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Let's Talk About WvW Balance


Cal Cohen.2358

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

It does. When there are queues, people go there. But here is the great thing: You can go there ANYTIME!!

There is nothing stopping you from playing this map. Enjoy!

You get nothing from playing in eotm otherthan boredom.

Well that would be in the eye of the beholder. The poster I was replying to said it was a great place.

No wxp,

Incorrect. You get WxP. And reward track progress.

no pips etc. Not exactly a useful place to go to.

Well, that’s about rewards. If that is their motivation then I guess you are right.

wxp in eotm??? When did they change that back? The rewards you get in eotm aren’t the same... unless they changed that again as well.

According to the Wiki, yes. I can easily be wrong.

The rate and value is decreased.

Most people went there to increase their Normal XP and leveled toons there.

Back in the day.... but they changed that as far as I know

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One last important thing:

dont nerf core classes when you nerf elite spec.especially:Dont kill core engi when you finally nerf Holo.Dont kill core necro when you finally fix scourge.Dont kill core ele and tempest when you finally nerf sword weaver.Dont kill core rev when you nerf 25 might ++++ from Herald and when you finally kill cancer condi herald / renegade.Core tihef is fine, core warrior is fine,Dont kill core Ranger when you finally nerf the right things on boonbeast ( the over tuned regen, stabi, might,protection, quickness, evade spam )And do not kill core guard when you nerf firebrand.edit: forgot mesmer: Dont kill core mesmer when mirage is the problem :)

Thank You

yes i live in the year 2013... i hate all path of fire classes and yesI would remove all elite specs from wvw and pvp ( okey hot specs are great, they can stay - but remove pof specs )

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@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

It does. When there are queues, people go there. But here is the great thing: You can go there ANYTIME!!

There is nothing stopping you from playing this map. Enjoy!

You get nothing from playing in eotm otherthan boredom.

Well that would be in the eye of the beholder. The poster I was replying to said it was a great place.

No wxp,

Incorrect. You get WxP. And reward track progress.

no pips etc. Not exactly a useful place to go to.

Well, that’s about rewards. If that is their motivation then I guess you are right.

wxp in eotm??? When did they change that back? The rewards you get in eotm aren’t the same... unless they changed that again as well.

According to the Wiki, yes. I can easily be wrong.

The rate and value is decreased.

Most people went there to increase their Normal XP and leveled toons there.

Back in the day.... but they changed that as far as I know

See this: and while @XenesisII.1540 isnt infallible, he is usually correct about such things.

@XenesisII.1540 said:They had removed regular exp(from all wvw maps) not wxp from eotm...

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  1. Perma stealth wombo combo is not a playstyle or concept its degeneracy. No counterplay even with reveal. This needs to go.

  2. Daredevil staff power damage needs to reduced by 30% asap. Thief condi variants needs nerfs in method of application and frequency

  3. Condi mirage needs to be gutted in survivability and the window of opportunity to hit them should be bigger. Also the damage from clones is absurd and too reliable. Tormenting runes 6th bonus should be changed to something else.

  4. Make power chrono viable. Idk how you can do that now.

  5. Tune down warrior damage from buffs(not boons) that they apply to themselves from traits.

  6. Buff firebrand output back to its original state but gut its self sustain by like 50%. So that focusing firebrands is even more effective.

  7. Just rollback all shade cooldown and cast time nerfs on scg and just change sand savant to this:

"Decreased shade recharge. Increased targets. When you equip this trait you dont cast f1 damage with every f skills. Instead you heal all allies in the shade and grant them boons."

Different boon for different f skill.

This will remove all damage aspect from shade skills when you take sand savant making it support oriented not highly dps oriented in fights and damage spam from f skills will be removed.

  1. If you want go big, completely rework wells to something entirely different on necro. Also please for the love of god rework staff, even though it is a good weapon it creates so much clutter in zerg fights which is not healthy for the game.

  2. Warrior hammer stuns need their duration reduced to follow up the reduction in powercreep of everything.

  3. Reduce mobility on roaming classes like thief and specially soulbeast. Reduce leap ranges and reduce avoid frames and make skills more easily interruptable. Also reduce the prot uptime on classes like holo and soulbeast. Prot should be used actively to avoid damage not be a permanent boon.

  4. Remove all boons, buffs and boon rips on weapon auto attacks. Give auto attack chain to all weapons.

There is plenty more things to say but if anet makes these changes the experience would be a lot better.

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Exp was removed from wvw/eotm in the april 19 2016 patch, which a massive amount of changes were also made to the game( for wvw links rewards tracks stability changes).https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-April-19-2016

Exp was replaced with more frequent drops of tomes of knowledge in wvw rank up chest and reward tracks.Wxp was lowered in eotm at some point if I remember that right, you also earn less reward track points, and no pips in eotm which pretty much chased away everyone back to wvw then.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

It does. When there are queues, people go there. But here is the great thing: You can go there ANYTIME!!

There is nothing stopping you from playing this map. Enjoy!

You get nothing from playing in eotm otherthan boredom.

Well that would be in the eye of the beholder. The poster I was replying to said it was a great place.

No wxp,

Incorrect. You get WxP. And reward track progress.

no pips etc. Not exactly a useful place to go to.

Well, that’s about rewards. If that is their motivation then I guess you are right.

wxp in eotm??? When did they change that back? The rewards you get in eotm aren’t the same... unless they changed that again as well.

According to the Wiki, yes. I can easily be wrong.

The rate and value is decreased.

Most people went there to increase their Normal XP and leveled toons there.

Back in the day.... but they changed that as far as I know

See this: and while @XenesisII.1540 isnt infallible, he is usually correct about such things.

@XenesisII.1540 said:They had removed regular exp(from all wvw maps) not wxp from eotm...

ahhh ok got it.

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@Ragnarox.9601 said:yea nerf guardian/dh/ and especially FB cause if you play roamer you die 1v1 cause you killed those spec because FB is good in groups and garbage in solo situations. Aegis which is guardian exclusive you gave to other professions. Thats why I am not logging anymore into this game cause you killed my class with every balance update, and I would rather pay for other games cause you lack ppl who actual can balance things out. If you think guard/DH/Fb is good you should do some 1v1 tournaments inside your balance team and you will realize(finally) which class needs shaving in pure dmg but i think I would beat your game balance team with my thief which was never created nor played even with wrong traits and skills.

Any other Chrono fans wanna chime in and let him know what having your class destroyed really feels like?

Side note, I roam on DH and FB all the time and it’s faceroll easy to be successful. This is a you problem, not a design problem sorry.

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All I ask is caution on implementing changes to classes. Not for Balance sake, that needs to be done, but to prevent introduction of bugs.Since the change where reapers cannot be healed in Reaper Shroud for example, I often cannot get out of combat at all. Have to run half a map to get out of combat on both my Reapers.

(Yes I reported the bug, and it's been looked at - but still... playing specially WvW is a drag now... how often a squad leaves me behind because I - and my fellow reapers are sooooo late in being able to mount uo)

So... balance changes, sure, but test it and retest it before you bring it out.

This issue has proven to be hard to fix and is ongoing for months now. Please take that in consideration for any changes to any class are made, to prevent such Showstoppers to happen to other classes.

A balance change should never make a class completely unusable due to a hard to fix bug introduced.

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@Aizza.4950 said:

@"Ragnarox.9601" said:yea nerf guardian/dh/ and especially FB cause if you play roamer you die 1v1 cause you killed those spec because FB is good in groups and garbage in solo situations. Aegis which is guardian exclusive you gave to other professions. Thats why I am not logging anymore into this game cause you killed my class with every balance update, and I would rather pay for other games cause you lack ppl who actual can balance things out. If you think guard/DH/Fb is good you should do some 1v1 tournaments inside your balance team and you will realize(finally) which class needs shaving in pure dmg but i think I would beat your game balance team with my thief which was never created nor played even with wrong traits and skills.

Any other Chrono fans wanna chime in and let him know what having your class destroyed really feels like?

Side note, I roam on DH and FB all the time and it’s faceroll easy to be successful. This is a you problem, not a design problem sorry.

Not fooling anyone acting as if Chronomancer, or the Mesmer profession, didn’t need adjusting... Or pretending this class isn’t still powerful.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:With how the current skills work u could never slap the CD into half, on some elites u could do that probably, but not in most of skills, I would just macro everything since it was available every 5-8 sec... holo and beast are quite busted due how anets wants them to carry its users, can u imagine half of the cd with the current balance... that would be far more unskilled that we have now, imagine a pd condi DD with half of the CD.. it would be a pure carry class... more than it is once unmaster how lame it is to get carried witthbhow easy it’s to interrupt targets with just autos...

In group it would be nosense spam w/o worrying wath is happening with the field.... it would be pretty bad, it is already bad due the game is overloaded with aoe.

IF game was more about visually notice what is happening and most skills were single I could see Some CD”s reduced, but now how lame gameplay actually is.

Gw2 is already labeled to be the pvp mmo for the incompetent, don’t make it worse.Didnt say half the cd, said half the duration and cut the cd. And when I say duration, of course I'm talking skills which gives 15s boons on 50s -> 7s boons on 30s or similar. Or AoE fields that last 10s on 30s cd -> 5s on 25s cd or something. Not reducing holo shockwave to 5s cd for the lolz.

Oh in that case I fully agree :p

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Although most has been said by more experienced players I want to share my personal opinions on this topic.

Before the main balance of professions there are two struggles in wvw. The infamous "obstructed" (especially in specific areas), the worth of defending an object and the linking/relinking of servers and their populations.

In spvp class stackin, match manipulation and afk players are some of the problems.

In class balance I can add more but like I said mpst has been said already. Let me cut it short.

-Druid needs a buff along with chrono.

  • Renegade needs a serious rework for it to be viable in pvp and wvw.
  • Revenant Ventari needs some work to be a viable support in wvw and pvp.
  • There are several weapons and utility skills/elite skills that need attention. Most of them are really useless and havent been reworked by quite some time. The game changed, they did not.
  • Overtuned specs should be nerfed. They are beyond control.
  • One shot builds shall no longer exist in spvp and get tuned down in wvw along with some cheesy builds.
  • Dmg, both power and condi, should be lowered. Healing should be balanced accordingly.
  • Sieges should be buffed. Some of them barely tickles.
  • Rewards should be adjusted. Pvp feels fine yet wvw needs some love.
  • Special events are needed. Dual class week or no downstate week were all really fun actually.
  • I am sorry to say that but game needs new content and new profession abilities (elite specs, dual class options or something like that).

But most importantly you have corrected the most problematic one; communication. For years gw2 community had been yelling to deaf ears. It is really nice to have a communication line with devs. So long we have been neglected. Thank you.

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Hi Cal,

Thanks for asking our opinions, and I look forward to more open communication in the future.

The two issues that I currently see are:

  • Too many boons
  • Too much damage

A team can literally steamroll over an entire organized group in 5 seconds flat, even if the team that lost the fight had boons and time to prepare for the fight. I understand that in these situations there is a skill difference between the two groups, but it still doesn't make for a fun fight when they are finished in under a minute. I have been on both the giving and receiving end of the steamroll and honestly neither of them are very fun.

I know this is quite general, but I feel that with the powercreep of both damage and boons over the subsequent expansions, WvW hasn't bee very well balanced overall.

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Please let me fake some interest and pretend to listen to you because I see less playtime because I dont listen to you and your legitimate concerns regarding bad gameplay. Yes! Lets make everyone perma-stealth, then they wont notice that there are less enemies because then they could be anywhere. Omg I'm so smart, this will make the game soo good! Oh wait, I can do even better. Lets give all classes almost constant invulnerability and evade, becuase then they wont nag me with that balance-what-her-face thing that I don't like to work on, because they wont be able to tell whats going on. Err.. my bosses tell me I can only do it for those new classes that they pay for, oh well, should be awesome

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I'll try to add my thoughts:

  • Classes like Firebrand, Scourge or Spellbreaker are natural choices for zerg fights and will (and should) stay relevant in the future. I can understand, however, that players get bored with that meta after 2+ years without a new expansion. So I'd propose frequent events that mess with the game balance for a limited time. Like No elite specializations or Every day another class is banned or No boons etc. You could use the following feedback for your balance decisions.
  • Regarding the current meta, I see the main problem in Firebrands offering too much, leaving little room for other supports. As @God.2708 wrote, they are heal and prot monk rolled into one. So mb tune down their heal output. The need for an additional dedicated healer/hybrid build would obviously also tone down the offensive power of a zerg. On a side note, DPS builds usually need some sort of trade-off between damage and sustain and I love tweaking a build to my playstyle. This isn't the case for supports, however, because the perfect stat combination exists in Minstrel's. So I'd recommend changing/removing Minstrel stats from the game so that a trade-off between heal, boon duration and durability becomes necessary.
  • Of all the zerg DPS classes, I enjoy Weaver the least. One reason is that Ele relies on fast reaction times and therefore suffers more in high ping environments (at least give Lava Font a cast time so I know when i have casted it while lagging). But the main reason is retaliation. It is usually the main source of incoming damage in a large fight, it is unavoidable and caused by the enemy supports (which is ridiculous in itself). It hurts Weaver more than any other class because of the low health pool and the usual distance to your healer, and it especially punishes good positioning of your spells. So please rework retaliation. One idea could be a one-time melee range counter attack when hit.
  • Finally, try to give Mesmer a spot in a zerg again, e.g. with 10 target null field or once again a trait for invulnerable phantasms.
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@Aizza.4950 said:

@Ragnarox.9601 said:yea nerf guardian/dh/ and especially FB cause if you play roamer you die 1v1 cause you killed those spec because FB is good in groups and garbage in solo situations. Aegis which is guardian exclusive you gave to other professions. Thats why I am not logging anymore into this game cause you killed my class with every balance update, and I would rather pay for other games cause you lack ppl who actual can balance things out. If you think guard/DH/Fb is good you should do some 1v1 tournaments inside your balance team and you will realize(finally) which class needs shaving in pure dmg but i think I would beat your game balance team with my thief which was never created nor played even with wrong traits and skills.

Any other Chrono fans wanna chime in and let him know what having your class destroyed really feels like?

Side note, I roam on DH and FB all the time and it’s faceroll easy to be successful. This is a you problem, not a design problem sorry.

I am roaming with Condi mirage also, its funny to see ppl melt in 5 secs. Satisfied?

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Acheron.4731" said:Nerf Mesmer

Nah, they need major buffs because that class was “destroyed”. We need to greatly buff both power and (those really weak) condition builds in a major way.

Chono needs mayor buff as it was destroyed... You are showing mirage and at that you are showing jazzman, which is quite good mesmer against non even bronze players or ocational silver player... Those people are there for pve or just started playing the game...

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@SloRules.3560 said:

@"Acheron.4731" said:Nerf Mesmer

Nah, they need major buffs because that class was “destroyed”. We need to greatly buff both power and (those really weak) condition builds in a major way.

Chono needs mayor buff as it was destroyed... You are showing mirage and at that you are showing jazzman, which is quite good mesmer against non even bronze players or ocational silver player... Those people are there for pve or just started playing the game...

So it’s not a problem with the profession being weak, it’s a player problem.

I have friends, and see players in-game, using all Mesmer builds and performing well. You’re not fooling anyone here.

And before you attempt another insult again... You should put that 1st video into context with my statement... “ Not fooling anyone acting as if Chronomancer, or the Mesmer profession, didn’t need adjusting...”. Pretending Mesmer wasn’t strong, as evidence in that video, is false. Pretending it didn’t need adjusting is false. Pretending Mesmer builds still aren’t strong is false.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

Not fooling anyone acting as if Chronomancer, or the Mesmer profession, didn’t need adjusting... Or pretending this class isn’t still powerful.

Well I want to refer you to the below post:

@XenesisII.1540 said:It needed nerfing, not massacred and left with one legit spec which everyone is still calling to also get massacred to the ground.

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Glad to have to aboard @"Cal Cohen.2358"

I'm very excited to see the time to kill window addressed.

Another topic maybe up for discussion would be traits being so valuable that it renders other traits in the same traitline suboptimal or even not usable in comparison.

Just one example, the scourge grandmaster line. Also, I'm only referring to small-scale (3-8 or 9) and large scale ( 10+) fights here. No 1v1s or 2v2s

  • Sand Savant is too good. Even when it was only 5 targets, the amount of area denial and pressure was just insane. You could make a choke insanely hot for little cost, and this increased your ability to generate downs. Amazing trait.

  • Demonic Lore is good. Necromancers has plentiful access to torment, and this amps that up, and adds some burning. Good damage, but this is dependent on the group you're fighting. If they have heavy firebrands or a scrapper or 2, this trait doesn't add much value to your scourge's ability to do damage. Why would I take a trait that is only conditionally good?

  • Feed from Corruption -- the meme counter to purity of purpose. Good trait, but again, suboptimal when it compares to the amount of downs you can generate and the area of damage you can hit with Sand Savant. Why would I take this over the previous 2? This to me almost seems like it could be a Major Master with an ICD built into it.

Having very strong trait synergies like this is good, as it allows classes to have distinct gameplay and very powerful, defined roles. But by having these insane traits with their massive flex modifications to gameplay leads other playstyles quickly dieing out and become suboptimal.

I believe looking at the synergies of traitlines classes deemed to be "too good" will (be one of many) answer why those classes are too good, and maybe open some creative ideas on how to address power creep and the time to kill. This could also be a way to really nail down the roles you guys on the balance team want classes to fill in competitive modes.

Cheers,Dr. Clutch McSwagDaddy

PS, with your big heavy elasticsearch backend -- it would be interesting to query and see what % of players take what traits on each class- If you have that data indexed -- because anyone who has used the Elastic stack knows that's the hardest part ?

Edit: @'d the correct account.

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Alright, I'm in a complaining mood, so here goes, salt and bias included:

-Certain rez skills and traits are overtuned and too easy to pull off in comparison to finishing. MI is probably the biggest offender. You gave the best support class with some of the already best hard rez potential a 1200 range skill that often will insta-rez the downed player. Why the kitten? Why did you nerf it so hard in PvP but not in WvW? Just another carry skill that favors the already poster child of support and allows for bad play to go unpunished. Pick off poorly positioned players from the zerg? LOLMI.-Passive invulns and defensive procs take away skillful play and allow players to get away with stuff that they shouldn't. I would love to see these deleted from every class. They take away the risk factor. Why start this crusade but not finish it? Sorry, but every time I see a defense Spellbreaker rush into the enemy zerg, pull off the bubble, and be able to get back to their group with barely a scratch, I lose hope in this game.-Might is too easily stacked and is simply too impactful. Perhaps just reduce the stat bonus in WvW so players can still stack high, but not have it be so impactful.-The damage-to-sustain ratio is way off on many builds. Builds like Boonbeast are an abomination to this game. Where does the high risk of running "glass" (lol) stats go when you can still have such ridiculous amounts of sustain?-Reflect potential is too high. I know nobody loves getting sniped by Rangers, but projectiles should be more viable in large groups than they currently are. Let's start by making FB ToC bubble block projectiles instead of reflect them.-There is too much AoE spam in this game. Scourge is the biggest offender with Sand Savant. With that said, I give the recent change to their shade mechanic a 2/10, even if I am selfishly glad they are easier food now.-Reduce Trailblazer and Minstrel to tri-stat. Either remove the toughness or the vitality. My wish would be for the toughness to be removed. These sets are too effective and create unfun tank builds.-Dodge spam is too high in the game mode. This is coming from somebody who often plays core Rev and can chain ridiculous amounts of dodges and Riposting Shadows. Energy sigil is the obvious go-to for any roamer simply because of how effective it is. Dodge food contributes to this too, amongst other things.-Permastealth is unhealthy, but the Marked mechanic is a lazy bandaid fix for it. As much as I abhor permastealth, I believe Watchtower should be removed (if not just the reveals the entire thing) as it unfairly invalidates certain playstyles. Encourage actual scouting, and better incentivize it.-Warclaw is still too forgiving. I would really like it to just be max OOC movement speed and have the border advantage removed, and perhaps have the endurance regen rate reduced. People complain about getting ganked while trying to return to the zerg, but that is a 100% valid playstyle and tactic. If you aren't built for small-scale combat, you should be punishable for it. Such is the nature of open world PvP. Warclaw still allows for players to get away with too much. On the topic of Warclaw, please normalize its damage so it is unaffected by stats and damage modifiers.

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Just one suggestion that might allow for more flexible balancing of WVW-specific things...

WVW-only food that can be bought in base. Take away the stat gain and add a utility to it, and design that utility to deal with one or more OP problems that tend to crop up as the WVW meta evolves. Maybe put the utility on a high cooldown, or have the food effect be fully consumed on use (or both). Maybe to discourage its use in blobs or zergs, have the food give off a nova effect that disables that same food for other characters. Rather than worry about tinkering with classes and risking taking away their identity, add counterplay to something OP within the food. If the food itself becomes meta, change it or discontinue selling it.

Here is purely an example: Let's say that there is a complaint that roamers are able to one-shot you with a rotation of their abilities. Possible solution: anytime you take 10% of your health in damage in one hit, you gain a stack of "desperate escape". At five stacks, you lose the ability to auto-attack but gain stability and superspeed for five seconds (ie: you can run the hell away). Food has the cancellation food-fart nova described above so that it can't be abused by zergs in a large engagement.

The numbers suggested are arbitrary, and could be buffed or nerfed from week to week. It'd be academic to keep track of what food is being bought and/or triggered, so you could look at stats at the end of the month and figure out what's being used too much or what's not being used enough.

This could conceivably be anything. Let's say some soulbeast build is out of control. There could be a food that provides damage mitigation against soulbeasts. Maybe there's a build that gets might stacks too quickly. You could proc a fast regeneration of health once per fight if you take three hits from somebody with 20+ stacks of might. Maybe stealth is too much of a problem. There could be a thorns effect for attacks that come from out of stealth.

And the big thing is that in the end it's just food. If it isn't working out, discontinue it.

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