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Let's Talk About WvW Balance


Cal Cohen.2358

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:There’s to much of everything in low CD, wich creates the massive boonstacking, aoe spam and high damage builds with low risk gameplay...And IMO the reason that sucks is due to the
effect
, not the low cd. If anything, there is
too high cd
on too many skills.

GW2 differ itself from the archaic MMOs of casting a fireball while stationary on a minutes cd in that it has fast, responsive combat. Attack, dodge, attack. The enemy use a skill, you block it. The enemy put condi on, you cleanse.

But over the years with all the durations slapped on and skills doing more and more at the same time, the skills have become bloated. You could
half
the duration and effects of almost everything and cut cd.

With how the current skills work u could never slap the CD into half, on some elites u could do that probably, but not in most of skills, I would just macro everything since it was available every 5-8 sec... holo and beast are quite busted due how anets wants them to carry its users, can u imagine half of the cd with the current balance... that would be far more unskilled that we have now, imagine a pd condi DD with half of the CD.. it would be a pure carry class... more than it is once unmaster how lame it is to get carried witthbhow easy it’s to interrupt targets with just autos...

In group it would be nosense spam w/o worrying wath is happening with the field.... it would be pretty bad, it is already bad due the game is overloaded with aoe.

IF game was more about visually notice what is happening and most skills were single I could see Some CD”s reduced, but now how lame gameplay actually is.

Gw2 is already labeled to be the pvp mmo for the incompetent, don’t make it worse.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Outlier: Professions/specs that rely on summons such as mesmer or renegade will always be at a disadvantage in zergs. They need the dmg reduction from PvE. And be, not necessarily uninterruptable, but moderately usable against 20+ enemies.

I don't know if they need damage reduction to all effects because that would majorly affect roaming but at a glance I can see Retaliation being a huge issue when targeting a stacked group. Should minions be immune to, or take much less damage, from Retal?

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@GrahamW.5397 said:

@"shiri.4257" said:One side argues there are too many boons. another argues that there are too many strips. what a giant clown fiesta of gamers we have.

There are both too many strips and too many boons. You nerf boon uptime without hitting strips and then strips become completely out of control and the kitten pirateship meta thats happening right now gets even worse.This is a faulty statement. The relation between boons and strips isnt a positive/negative scaled one. I.e. you lower one side, the other side will rise, and vice versa. The problem is in the vice versa. It's mostly true one way, but not the other way around. When you lower the power of boon stripping/corruption, etc., the "scale" indeed tips, and boons will even go more out of control (until some kind of a saturation point). But the other way around will behave differently: When you nerf the power of applying boons, the need of strips will also go down, cause if you try to strip a player that doesn't have boons it's useless and you will
even
be punished (casttime, cooldown, resources, lack of alternative skill in slot, etc.) for it.

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@Aeolus.3615 said:With how the current skills work u could never slap the CD into half, on some elites u could do that probably, but not in most of skills, I would just macro everything since it was available every 5-8 sec... holo and beast are quite busted due how anets wants them to carry its users, can u imagine half of the cd with the current balance... that would be far more unskilled that we have now, imagine a pd condi DD with half of the CD.. it would be a pure carry class... more than it is once unmaster how lame it is to get carried witthbhow easy it’s to interrupt targets with just autos...

In group it would be nosense spam w/o worrying wath is happening with the field.... it would be pretty bad, it is already bad due the game is overloaded with aoe.

IF game was more about visually notice what is happening and most skills were single I could see Some CD”s reduced, but now how lame gameplay actually is.

Gw2 is already labeled to be the pvp mmo for the incompetent, don’t make it worse.Didnt say half the cd, said half the duration and cut the cd. And when I say duration, of course I'm talking skills which gives 15s boons on 50s -> 7s boons on 30s or similar. Or AoE fields that last 10s on 30s cd -> 5s on 25s cd or something. Not reducing holo shockwave to 5s cd for the lolz.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:With how the current skills work u could never slap the CD into half, on some elites u could do that probably, but not in most of skills, I would just macro everything since it was available every 5-8 sec... holo and beast are quite busted due how anets wants them to carry its users, can u imagine half of the cd with the current balance... that would be far more unskilled that we have now, imagine a pd condi DD with half of the CD.. it would be a pure carry class... more than it is once unmaster how lame it is to get carried witthbhow easy it’s to interrupt targets with just autos...

In group it would be nosense spam w/o worrying wath is happening with the field.... it would be pretty bad, it is already bad due the game is overloaded with aoe.

IF game was more about visually notice what is happening and most skills were single I could see Some CD”s reduced, but now how lame gameplay actually is.

Gw2 is already labeled to be the pvp mmo for the incompetent, don’t make it worse.Didnt say half the cd, said half the duration and cut the cd. And when I say duration, of course I'm talking skills which gives 15s boons on 50s -> 7s boons on 30s or similar. Or AoE fields that last 10s on 30s cd -> 5s on 25s cd or something. Not reducing holo shockwave to 5s cd for the lolz.

Just run 2 holos and spam

Ez pz

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@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:With how the current skills work u could never slap the CD into half, on some elites u could do that probably, but not in most of skills, I would just macro everything since it was available every 5-8 sec... holo and beast are quite busted due how anets wants them to carry its users, can u imagine half of the cd with the current balance... that would be far more unskilled that we have now, imagine a pd condi DD with half of the CD.. it would be a pure carry class... more than it is once unmaster how lame it is to get carried witthbhow easy it’s to interrupt targets with just autos...

In group it would be nosense spam w/o worrying wath is happening with the field.... it would be pretty bad, it is already bad due the game is overloaded with aoe.

IF game was more about visually notice what is happening and most skills were single I could see Some CD”s reduced, but now how lame gameplay actually is.

Gw2 is already labeled to be the pvp mmo for the incompetent, don’t make it worse.Didnt say half the cd, said half the duration and cut the cd. And when I say duration, of course I'm talking skills which gives 15s boons on 50s -> 7s boons on 30s or similar. Or AoE fields that last 10s on 30s cd -> 5s on 25s cd or something. Not reducing holo shockwave to 5s cd for the lolz.

Just run 2 holos and spam

Ez pz

Did i say spam?I meant skillfully rotate

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completely aside from all ideas and thoughts about the WvW-Balance that have been stated and suggested here, i´ve got one BIG point that (theoretically) would make it much easier for ANet to balance WvW in general.DON´T rely too much only on the forums. Instead: PLAY WvW yourself. And with "play" i don´t mean, going into WvW, spending a few hours and then leave again.--> play WvW (and WvW only!) over a long period of time (meaning months, expierience multiple relinks, different matchups and so on) at a daily basis--> join the respective communities of every (and with every in mean: EVERY) server and actually SEE what´s going on in WvW, HEAR the voices of the active WvW-players--> SEE it all with your own eyes, see the issues that are adressed, feel the imbalances that currently exist in WvW--> compare the rewards you get for playing WvW intensively with the rewards you would get in the same time from playing only PvE/sPvP--> don´t forget that WvW is over 80% a large-scaled PvP-Mode. balancing this should be priority number one.--> think about what balance actually means and which factors are involved to define if a mode is balanced or not. this already starts in terms of player-counts (including differences in timezones), goes on with the choice of classes (as i already stated earlier, in the current state 10/18 possible classes, core builds not included, are absolutely not useful for large-scaled fights, and some only under certain conditions), choice of skills (the latest patch intended to increase build diversity, but achieved the exact opposite)--> make EVERY specialization effective in a zerg by giving it a unique purpose in zerg construction (currently there are too many skills on too low classes and too many classes with too less effectivity).-->keep in mind, that a huge amount of WvW-players are playing WvW only, and many of those (me included) just don´t care for any PvE-Content (besides events maybe). don´t let PvE influence WvW in any way, these 2 modes are completely different in ANY aspect and are (and should never be) related to each other.

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Please bring back the old Signet of Inspiration. Chrono has been nearly Impossible to play to any useful capacity in group WvW. In fact, Mesmer in general is in a really bad spot for WvW past roaming/havocing. SoI doesn’t have to be as strong, and we don’t need the trait allowing us to use a minor SoI on illusion summon. How about everyone receives boons on the chrono at a 50% duration or something?

Also the lack of having a self-shatter and no distort skill without using CS or a traited signet really cucks us. I’d say you can either bring back self-shatter or if you simply make clones more survivable in WvW so we have an opportunity to use shatters that would work too

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@Gamander.7269 said:

@Char.4209 said:Giving a tempest shout groupstability (like on aftershock) would make it another good competitor for the support position.

Interesting. That would make heal tempest meta if not completely overpowered, considering how much healing this class can put out.

maybe, but Firebrand has still more stability, aegis spam, reflection bubbles, resistance and pulls

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Without going in to so much depth as this thread already covers, I think it's player skill which should be rewarded most.

There are many traits out there that do not invoke skill. The automatic invulnerability traits like Elixir S and Lesser Endure Pain just provides a low-effort escape while not requiring any activation or critical timing.

More curious is why many classes do not have access to boon removal, thus why scourges are so desirable. Boons such as Retaliation are far more overpowering than they should be. Some groups easily run permanent up-time of retaliation, which to any class that puts out frequent (usually low) damage attacks or AoE take significant damage, all while the enemy effectively does nothing for it. Being heavily punished for attacking leaves you in a situation of not wanting to attack. One option would be to spread boon removal to more classes or another to lower the effect of retaliation. Perhaps even change retaliation from a boon to a Guardian specific AoE buff, so players would at least know who to target to remove it.

Lastly, the skills that can fully restore a players health such as Defiant Stance, Infuse Light or even the instant resurrection skills. While these can be interrupted if you're lucky, there's nothing more disheartening than a close fight that results in one player going from down/almost down back to 100% health again. If you also happen to be playing on a condi character, you've no control over the conditions already stacked on them, so they inevitably recover to 100%.

Anyway, that's a bit of a shortlist. There's plenty of desires/wishes/ideas but start with the basics imo.

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The issue is that there are so many CC’s in the game that it’s impossible to have a large scale fight without becoming a ping pong ball 99% of the time. That’s why we need stability, and then because we have to have lots of stability, there needs to be corrupts to get rid of the stability.

The source of everything boils down to the numerous abilities that CC...it’s a big problem and it’s not an easy fix. The only way to solve such an issue is putting limitations on CC themselves (like the diminishing returns on CC in gw1) which in itself creates other issues.

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What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed?In all great competitive video games, you are rewarded for making key tactical decisions. I think of the top MOBAs, and even of GW1. When you snare, or stun, or dodge those effects, the result is meaningful. You can get that kill, capture that one point; produce a clip worth sharing across the Internet.

But GW2 is a game of escape hatches. And I understand why: there's a ton of CC in the game, and CC is powerful, so Stability had to be made. At some point (pre-release) the damage formula didn't feel good, so classes needed invuln skills just to stay alive in PvP. It's far more accessible to just drop AoEs, spin your reaper scythe and get dem kills, and sadly it's far too effective.

I can't go into some tldr about what exactly should be changed, but try to takeaway this:

  • Immobilizing someone should keep them immobilized unless they have specific skills or a class that should counter it. (thieves are slippery) A successful Necro dagger 3 should be rewarded with an opponent just stuck, perhaps in a well.
  • Mesmer and Ele are light classes, and yet are very hard to kill simply because of evade or invuln frames. It isn't fun to fight them, and I don't think it's fair that a mesmer can very easily stomp with a distortion.
  • What would happen if you revisited the dodge mechanic? Everyone knows it isn't a true dodge: you can dodge into a corner to avoid a boss's attack that "actually hit" you. And that's fine! But could you remove some of the dodge frames at the end? Do some internal testing to see just how much evasion time you get from one dodge, it's actually kind of silly.
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I forgot to mention, please bring Edge of the mists into the fold and make it replace one of the existing alpine border-lands for spice of life. That maps is amazing and has all the stuff that used to make WvW fun. Its a shame that such a lovely map is un-used and with gliding and the mount it would be even more fun. Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

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If you came in here expecting a personal back and forth with the devs, if you expected them to keep responding to this thread for days weeks months on end afterwards, if you expect changes will happens overnight in a week in a month, you're surely mistaken and need to reign back your expectations. Post your opinion on what needs to be fixed and move on.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

It does. When there are queues, people go there. But here is the great thing: You can go there ANYTIME!!

There is nothing stopping you from playing this map. Enjoy!

You get nothing from playing in eotm other than boredom. No wxp, no pips etc. Not exactly a useful place to go to.

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yea nerf guardian/dh/ and especially FB cause if you play roamer you die 1v1 cause you killed those spec because FB is good in groups and garbage in solo situations. Aegis which is guardian exclusive you gave to other professions. Thats why I am not logging anymore into this game cause you killed my class with every balance update, and I would rather pay for other games cause you lack ppl who actual can balance things out. If you think guard/DH/Fb is good you should do some 1v1 tournaments inside your balance team and you will realize(finally) which class needs shaving in pure dmg but i think I would beat your game balance team with my thief which was never created nor played even with wrong traits and skills.

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My commentary:

Reduce the amount of Condi spam and cleanse appropriately. Move the PvP split for some skills/traits into WvW to reduce the power level.

I'm in favor of reducing the boon uptime/stacks as well, HOWEVER, I also think target caps should be increased in WvW. For instance, Warrior Shouts and Phalanx Strength: they currently are 5 target cap. Since WvW is both small scale and large scale combat these would function better with a 10 target cap if not more.

I'd prefer to go back to no target cap (I miss those days), but I also fully understand why it is there now. I just think target caps should be revisited after condi, power, and boon spam is reduced. Part of the Pirate Ship meta is because of stacking on the tag in hopes that 45 of the 50 man zerg wont get hit by AoEs. If target caps were increased or removed in WvW then the Pirate Ship meta would lessen several degrees.

I think removing the target cap would work well if power levels, condi spam, and boon spam were toned down enough.

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@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

It does. When there are queues, people go there. But here is the great thing: You can go there ANYTIME!!

There is nothing stopping you from playing this map. Enjoy!

You get nothing from playing in eotm otherthan boredom.

Well that would be in the eye of the beholder. The poster I was replying to said it was a great place.

No wxp,

Incorrect. You get WxP. And reward track progress.

no pips etc. Not exactly a useful place to go to.

Well, that’s about rewards. If that is their motivation then I guess you are right.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

It does. When there are queues, people go there. But here is the great thing: You can go there ANYTIME!!

There is nothing stopping you from playing this map. Enjoy!

You get nothing from playing in eotm otherthan boredom.

Well that would be in the eye of the beholder. The poster I was replying to said it was a great place.

No wxp,

Incorrect. You get WxP. And reward track progress.

no pips etc. Not exactly a useful place to go to.

Well, that’s about rewards. If that is their motivation then I guess you are right.

wxp in eotm??? When did they change that back? The rewards you get in eotm aren’t the same... unless they changed that again as well.
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@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

It does. When there are queues, people go there. But here is the great thing: You can go there ANYTIME!!

There is nothing stopping you from playing this map. Enjoy!

You get nothing from playing in eotm otherthan boredom.

Well that would be in the eye of the beholder. The poster I was replying to said it was a great place.

No wxp,

Incorrect. You get WxP. And reward track progress.

no pips etc. Not exactly a useful place to go to.

Well, that’s about rewards. If that is their motivation then I guess you are right.

wxp in eotm??? When did they change that back? The rewards you get in eotm aren’t the same... unless they changed that again as well.

According to the Wiki, yes. I can easily be wrong.

The rate and value is decreased.

Most people went there to increase their Normal XP and leveled toons there.

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