defending a class.

Basically in a nutshell he said if a class or elite spec, trait, skill, feature of the class is considered good right now then its stronger than they want it to be so yes expect mirage/mesmer nerfs, expect theif nerfs, expect soul beast/ranger nerfs, expect reaper nerfs, expect weaver/ele nerfs, expect firebrand/guardian nerfs, expect holo nerfs, Rev? Expect nerfs. As he put the general direction is down for just about everyone if you are arguing for something that someone thinks is too strong expect it to get culled down to a more respectable level. Even I dont want to lose my quickness on reaper (feels clunky slow without it) but i know if these patches get done right there is no way thats going to remain on the RO trait. (i hope they just speed up the base reaper attacks but not to quickness levels)

Mirage still has no real trade off either so its no surprise people hate it just as much as holo who also has a very minimal tradeoff. Both have great sustain via defensive tools and tons of offensive pressure thats far too unhealthy for the game.

This is not about who should be nerfed its about how much certain aspects that exist in the game today should be nerfed considering condi application is a big target on their list its safe to say mirage will see quite a few changes especially to the commonly used weapons, scepter/ staff. We will also see 1 shot builds likely become lesser bursting builds with much more risk ideally rev, holo, guardian etc are probably going to lose alot of up front burst damage so they wont be 1 shotting people even more so if someone invest in toughness which is currently almost invalid in the game due to how much dps can come out of a single person let alone a team of 5.

The fact that mirage is a hot topic means its a problem and its one of the bigger problems that needs to be looked at sooner rather than later. Dont worry though Holo is in the same boat with you along with several other things like condi thief and warriors who use rampage etc.

Overall im going to be glad to see everyone get dropped down. Pretty much think of what ever spec is not used very much due to how under powered it is... core necro, core rev, core engi, etc. Now think about everything being brought back down to that standard possibly pre HoT. That would be good for the game right now a major rework of everything has been long tuned. Im personally sick and tired of builds doing more than the player and the player being ego boosted because they know they are running a crazy build with limited counters. Lets reset, refresh, and restart how metas are built for pvp. This is a chance to actually make the game blanced and fun again instead of going "ughh..." when you see a certain thing or team comp. Its also a good chance to make professions, and other options that are not effective or struggling to be effective viable again.

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you need start with the basics mechanics then you start nerfing every class:

Evade frames:

Evade on hit is very toxic and unskillful mechanic, evading while hitting should be removed or give it only for some specific very low dmg skills.if you want a skillful game you need to give evade only for players that know when to use it not spam it forever, players need to know when to dodge/block and not random spam it.

Example of toxic unskillful evades: death bloosom (thief), whirlwind attack ( warrior)Example of skillful evades: twiste of fate (weaver), quickshot(ranger), phase retreat(mesmer)

Blocks are an evade mechanic but they are skillful

Stability:

Stability boons are good but should give only one stack per skill slot, some skills give like 5-10 stacks of it, so they become unstoppable and the classes that has it are the ones with one shot potential so you can't stop them a.k.a holos/warriors/rangersremove stability stacking from some skills buff the time up, give like protection/stability then a stun breaker, not 5 stacks of stability, stack of stability should be only for using more than one skill or receiving from another character.

CC:knock downs/stuns need to have a lower duration, some knock downs can get you on the ground for 3 whole seconds, that's enough to some classes kill you before you can even react, even if you are supposed to have a stunbreaker you should not die because you get hit by it.

Damage on classes that has infinite cc:

A class that has alot of cc should not be allowed to have high damageDamage need to be scaled down on some power classes, all you need to do is lower the coeficient from power, no matter how much of toughness you have you going to be "one shotted " after an stunlock.

Might is not the problem, Damage of some power classes are the big problem, they scale too well with power so when they get Might they start one shoting people, the problem is the power scaling of some skills, some skills can scale too high with power and on top of that they can stun lock you to death, A.k.a Holos/warriors.

holos and warriors can stunlock you and on top of that you going to die in 2s because of their damage potential, unless you have a stunbreaker and one teleport skill.some skills need their coeficient from power tunned down, 50 power can turn into 500 damage on your head.just give skills lower coeficient from power like ranger shortbow has, not so lower though.**

Balance stats:

stats are not very balanced, a perfect balance should be when a player pick only toughness and the other pick only power and when they fight each other they should die at same time, then the player skill factor will influence here, when a player know how to dodge, when to block, when to cctoughness now is useful but not as useful as power, like i said before no matter how much toughness you have you going to die in 2 hits because power scale is too high on some weapons.how to fix toughness? just give toughness bonus more stats, if the amulet give 1200 toughness change it 2000~2400...so you can block the powercreep

also, all classes need to be able to have a fair fight vs any other class, classes need to change only the playstyle

Boons need to be class specific:unless it's a support class that should have all kind of boons sharing

like alacracy is only for chrono/rev/ren

quickness should be only for chrono and fb/thiefs/rangersprotection should be only for warriors/guardians/scrappersmight should be only for elemental/warriors/reapers

Condi clear need to be removed from dodge rollswarriors/holos dodge rolls, yeah this break condi classes just because some classes can just dodge roll and negate all the damage

Condi is not a problem!!

condi is not a problem the problem is how some classes stack it.

Thief/dd can stack all kind of condi just for dodging or teleporting to you then running away and you are dead, you can't react and can't attack back, poison from thiefs need to do way less damage also they need to stack less condi type so you can clean better, just give a trait for their poison -50% less healing and lower their damage from poison by half.

mirage can use ambush from clones it's like 3 players attacking you, just remove ambush from clones.

Now you can start nerfing/buffing some classes

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Preface and problem statement

I have played GW2 since beta and got hooked by your original game design philosophies. For years I was looking for MMO combat that didn't suck, and GW2 looked like it was going to deliver on it. I hyped up my guild, my friends -- anyone who would listen. GW2 was going to change MMOs. And you did. Mostly.

From my perspective, I don't think the competitive state of GW2 (or lack there of) can be solved with numbers alone. I'm not going to assert to you that I'm a game designer or know better. While yes I try to think critically through problems and have a lot of experience in competitive games -- fighting games, MOBAs, MMOs, etc. -- I am no where near an "expert". My biggest gripe with this is the design pillars set out early on were never fully realized. Even from the early days of GW2, you always had to watch your UI quite a bit. Condi builds are the biggest offender of this, IMO. Conditions have always had a way to be bursty, but it has only ramped up over the years. Beyond that, power builds saw stealth nerfs from things getting stun breaks on every skill known to mankind.

Pre-HOT you could run a stun build on Warrior and reliably bait both dodge rolls, maybe the one stun break they had, and go to town with Bull Charge + Hammer into something like Axe 5. As the game continues to chug along skills continue to get more powerful, more overloaded, and ultimately more polarizing. A lot of the recent balance changes are good, but that isn't addressing the cause of it. I made a really detailed post on reddit (sorry if I shouldn't link this here) some time ago about it. The key points I tried to make:

  • Lots of visual noise and unclear mechanics (e.g. dying from conditions sucks, multiple fields down and use a finisher)
  • Lack of mechanical counter play vs build counter play (e.g. you have to run condi removal)
  • Conditions are just numbers, not control (think WildStar where a lot of conditions affect how you control your character, not just DOTs

Conditions as a first-class citizen for damage are a plague upon competitive play. The idea of rotting someone down is fine, but you should have to play a keep away game, rot them down, and "control" the situation -- not just hit a condition burst and win against newer players because they either: don't know what to look for, or don't run the correct build to solve it. This is not to assert that the new player in this case needing to learn something is bad. It's that they will look at their death recap and see "40k+ damage from bleeding, 20k+ from poison" etc and be left wondering "what the heck?" It's a really bad new player experience and something I've seen so many people leave the game over.

Me pretending I'm a game designer

In my ideal world, we make systemic changes and not just number tweaks or skill reworks -- the current way GW2 thinks about itself is unsustainable. Originally it was said that the player should "watch their screen more than their UI" and that is definitely not the reality today. Mind you, I am not claiming to have all the answers, but I do believe a revamp of condis and visual clarity would go a long way. This is my "wish list" if I had one:

  • Remove all passive condi procs in the game, specifically from traits
  • Remove traits that remove Burning/Chilled on dodge roll -- make that base line
  • Take away so many passive stun break or "every 30sec absorb one stun" things in the game -- you want action combat, not "passive procs once every 30sec" combat
  • Finishers used in multiple fields should trigger every field

The big three conditions that I see as problematic:

  • Burning -- Increase damage per tick. Reduce number of skills that apply and make them highly visual (think Guardian Torch). Dodging removes ALL STACKS of burning (Mechanical counter play, forcing dodge rolls, etc).
  • Confusion -- This skill is great except for the lack of mechanical counter play. I would like every class to be able to use their first weapon ability without suffering damage, so that way you can still auto attack. Again, mechanical outplay -- You see purple on your character and it limits what you can do but doesn't force you into a condi cleanse build.
  • Poison -- Reduce DOT. Increase healing reduction to 50-66%~. The idea is that you are a team targeter (think Pain Gun medic from Global Agenda). You can still rot someone out with this and the balance that should be over an EXTENDED encounter you rot them down. Not somehow applying 10384108 stacks of poison and bursting.

Nit picky but IMO...

  • Bleeding -- Leave largely alone. I don't think having a DOT is bad, but it's insane to me that someone can take so much bleeding for free. If this is the only source of "passive DOT damage", it's not that bad. You just get a feel for what builds do sustained damage (Sword/Sword Warrior) vs burst (Thief). An idea I would love to see if getting to full health removing all stacks of bleeding. Lets you counter play with your healing skill, but I feel like I'm already asking the world.
  • Chilled -- IMO this is still largely fine. I would love dodge rolling to remove it and removing the damage element associated with this.
  • Torment -- Remove damage while not moving. Increase damage while moving. Reduce duration. Moving increases duration or refreshes in some way. Visual effect is probably fine.
  • Weakness -- Better visual queue.

This is from another post on reddit that I made. And sorry if a lot of this is not helpful, but I desperately want to play GW2. Every time I log in I'm met with terrible PvB (player vs bag) of extrinsic rewards that I just don't care about, wade through all of that, then get into a match where I might die to someone just spamming the new meta condi build because I'm trying something new out that maybe lacks a bit of condi clear, or I'm not back up to speed on watching my debuffs. Mind you, I think it's hyperbolic how much you have to watch your UI -- and the better you get at the game the less you look at it.

TL;DR

I love GW2. I have loved this game from the first blog post I read about it before ever having played. Constant WvW, great combat, and incredibly risky stuff (living world season 1, destroying your main city, etc). When ArenaNet is at its best, it's untouchable and I will buy every product you ever make. But it's really disheartening to look back at the design philosophy and compare it to today. We used to have really challenging dungeons that gave unique rewards. Now the best skins are locked behind gems and vapid grinds out in the open world. All of the feedback I see on reddit/forums seems to be players being complacent in this. Want to farm a legendary? No no, don't go farm the T6 mat you need. Because there is no way to do that. Go turn your brain off and farm Silverwaste for the best gold value per hour, then translate that into materials (showing my GW2 age a bit).

It's this kind of mind set that that has leaked into PvP. So many players want to turn their brain off and that is just unacceptable for WvW/PvP. If y'all want to cave to the farmers in PvE/Fractals/Open world, whatever. But if we have a ghost of a chance to take back competitive game modes, I would love to see that happen. I would easily play GW2 every day if the pvp was great again.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@sinject.4607 said:As a deadeye player this is my perspective:
Condi mirage is the most overpowered build in the game by far.
The core design of multi-casting in mesmer (weapon/utils/shatters/clones) allows for a certain persistent offensive pressure that just works too well with condition damage; this is the same reason people complain about condition thief despite this only being true to a lesser extent with daredevil. This offensive pressure combined with the amount of defensive uptime condition mirage can manage essentially leaves it with no vulnerability windows and no major weaknesses.
  • You can't kite them well if at all because of their mobility in addition to bodyblocking from clones and reflects.
  • You can't offensively pressure them via melee because most of their damage mitigation doesn't occupy their casting queue, leaving them free to weapon attack and use utilities to punish you.
  • You can't reliably CC them because of access to stability/stunbreaks/mirage cloak evade and because
    MOST OF THEIR INVULN ANIMATIONS DONT PROPERLY RENDER. ESPECIALLY OUT OF STEALTH.
    This seems to be partly caused when they clone spam as the rendering engine just seemingly gives up with the sudden visual clutter.
  • You can't really avoid their damage because the core design of condition damage/application when combined with the multi-cast pressure of mirage means that evading even their condi burst you will probably lose half your health from passive clone application followed by autoattacks and AoE. Another issue being the efficacy of AI casters- clones are way too fast and way too persistently perfect in their attacks and I think if anything this speaks to overtly easy design of condition damage as I've never had issue with power mesmer/chrono/mirage clones.Sadly this is not what streams show.Isn't just that your build is hardcountered ? I can see some melee deadeye builds who can manage well against mirage.I mean I don't post an op post everytime a thief kill me on power mesmer/mirage while it hardcounter it since release.About the "CC imune" : just count the 2 evade then CC burst if I can win on a powermirage versus condimirage it's because condimirage have a really slow setup before damage start to hurt and very visible animations on ambush.It's good in a game to have strength and weakness over differents situations.

Nope. The only posts here defending mirage are from mesmer players such as yourself, while all three pages have a variety of players mentioning condition mirage as broken and even the Devs themselves have echoed some of my thoughts on the build here in this thread.

So let me get this strait, if players argue and discuss the issues with mirage, they are wrong in defending the class and right in wanting it toned down.

Yet if the same players start arguing about thief, everyone arguing that thief might have some issues and need some toning down is wrong? You literally mentioned that every one else is wrong about thief, while writing about how condi thief is not overpowered. How are you not biased yourself? :o

I mean I get being in favor of balance changes for another class, but at least have the common decency to not write about your own class while complaining about other players bias. That's hypocritical. I'm quite sure the general consent is that condi thief is overperforming, just like the general consent is that condi mirage is overpowerforming. If we apply a neutral and unbiased standard accross both classes from a majority of comments in this thread, they both need adjusting downward.

As far as the devs mentioning things, they also mention that they want condi thief adjusted (as did many players). Does that make your opinion and argument for the thief class void? Please no double standards.

You missed his entire point really. Its not a matter of defending it or anyone defending a class.

I fully understand that. I guess you missed his entire second part of his first post (before this one) in which he was defending thief and condi thief.

Which is the exact thing he is complaining about when it comes to mirage players: subjective favorism and arguments.

I have no problem with having classes adjusted, I simply dislike players telling others they are biased, while they themselves go on explaining how their class is free from issues (his entire first post was about how overpowered mirage is and how fine thief). It comes accross as very double standard.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@sinject.4607 said:As a deadeye player this is my perspective:
Condi mirage is the most overpowered build in the game by far.
The core design of multi-casting in mesmer (weapon/utils/shatters/clones) allows for a certain persistent offensive pressure that just works too well with condition damage; this is the same reason people complain about condition thief despite this only being true to a lesser extent with daredevil. This offensive pressure combined with the amount of defensive uptime condition mirage can manage essentially leaves it with no vulnerability windows and no major weaknesses.
  • You can't kite them well if at all because of their mobility in addition to bodyblocking from clones and reflects.
  • You can't offensively pressure them via melee because most of their damage mitigation doesn't occupy their casting queue, leaving them free to weapon attack and use utilities to punish you.
  • You can't reliably CC them because of access to stability/stunbreaks/mirage cloak evade and because
    MOST OF THEIR INVULN ANIMATIONS DONT PROPERLY RENDER. ESPECIALLY OUT OF STEALTH.
    This seems to be partly caused when they clone spam as the rendering engine just seemingly gives up with the sudden visual clutter.
  • You can't really avoid their damage because the core design of condition damage/application when combined with the multi-cast pressure of mirage means that evading even their condi burst you will probably lose half your health from passive clone application followed by autoattacks and AoE. Another issue being the efficacy of AI casters- clones are way too fast and way too persistently perfect in their attacks and I think if anything this speaks to overtly easy design of condition damage as I've never had issue with power mesmer/chrono/mirage clones.Sadly this is not what streams show.Isn't just that your build is hardcountered ? I can see some melee deadeye builds who can manage well against mirage.I mean I don't post an op post everytime a thief kill me on power mesmer/mirage while it hardcounter it since release.About the "CC imune" : just count the 2 evade then CC burst if I can win on a powermirage versus condimirage it's because condimirage have a really slow setup before damage start to hurt and very visible animations on ambush.It's good in a game to have strength and weakness over differents situations.

Nope. The only posts here defending mirage are from mesmer players such as yourself, while all three pages have a variety of players mentioning condition mirage as broken and even the Devs themselves have echoed some of my thoughts on the build here in this thread.

So let me get this strait, if players argue and discuss the issues with mirage, they are wrong in defending the class and right in wanting it toned down.

Yet if the same players start arguing about thief, everyone arguing that thief might have some issues and need some toning down is wrong? You literally mentioned that every one else is wrong about thief, while writing about how condi thief is not overpowered. How are you not biased yourself? :o

I mean I get being in favor of balance changes for another class, but at least have the common decency to not write about your own class while complaining about other players bias. That's hypocritical. I'm quite sure the general consent is that condi thief is overperforming, just like the general consent is that condi mirage is overpowerforming. If we apply a neutral and unbiased standard accross both classes from a majority of comments in this thread, they both need adjusting downward.

As far as the devs mentioning things, they also mention that they want condi thief adjusted (as did many players). Does that make your opinion and argument for the thief class void? Please no double standards.

You missed his entire point really. Its not a matter of defending it or anyone defending a class.

I fully understand that. I guess you missed his entire second part of his first post (before this one) in which he was defending thief and condi thief.

Which is the exact thing he is complaining about when it comes to mirage players: subjective favorism and arguments.

I have no problem with having classes adjusted, I simply dislike players telling others they are biased, while they themselves go on explaining how their class is free from issues. It comes accross as very double standard.

i was actually talking in reference to the dev sorry the statement was kind of for both of you ;)I may or may not be lacking coffee this morning but i get what you mean.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Instant skills are one of the things that we've started discussing internally since cast time isn't something that can be split. One of our main goals for competitive is making sure that there is adequate counterplay. It's going to vary on a case-by-case basis, but cast time increases and adding delays are part of those discussions. Not as splits, but as changes that may need to happen. There's then opportunity for PvE-only splits to compensate skills for these changes.

Be very very careful with that, instant skills are an important part of the action combat and skillful comboing. If you delete them to much by giving them delays, casttimes/ animations you could make the game unnecessary clunky and unfun to play. In particular on classes heavily based on skillful combos for bigger effects. Instant skills are a good part of higher skill ceiling when balanced designed.

The only thing you need to keep in mind for balancing instant skills is, that instant skills should not have high killer impact by their own (like high dmg spammable without the need to care for anything like interrupting or other things would add skill ceiling to it). With other words instant skills by their own should be low impact when not used in a combo and when just brainless spammed.

The only instant skills that currently need attention are Ele Fresh Air traits and Scepter skills and Mesmers Mantra of Pain (turn it into something like Arcane Blast Ele utility for example). Even though i am not a fan of Guards Meditation skills here are the costs in making the power spec clunky and kill the flow totally too high (to name an example). The only thing i could imagine is to make all max range instant teleports without ground targeting (means directly going to the targets without the need of los) work like Revs Phase Traversal with a very little casttime. I could imagine that for Guards Judge's Intervention (even though i would not see a need to rework it, just delete the condi and power dmg part from it). On the other side i would not like to see that cast time on Thief's Steal.

That you say it will be a case to case decision makes sense because you can see it is rly important to look at what would kill the flow of the class and make it clunky as hell when killing instant skills for it. Smite condition is hard at the limit of being a problem but a little less dmg (yes once again) would be a better nerf than giving it a cast time and animation so it can't be comboed anymore.

Also skills like Mantra of Distraction would be killed by giving it a cast time and animation. Even when you kill most Quickness sources, most skills still have less than a sec cast time, you need an instant tool for reactive and skillful interrupts on keyskills. Also Mantra of Distraction doesn't rly have killer impact when just spammed by its own (you could reduce the daze duration back to 1secs instead 1,5 secs, that would be a good change). Even with Powerblock trait in addition it needs at least to reactively interrupt and then still has not remarkable dmg but mostly an utitlity and defensive purpose and has a lot of counterplay due to the need of interrupting (no matter that it is instant). These are balanced and skillful instant tools. Means I also don't see a problem in general of instant casts for skills with main purpose either utility or defense (and barely any dmg). Neither Guards Mantras nor Mesmer Mantras (except for Mantra of Pain) need a cast time or delay or animation. If you feel Guards Mantras have too high effects so they are brianless spammable for high reward than better tweak their effects.

I highly recommend to only look at Ele Fresh Air mechanic and Mantra of Pain when thinking about deleting instant skills by adding delay/ cast time/ animations. All other instant skills are either completely balanced and skillbased already or only need a little tweak in dmg or effect, so that they are not too strong when not used in a combo and brainless spammed. Everything else would just kill gameplay flow and would make several classes unnecessary clunky (Steal, Mantras without big dmg, shatters, soft interrupt tools without lock down mechanic, teleports and so on). The only thing instant skills should not provide is HIGH instant dmg spammable on max range for high reward by their own without comboing.

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@"JediSange.1645" said:

  • Take away so many passive stun break or "every 30sec absorb one stun" things in the game -- you want action combat, not "passive procs once every 30sec" combat

without remove the long stun chains+damage from holo/warr, is just turning GW2 into a Killer Instinct or Tekken, where the one do apply first combo with 50 uniterrupted hits win.

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Well this is a good chance to share my idea right?i want to write every classes but i think thief is enough sry for my bad english thoDaggerBackstab: can u buffs backstab to like ignore protection or something like that ? or put it on Dagger training trait of Deadly arts bcuz its kinda useless in pvp,wvw ( for me at least) so it will be the choice between Mug and Dagger trainning + more damage would be please but d/p dash will shine again i guess-Deadly Blossom : speed it animation buffs more damage-Cloak and Dagger : requested since 2016(?) we needs blind on hit (or critical hit will apply blind sounds fine to me)Sword-infiltrator's strike : put a small delay like 2s before you can infiltrator's return to teleport back that's kinda enough (?) because i think immobilized isn't the problem for it "CORE" skill but "panic strike" is just add 10-15s icd for immobilized part = poison and that's itRifleDeadly aim : if it land a critical hit gain 1 malice would be pleaseSpotter shot : 3 > 5 initiative cost because i think 4 isn't enoughDeath's Reteat : get ammo system only 2 stacks and cooldown per stack is 15-20second condi removed buffs it to 2good DEs are unkillable with this skill to be fair with this others class that have like 0% vs DE can survived longer maybe? and if u can add revealed to at least 1 skill /class would be another way to counter not just DE but all StealthStaffDebilitating Arc : ammo system make it 2 with 5sec cd /stackthis will mostly help vs perma dodge teefUtilities-blinding shadow(DE) : please make it foreseeable even you're in stealth it's hard to predict and so good for set up burst-Haste : instead of gaining swiftness please make it superspeed :D (not the lesser version tho)-Fist Flurry (DD) : sure that this skill is meta for PvE but in PvP,WvW it's just too hard to make it worth for a slot-Distracting Daggers : it's just too bad how about if it charge is full next time it hit apply slow and 100% crit with little more damage recharge reduced from 20s to 10s per blade ?Smoke Screen : to be fair i love this skill so much after you guys reworked it THANK YOU VERY MUCH <3! but i would say that 20s with trait is very very annoyingplease make it 25s when traited ( so the base cd is 30 if i'm right)Scorpion Wire : it's clinky :<Caltrops : cast time reduce?

TraitDeadly ArtDeadly ambition : increase icd to like 10-15 make it 1 stack not 2Dagger trainning : as i mention before for backstab i just put it here to remindPanic Strike : same as dagger trainning just add icd on immobilized target apply poisonTrickeryPreparedness : imo thief should get 15 init base so trickery isn't a MUST and in return make it unique like every 10s in combat gain random stolen skill , stock stolen skill or add 1 more stolen skill slot and you can freely pick one before combat CD 60s like that aren't that suit the "preparedness" named?AcrobatPain response : cd to 30? everybody pick instant reflexes anyways so a good choice of condi cleanse or auto evade is niceguarded initiation : not just got out-shined but also health req. if u can lower it from 75% to 50% would be pleaseCRITICAL STRIKEsignets of power : can you increased it effects? well looks useless for me but effect on killed is pretty good for pve so idk

Silly request for Pistol off handedHead shot : like seriously? u named it so lethal but damage is so little put that daze away and add 100000% damage to it or renamed it please :>

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@"ZDragon.3046" said :Mirage still has no real trade off either so its no surprise people hate it just as much as holo who also has a very minimal tradeoff. Both have great sustain via defensive tools and tons of offensive pressure thats far too unhealthy for the game.Having to use evade to do damage mean you haven't this evade to evade burst/damage which is the definition of tradeoff."tons of offensive pressure" = low setup before strarting hurt while every ambush have obvious animation.Go into details please what is tons of offensive pressure, what is trade off, what is great sustain.

The fact that mirage is a hot topic means its a problem and its one of the bigger problems that needs to be looked at sooner rather than later.No, it's a fact that mesmer is a problem since release because of illusions / targeting problem for the majority of the player base since the release should it be viable or not.This explain the "hot issue" and make people like me bored (to not say angry) of gameplay destruction and unviability because of this same player base who will always has issue as long as mesmer pop a clone. Particulary when argumentation is 100% feeling and extrapolation with no data behind....

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@bravan.3876 said:Neither Guards Mantras nor Mesmer Mantras (except for Mantra of Pain) need a cast time or delay or animation. If you feel Guards Mantras have too high effects so they are brianless spammable for high reward than better tweak their effects.I dont agree with you here. Mantras specifically on both mesmer and guardian are probably some of the first case by case skills that need to be looked at.

Fresh air ele for the most part will be fine with just its damage tone down a good bit.There is nothing skillful about a projectiles-less interrupt that can hit from extremely far away on button press command. Even more so that for the fact of it took 7 years just for that skill respect line of sight and require you to be looking / facing the person you want to hit with it.Things like steal, base guardian virtues (even some meditations etc), mesmer shatters, shroud activation, etc are fine being instant cast as those things are profession mechanics that i dont think cause any problems on their own. When it comes to utility skills though not so sure i agree. Even more so if that utility inflicts a instant hard cc with 0 tell on button press. Not many classes in the game have this kind of power to be frank i dont think any of them should.

When i really start to think about hard cc skills on utility skills i cant think of any that dont have any tell, minor delay, or projectile on them that hit from range them aside from MoD on mesmer. it is one of the few outliers that needs to be fixed. Even if its just turning the skill into a projectile at least in that case it can still be instant to use but has the delay of the projectile travel time and can be countered by reflects / projectile denial etc. You will be able to see it coming at you and not just have to do a 50/50 guess on when some's finger is going to press the button.

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@"ugrakarma.9416" said:without remove the long stun chains+damage from holo/warr, is just turning GW2 into a Killer Instinct or Tekken, where the one do apply first combo with 50 uniterrupted hits win.

A curious metaphor as from a competitive stand point, both of the games you mentioned are more skill based than GW2 (and random as hell -- let's maybe say Street Fighter or something a bit more modern lol). Obviously you shouldn't get CC chained, but yes, dodging stuns and baiting dodge rolls are an important factor in the game. If CC breaks are limited, and passive CC breaks are removed -- everything becomes intentional and better designed. Right now if you can run 2 different CC breaks on your bar, have a passive CC break from traits -- all on <30-50sec CD, you can break out of basically every stun a Warrior has. Point in fact, for a Warrior to be able to stun you they would have to forego condi clear which is untenable in the current meta.

My point is mostly that things should have trade offs. If you take CC break, you should be making a choice to lose something else. Damage, condi clear, etc. The issue right now is that things are overloaded. And frankly, the game should be focused on the fundamentals: dodge rolling. The more we can focus on dodge rolling, baiting dodge rolls, and using them skillfully -- that's how you get a high skill ceiling game without all the crazy "balance" that GW2 has currently.

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@viquing.8254 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said :Mirage still has no real trade off either so its no surprise people hate it just as much as holo who also has a very minimal tradeoff. Both have great sustain via defensive tools and tons of offensive pressure thats far too unhealthy for the game.Having to use evade to do damage mean you haven't this evade to evade burst/damage which is the definition of tradeoff."tons of offensive pressure" = low setup before strarting hurt while every ambush have obvious animation.Go into details please what is tons of offensive pressure, what is trade off, what is great sustain.

Thats not a trade off thats just a part of the elite spec play style dont get the two things confused.Reaper has to stay in melee range to do realistic damage but thats not its trade off this is part of its play style.

Reaper's Its trade off is higher life force cost to use it's shroud mechanic which has less defense for more cleave and upfront damage and the loss of core shroud skills.Mirage trade off is not existent among the shatter skills. Not that the current meta really encourages you to use the shatter skills anyway. You can just leave clones up and alive especially staff clones to do tons of damage. through autos and Infinite Horizon.

The fact that mirage is a hot topic means its a problem and its one of the bigger problems that needs to be looked at sooner rather than later.No, it's a fact that mesmer is a problem since release because of illusions / targeting problem for the majority of the player base since the release should it be viable or not.Thats not what we are here to talk about.This explain the "hot issue" and make people like me bored (to not say angry) of gameplay destruction and unviability because of this same player base who will always has issue as long as mesmer pop a clone. Particulary when argumentation is 100% feeling and extrapolation with no data behind....Well you have alot of people 100% "Feeling" something needs to be done and sooner rather than later this is factual data.

In truth it does not matter. The only data or facts we need is based on what they dev said. "If its good right now it's considered to be stronger than we want it to be" This factually includes mirage considering its the main combat choice of the mesmer profession in pvp at the moment. You dont need data to know this. This is the reality of the situation.

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@Greyjoy.5167 said:

Holosmith
Traits/Utilities/Healing Skills/Elites
  1. Healing Turret's
    cast time needs to be increased to 1s
    minimum
    . 3/4s base with perma quickness is basically impossible to reactively interrupt. Having frequent access to stab coupled with an extremely powerful, reliable heal provides Holosmiths a very easy way to consistently top themselves off. This should be looked at.
  2. Lock On
    (the reveal trait) should not be DOUBLE proc 12s reveal on a 25s cd that gives fury and applies 20 stacks of vuln.
  3. Kinetic Battery
    needs to have it's quickness and super speed duration reduced to 3 seconds and increase the maximum stacks to 10 so that it takes Holos 14 seconds to cycle this trait rather than 7 seconds.
  4. Heat Therapy
    needs it's healing cut to 1/3 of it's current value (from 65 health per unit of heat lost to 22). You nerfed Rugged Growth (another minor trait) on ranger because it was healing around 600 hps on MENDERS amulet while we had protection.
    • Heat Therapy provides a constant 652 healing per SECOND while at max stacks and causes Vent Exhaust to heal for 800 health every time they dodge. Keep in mind, this insane healing does not require ANY healing power investment asides from the (negligible) amount received from Leadership Runes.
    • In other words, with permanent vigor and Heat Therapy, a Holo can heal up to 9000 health every 10 seconds (6520 passively through Heat Therapy, dodging 3x = 2400 healing with Vent Exhaust).
    • This does NOT include healing from Healing Turret. The health regen on Tools Holo is absolutely insane. It's literally more than a warrior's Healing Signet + max stacks of Adrenal Health (the latter of which requires the warrior to land their burst skills) which only heal for a combined 743 hps in comparison.
  5. Invigorating Speed
    should give 3 seconds of vigor when gaining swiftness on a 10 second ICD. In it's current state, it gives Holos permanent vigor with very little investment.
  6. Toss Elixir S
    needs it's stealth duration reduced to 3 seconds. The current iteration gives the Holos a LONG 6 second stealth every 30 seconds that is almost impossible to prevent. This single toolbelt skill lets them reset extremely frequently.
  7. Elixir U
    needs it's cooldown increased from 40s base to 50s.
  8. Prime Light Beam
    needs a louder sound cue and needs to have the animation cancel bug fixed (the beam animation shows but doesn't do damage).
Photon Forge
  1. Holo Leap
    needs it's cooldown increased to 4 seconds. Spamming this ability gives the Holo incredible amounts of mobility and damage on a short, 2 second cooldown leap finisher. It moves them 450 range on a 2s cd. In 10 seconds, this enables the Holo to move 2250 range on top of their already (near permanent) super speed uptime with Kinetic Battery.
  2. Corona Burst
    should apply 2 stacks of stab on the initial pulse with 3 targets max. Currently, it is 1 stack per target hit (max 5) on each pulse. This single skill can give the Holo up to 10 stacks of stability for 4 seconds every 6 seconds and requires 2 defensive skills to avoid.
  3. The fact that a Holo can transform and still retain access to ALL of their utilities/toolbelt skills/healing/elite is very strong but disabling them or even just the toolbelt skills might be too much(?).
  4. Light Strike -> Bright Slash -> Flash Cutter
    need their ranges reduced from 240 to 130. They are nearly twice as long as the ranges of (every?) auto attack chain in the game on top of the fact that they can out-trade nearly everything in melee range with them as well.
Weapons
  1. Hip Shot
    needs to have a 1s cast time up from .84s. This skill is a laser beam when the Holo has quickness (which means all the time) and the cast time is so quick that literally tracks a target that entered stealth for 2-3 shots.
  2. Net Shot's
    immobilize should be reduced to 1 second and the cast time increased to 1/2 seconds.
  3. Blunderbuss
    needs a longer cast time.
  4. Overcharged Shot
    needs a longer windup and animation similar to a ranger's Point Blank Shot.

Bruh you are delusional.Pick 1-2 of what you proposed and its gonna be fine.

All of these can drop at once and Holosmith, both rifle and Prot Holo, would still be an A-B tier build for ranked.

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