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Let's Talk About PvP Balance


Cal Cohen.2358

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@ParanoidKami.2867 said:Can you speed up the animation of Rev shield 4? Tried a healing Rev today and it was very hard to time it to heal my allies. They would all just move out of the way by the time it got to them. I never had any issues with Druid staff 3 for example.

It’s like shooting a sniper rifle u need to give the discount of the projectile for its distance.

Reason why I used shield for closer heals and tablet for further heals.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Regardless of how much everyone disagrees with each other's suggestions, I think this is the wrong thread to create arguments.

It's a rare opportunity where Arenanet directly asked us for our opinions. We should keep this thread clean.

~ Just gonna throw that in there.

I agree. I'm tired of seeing players trying to defend their favorite class in this thread.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

Mesmer


  • Problem
    : Combined with
    , this trait means that
    alone can apply anywhere from 8-16 stacks of long-duration bleeding. Also, coupled with Mirage’s exceptionally high access to CC’s, this means that pistol skills can recharge nearly instantly.
  • Solution
    : Currently, this trait bleeds on EVERY hit from pistol attacks from you and your illusions. Instead, change this to 33% chance to bleed on CRITICAL hits like most other bleeding-related traits. Also, remove the 25% cooldown reduction on interrupt and make it a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills.

  • Problem
    : Again, this trait is 100% chance on critical hits to apply a 5-8 second bleed (Carrion vs. Deadshot amulet). This results in insane amounts of bleeding stacks with little effort on the mesmer’s part.
  • Solution
    : Similar to
    ,
    ,
    , and
    (basically every single bleed-on-attack related trait), make it 33% on critical hits and reduce the bleeding duration to 3 seconds because the effect can trigger from 3 different sources.

  • Problem
    : Dodging while disabled should not exist.
  • Solution
    : Remove the ability to dodge while disabled.

  • Problem
    : This skill is a 4.75 second cooldown, 2 second duration block that summons 2 clones and applies 7 stacks of torment (5 on trigger, 1 per clone).
  • Solution
    : Increase the cooldown to 10 seconds (8 seconds while traited) and reduce the torment on trigger to 3.

First of all, stop taking stuff out of your kitten .Illusionary counter has 8s cd, not 4,5.
Spawned clones go throught motion of autoattack the same way normal clones do, so adding that to the damage is just not very smart.

Illusionary axes, DO NOT apply 25stacks of torment, dunno where you took it from, in fact if you use it with 3 clones, and all axes land, thats 12 stacks of torment ( less then half ) and 9 stacks of bleed ( assuming all 9 hits crit 50% chance, times 9 its almost impossible )

Pistol bleeds, Im not sure if nerfing pistols damage by 85% is a solution here, how about we nerf rapid fire from ranger by 85%? im sure you would be thrilled about that.

Clear bias shown as usual, when you speak of your main its buff this, buff that, wrongly changed shmack. When you speak of mesmer nerf thi by 85%, nerf that by 66%, remove this remove that. yikes.

tldr. at least get the facts right before you complain.

I just copied and pasted what I wrote in that thread. Relax.

Illusionary Counter used to be on a 6 second cooldown and they increased it to 8 seconds in March. W/e it's still busted on a 6.5s/8s cd.

The axe clone auto attacks alone can stack up to 30 bleeds and nearly 20 torment without help from the player. It's pretty reasonable to have 3 clones up to use the Axe Ambush with Deceptive Evasion + weapon skills. You can also see in that screenshot that I didn't use any cooldowns asides from a single dodge.

The bleed traits on mesmer are WAY stronger than every other bleed trait in the game. 18 bleeds stacks on a single button press sounds fine to you? Sorry, but I have no interest in getting into discussions with people who have an extremely warped perception of balance.

Imagine calling me biased when you're literally hard defending mesmer cause it's your main. I've provided the reasons behind all of my changes. Whether or not you disagree I really couldn't care less. I posted them for Anet to read.

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@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:Why nerf core traits of Condi Thief when the issue is S/D Condi Thief and the type of playstyle it generates? D/D and P/D Condi Thief are NOT overperforming AT ALL and yet a change like this is also a nerf to those underperforming versions of the build with no compensation for those versions of condi thief.

@sinject.4607 said:On Thief: I want to really stress how wrong a lot of people are about thief in general.

  • Condition daredevil might be annoying but that's all it is in my opinion. Unlike the aforementioned condition mirage, condition daredevil doesn't really have much in the way of sustain and relies too heavily on one or two attacks that can be avoided (steal/infiltrator's strike) leading them to be predictable and easy to manage. Every time thief has gotten a viable condition build it quickly gets nerfed because everyone bemoans the simplicity and ease despite this being chiefly an issue with the core design of condition damage itself... I don't play condition at all, but my main issue is that nerfing condition thief will almost certainly end up nerfing power S/D builds for the billionth time and power S/D is already pretty bad.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:teef - remove cripple from skirmishers shot and move it to spotters (remove immob), remove panic strike poison on immob, buff power d/d, make pistol whip evade immediately like it was in the past but replace stun with daze

I agree with them on what they write about Thief.

  1. Deadly Ambition is not the problem and nerf it is not the solution.
  2. Remove Panic Strike Poison stacks.
  3. Condi S/D Daredevil Thief is not so hard to counter if you have some condi clean and you know how to play.. The only problem is the amount of poison you can stack spamming only 1 skill (Infiltrator's Strike) that is unfair.

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Hi again,

I wanted to swing by with an end-of-day update. I’ve really enjoyed seeing the community’s passion on balance and the overall state of the game. There were other topics that were brought up today, and we will create more specific discussions in the future. I will continue to monitor and gather feedback from the forums so keep posting your thoughts as you have them.

Going forward we want to keep our mission statement of being more communicative and including the community. So here are our next steps on the balance front:

There will be more posts going into further detail about our balance plans for the next patches. This will include a list of targeted changes for the next balance update as well as our high-level philosophy and vision for the more impactful patch coming later. We will continue to communicate with the community early and often in order to gather feedback on these changes, which will allow us to have a chance to iterate.

From the whole systems team, thanks everyone for your passion for competitive gw2 and the feedback you provided today.

@Cal Cohen.2358 please consider the feedback from players that are at least able to argue.Post like "nerf! Nerf! Nerf it to the ground! Cancel that build! No more...!" are good to let people vent, but they are dangerous to the game itself.

Builds diversity is one of the pillars of this game: we have 9 classes, 27 specializations (core and 2 elite each class), different weapon sets and different gear stats.. how sad is the game when the playable builds are only one or two per class?

You talk about "including the community", well I hope it will happen.. in the right way.Have good job and a nice day!

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@Aza.2105 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Regardless of how much everyone disagrees with each other's suggestions, I think this is the wrong thread to create arguments.

It's a rare opportunity where Arenanet directly asked us for our opinions. We should keep this thread clean.

~ Just gonna throw that in there.

I agree. I'm tired of seeing players trying to defend their favorite class in this thread.

Where are the data and argument we ask for before random whine then ?

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

Mesmer


  • Problem
    : Combined with
    , this trait means that
    alone can apply anywhere from 8-16 stacks of long-duration bleeding. Also, coupled with Mirage’s exceptionally high access to CC’s, this means that pistol skills can recharge nearly instantly.
  • Solution
    : Currently, this trait bleeds on EVERY hit from pistol attacks from you and your illusions. Instead, change this to 33% chance to bleed on CRITICAL hits like most other bleeding-related traits. Also, remove the 25% cooldown reduction on interrupt and make it a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills.

  • Problem
    : Again, this trait is 100% chance on critical hits to apply a 5-8 second bleed (Carrion vs. Deadshot amulet). This results in insane amounts of bleeding stacks with little effort on the mesmer’s part.
  • Solution
    : Similar to
    ,
    ,
    , and
    (basically every single bleed-on-attack related trait), make it 33% on critical hits and reduce the bleeding duration to 3 seconds because the effect can trigger from 3 different sources.

  • Problem
    : Dodging while disabled should not exist.
  • Solution
    : Remove the ability to dodge while disabled.

  • Problem
    : This skill is a 4.75 second cooldown, 2 second duration block that summons 2 clones and applies 7 stacks of torment (5 on trigger, 1 per clone).
  • Solution
    : Increase the cooldown to 10 seconds (8 seconds while traited) and reduce the torment on trigger to 3.

First of all, stop taking stuff out of your kitten .Illusionary counter has 8s cd, not 4,5.
Spawned clones go throught motion of autoattack the same way normal clones do, so adding that to the damage is just not very smart.

Illusionary axes, DO NOT apply 25stacks of torment, dunno where you took it from, in fact if you use it with 3 clones, and all axes land, thats 12 stacks of torment ( less then half ) and 9 stacks of bleed ( assuming all 9 hits crit 50% chance, times 9 its almost impossible )

Pistol bleeds, Im not sure if nerfing pistols damage by 85% is a solution here, how about we nerf rapid fire from ranger by 85%? im sure you would be thrilled about that.

Clear bias shown as usual, when you speak of your main its buff this, buff that, wrongly changed shmack. When you speak of mesmer nerf thi by 85%, nerf that by 66%, remove this remove that. yikes.

tldr. at least get the facts right before you complain.

I just copied and pasted what I wrote in that thread. Relax.

Illusionary Counter used to be on a 6 second cooldown and they increased it to 8 seconds in March. W/e it's still busted on a 6.5s/8s cd.

The axe clone auto attacks alone can stack up to 30 bleeds and nearly 20 torment without help from the player. It's pretty reasonable to have 3 clones up to use the Axe Ambush with Deceptive Evasion + weapon skills. You can also see in that screenshot that I didn't use any cooldowns asides from a single dodge.

The bleed traits on mesmer are WAY stronger than every other bleed trait in the game. 18 bleeds stacks on a single button press sounds fine to you? Sorry, but I have no interest in getting into discussions with people who have an extremely warped perception of balance.

Imagine calling me biased when you're literally hard defending mesmer cause it's your main. I've provided the reasons behind all of my changes. Whether or not you disagree I really couldn't care less. I posted them for Anet to read.

you are one of the people that are incapable of seing the biger picture, for example pistol bleed trait HAS to be "overtuned" becouse it works only with 2 skills, AND its a power weapon. entire channel of it with lucky crits deals about the same damage as hard hitting skills of other classes, but weee lets nerf by 85%, with your suggestion, pistol 4 will deal 2-3k dmg.

as for axes, one big omegalul. if you keep getting hit by 12 axes from ambush you need to reconsider your life, clones walk up into melee range to be killed, you dont get to keep them.i dont give a flying kitten about NuMbErS of BlEeDs on button presses, I care about HOW MUCH DAMAGE THAT WILL DO. and its not more then other classes with their hard to hit abilities.axe is a meme weapon, complaining about it just makes you look like you dont know what you are talking about.

you are one of the people that looks at a spec with weaknesses and Strengths, thinks that Strengths are too good so he will UTTERLY gut then, leaving then only with weak stuff. if you wanna gut entire weapon set, and entire playstyle in general offer compensation, why do mesmer gets to kill himself on reflect? why is condi mesmer forced to deal 98% of its damage with projectiles even on melee weapon axe shoots projectiles, and multihits ( if you actually played extended time on cmirage you would know that so matchups are so unwinable that attacking your oponent just makes you die faster ).

TLDR OP takes stuff out of his ass, outright lies to fit his agenda.fine gut mirage, ill find different build to annoy people with, nerf longbow ranger by 85% alongside it, and nerf bambi by 66% too becouse fuck it why not.unlike you I dont go around spewing lies to nerf the stuff I dont like.

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@SehferViega.8725 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:Why nerf core traits of Condi Thief when
the issue is S/D Condi Thief
and the type of playstyle it generates?
D/D and P/D Condi Thief are NOT overperforming AT ALL
and yet a change like this is also a nerf to those underperforming versions of the build with no compensation for those versions of condi thief.

On Thief:
I want to really stress how wrong a lot of people are about thief in general.
  • Condition daredevil might be annoying but that's all it is in my opinion.
    Unlike the aforementioned condition mirage, condition daredevil doesn't really have much in the way of sustain and relies too heavily on one or two attacks that can be avoided (steal/infiltrator's strike) leading them to be predictable and easy to manage. Every time thief has gotten a viable condition build it quickly gets nerfed because everyone bemoans the simplicity and ease despite this being chiefly an issue with the core design of condition damage itself... I don't play condition at all, but my main issue is that nerfing condition thief will almost certainly end up nerfing power S/D builds for the billionth time and power S/D is already pretty bad.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:teef - remove cripple from skirmishers shot and move it to spotters (remove immob),
remove panic strike poison
on immob, buff power d/d, make pistol whip evade immediately like it was in the past but replace stun with daze

I agree with them on what they write about Thief.
  1. Deadly Ambition is not the problem
    and nerf it is not the solution.
  2. Remove Panic Strike Poison stacks.
  3. Condi S/D Daredevil Thief is not so hard to counter if you have some condi clean and you know how to play.. The only problem is the amount of poison you can stack spamming only 1 skill (Infiltrator's Strike) that is unfair.

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Hi again,

I wanted to swing by with an end-of-day update. I’ve really enjoyed seeing the community’s passion on balance and the overall state of the game. There were other topics that were brought up today, and we will create more specific discussions in the future. I will continue to monitor and gather feedback from the forums so keep posting your thoughts as you have them.

Going forward we want to keep our mission statement of being more communicative
and including the community
. So here are our next steps on the balance front:

There will be more posts going into further detail about our balance plans for the next patches. This will include a list of targeted changes for the next balance update as well as our high-level philosophy and vision for the more impactful patch coming later. We will continue to communicate with the community early and often in order to gather feedback on these changes, which will allow us to have a chance to iterate.

From the whole systems team, thanks everyone for your passion for competitive gw2 and the feedback you provided today.

@Cal Cohen.2358 please consider the feedback from players that are at least able to argue.Post like "nerf! Nerf! Nerf it to the ground! Cancel that build! No more...!" are good to let people vent, but they are dangerous to the game itself.

Builds diversity is one of the pillars of this game: we have 9 classes, 27 specializations (core and 2 elite each class), different weapon sets and different gear stats.. how sad is the game when the playable builds are only one or two per class?

You talk about "including the community", well I hope it will happen.. in the right way.Have good job and a nice day!I think that the NErf nerf NErf threads are just a red flag that something is not working properly and needs some looking into, how was it, People might not know what is wrong, but they sure do know that something is off.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

Mesmer


  • Problem
    : Combined with
    , this trait means that
    alone can apply anywhere from 8-16 stacks of long-duration bleeding. Also, coupled with Mirage’s exceptionally high access to CC’s, this means that pistol skills can recharge nearly instantly.
  • Solution
    : Currently, this trait bleeds on EVERY hit from pistol attacks from you and your illusions. Instead, change this to 33% chance to bleed on CRITICAL hits like most other bleeding-related traits. Also, remove the 25% cooldown reduction on interrupt and make it a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills.

  • Problem
    : Again, this trait is 100% chance on critical hits to apply a 5-8 second bleed (Carrion vs. Deadshot amulet). This results in insane amounts of bleeding stacks with little effort on the mesmer’s part.
  • Solution
    : Similar to
    ,
    ,
    , and
    (basically every single bleed-on-attack related trait), make it 33% on critical hits and reduce the bleeding duration to 3 seconds because the effect can trigger from 3 different sources.

  • Problem
    : Dodging while disabled should not exist.
  • Solution
    : Remove the ability to dodge while disabled.

  • Problem
    : This skill is a 4.75 second cooldown, 2 second duration block that summons 2 clones and applies 7 stacks of torment (5 on trigger, 1 per clone).
  • Solution
    : Increase the cooldown to 10 seconds (8 seconds while traited) and reduce the torment on trigger to 3.

First of all, stop taking stuff out of your kitten .Illusionary counter has 8s cd, not 4,5.
Spawned clones go throught motion of autoattack the same way normal clones do, so adding that to the damage is just not very smart.

Illusionary axes, DO NOT apply 25stacks of torment, dunno where you took it from, in fact if you use it with 3 clones, and all axes land, thats 12 stacks of torment ( less then half ) and 9 stacks of bleed ( assuming all 9 hits crit 50% chance, times 9 its almost impossible )

Pistol bleeds, Im not sure if nerfing pistols damage by 85% is a solution here, how about we nerf rapid fire from ranger by 85%? im sure you would be thrilled about that.

Clear bias shown as usual, when you speak of your main its buff this, buff that, wrongly changed shmack. When you speak of mesmer nerf thi by 85%, nerf that by 66%, remove this remove that. yikes.

tldr. at least get the facts right before you complain.

I just copied and pasted what I wrote in that thread. Relax.

Illusionary Counter used to be on a 6 second cooldown and they increased it to 8 seconds in March. W/e it's still busted on a 6.5s/8s cd.

The axe clone auto attacks alone can stack up to 30 bleeds and nearly 20 torment without help from the player. It's pretty reasonable to have 3 clones up to use the Axe Ambush with Deceptive Evasion + weapon skills. You can also see in that screenshot that I didn't use any cooldowns asides from a single dodge.

The bleed traits on mesmer are WAY stronger than every other bleed trait in the game. 18 bleeds stacks on a single button press sounds fine to you? Sorry, but I have no interest in getting into discussions with people who have an extremely warped perception of balance.

Imagine calling me biased when you're literally hard defending mesmer cause it's your main. I've provided the reasons behind all of my changes. Whether or not you disagree I really couldn't care less. I posted them for Anet to read.

you are one of the people that are incapable of seing the biger picture, for example pistol bleed trait HAS to be "overtuned" becouse it works only with 2 skills, AND its a power weapon. entire channel of it with lucky crits deals about the same damage as hard hitting skills of other classes, but weee lets nerf by 85%, with your suggestion, pistol 4 will deal 2-3k dmg.

as for axes, one big omegalul. if you keep getting hit by 12 axes from ambush you need to reconsider your life, clones walk up into melee range to be killed, you dont get to keep them.i dont give a flying kitten about NuMbErS of BlEeDs on button presses, I care about HOW MUCH DAMAGE THAT WILL DO. and its not more then other classes with their hard to hit abilities.axe is a meme weapon, complaining about it just makes you look like you dont know what you are talking about.

you are one of the people that looks at a spec with weaknesses and Strengths, thinks that Strengths are too good so he will UTTERLY gut then, leaving then only with weak stuff. if you wanna gut entire weapon set, and entire playstyle in general offer compensation, why do mesmer gets to kill himself on reflect? why is condi mesmer forced to deal 98% of its damage with projectiles even on melee weapon axe shoots projectiles, and multihits ( if you actually played extended time on cmirage you would know that so matchups are so unwinable that attacking your oponent just makes you die faster ).

TLDR OP takes stuff out of his kitten, outright lies to fit his agenda.fine gut mirage, ill find different build to annoy people with, nerf longbow ranger by 85% alongside it, and nerf bambi by 66% too becouse kitten it why not.unlike you I dont go around spewing lies to nerf the stuff I dont like.

Just because skills can be avoided doesn't mean they don't do any damage lol

Anyways I'm not arguing this with you. It's pointless because you think Mirage is super weak and needs buffs and nothing it has is OP w/e

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Projectile destruction/reflects

In WvW this is way to over represented and easily accessed compared to way to deal with or counter it as a projectile heavy class.Especially when guardians, who have access to many reflect skills, happen to be a dominant class in this game mode. This sure pave way for a meta favoring classes with large non-prjectile area skills like necro and ele rather than other classes that could fill different roles or even niched builds.

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@Ghos.1326 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term:
What outliers do you see in the current meta?
Then think about the big picture:
What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed?

Hey there and Thank you for the Update.

I have to ask, are the sentences in
bold
ment as questions for the players or an example of what is the Team going to ask themselves when balancing/spliting?

Also, you say it should be focused mainly on splits, does it mean we should not expect changes to functionality of skills, but instead simple number tweaks?

Would
for example
, caping might stacks at 10 be considered a split or somewhat complicated change that is for now off the board?

For this post, these questions are for the players as discussion topics. They are also things that the team is discussing internally as we look toward these balance updates.

I want you all to focus on splits because those are the changes we can do with no impact on the rest of the game. If a split makes sense for PvP or WvW, we can just do it. Functionality changes require larger discussions about the impact on the whole game. We are starting discussions internally about things that are not addressable with numbers changes, because there are things that need a functional change but need to change for the sake of competitive modes.

Game mode-specific boon caps is something that we have talked about, but there are other ways that we can solve some of these problems. For the example of might, I'd want to look at the sources and durations of might applications. 25 might isn't necessarily a problem if it requires significant investment from multiple team members, but a single player self-stacking 25 might is something that probably shouldn't happen. There's also the possibility of splitting the effectiveness on a game mode basis.

im glad ur back at arenanet (:

but yea delete condi thief

Very near future release note:
  • Deadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison has been decreased from 2 to 1 in PvP only.We're not sure it's enough but hopefully a good start.

NO, please stop with this pattern of nerfing/buffing things, changes like these are why the game is totally unbearable today.

The trait is good at it is at the moment, it helps a lot of condi builds that are not even viable or good, the only one that is overperforming is condi s/d.Please instead of nerfing a trait/skill until it becomes garbage (like most of your balance patches) start looking at the bigger picture.

What's wrong here is sword #2 interaction with panic strike, and it has been long before PoF (remember condi thief ventari rev meta) you never removed condi thief, you just nerfed it and people realized core was better now it's the same, you nerfed core power and people realized condi thief is much better.

Remove the poison from panic strike, it's the easiest solution you can do, it will literally have 0 effect in any situation, what makes panic strike worth of choosing is first the other traits are worse and the immobilize effect is crucial in some situations for thieves (chasing) that's it, the poison is unnecessary so remove the poison and add anything else, boom you delete condi s/d thief for good and you don't nerf other condi builds.

They are looking at the bigger picture. The problem lies in Daredevil s/d because the traits that allow it to stack 6 poison in one go, on top of other things that give poison, are what causes Daredevil s/d to be as unbearable as it is now.

lol no they aren't, the problem lies in SWORD #2 not Daredevil, do you really think people would still use s/d condi if they can't poison with sword 2?

I'm saying that instead of doing what they always do (nerfing a skill/trait until it becomes unviable) remove the poison from panic strike which gives the free poison ticks for sword 2.

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I thought about a long essay about the philosophy of balance and the further I went into it the more and more I realized no one would ever read it. And so I figured I'd just condense a lot of what I'd like to see immediately into small patch notes.

MesmerCry of Frustration Cooldown reduced to 16 seconds to make condition shatter traits more worth taking over deceptive evasion.Mantra of Pain: Rather than immediately pulsing damage, this ability gives a ticking time bomb effect similar to pulmonary impact that will pulse a bit of damage after 3 seconds, but can be dodged and blocked.Illusion of Life: Increase cast time to 2s, give it an obvious tell akin to Signet of Mercy.Illusionary Counter (Scepter 2): This ability now fires a projectile to deal it's damage rather than immediately applying from range.Deceptive Evasion: Clones from the Mirage specialization no longer spawn doing their ambush attack.Mirage Cloak: This is no longer usable while while under crowd control effects aside from daze.False Oasis: Cast time of this skill has been increased to 1.25 seconds, healing reduced by 15%.Chaos Vortex: Condition duration from staff clone ambushes has been reduced by 50%.Long term goal: Decompress power mesmer's damage output so that it can't be overlapped in under a second to one shot players. Compress Condition mesmer's output so that it requires a number of both shatter and weapon skills to land for it to get it's damage rather than bombarding players with an endless assault of clone auto attacks.Long term goal: Unkitten Chronomancer. Seriously, losing Distortion for Continuum Split was enough, losing Illusionary Person on top of it was over kill.

Elementalist:Riptide: Cooldown as been increased by 2 secondsEarthen Vortex: Cooldown has been increased by 2 seconds.Twist of Fate: Additionally 5 second cooldown between uses.Static Dicharge: This skill applies a ticking time bomb effect before pulsing damage similar to Pulmonary Impact but can be evaded and blocked.Long Term Goal: Rework Scepter+Staff into being DPS team fight carry weapons with effectiveness similar to October 2019 scourge. This is a swords and sorcery RPG and the class that defines sorcery doesn't remotely provide the class fantasy of chucking huge fireballs at people for massive damage.Long Term Goal: Make Tempest a viable but different support alternative that can compete with Firebrand while preventing it from being viable as a side noder.

Necromancer:I'm kind of just okay with them tbh.

EngineerToss Elixir S: Base stealth has been reduced to 2s instead of 5s.Healing Turret: Healing from the initial healing and the overcharge has been reduced by 30%. The water field's duration has been increased by 30%.Photon Forge: This form no longer allows the holosmith to use their utility skills.Photon Forge: This ability now has an 8s cooldown to enter and exit.Heat Therapy: Has been removed and replaced with a completely different trait that does something completely different.
Prime Light Beam: This ability applies revealed to the holosmith when they begin casting it.Purity of Purpose: 3 second internal cooldown added.Long Term Goal: Make kits a more valid form of play with a clear purpose between them that also allows them to feel like complete weapon sets. Right now all of the kit utilities have 1-3 skills that are good and make sense but all of them struggle with being hybrized between both condi and power sets in ways no other weapon sets have to deal with as well as none of them feeling like complete weapon sets in and of themselves. If you smoothen out core engineer kits you'd radically improve the prevalence and viability of core engineer.Long Term Goal: Make Scrapper a viable but different support alternative that can compete with Firebrand while preventing it from being viable as a side noder.

Thief:Nuke condition thief into the ground.Nuke Staff/Staff thief into the ground.Steal: All damaging traits that feed into steal such as Mug, Serpent's Touch, Bewildering Ambush, should be removed and replaced with something else.Infiltrator's Strike: Reduce range to 600.Escapist's Fortitude: Internal Cooldown increased to 5 seconds.Long Term Goal: Condition thief should be reworked to no longer revolving around a convoluted mess of trait procs that all intertwine with each other and into specific weapon tool kits and specific skill shots it has to run with clear strengths and weaknesses. Even

, this video is still relevant.
Lotus Training should no longer do damage in and of itself. Perhaps it should provide a +20% increased condition damage buff if you actively evade an attack.Bounding Dodge should no longer do damage in and of itself. Perhap it should provide a +20% increased power damage buff if you actively evade an attack.Long Term Goal: Rework Deadeye towards a more Exodia Deck playstyle that sets up an automatic win condition overtime rather than the immense range burster that can dump 15k damage in under a second on engagement.

RangerLong Term Goal: Rework Druid into being a viable but different alternative to Firebrand while preventing it from being viable as a side noder.

WarriorGive Arcing Slice tiered damage like every other burst skill.Reckless Dodge: Reduced damage output by 75%. Remove unblockable.Revenge Counter returns Full Counter to it's prenerf damage.Long term goal: Rework Spellbreaker from being just a power crept version of warrior into a specialization that wins by removing what other classes do well, such as allowing spellbreakers to become extremely anti-boon, or anti-condi, or anti ranged ect ect. Both by reworking traits and buffing the meditation skills.

Guardian:I'm kind of just okay with them tbh.

Revenant:Inhibit Revenant's ability to chain together literally 10+ seconds of block and evade back to back with no pause.Buff Malyx? Malyx is the only thing I find particularly interesting about revenant and I'd appreciate seeing more of it.Long Term Goal: Ventari+Glint revenant should be a viable support different but competitive from firebrand.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Berserker

  1. Honestly I don't feel much can be done here without bloating the specialization. The damage output is already insane, and if you guys start adding defensive mechanisms into it, it could easily become over powered. I don't know. I'll let the Warrior mains comment on this. But Berserker as of now is just kind of bad and at the bottom of the list of "barely acceptable"

Renegade

  1. Boy oh boy is it bad. It completely lacks defensive mechanisms to do what it needs to do. I won't make specific suggestions here, but maybe some of its skills should have some evades or other defensive mechanisms implemented into them.

If Anet really tones down the meta specs then both Berserker and Renegade would be fine.

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@"mortrialus.3062" said:I thought about a long essay about the philosophy of balance and the further I went into it the more and more I realized no one would ever read it. And so I figured I'd just condense a lot of what I'd like to see immediately into small patch notes.

Thief:Nuke condition thief into the ground.Nuke Staff/Staff thief into the ground.Steal: All damaging traits that feed into steal such as Mug, Serpent's Touch, Bewildering Ambush, should be removed and replaced with something else.Infiltrator's Strike: Reduce range to 600.Escapist's Fortitude: Internal Cooldown increased to 5 seconds.Long Term Goal: Condition thief should be reworked to no longer revolving around a convoluted mess of trait procs that all intertwine with each other and into specific weapon tool kits and specific skill shots it has to run with clear strengths and weaknesses. Even

, this video is still relevant.

Lotus Training should no longer do damage in and of itself. Perhaps it should provide a +20% increased condition damage buff if you actively evade an attack.Bounding Dodge should no longer do damage in and of itself. Perhap it should provide a +20% increased power damage buff if you actively evade an attack.Long Term Goal: Rework Deadeye towards a more Exodia Deck playstyle that sets up an automatic win condition overtime rather than the immense range burster that can dump 15k damage in under a second on engagement.

WarriorGive Arcing Slice tiered damage like every other burst skill.Revenge Counter returns Full Counter to it's prenerf damage.Long term goal: Rework Spellbreaker from being just a power crept version of warrior into a specialization that wins by removing what other classes do well, such as allowing spellbreakers to become extremely anti-boon, or anti-condi, or anti ranged ect ect. Both by reworking traits and buffing the meditation skills.

You wanna take away the functionality of DrDs dodges because they do stuff but leave Warriors unblockable-boon-granting 6k Reckless Dodge in tact?Reducing IS to 600 would straight away delete S/D, both condi and power as it did delete D/P. Also you may not realize how very vital Mug is for power thief, both the Heal and to lesser extent the dmg, if anything Mug encourages more skilled gameplay, so you don't waste the heal of Mug as some Thieves just blow Steal right away and thats a free win. I realize you said "replace it" but that would have to be a truly uniquely viable replacement.

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@Alatar.7364 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:I thought about a long essay about the philosophy of balance and the further I went into it the more and more I realized no one would ever read it. And so I figured I'd just condense a lot of what I'd like to see immediately into small patch notes.

Thief:Nuke condition thief into the ground.Nuke Staff/Staff thief into the ground.Steal: All damaging traits that feed into steal such as Mug, Serpent's Touch, Bewildering Ambush, should be removed and replaced with something else.Infiltrator's Strike: Reduce range to 600.Escapist's Fortitude: Internal Cooldown increased to 5 seconds.Long Term Goal: Condition thief should be reworked to no longer revolving around a convoluted mess of trait procs that all intertwine with each other and into specific weapon tool kits and specific skill shots it has to run with clear strengths and weaknesses. Even
, this video is still relevant.

Lotus Training should no longer do damage in and of itself. Perhaps it should provide a +20% increased condition damage buff if you actively evade an attack.Bounding Dodge should no longer do damage in and of itself. Perhap it should provide a +20% increased power damage buff if you actively evade an attack.Long Term Goal: Rework Deadeye towards a more Exodia Deck playstyle that sets up an automatic win condition overtime rather than the immense range burster that can dump 15k damage in under a second on engagement.

WarriorGive Arcing Slice tiered damage like every other burst skill.Revenge Counter returns Full Counter to it's prenerf damage.Long term goal: Rework Spellbreaker from being just a power crept version of warrior into a specialization that wins by removing what other classes do well, such as allowing spellbreakers to become extremely anti-boon, or anti-condi, or anti ranged ect ect. Both by reworking traits and buffing the meditation skills.

You wanna take away the functionality of DrDs dodges because they do stuff but leave Warriors unblockable-boon-granting 6k Reckless Dodge in tact?Reducing IS to 600 would straight away delete S/D, both condi and power as it did delete D/P. Also you may not realize how very vital Mug is for power thief, both the Heal and to lesser extent the dmg, if anything Mug encourages more skilled gameplay, so you don't waste the heal of Mug as some Thieves just blow Steal right away and thats a free win. I realize you said
"replace it"
but that would have to be a truly uniquely viable replacement.

Good point. That one slipped my mind despite just how much that annoys me.

Reckless Dodge: Reduce damage by 75%. Removed unblockable.

Regarding mug, I fundamentally disagree on a baseline philosophical level on instant cast animation free damage being a thing that is allowed to even exist in the game. Hence why I recommend other stuff, like Mantra of Pain and Elementalist Static Discharge being changed to time bomb effects that can be blocked and evaded.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:I thought about a long essay about the philosophy of balance and the further I went into it the more and more I realized no one would ever read it. And so I figured I'd just condense a lot of what I'd like to see immediately into small patch notes.

Thief:Nuke condition thief into the ground.Nuke Staff/Staff thief into the ground.Steal: All damaging traits that feed into steal such as Mug, Serpent's Touch, Bewildering Ambush, should be removed and replaced with something else.Infiltrator's Strike: Reduce range to 600.Escapist's Fortitude: Internal Cooldown increased to 5 seconds.Long Term Goal: Condition thief should be reworked to no longer revolving around a convoluted mess of trait procs that all intertwine with each other and into specific weapon tool kits and specific skill shots it has to run with clear strengths and weaknesses. Even
, this video is still relevant.

Lotus Training should no longer do damage in and of itself. Perhaps it should provide a +20% increased condition damage buff if you actively evade an attack.Bounding Dodge should no longer do damage in and of itself. Perhap it should provide a +20% increased power damage buff if you actively evade an attack.Long Term Goal: Rework Deadeye towards a more Exodia Deck playstyle that sets up an automatic win condition overtime rather than the immense range burster that can dump 15k damage in under a second on engagement.

WarriorGive Arcing Slice tiered damage like every other burst skill.Revenge Counter returns Full Counter to it's prenerf damage.Long term goal: Rework Spellbreaker from being just a power crept version of warrior into a specialization that wins by removing what other classes do well, such as allowing spellbreakers to become extremely anti-boon, or anti-condi, or anti ranged ect ect. Both by reworking traits and buffing the meditation skills.

You wanna take away the functionality of DrDs dodges because they do stuff but leave Warriors unblockable-boon-granting 6k Reckless Dodge in tact?Reducing IS to 600 would straight away delete S/D, both condi and power as it did delete D/P. Also you may not realize how very vital Mug is for power thief, both the Heal and to lesser extent the dmg, if anything Mug encourages more skilled gameplay, so you don't waste the heal of Mug as some Thieves just blow Steal right away and thats a free win. I realize you said
"replace it"
but that would have to be a truly uniquely viable replacement.

Good point. That one slipped my mind despite just how much that annoys me.

Reckless Dodge: Reduce damage by 75%. Removed unblockable.

Regarding mug, I fundamentally disagree on a baseline philosophical level on instant cast animation free damage being a thing that is allowed to even exist in the game. Hence why I recommend other stuff, like Mantra of Pain and Elementalist Static Discharge being changed to time bomb effects that can be blocked and evaded.

Probably should get rid of IH, that's like damage on dodge lol.

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If it deals damage or inflicts a stun, don't make it instantaneous and/or grant an evade period for the attacker. Try balancing combat around 0.74-1s attack cycles so that positioning and the dodge mechanic actually mean something (although, the former will never really be consistently useful since teleports are everywhere).

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@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Personally I hope it is only downward balancing.

Not really concerned with those that "feel too weak", when the problem can be solved by bringing down "those too strong".

We might be able to have some fun if everyone was B tier.

That is true... but unlikely. This thread more like trade offs in the past; a publicity stunt. I would say we are lucky if we get a fraction of what advertised.

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@otto.5684 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Personally I hope it is only downward balancing.

Not really concerned with those that "feel too weak", when the problem can be solved by bringing down "those too strong".

We might be able to have some fun if everyone was B tier.

That is true... but unlikely. This thread more like trade offs in the past; a publicity stunt. I would say we are lucky if we get a fraction of what advertised.

I'm a camel with a LOOOOOOOOOT of straw on my back for this game.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:Revenant:Inhibit Revenant's ability to chain together literally 10+ seconds of block and evade back to back with no pause.

Hard disagree. If revenant is “evading/blocking” for 10s straight it’s spending all of its energy on doing that at the expense of losing most of its damage output (note not all, just the majority) and will end up dead once it runs out of energy. Meanwhile you have plenty of other classes able to put out significant damage pressure and block/evade/invuln without having to really trade off for it. Spellbreaker/Mirage for example.

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:I thought about a long essay about the philosophy of balance and the further I went into it the more and more I realized no one would ever read it. And so I figured I'd just condense a lot of what I'd like to see immediately into small patch notes.

Thief:Nuke condition thief into the ground.Nuke Staff/Staff thief into the ground.Steal: All damaging traits that feed into steal such as Mug, Serpent's Touch, Bewildering Ambush, should be removed and replaced with something else.Infiltrator's Strike: Reduce range to 600.Escapist's Fortitude: Internal Cooldown increased to 5 seconds.Long Term Goal: Condition thief should be reworked to no longer revolving around a convoluted mess of trait procs that all intertwine with each other and into specific weapon tool kits and specific skill shots it has to run with clear strengths and weaknesses. Even
, this video is still relevant.

Lotus Training should no longer do damage in and of itself. Perhaps it should provide a +20% increased condition damage buff if you actively evade an attack.Bounding Dodge should no longer do damage in and of itself. Perhap it should provide a +20% increased power damage buff if you actively evade an attack.Long Term Goal: Rework Deadeye towards a more Exodia Deck playstyle that sets up an automatic win condition overtime rather than the immense range burster that can dump 15k damage in under a second on engagement.

WarriorGive Arcing Slice tiered damage like every other burst skill.Revenge Counter returns Full Counter to it's prenerf damage.Long term goal: Rework Spellbreaker from being just a power crept version of warrior into a specialization that wins by removing what other classes do well, such as allowing spellbreakers to become extremely anti-boon, or anti-condi, or anti ranged ect ect. Both by reworking traits and buffing the meditation skills.

You wanna take away the functionality of DrDs dodges because they do stuff but leave Warriors unblockable-boon-granting 6k Reckless Dodge in tact?Reducing IS to 600 would straight away delete S/D, both condi and power as it did delete D/P. Also you may not realize how very vital Mug is for power thief, both the Heal and to lesser extent the dmg, if anything Mug encourages more skilled gameplay, so you don't waste the heal of Mug as some Thieves just blow Steal right away and thats a free win. I realize you said
"replace it"
but that would have to be a truly uniquely viable replacement.

Good point. That one slipped my mind despite just how much that annoys me.

Reckless Dodge: Reduce damage by 75%. Removed unblockable.

Regarding mug, I fundamentally disagree on a baseline philosophical level on instant cast animation free damage being a thing that is allowed to even exist in the game. Hence why I recommend other stuff, like Mantra of Pain and Elementalist Static Discharge being changed to time bomb effects that can be blocked and evaded.

Probably should get rid of IH, that's like damage on dodge lol.

I mean if you want to be technical it takes .25s for your ambush attack to become available after dodging. The end result is that Axe is the only ambush attack that can theoretically be 100% covered by mirage cloak. Other ambush attacks such as sword, staff, and scepter leave the mirage vulnerable to attack while casting the ambush attack for .5s or longer.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:I thought about a long essay about the philosophy of balance and the further I went into it the more and more I realized no one would ever read it. And so I figured I'd just condense a lot of what I'd like to see immediately into small patch notes.

Thief:Nuke condition thief into the ground.Nuke Staff/Staff thief into the ground.Steal: All damaging traits that feed into steal such as Mug, Serpent's Touch, Bewildering Ambush, should be removed and replaced with something else.Infiltrator's Strike: Reduce range to 600.Escapist's Fortitude: Internal Cooldown increased to 5 seconds.Long Term Goal: Condition thief should be reworked to no longer revolving around a convoluted mess of trait procs that all intertwine with each other and into specific weapon tool kits and specific skill shots it has to run with clear strengths and weaknesses. Even
, this video is still relevant.

Lotus Training should no longer do damage in and of itself. Perhaps it should provide a +20% increased condition damage buff if you actively evade an attack.Bounding Dodge should no longer do damage in and of itself. Perhap it should provide a +20% increased power damage buff if you actively evade an attack.Long Term Goal: Rework Deadeye towards a more Exodia Deck playstyle that sets up an automatic win condition overtime rather than the immense range burster that can dump 15k damage in under a second on engagement.

WarriorGive Arcing Slice tiered damage like every other burst skill.Revenge Counter returns Full Counter to it's prenerf damage.Long term goal: Rework Spellbreaker from being just a power crept version of warrior into a specialization that wins by removing what other classes do well, such as allowing spellbreakers to become extremely anti-boon, or anti-condi, or anti ranged ect ect. Both by reworking traits and buffing the meditation skills.

You wanna take away the functionality of DrDs dodges because they do stuff but leave Warriors unblockable-boon-granting 6k Reckless Dodge in tact?Reducing IS to 600 would straight away delete S/D, both condi and power as it did delete D/P. Also you may not realize how very vital Mug is for power thief, both the Heal and to lesser extent the dmg, if anything Mug encourages more skilled gameplay, so you don't waste the heal of Mug as some Thieves just blow Steal right away and thats a free win. I realize you said
"replace it"
but that would have to be a truly uniquely viable replacement.

Good point. That one slipped my mind despite just how much that annoys me.

Reckless Dodge: Reduce damage by 75%. Removed unblockable.

Regarding mug, I fundamentally disagree on a baseline philosophical level on instant cast animation free damage being a thing that is allowed to even exist in the game. Hence why I recommend other stuff, like Mantra of Pain and Elementalist Static Discharge being changed to time bomb effects that can be blocked and evaded.

Probably should get rid of IH, that's like damage on dodge lol.

I mean if you want to be technical it takes .25s for your ambush attack to become available after dodging. The end result is that Axe is the only ambush attack that can theoretically be 100% covered by mirage cloak. Other ambush attacks such as sword, staff, and scepter leave the mirage vulnerable to attack while casting the ambush attack for .5s or longer.

Don't consider a flat boost, what should these GM traits really do?

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