Stealth Rework 2.0

[Sobx.1758]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Just remove stealth and give thieves and messmers compensation for it with something different. Stealth has always been a horrible mechanic plagued by the fact ontop of stealth the classes in question get other cool toys to play with ontop of stealth.

Give them bigger base hp, invuls, blocks, stab, resistance, retal, the works. That is what will probably happen. Gutting stealth will undoubtedly buff it in another direction that will make people scream endlessly into pillows lol.

Sorry, but the proposal doesn’t involve “gutting stealth”.

The post he answered to did.

Your proposed changes aren't really a valid solution either. The first one will either change the supposedly evasive/deceptive class' playstyle into a facetanking one or be simply irrelevant.The second one just guts the stealth and makes it unusable during fights for the classes that were balanced around it for the past 7 years. Overally seems to me like gutting stealth anyways.

[Dadnir.5038]

Personally I don't have any issue with stealth as it is. I'm perfectly fine with thiefs, mesmers, rangers, engineer and whatever profession having stealth using it to sneak around or simply save their live when things ain't going as expected.

What bother me is any kind of burst from stealth. If ANet just nerf damage done from stealth in PvP/WvW I'd be perfectly fine with stealth as it is right now.

Your suggestion doing the total opposite of that, I disagree with it.

[kash.9213]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Personally I don't have any issue with stealth as it is. I'm perfectly fine with thiefs, mesmers, rangers, engineer and whatever profession having stealth using it to sneak around or simply save their live when things ain't going as expected.

What bother me is any kind of burst from stealth. If ANet just nerf damage done from stealth in PvP/WvW I'd be perfectly fine with stealth as it is right now.

Your suggestion doing the total opposite of that, I disagree with it.

Why would I stealth if my Stealth Attack wasn't useful? I'm not stealthing to you to have a conversation. If you're a dev and you want to gut Stealth Attack damage then let it take all of your boons and passives and then buff Revealed Training and make that and Flickering Shadows baseline.

[Dadnir.5038]

@kash.9213 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Personally I don't have any issue with stealth as it is. I'm perfectly fine with thiefs, mesmers, rangers, engineer and whatever profession having stealth using it to sneak around or simply save their live when things ain't going as expected.

What bother me is any kind of burst from stealth. If ANet just nerf damage done from stealth in PvP/WvW I'd be perfectly fine with stealth as it is right now.

Your suggestion doing the total opposite of that, I disagree with it.

Why would I stealth if my Stealth Attack wasn't useful? I'm not stealthing to you to have a conversation. If you're a dev and you want to gut Stealth Attack damage then let it take all of your boons and passives and then buff Revealed Training and make that and Flickering Shadows baseline.

People main issue is that the TTK (time to kill) is ridiculously low at the moment. Do you really think that being one shot by someone that is stealth is fun? You certainly think that killing someone this way is fun but it's not for the one killed. There is no fight, just someone that you don't even see that downed you in an instant and then stomp you.

I'm not a dev and to be honest I despised how the dev have "balanced" their game up to now. They are always focusing on numbers when the mechanisms are flawed. Thiefs one shoting from stealth have been an issue and source of complains since the vanilla game and it is the main reason why the thiefs feel that they are always nerfed patchs after patchs. Their choice to lock burst damage behind stealth is the reason why the thief is nerfed, If you want to fix that you have to strike at the problem not make stupid number tweeks on traits or out of stealth weapon skill.

As for your question as why you'd stealth: "For defense, for mobility, to cleanse yourself, to heal yourself, to get out of jail... etc." This is already more reasons than enough for stealth to be valuable.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Dadnir.5038" said:As for your question as why you'd stealth: "For defense, for mobility, to cleanse yourself, to heal yourself, to get out of jail... etc." This is already more reasons than enough for stealth to be valuable.

It... really isn't. What would be the thief's identity then? A warrior that uses pseudo-stealth-but-not-really to mitigate the damage or just to pop out, lose fight and then stealth to run away (I mean.. "get out of jail")? I don't see the point.

[Swagger.1459]

I know some of you probably haven't ever experienced better stealth mechanics, and think mmo mechanics should be like console 1st person shooter games, so I want to shares some information to help educate gamers on better designs and thought processes around stealth mechanics for pvp modes in an mmo.

@"Swagger.1459" said:1- Inspiration from City of Heroes… A fully fleshed out Stealth and Stealth detection system where players could NOT go into stealth during combat…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

“A player or critter's Perception is simply the maximum distance, measured in feet, at which it can detect hostile targets. For players, it also affects the maximum distance at which targeted powers can be used against that enemy. Critters aren't limited this way. Once a critter becomes aggressive toward something, its AI remains aware of that target's exact location and can chase and attack it regardless of perception until it reverts to peaceful.

The Stealth of a target reduces the radius at which an enemy can see the target, making it possible for up-close sneak attacks. The Stalker archetype often relies on attacking from Hide, which is an alternate form of stealth unique to the Stalker archetype.Example: Normally, if Character stood 45 feet from a Troll, he would need a perception radius of 45 feet to notice she was there. If Character had a stealth radius of 35 feet, he would need a perception radius of 80 feet to detect her. Or in other words, Character could stand up to 10 feet away from the Troll and not be seen; however, the Troll would see her if she moved any closer.

If Character has as much stealth as, or more stealth than, the perception of the enemy, Character will be invisible no matter how close she gets.

Everything has some amount of perception to begin with. The exact amount varies greatly: Minion, pet, Mastermind henchmen (all tiers): 45 Lieutenant: 50 Boss, Elite Boss, Archvillain/Hero: 54 Turret, Giant Monster: 100 Sniper: 149 Player: 500Nothing has any stealth radius inherently. It must be granted by powers.

Notice that players have much higher perception than critters do. Because of this, all stealth powers have two values, one that applies to critters and one that applies to other players.”

“Snipers, like all enemies, will attack a character as soon as they can see the character (also called their "aggro radius") - if the character has no stealth, this means from 149 feet away instead of the standard 45 feet. This is due to their extra perception radius. They do not ignore stealth, they simply can see farther, canceling out some of the stealth radius a character may have.

However, there are enemies which ignore stealth. The enemy will not react to a player using no stealth from a further distance (as enemies with higher base perception, or perception buffs will), but as soon as a stealthed player is in range, the stealth-ignoring enemy will attack regardless. Enemies which ignore stealth completely include: Rikti Drones (including the Improved and Advanced Drones) Rularuu Sentries (all ranks: Watcher, Observer, and Overseer) Knives of Artemis

The enemies which ignore stealth all have their own legitimate reasons. Alien machines built with sophisticated scanners, otherworldly eyeball monsters, or tactical goggles, for example.

There are some enemies, most notably Longbow Eagles and some members of The Cabal that have a power called [Positioning] that makes these enemies appear to ignore stealth at times. These enemies are not meant to fight at melee range and Positioning forces them to move away from players. A side effect of this power is that it acts as a short range (8') Area of Effect attack. This "attack" forces stealth to suppress, allowing the enemy to see the player.”

“Stealthy opponents can be affected by powers even when they can't be detected. They simply can't be targeted. PBAoE powers can hit enemies if they're in the area, as can AoEs that are aimed at a spot on the ground. Targeted and cone AoEs can also hit hidden targets if aimed at visible ones close to them. A character can not assist a teammate that can see stealthy foes.”

“Here is an example listing of the perception bonuses or penalties granted by various powers. Note that Tactics applies its bonus to everyone on the team within line of sight and range. At least some powers that give perception bonuses vary their bonuses depending on character level. This listing is not necessarily complete.”……… GOES ON TO LIST THE SKILLS…

“All stealth powers stack with one exception: Toggle powers whose primary purpose is stealth. So, for example, if a character has Stealth from the Concealment Power Pool toggled on, and then toggle on Shadow Fall, then Concealment's Stealth will automatically toggle off. This is because both powers have a main focus of granting stealth radius.

This does not include powers which have a bonus stealth component, such as Super Speed or a a Stealth IO. So, for example, if a character has Concealment's Stealth toggled on (35 feet of Stealth in PvE) and then turns on Super Speed (35 feet) and turns on Sprint with a Stealth IO slotted into it (30 feet), then all three will remain on, for 100 feet of total stealth radius.”

Take note that every character, EVERY CLASS, had optional access to Stealth and Invisibility if so chosen.

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment.

”Grant InvisibilityGrants a targeted teammate Invisibility. The Invisibility lasts about 2 minutes. While your ally is Invisible, he probably will not be detected unless he attacks a target. If he attacks, he is still hard to see and maintains some bonus to Defense to all attacks. This power works with other Concealment related powers”

“InvisibilityYou can bend light around yourself to become invisible. While this power is active, you are almost impossible to detect. While invisible, you cannot attack and can only use powers that affect yourself; however, you do have a defense to all except Psionic attacks. This power will not work with other self-affecting Concealment related powers such as Stealth or Shadow Fall. Purchasing Invisibility requires the user to be level 14 and possess Stealth or Grant Invisibility.”

“StealthYou blend into your environment and can only be seen at very close range. Even if discovered, you are hard to see and have a bonus to Defense from all attacks. If, however, you attack while using this power, you will be discovered and will lose your Stealth and some of your Defense bonus. While Stealthy, your movement is Slowed. Stealth will not work with any other form of Concealment power such as Shadow Fall or Steamy Mist. Very low Endurance cost.”

*Stalkers, the “thief” class, were the only ones who could have the highest stacking stealth and invisibility values with an innate power called Hide… https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide.

2- Inspiration from Camelot Unchained…

https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Stealth

“Some of the main goals for the design of the stealth system were to ensure that it was fun, not overpowered, wouldn’t promote or encourage Stealther gank groups, did not have stunlocking, no easy on/easy off stealth, and no unlimited stealth + strong opener + vanish. Another very important was that stealth and stealth classes work well within the entirety of the RvR framework, and not simply be something that be narrowly designed for solo or small group encounters only.”

“The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:

• Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.• Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.• Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.• Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.• Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.• Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible.”

“Camouflage is useable by all classes.

Archer classes get “magically enhanced” camouflage. Camouflage effectiveness is determined by the garb and environment. Camouflage works by drastically increasing your concealment stat while in use.”

“Veilwalking is distinct from camouflage and concealment. Veilwalking is the Camelot Unchained term that best translates to traditional MMO "stealth", and is the primary mechanism for the Stealther trio. It involves the practitioner going into the Veil, and it is their presence in the Veil which provides these classes their stealth status. All in attempt to gain surprise, and/or build up resources in order to gain an advantage versus an opponent.

• Veilwalking duration is not permanent, but instead lasts a “long” time (further specifics have not been given as of yet).• Stealthers will be able to see other stealth classes while within the veil (the distances are unknown).• Stealthers will be able to see other player characters outside the veil. (the distances are unknown).• Stealthers will be immune to abilities from characters outside the veil unless they are specifically intended to target those within.

The longer the stealth classes remain within the Veil, the more damage they take when they emerge from the Veil. Estimates of damage are unknown. This is considered to be a balancing factor that allows CSE to give stealthers “strong openers”, and not force the stealthers to stand still to recover as was originally planned while unstealthing. This mechanic may or may not prove necessary and may not be kept (needs citation).

The more Stealthers within an area, the more Veil disturbance is created. Veil disturbance increases the damage taken while within the veil, and makes those inside easier to detect by creating more “noise” vs. the Detection statfromn their opponents. This noise is partially countered when many players help create background noise. This background noise will act as a mask to reduce the ease at which Stealthers are detected around larger fights. The results should be:

• 1 Stealther vs a single target : the Stealthers has normal stealth effectiveness.• Multiple Stealthers vs fewer targets: the Stealthers have reduced stealth effectiveness.• Multiple Stealthers in an area where multiple people are fighting: the Stealthers has normal stealth effectiveness.”

[Sobx.1758]

@Swagger.1459 said:I know some of you probably haven't ever experienced better stealth mechanics, and think mmo mechanics should be like console 1st person shooter games, so I want to shares some information to help educate gamers on better designs and thought processes around stealth mechanics for pvp modes in an mmo.

Sure, because it's everyone's first game ever that uses stealth mechanics. Also your wall of text seems pretty pointless -people comment on what you proposed in your first posts and that's what this thread is about, isn't it? And implementing what you proposed would be just bad.

[Swagger.1459]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:I know some of you probably haven't ever experienced better stealth mechanics, and think mmo mechanics should be like console 1st person shooter games, so I want to shares some information to help educate gamers on better designs and thought processes around stealth mechanics for pvp modes in an mmo.

Sure, because it's everyone's first game ever that uses stealth mechanics. Also your wall of text seems pretty pointless -people comment on what you proposed in your first posts and that's what this thread is about, isn't it? And implementing what you proposed would be just bad.

Seems like it.

It’s not pointless if it teaches some of you something.

I don’t see you putting up any better ideas. If you’re so good at pointing out what’s bad, then surely you could offer “good” suggestions?

[Sobx.1758]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:I know some of you probably haven't ever experienced better stealth mechanics, and think mmo mechanics should be like console 1st person shooter games, so I want to shares some information to help educate gamers on better designs and thought processes around stealth mechanics for pvp modes in an mmo.

Sure, because it's everyone's first game ever that uses stealth mechanics. Also your wall of text seems pretty pointless -people comment on what you proposed in your first posts and that's what this thread is about, isn't it? And implementing what you proposed would be just bad.

Seems like it.

It’s not pointless if it teaches some of you something.

Judging by your initial proposal, it didn't teach you anything, so I'm not sure about that... and sure as hell I'm not going through that wall of text :DEven moreso when you're linking the game that's not out yet (right?) AND it doesn't even fix what you complain about in the first place, so feel free to explain your point instead of copy-pasting wiki parts from some unreleased or half-dead games.

I don’t see you putting up any better ideas. If you’re so good at pointing out what’s bad, then surely you could offer “good” suggestions?

When I comment on ideas being bad (and, again, yours ARE bad), I'm in no way obligated to "come up with something better". You're doing the complaining here, all I would change about the gw2 stealth is put a harder cap on it so it can't be permanent.I'm also not sure if I'm "so good at pointing out what's bad", because you didn't bother answering to my post when I did, but instead you opted for copy pasting irrelevant wall of text after making some back-handed " some of you probably haven't ever experienced better stealth mechanics" comment.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:As for your question as why you'd stealth: "For defense, for mobility, to cleanse yourself, to heal yourself, to get out of jail... etc." This is already more reasons than enough for stealth to be valuable.

It... really isn't. What would be the thief's identity then? A warrior that uses pseudo-stealth-but-not-really to mitigate the damage or just to pop out, lose fight and then stealth to run away (I mean.. "get out of jail")? I don't see the point.

So, for you, the thief identity is "the guy that one shot other from stealth"?I'm sorry to disappoint you but this is not the "thief identity", this is just how thief is commonly played by thiefs players. The traitlines and skills offer a lot more than that. The thief is an infiltrator that goes in and out of combat relying on high mobility and stealth. Spiking players from stealth don't leave any room for a "fight" to be lost or won.Beside, what I said for stealth isn't only targeted to thiefs, it's also targeted to other professions like mesmer, ranger or even engineer. Stealth just shouldn't allow players to initiated spike damage.

[Sobx.1758]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:As for your question as why you'd stealth: "For defense, for mobility, to cleanse yourself, to heal yourself, to get out of jail... etc." This is already more reasons than enough for stealth to be valuable.

It... really isn't. What would be the thief's identity then? A warrior that uses pseudo-stealth-but-not-really to mitigate the damage or just to pop out, lose fight and then stealth to run away (I mean.. "get out of jail")? I don't see the point.

So, for you, the thief identity is "the guy that one shot other from stealth"?

If it's a 'glass' target then why not. Sure as hell it's not "just stealth to run away! get out of jail!".

I'm sorry to disappoint you but this is not the "thief identity", this is just how thief is commonly played by thiefs players. The traitlines and skills offer a lot more than that. The thief is an infiltrator that goes in and out of combat relying on high mobility and stealth. Spiking players from stealth don't leave any room for a "fight" to be lost or won.

Sorry to disappoint, but saying that its identity is "going in and out of stealth" while at the same time trying to make stealth irrelevant (or some kind of tank-ish utility skill?) just doesn't exactly hold up imo. And how is "spiking" players from stealth not part of it when they have ini system in place? I'd say correctly implemented ini system feeds on what you said -going in and out of fights using mobility and stealth. But making stealth some kind of tanking utility is a terrible concept.Just make a harsher cap on stealth stacking and that's all, when you get backstabbed after a thief stealths during a fight, it's kind of on you.

Beside, what I said for stealth isn't only targeted to thiefs, it's also targeted to other professions like mesmer, ranger or even engineer. Stealth just shouldn't allow players to initiated spike damage.

ok.

[SoulSin.5682]

@Swagger.1459 said:I don’t see you putting up any better ideas. If you’re so good at pointing out what’s bad, then surely you could offer “good” suggestions?

Better ideas for? There is no need to change something that is not broken.This is like making a post of how to nerf renegades when they are already one of the worst PvP classes of the game.

It's you who want to nerf stealth, please bring the table better arguments.

[Swagger.1459]

All I’m reading are words of those fearful of some balance being brought to stealth mechanics, since we now have a stronger set of eyes on competitive balancing for wvw and spvp.

[Sobx.1758]

@Swagger.1459 said:All I’m reading are words of those fearful of some balance being brought to stealth mechanics, since we now have a stronger set of eyes on competitive balancing for wvw and spvp.

?

You still failed to answer to... literally anything. Great talk. :)

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

I like my suggestion better: just remove stealth altogether. It is so broken, it can not be fixed.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Just remove stealth and give thieves and messmers compensation for it with something different. Stealth has always been a horrible mechanic plagued by the fact ontop of stealth the classes in question get other cool toys to play with ontop of stealth.

Give them bigger base hp, invuls, blocks, stab, resistance, retal, the works. That is what will probably happen. Gutting stealth will undoubtedly buff it in another direction that will make people scream endlessly into pillows lol.

Sorry, but the proposal doesn’t involve “gutting stealth”.

The post he answered to did.

Your proposed changes aren't really a valid solution either. The first one will either change the supposedly evasive/deceptive class' playstyle into a facetanking one or be simply irrelevant.The second one just guts the stealth and makes it unusable during fights for the classes that were balanced around it for the past 7 years. Overally seems to me like gutting stealth anyways.

what balance are you speaking off? There is no 'balance' to thief or mesmer. A class with insane high burst, insane mobility, lots of dodges AND stealth so they can choose to end a fight whenever they want, is not balanced. It is an abomination.

Either nuke stealth or remove thief and mesmer. I am fine with either of the two.

[Swagger.1459]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:All I’m reading are words of those fearful of some balance being brought to stealth mechanics, since we now have a stronger set of eyes on competitive balancing for wvw and spvp.

?

You still failed to answer to... literally anything. Great talk. :)

Not sure what you’re expecting if you aren’t capable of being objective. And as far as I’m concerned, you don’t have any real input for balancing stealth. I mean, I get it, some of you are afraid of broken mechanics being fixed up. It’s pretty clear from your posts that game balance isn’t really a concern, it’s more about what’s in it for your toys. It’s easy to read between the lines here.

[Sobx.1758]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Just remove stealth and give thieves and messmers compensation for it with something different. Stealth has always been a horrible mechanic plagued by the fact ontop of stealth the classes in question get other cool toys to play with ontop of stealth.

Give them bigger base hp, invuls, blocks, stab, resistance, retal, the works. That is what will probably happen. Gutting stealth will undoubtedly buff it in another direction that will make people scream endlessly into pillows lol.

Sorry, but the proposal doesn’t involve “gutting stealth”.

The post he answered to did.

Your proposed changes aren't really a valid solution either. The first one will either change the supposedly evasive/deceptive class' playstyle into a facetanking one or be simply irrelevant.The second one just guts the stealth and makes it unusable during fights for the classes that were balanced around it for the past 7 years. Overally seems to me like gutting stealth anyways.

what balance are you speaking off? There is no 'balance' to thief or mesmer. A class with insane high burst, insane mobility, lots of dodges AND stealth so they can choose to end a fight whenever they want, is not balanced. It is an abomination.

...and yet you're not playing it/them?

Either nuke stealth or remove thief and mesmer. I am fine with either of the two.

Nah, thanks. :D

---

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:All I’m reading are words of those fearful of some balance being brought to stealth mechanics, since we now have a stronger set of eyes on competitive balancing for wvw and spvp.

?

You still failed to answer to... literally anything. Great talk. :)

Not sure what you’re expecting if you aren’t capable of being objective. And as far as I’m concerned, you don’t have any real input for balancing stealth. I mean, I get it, some of you are afraid of broken mechanics being fixed up. It’s pretty clear from your posts that game balance isn’t really a concern, it’s more about what’s in it for your toys. It’s easy to read between the lines here.

I'm at least as objective as you are. But I'm still answering to your posts, meanwhile you just skip anything that tells you you're wrong or your idea is bad and then try to copy-paste some dead games system while claiming people "don't know what good system is", lmao.And that's fine -lets assume I don't have "real input for balancing stealth", but then neither do you, so why are you still allowed to type but I'm not?

I'm not afraid of anything here and literally wrote that I'm not a fan of perma stealth. You have nothing valuable to write, I get it, but stop making things up and lying about people just because you have no answer to what was written in response to your posts. All you do is run away from the answer, so who's the one "scared" here?

[Swagger.1459]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Just remove stealth and give thieves and messmers compensation for it with something different. Stealth has always been a horrible mechanic plagued by the fact ontop of stealth the classes in question get other cool toys to play with ontop of stealth.

Give them bigger base hp, invuls, blocks, stab, resistance, retal, the works. That is what will probably happen. Gutting stealth will undoubtedly buff it in another direction that will make people scream endlessly into pillows lol.

Sorry, but the proposal doesn’t involve “gutting stealth”.

The post he answered to did.

Your proposed changes aren't really a valid solution either. The first one will either change the supposedly evasive/deceptive class' playstyle into a facetanking one or be simply irrelevant.The second one just guts the stealth and makes it unusable during fights for the classes that were balanced around it for the past 7 years. Overally seems to me like gutting stealth anyways.

what balance are you speaking off? There is no 'balance' to thief or mesmer. A class with insane high burst, insane mobility, lots of dodges AND stealth so they can choose to end a fight whenever they want, is not balanced. It is an abomination.

...and yet you're not playing it/them?

Either nuke stealth or remove thief and mesmer. I am fine with either of the two.

Nah, thanks. :D

---

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:All I’m reading are words of those fearful of some balance being brought to stealth mechanics, since we now have a stronger set of eyes on competitive balancing for wvw and spvp.

?

You still failed to answer to... literally anything. Great talk. :)

Not sure what you’re expecting if you aren’t capable of being objective. And as far as I’m concerned, you don’t have any real input for balancing stealth. I mean, I get it, some of you are afraid of broken mechanics being fixed up. It’s pretty clear from your posts that game balance isn’t really a concern, it’s more about what’s in it for your toys. It’s easy to read between the lines here.

I'm at least as objective as you are. But I'm still answering to your posts, meanwhile you just skip anything that tells you you're wrong or your idea is bad and then try to copy-paste some dead games system while claiming people "don't know what good system is", lmao.And that's fine -lets assume I don't have "real input for balancing stealth", but then neither do you, so why are you still allowed to type but I'm not?

I'm not afraid of anything here and literally wrote that I'm not a fan of perma stealth. You have nothing valuable to write, I get it, but stop making things up and lying about people just because you have no answer to what was written in response to your posts. All you do is run away from the answer, so who's the one "scared" here?

These are your question...

“Also your wall of text seems pretty pointless -people comment on what you proposed in your first posts and that's what this thread is about, isn't it?”

“Judging by your initial proposal, it didn't teach you anything, so I'm not sure about that... and sure as hell I'm not going through that wall of text. Even moreso when you're linking the game that's not out yet (right?)”

Those questions aren’t even worth a response considering they are pointless to the ideas in the thread. Also, all you’ve done is provide shallow response, and all you’ve really come up with as a rebuttal is to say they are “bad ideas”. Considering you can’t even produce a better set of ideas, it looks like you are fearful of balance. And I’m pretty sure the devs have an eye on thief too.

Also, I brought up old mechanics from 1 game and proposed mechanics from another game to illustrate some balanced stealth mechanics, yet you don’t want to read them and be objective, but you want those 2 questions answered?

If you think players are naive to the capabilities of thief, then you are mistaken. My buddies run around wvw 1 shotting people for fun from permastealth. We all know, including the devs, that happens in competitive play, and we all know the nerfs will be coming now. So you can try to be more objective if you want and come up with solutions to problems, or just continue to be part of the problem and wait for the nerf hammers to drop. Up to you pal.

[Sobx.1758]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Just remove stealth and give thieves and messmers compensation for it with something different. Stealth has always been a horrible mechanic plagued by the fact ontop of stealth the classes in question get other cool toys to play with ontop of stealth.

Give them bigger base hp, invuls, blocks, stab, resistance, retal, the works. That is what will probably happen. Gutting stealth will undoubtedly buff it in another direction that will make people scream endlessly into pillows lol.

Sorry, but the proposal doesn’t involve “gutting stealth”.

The post he answered to did.

Your proposed changes aren't really a valid solution either. The first one will either change the supposedly evasive/deceptive class' playstyle into a facetanking one or be simply irrelevant.The second one just guts the stealth and makes it unusable during fights for the classes that were balanced around it for the past 7 years. Overally seems to me like gutting stealth anyways.

what balance are you speaking off? There is no 'balance' to thief or mesmer. A class with insane high burst, insane mobility, lots of dodges AND stealth so they can choose to end a fight whenever they want, is not balanced. It is an abomination.

...and yet you're not playing it/them?

Either nuke stealth or remove thief and mesmer. I am fine with either of the two.

Nah, thanks. :D

---

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:All I’m reading are words of those fearful of some balance being brought to stealth mechanics, since we now have a stronger set of eyes on competitive balancing for wvw and spvp.

?

You still failed to answer to... literally anything. Great talk. :)

Not sure what you’re expecting if you aren’t capable of being objective. And as far as I’m concerned, you don’t have any real input for balancing stealth. I mean, I get it, some of you are afraid of broken mechanics being fixed up. It’s pretty clear from your posts that game balance isn’t really a concern, it’s more about what’s in it for your toys. It’s easy to read between the lines here.

I'm at least as objective as you are. But I'm still answering to your posts, meanwhile you just skip anything that tells you you're wrong or your idea is bad and then try to copy-paste some dead games system while claiming people "don't know what good system is", lmao.And that's fine -lets assume I don't have "real input for balancing stealth", but then neither do you, so why are you still allowed to type but I'm not?

I'm not afraid of anything here and literally wrote that I'm not a fan of perma stealth. You have nothing valuable to write, I get it, but stop making things up and lying about people just because you have no answer to what was written in response to your posts. All you do is run away from the answer, so who's the one "scared" here?

These are your question...

“Also your wall of text seems pretty pointless -people comment on what you proposed in your first posts and that's what this thread is about, isn't it?”

“Judging by your initial proposal, it didn't teach you anything, so I'm not sure about that... and sure as hell I'm not going through that wall of text. Even moreso when you're linking the game that's not out yet (right?)”

Those questions aren’t even worth a response considering they are pointless to the ideas in the thread. Also, all you’ve done is provide shallow response, and all you’ve really come up with as a rebuttal is to say they are “bad ideas”. Considering you can’t even produce a better set of ideas, it looks like you are fearful of balance. And I’m pretty sure the devs have an eye on thief too.

Also, I brought up old mechanics from 1 game and proposed mechanics from another game to illustrate some balanced stealth mechanics, yet you don’t want to read them and be objective, but you want those 2 questions answered?

If you think players are naive to the capabilities of thief, then you are mistaken. My buddies run around wvw 1 shotting people for fun from permastealth. We all know, including the devs, that happens in competitive play, and we all know the nerfs will be coming now. So you can try to be more objective if you want and come up with solutions to problems, or just continue to be part of the problem and wait for the nerf hammers to drop. Up to you pal.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1082097/#Comment_1082097

I commented on your ideas earlier and you skipped it while copy-pasting cutouts from -probably- wiki pages of mmos that are half-dead or still unreleased, so what's so surprising about my later answers to your posts moving away from your first post when that's what you did in your answers in the first place?

You made a statement, this is not a question... And I made my own statement, one you didn’t read, but you want direct replies to your statements and questions? Doesn’t work that way.

Who said anything about any "questions"? Weird fixation, but you "answer to posts", whether they are statements or questions, what do you mean it "doesn't work this way"? I understand that you're trying to be edgy here by trying to use my words, but you still literally answer to posts that aren't questions. At least you're supposed to. Also you dropped quite a bit from my previous post again.

Still waiting for the source of your "the nerfs are comming" claim. :)

Perhaps thinking beyond just using “bad ideas” as your input would be more helpful.

I wrote more than that, I told you why I think they are bad. What's your point here exactly?Aaaand lets remind you yet again that nobody is supposed to "come up with something better" just to be able to comment on your idea that's not needed in the first place.

[Swagger.1459]

@Sobx.1758 I’d suggest we keep this on topic.

If there is something interesting enough to discuss about stealth then I may reply, but I already gave my feedback.

[Swagger.1459]

I’ll be clear. I have 2 Thieves, and any objective players in the game know the issues with certain mechanics inside competitive modes, and not just on thief, but on all professions.

You should start reading the 2 recent dev threads and realize big changes are coming. Thief will not be immune to changes or adjusting.

[XenesisII.1540]

Protection - Reduces direct damage by 33%. It does not affect Condition Damage dealt by conditions or any other source of health loss.New overpowered boon - 20% damage reduction to Direct and Condition damages while in effect.

So does this new 20% damage mitigation also stack with protection? I'm sure that would be great for groups.Not that stealth needs anymore buffs at all.Also your sample is outdated, it's scrapper stealth these days, not mesmer mass invis.

WoW has better stealth mechanics than this game.

[Swagger.1459]

@XenesisII.1540 said:Protection - Reduces direct damage by 33%. It does not affect Condition Damage dealt by conditions or any other source of health loss.New overpowered boon - 20% damage reduction to Direct and Condition damages while in effect.

So does this new 20% damage mitigation also stack with protection? I'm sure that would be great for groups.Not that stealth needs anymore buffs at all.Also your sample is outdated, it's scrapper stealth these days, not mesmer mass invis.

WoW has better stealth mechanics than this game.

Could they stack? Probably. Could it be a boon that provides only condition damage reduction instead of both direct and condi? That could work too.

Regardless of what would be meta, stealth skills become more balanced for combat and provide an extra function that’s useful during combat situations.

[Sobx.1758]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:Protection - Reduces direct damage by 33%. It does not affect Condition Damage dealt by conditions or any other source of health loss.New overpowered boon - 20% damage reduction to Direct and Condition damages while in effect.

So does this new 20% damage mitigation also stack with protection? I'm sure that would be great for groups.Not that stealth needs anymore buffs at all.Also your sample is outdated, it's scrapper stealth these days, not mesmer mass invis.

WoW has better stealth mechanics than this game.

Could they stack? Probably. Could it be a boon that provides only condition damage reduction instead of both direct and condi? That could work too.

Regardless of what would be meta, stealth skills become more balanced for combat and provide an extra function that’s useful during combat situations.

Except that... Your first idea will either change the supposedly evasive/deceptive class' playstyle into a facetanking one or be simply irrelevant. It just doesn't work for thief.