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Let's Talk About PvP Balance


Cal Cohen.2358

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If you guys want to make Renegade summons viable, each summon should be a complete 100-0 or near 100-0 through sheer damage or overpowering effect causing a loss in combat effectiveness (cc or condition combos of some sort).

As it is right now for the summons to have their complete effect you are required to sit in them for their entire duration. Well, if you sit in them for the full duration now it’s negligible the effect they have, even more if there are multiple enemies standing in them.

It just falls flat logically. You have to outplay enemies so severe that you cause them to be inside of your non-snaring AOE for multiple seconds. Then, after the time passes the overall effect is equal to, or in reality, weaker than even instant casts.

It still fails after all the extreme, +333% damage increases some of the Renegade toolkit has seen for a reason.

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@viquing.8254 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said :Mirage Cloak: This is no longer usable while while under crowd control effects aside from daze.

@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said :: Evade while CCed is unfair.

  • Mirage (Their Condi application and power are fine, but their ability to produce an absurd amount of visual noise and bypass being CC'd through their dodge needs to stop. Give them clones or the ability to break though cc on dodge, not both)

Again where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).

@Crab Fear.1624 said :Probably should get rid of IH, that's like damage on dodge lol.Damage on dodge who can be rupted, blocked with obvious animation and max 4k damage (average 2k5.) often on the form of damage over time seems finer than what exist on someone else.

@ZDragon.3046 said :If thats the case i demand life force consumption for reaper be reverted immediately, skill 5 should be a reveal like is in core shroud skill 2 should blink you to your target and the auto attack should fire arc projectile if the target is not in range lets just ignore profession mechanic trade offs for the sake of defending your main class and pretend playstyle is the trade off.In that case I demand to have ambush on shatter instead of on evade then we can talk about no counterpart.I would actually welcome that change if clones only ambushed by using shatter command. IT gives the Mirage unique shatters and a trade off from core mesmer.Put ambush attacks with bonus effects on shatters and remove infinite horizon from the game all together. Clone ambush attacks are now balanced by shatter cooldownsThis is PROBABLY how it should have been from the get go.Mirage cloak shouldnt be doing so much when comboed with a trait like IH while providing freedome to cast without interruption.I'm not sure you imagine the survival buff of not having to evade to do damage and the obvious "mesmer op unkillable" post who will come with this change.And sorry but this is a gameplay change suggestion as opposed to a counterpart to highlight that I dunno why you biased your necro comparison while mixing the two when comparing to mesmer.Not to say that shatter will provide more overall ambush than current dodge uptime can...

@mortrialus.3062 said:I've played plenty of power mesmer, both core and mirage. Losing Mirage Cloak while CC'd isn't going to break Mirage. Mesmer is pretty spoiled for stunbreak options between Blink and Signet of Midnight. And even plenty of nonstunbreak options like Phase Retreat, Jaunt and Illusionary Ambush to move you out of danger while stunned and even things like F3 and F4, Mantra of Distraction can save you if you end up stunned.

False Oasis is just a biiiit too good of a heal for the sheer utility of it. It can be 100% covered by Mirage Cloak making it nearly impossible to interrupt, which is bad enough. But it grants both an evade through a mirror and enough vigor to get a bar of endurance after the 5 seconds the heal spends ticking. So using mirage Cloak isn't even a real investment of resources to ensure the heal happens. Shave a bit of the healing off because it is a bit too potent for all it's utility, 15% to 20%. Extend the cast time so everyone has an opportunity to interrupt it even with Mirage Cloak. It'd still be an amazing healing skill.

Dodge while stunned and Elusive Mind are fundamentally toxic interactions. And losing Dodge while stunned won't dumpster mirage like losing Illusionary Persona did for Chrono.I don't know that now power mesmer use staff, didn't see that since vanilla shatter.List me the class heal who can be rupt without be covered.Again, and for the moment nobody answer me :Where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).Once you prove me that someone can perform with this, we can talk about reworking mirage cloak.

This is like complaining that there are no good power thief builds that don't use improvisation and therefore they can't be nerfed.

Dodge while stunned is nonsense. Even from a Mirage vs. Mirage perspective. Consider a very likely scenario;

I engage another mirage in a fight. He casts Magic Bullet. I completely dodge his Magic Bullet. I cast Magic Bullet and hit him. He dodges while stunned negating any advantage I could have gained despite me landing a skill.

Do you not see anything wrong with this exchange? Despite me having two better plays, completely dodging his attack and also landing my own, we are still 100% completely even in terms of fight momentum. I gain zero advantage despite superior reaction and prediction. I don't even force a cooldown like blink. I have a similar exchange against a warrior and he feels threatened I can force him to use a Shake It Off which massive ly swings the fight in my favor as it should. That's why dodge on stun is fundamentally unhealthy.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed?

That everyone wants to make incompatible modes (Teamwork vs Me kill u & Me and friends kill u) work with the same game core.

Nerfing something that's OP in WvW means you're nerfing something I might rely on to get through the trash bobs more quickly in PvE, for example. Same seems to happen in the other direction. No one is happy.

Impossible suggestion all things considered- Making a pure competitive server with its own builds, and economy only partially connected to PvE side so the rewards can be passed across.

A bit more sane suggestion- Adding PvP/ WvW-only traitline that takes what each profession is good at and amplifying it. To put it another way, if everyone is OP no one is OP.

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@McPero.3287 said:Buff tankiness of players by increasing the value of HP given by vitality and armor by toughness. This nerfs healing and damage that are problematic. Increase cooldowns for most abilities.It should be the opposite.Nerf healing power scaling, direct dps and condition numbers in order to make HP, Vitality and Toughness be better more in comparison.We don't need higher numbers for survival, we need lower ones for player output.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said :Mirage Cloak: This is no longer usable while while under crowd control effects aside from daze.

@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said :: Evade while CCed is unfair.

  • Mirage (Their Condi application and power are fine, but their ability to produce an absurd amount of visual noise and bypass being CC'd through their dodge needs to stop. Give them clones or the ability to break though cc on dodge, not both)

Again where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).

@Crab Fear.1624 said :Probably should get rid of IH, that's like damage on dodge lol.Damage on dodge who can be rupted, blocked with obvious animation and max 4k damage (average 2k5.) often on the form of damage over time seems finer than what exist on someone else.

@ZDragon.3046 said :If thats the case i demand life force consumption for reaper be reverted immediately, skill 5 should be a reveal like is in core shroud skill 2 should blink you to your target and the auto attack should fire arc projectile if the target is not in range lets just ignore profession mechanic trade offs for the sake of defending your main class and pretend playstyle is the trade off.In that case I demand to have ambush on shatter instead of on evade then we can talk about no counterpart.I would actually welcome that change if clones only ambushed by using shatter command. IT gives the Mirage unique shatters and a trade off from core mesmer.Put ambush attacks with bonus effects on shatters and remove infinite horizon from the game all together. Clone ambush attacks are now balanced by shatter cooldownsThis is PROBABLY how it should have been from the get go.Mirage cloak shouldnt be doing so much when comboed with a trait like IH while providing freedome to cast without interruption.I'm not sure you imagine the survival buff of not having to evade to do damage and the obvious "mesmer op unkillable" post who will come with this change.And sorry but this is a gameplay change suggestion as opposed to a counterpart to highlight that I dunno why you biased your necro comparison while mixing the two when comparing to mesmer.Not to say that shatter will provide more overall ambush than current dodge uptime can...

@mortrialus.3062 said:I've played plenty of power mesmer, both core and mirage. Losing Mirage Cloak while CC'd isn't going to break Mirage. Mesmer is pretty spoiled for stunbreak options between Blink and Signet of Midnight. And even plenty of nonstunbreak options like Phase Retreat, Jaunt and Illusionary Ambush to move you out of danger while stunned and even things like F3 and F4, Mantra of Distraction can save you if you end up stunned.

False Oasis is just a biiiit too good of a heal for the sheer utility of it. It can be 100% covered by Mirage Cloak making it nearly impossible to interrupt, which is bad enough. But it grants both an evade through a mirror and enough vigor to get a bar of endurance after the 5 seconds the heal spends ticking. So using mirage Cloak isn't even a real investment of resources to ensure the heal happens. Shave a bit of the healing off because it is a bit too potent for all it's utility, 15% to 20%. Extend the cast time so everyone has an opportunity to interrupt it even with Mirage Cloak. It'd still be an amazing healing skill.

Dodge while stunned and Elusive Mind are fundamentally toxic interactions. And losing Dodge while stunned won't dumpster mirage like losing Illusionary Persona did for Chrono.I don't know that now power mesmer use staff, didn't see that since vanilla shatter.List me the class heal who can be rupt without be covered.Again, and for the moment nobody answer me :Where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).Once you prove me that someone can perform with this, we can talk about reworking mirage cloak.

This is like complaining that there are no good power thief builds that don't use improvisation and therefore they can't be nerfed.

Dodge while stunned is nonsense. Even from a Mirage vs. Mirage perspective. Consider a very likely scenario;

I engage another mirage in a fight. He casts Magic Bullet. I completely dodge his Magic Bullet. I cast Magic Bullet and hit him. He dodges while stunned negating any advantage I could have gained despite me landing a skill.

Do you not see anything wrong with this exchange? Despite me having two better plays, completely dodging his attack and also landing my own, we are still 100% completely even in terms of fight momentum. I gain zero advantage despite superior reaction and prediction. I don't even force a cooldown like blink. I have a similar exchange against a warrior and he feels threatened I can force him to use a Shake It Off which massive ly swings the fight in my favor as it should. That's why dodge on stun is fundamentally unhealthy.

now consider this scenario, I land magic bullet on mirage, then pistol 4, he dodges half of the ability so he takes half of the damage.I dodged his bullet, so I can los the channel, or use my own abilities to counter pressure.

Other classes have more CC removing tools or/and access to stability, I am actually yet to make soulbeast stunned in 1v1.And dont even get me started on holo with their corona + stability pot + block + invuln + potentially rampage.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said :Mirage Cloak: This is no longer usable while while under crowd control effects aside from daze.

@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said :: Evade while CCed is unfair.

  • Mirage (Their Condi application and power are fine, but their ability to produce an absurd amount of visual noise and bypass being CC'd through their dodge needs to stop. Give them clones or the ability to break though cc on dodge, not both)

Again where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).

@Crab Fear.1624 said :Probably should get rid of IH, that's like damage on dodge lol.Damage on dodge who can be rupted, blocked with obvious animation and max 4k damage (average 2k5.) often on the form of damage over time seems finer than what exist on someone else.

@ZDragon.3046 said :If thats the case i demand life force consumption for reaper be reverted immediately, skill 5 should be a reveal like is in core shroud skill 2 should blink you to your target and the auto attack should fire arc projectile if the target is not in range lets just ignore profession mechanic trade offs for the sake of defending your main class and pretend playstyle is the trade off.In that case I demand to have ambush on shatter instead of on evade then we can talk about no counterpart.I would actually welcome that change if clones only ambushed by using shatter command. IT gives the Mirage unique shatters and a trade off from core mesmer.Put ambush attacks with bonus effects on shatters and remove infinite horizon from the game all together. Clone ambush attacks are now balanced by shatter cooldownsThis is PROBABLY how it should have been from the get go.Mirage cloak shouldnt be doing so much when comboed with a trait like IH while providing freedome to cast without interruption.I'm not sure you imagine the survival buff of not having to evade to do damage and the obvious "mesmer op unkillable" post who will come with this change.And sorry but this is a gameplay change suggestion as opposed to a counterpart to highlight that I dunno why you biased your necro comparison while mixing the two when comparing to mesmer.Not to say that shatter will provide more overall ambush than current dodge uptime can...

@mortrialus.3062 said:I've played plenty of power mesmer, both core and mirage. Losing Mirage Cloak while CC'd isn't going to break Mirage. Mesmer is pretty spoiled for stunbreak options between Blink and Signet of Midnight. And even plenty of nonstunbreak options like Phase Retreat, Jaunt and Illusionary Ambush to move you out of danger while stunned and even things like F3 and F4, Mantra of Distraction can save you if you end up stunned.

False Oasis is just a biiiit too good of a heal for the sheer utility of it. It can be 100% covered by Mirage Cloak making it nearly impossible to interrupt, which is bad enough. But it grants both an evade through a mirror and enough vigor to get a bar of endurance after the 5 seconds the heal spends ticking. So using mirage Cloak isn't even a real investment of resources to ensure the heal happens. Shave a bit of the healing off because it is a bit too potent for all it's utility, 15% to 20%. Extend the cast time so everyone has an opportunity to interrupt it even with Mirage Cloak. It'd still be an amazing healing skill.

Dodge while stunned and Elusive Mind are fundamentally toxic interactions. And losing Dodge while stunned won't dumpster mirage like losing Illusionary Persona did for Chrono.I don't know that now power mesmer use staff, didn't see that since vanilla shatter.List me the class heal who can be rupt without be covered.Again, and for the moment nobody answer me :Where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).Once you prove me that someone can perform with this, we can talk about reworking mirage cloak.

This is like complaining that there are no good power thief builds that don't use improvisation and therefore they can't be nerfed.

Dodge while stunned is nonsense. Even from a Mirage vs. Mirage perspective. Consider a very likely scenario;

I engage another mirage in a fight. He casts Magic Bullet. I completely dodge his Magic Bullet. I cast Magic Bullet and hit him. He dodges while stunned negating any advantage I could have gained despite me landing a skill.

Do you not see anything wrong with this exchange? Despite me having two better plays, completely dodging his attack and also landing my own, we are still 100% completely even in terms of fight momentum. I gain zero advantage despite superior reaction and prediction. I don't even force a cooldown like blink. I have a similar exchange against a warrior and he feels threatened I can force him to use a Shake It Off which massive ly swings the fight in my favor as it should. That's why dodge on stun is fundamentally unhealthy.

Thats over simplifying the situation considering you should use auspisious anguish vs other mirages (or other condis) and facetank cc skills and dodging the follow up attack instead.Even many power builds have passive condis on them so its not worthy of dodging the cc.Im all for removing the trait and dodging while stunned though

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@Koen.1327 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said :Mirage Cloak: This is no longer usable while while under crowd control effects aside from daze.

@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said :: Evade while CCed is unfair.

  • Mirage (Their Condi application and power are fine, but their ability to produce an absurd amount of visual noise and bypass being CC'd through their dodge needs to stop. Give them clones or the ability to break though cc on dodge, not both)

Again where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).

@Crab Fear.1624 said :Probably should get rid of IH, that's like damage on dodge lol.Damage on dodge who can be rupted, blocked with obvious animation and max 4k damage (average 2k5.) often on the form of damage over time seems finer than what exist on someone else.

@ZDragon.3046 said :If thats the case i demand life force consumption for reaper be reverted immediately, skill 5 should be a reveal like is in core shroud skill 2 should blink you to your target and the auto attack should fire arc projectile if the target is not in range lets just ignore profession mechanic trade offs for the sake of defending your main class and pretend playstyle is the trade off.In that case I demand to have ambush on shatter instead of on evade then we can talk about no counterpart.I would actually welcome that change if clones only ambushed by using shatter command. IT gives the Mirage unique shatters and a trade off from core mesmer.Put ambush attacks with bonus effects on shatters and remove infinite horizon from the game all together. Clone ambush attacks are now balanced by shatter cooldownsThis is PROBABLY how it should have been from the get go.Mirage cloak shouldnt be doing so much when comboed with a trait like IH while providing freedome to cast without interruption.I'm not sure you imagine the survival buff of not having to evade to do damage and the obvious "mesmer op unkillable" post who will come with this change.And sorry but this is a gameplay change suggestion as opposed to a counterpart to highlight that I dunno why you biased your necro comparison while mixing the two when comparing to mesmer.Not to say that shatter will provide more overall ambush than current dodge uptime can...

@mortrialus.3062 said:I've played plenty of power mesmer, both core and mirage. Losing Mirage Cloak while CC'd isn't going to break Mirage. Mesmer is pretty spoiled for stunbreak options between Blink and Signet of Midnight. And even plenty of nonstunbreak options like Phase Retreat, Jaunt and Illusionary Ambush to move you out of danger while stunned and even things like F3 and F4, Mantra of Distraction can save you if you end up stunned.

False Oasis is just a biiiit too good of a heal for the sheer utility of it. It can be 100% covered by Mirage Cloak making it nearly impossible to interrupt, which is bad enough. But it grants both an evade through a mirror and enough vigor to get a bar of endurance after the 5 seconds the heal spends ticking. So using mirage Cloak isn't even a real investment of resources to ensure the heal happens. Shave a bit of the healing off because it is a bit too potent for all it's utility, 15% to 20%. Extend the cast time so everyone has an opportunity to interrupt it even with Mirage Cloak. It'd still be an amazing healing skill.

Dodge while stunned and Elusive Mind are fundamentally toxic interactions. And losing Dodge while stunned won't dumpster mirage like losing Illusionary Persona did for Chrono.I don't know that now power mesmer use staff, didn't see that since vanilla shatter.List me the class heal who can be rupt without be covered.Again, and for the moment nobody answer me :Where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).Once you prove me that someone can perform with this, we can talk about reworking mirage cloak.

This is like complaining that there are no good power thief builds that don't use improvisation and therefore they can't be nerfed.

Dodge while stunned is nonsense. Even from a Mirage vs. Mirage perspective. Consider a very likely scenario;

I engage another mirage in a fight. He casts Magic Bullet. I completely dodge his Magic Bullet. I cast Magic Bullet and hit him. He dodges while stunned negating any advantage I could have gained despite me landing a skill.

Do you not see anything wrong with this exchange? Despite me having two better plays, completely dodging his attack and also landing my own, we are still 100% completely even in terms of fight momentum. I gain zero advantage despite superior reaction and prediction. I don't even force a cooldown like blink. I have a similar exchange against a warrior and he feels threatened I can force him to use a Shake It Off which massive ly swings the fight in my favor as it should. That's why dodge on stun is fundamentally unhealthy.

Thats over simplifying the situation considering you should use auspisious anguish vs other mirages (or other condis) and facetank cc skills and dodging the follow up attack instead.Even many power builds have passive condis on them so its not worthy of dodging the cc.Im all for removing the trait and dodging while stunned though

im game for it too, what do we get in turn? or do we just keep nerfing shitty specs and leaving broken ones like holo/war untouched ?

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said :Mirage Cloak: This is no longer usable while while under crowd control effects aside from daze.

@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said :: Evade while CCed is unfair.

  • Mirage (Their Condi application and power are fine, but their ability to produce an absurd amount of visual noise and bypass being CC'd through their dodge needs to stop. Give them clones or the ability to break though cc on dodge, not both)

Again where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).

@Crab Fear.1624 said :Probably should get rid of IH, that's like damage on dodge lol.Damage on dodge who can be rupted, blocked with obvious animation and max 4k damage (average 2k5.) often on the form of damage over time seems finer than what exist on someone else.

@ZDragon.3046 said :If thats the case i demand life force consumption for reaper be reverted immediately, skill 5 should be a reveal like is in core shroud skill 2 should blink you to your target and the auto attack should fire arc projectile if the target is not in range lets just ignore profession mechanic trade offs for the sake of defending your main class and pretend playstyle is the trade off.In that case I demand to have ambush on shatter instead of on evade then we can talk about no counterpart.I would actually welcome that change if clones only ambushed by using shatter command. IT gives the Mirage unique shatters and a trade off from core mesmer.Put ambush attacks with bonus effects on shatters and remove infinite horizon from the game all together. Clone ambush attacks are now balanced by shatter cooldownsThis is PROBABLY how it should have been from the get go.Mirage cloak shouldnt be doing so much when comboed with a trait like IH while providing freedome to cast without interruption.I'm not sure you imagine the survival buff of not having to evade to do damage and the obvious "mesmer op unkillable" post who will come with this change.And sorry but this is a gameplay change suggestion as opposed to a counterpart to highlight that I dunno why you biased your necro comparison while mixing the two when comparing to mesmer.Not to say that shatter will provide more overall ambush than current dodge uptime can...

@mortrialus.3062 said:I've played plenty of power mesmer, both core and mirage. Losing Mirage Cloak while CC'd isn't going to break Mirage. Mesmer is pretty spoiled for stunbreak options between Blink and Signet of Midnight. And even plenty of nonstunbreak options like Phase Retreat, Jaunt and Illusionary Ambush to move you out of danger while stunned and even things like F3 and F4, Mantra of Distraction can save you if you end up stunned.

False Oasis is just a biiiit too good of a heal for the sheer utility of it. It can be 100% covered by Mirage Cloak making it nearly impossible to interrupt, which is bad enough. But it grants both an evade through a mirror and enough vigor to get a bar of endurance after the 5 seconds the heal spends ticking. So using mirage Cloak isn't even a real investment of resources to ensure the heal happens. Shave a bit of the healing off because it is a bit too potent for all it's utility, 15% to 20%. Extend the cast time so everyone has an opportunity to interrupt it even with Mirage Cloak. It'd still be an amazing healing skill.

Dodge while stunned and Elusive Mind are fundamentally toxic interactions. And losing Dodge while stunned won't dumpster mirage like losing Illusionary Persona did for Chrono.I don't know that now power mesmer use staff, didn't see that since vanilla shatter.List me the class heal who can be rupt without be covered.Again, and for the moment nobody answer me :Where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).Once you prove me that someone can perform with this, we can talk about reworking mirage cloak.

This is like complaining that there are no good power thief builds that don't use improvisation and therefore they can't be nerfed.

Dodge while stunned is nonsense. Even from a Mirage vs. Mirage perspective. Consider a very likely scenario;

I engage another mirage in a fight. He casts Magic Bullet. I completely dodge his Magic Bullet. I cast Magic Bullet and hit him. He dodges while stunned negating any advantage I could have gained despite me landing a skill.

Do you not see anything wrong with this exchange? Despite me having two better plays, completely dodging his attack and also landing my own, we are still 100% completely even in terms of fight momentum. I gain zero advantage despite superior reaction and prediction. I don't even force a cooldown like blink. I have a similar exchange against a warrior and he feels threatened I can force him to use a Shake It Off which massive ly swings the fight in my favor as it should. That's why dodge on stun is fundamentally unhealthy.

now consider this scenario, I land magic bullet on mirage, then pistol 4, he dodges half of the ability so he takes half of the damage.I dodged his bullet, so I can los the channel, or use my own abilities to counter pressure.

"What if I pwnd him afterwards?" doesn't counter a very clear example of how Mirage Cloak artificially compresses skill cap by negating the results of superior play in a way that is fundamentally unacceptable even in likely Mirage vs. Mirage scenarios.

Other classes have more CC removing tools or/and access to stability, I am actually yet to make soulbeast stunned in 1v1.And dont even get me started on holo with their corona + stability pot + block + invuln + potentially rampage.

"But what about x op class?" Doesnt justify unhealthy aspects of other classes. Holosmith deserves a ton of nerfs and I posted a list of what I think they should be earlier in the thread.

And both mesmer and mirage are absolutely spoiled rotten when it comes to survival options if they happen to get CC'd. That's not even remotely an issue.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said :Mirage Cloak: This is no longer usable while while under crowd control effects aside from daze.

@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said :: Evade while CCed is unfair.

  • Mirage (Their Condi application and power are fine, but their ability to produce an absurd amount of visual noise and bypass being CC'd through their dodge needs to stop. Give them clones or the ability to break though cc on dodge, not both)

Again where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).

@Crab Fear.1624 said :Probably should get rid of IH, that's like damage on dodge lol.Damage on dodge who can be rupted, blocked with obvious animation and max 4k damage (average 2k5.) often on the form of damage over time seems finer than what exist on someone else.

@ZDragon.3046 said :If thats the case i demand life force consumption for reaper be reverted immediately, skill 5 should be a reveal like is in core shroud skill 2 should blink you to your target and the auto attack should fire arc projectile if the target is not in range lets just ignore profession mechanic trade offs for the sake of defending your main class and pretend playstyle is the trade off.In that case I demand to have ambush on shatter instead of on evade then we can talk about no counterpart.I would actually welcome that change if clones only ambushed by using shatter command. IT gives the Mirage unique shatters and a trade off from core mesmer.Put ambush attacks with bonus effects on shatters and remove infinite horizon from the game all together. Clone ambush attacks are now balanced by shatter cooldownsThis is PROBABLY how it should have been from the get go.Mirage cloak shouldnt be doing so much when comboed with a trait like IH while providing freedome to cast without interruption.I'm not sure you imagine the survival buff of not having to evade to do damage and the obvious "mesmer op unkillable" post who will come with this change.And sorry but this is a gameplay change suggestion as opposed to a counterpart to highlight that I dunno why you biased your necro comparison while mixing the two when comparing to mesmer.Not to say that shatter will provide more overall ambush than current dodge uptime can...

@mortrialus.3062 said:I've played plenty of power mesmer, both core and mirage. Losing Mirage Cloak while CC'd isn't going to break Mirage. Mesmer is pretty spoiled for stunbreak options between Blink and Signet of Midnight. And even plenty of nonstunbreak options like Phase Retreat, Jaunt and Illusionary Ambush to move you out of danger while stunned and even things like F3 and F4, Mantra of Distraction can save you if you end up stunned.

False Oasis is just a biiiit too good of a heal for the sheer utility of it. It can be 100% covered by Mirage Cloak making it nearly impossible to interrupt, which is bad enough. But it grants both an evade through a mirror and enough vigor to get a bar of endurance after the 5 seconds the heal spends ticking. So using mirage Cloak isn't even a real investment of resources to ensure the heal happens. Shave a bit of the healing off because it is a bit too potent for all it's utility, 15% to 20%. Extend the cast time so everyone has an opportunity to interrupt it even with Mirage Cloak. It'd still be an amazing healing skill.

Dodge while stunned and Elusive Mind are fundamentally toxic interactions. And losing Dodge while stunned won't dumpster mirage like losing Illusionary Persona did for Chrono.I don't know that now power mesmer use staff, didn't see that since vanilla shatter.List me the class heal who can be rupt without be covered.Again, and for the moment nobody answer me :Where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).Once you prove me that someone can perform with this, we can talk about reworking mirage cloak.

This is like complaining that there are no good power thief builds that don't use improvisation and therefore they can't be nerfed.

Dodge while stunned is nonsense. Even from a Mirage vs. Mirage perspective. Consider a very likely scenario;

I engage another mirage in a fight. He casts Magic Bullet. I completely dodge his Magic Bullet. I cast Magic Bullet and hit him. He dodges while stunned negating any advantage I could have gained despite me landing a skill.

Do you not see anything wrong with this exchange? Despite me having two better plays, completely dodging his attack and also landing my own, we are still 100% completely even in terms of fight momentum. I gain zero advantage despite superior reaction and prediction. I don't even force a cooldown like blink. I have a similar exchange against a warrior and he feels threatened I can force him to use a Shake It Off which massive ly swings the fight in my favor as it should. That's why dodge on stun is fundamentally unhealthy.

now consider this scenario, I land magic bullet on mirage, then pistol 4, he dodges half of the ability so he takes half of the damage.I dodged his bullet, so I can los the channel, or use my own abilities to counter pressure.

"What if I pwnd him afterwards?" doesn't counter a very clear example of how Mirage Cloak artificially compresses skill cap by negating the results of superior play in a way that is fundamentally unacceptable even in likely Mirage vs. Mirage scenarios.

Other classes have more CC removing tools or/and access to stability, I am actually yet to make soulbeast stunned in 1v1.And dont even get me started on holo with their corona + stability pot + block + invuln + potentially rampage.

"But what about x op class?" Doesnt justify unhealthy aspects of other classes. Holosmith deserves a ton of nerfs and I posted a list of what I think they should be earlier in the thread.

And both mesmer and mirage are absolutely spoiled rotten when it comes to survival options if they happen to get CC'd. That's not even remotely an issue.

its not about X op class, i play also warrior and thief, and TBH on those classes I dont get to be stunned, ever. I just dodge eeverything and have 3 stun removal tools on each of them. Meanwhile mirage has to compensate with dodge, becouse the only good cc removing tool is blink, and somewhat sometimes signet of midnight.

in the scenario I described, you get to have a lead if you dodge the bullet, you just chose to ignore it, against other classes you dont get jack shit becouse they ignore cc 99% of the time anyways.

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@Elxdark.9702 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term:
What outliers do you see in the current meta?
Then think about the big picture:
What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed?

Hey there and Thank you for the Update.

I have to ask, are the sentences in
bold
ment as questions for the players or an example of what is the Team going to ask themselves when balancing/spliting?

Also, you say it should be focused mainly on splits, does it mean we should not expect changes to functionality of skills, but instead simple number tweaks?

Would
for example
, caping might stacks at 10 be considered a split or somewhat complicated change that is for now off the board?

For this post, these questions are for the players as discussion topics. They are also things that the team is discussing internally as we look toward these balance updates.

I want you all to focus on splits because those are the changes we can do with no impact on the rest of the game. If a split makes sense for PvP or WvW, we can just do it. Functionality changes require larger discussions about the impact on the whole game. We are starting discussions internally about things that are not addressable with numbers changes, because there are things that need a functional change but need to change for the sake of competitive modes.

Game mode-specific boon caps is something that we have talked about, but there are other ways that we can solve some of these problems. For the example of might, I'd want to look at the sources and durations of might applications. 25 might isn't necessarily a problem if it requires significant investment from multiple team members, but a single player self-stacking 25 might is something that probably shouldn't happen. There's also the possibility of splitting the effectiveness on a game mode basis.

im glad ur back at arenanet (:

but yea delete condi thief

Very near future release note:
  • Deadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison has been decreased from 2 to 1 in PvP only.We're not sure it's enough but hopefully a good start.

NO, please stop with this pattern of nerfing/buffing things, changes like these are why the game is totally unbearable today.

The trait is good at it is at the moment, it helps a lot of condi builds that are not even viable or good, the only one that is overperforming is condi s/d.Please instead of nerfing a trait/skill until it becomes garbage (like most of your balance patches) start looking at the bigger picture.

What's wrong here is sword #2 interaction with panic strike, and it has been long before PoF (remember condi thief ventari rev meta) you never removed condi thief, you just nerfed it and people realized core was better now it's the same, you nerfed core power and people realized condi thief is much better.

Remove the poison from panic strike, it's the easiest solution you can do, it will literally have 0 effect in any situation, what makes panic strike worth of choosing is first the other traits are worse and the immobilize effect is crucial in some situations for thieves (chasing) that's it, the poison is unnecessary so remove the poison and add anything else, boom you delete condi s/d thief for good and you don't nerf other condi builds.

I'd also touch Spider Venom. Might as well update thieves' venoms while at it (bring the rest, sans Basilisk, up to par). 6 stacks of poison for 5 people with 24-second duration is just too good for the "effort" it takes. This is where a lot of the burst people hate comes from, alongside Panic Strike.

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@"mortrialus.3062" said:This is like complaining that there are no good power thief builds that don't use improvisation and therefore they can't be nerfed.

Dodge while stunned is nonsense. Even from a Mirage vs. Mirage perspective. Consider a very likely scenario;

I engage another mirage in a fight. He casts Magic Bullet. I completely dodge his Magic Bullet. I cast Magic Bullet and hit him. He dodges while stunned negating any advantage I could have gained despite me landing a skill.

Do you not see anything wrong with this exchange? Despite me having two better plays, completely dodging his attack and also landing my own, we are still 100% completely even in terms of fight momentum. I gain zero advantage despite superior reaction and prediction. I don't even force a cooldown like blink. I have a similar exchange against a warrior and he feels threatened I can force him to use a Shake It Off which massive ly swings the fight in my favor as it should. That's why dodge on stun is fundamentally unhealthy.If you play better, you don't land magic bullet before make him burn his evade on other skill like scepter 3, sword 2 etc... Particulary considering they will have the mirror effect 2 sec after the first dodge.Even if he dodge during the bullet CC, a dodge duration didn't cover all the CC so he is much likely to use his second dodge or to be chained after the first dodge.Now as long as you face opponent that will bait you and load skill that can"t be predicted, it's another problem. (Basically, magic bullet can be anticipated and evaded even with no mirage cloak.)At least, a duel versus a condi mirage is way more about who use his condiclear at the right time than who evade at the right time considering this build is based on killing slowly by clone pressure more than with pistol burst who can be nullify in 1 clic.There is a reason there isn't viable core build since everytime. (Even during hellseth vanilla, he had to be babysited by his team to make it viable.) so it seems that even by being "spoiled rotten when it comes to survival options" it's not enough to make it work...

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@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:Ohh and something i want to add, before talking about balance, it is necessary to prepare the ideal environment for this balance, two things in my mind :

  • Queuing : make a Solo queu League who will reward people as a person who made the effort to be better than others and a Team League (5vs5) who reward people for their organisation and coordination as a whole team, no more duo who benefits just for some people (not the majority) and of course forget about 4vs4/ 3,5 vs 3,5 ideas....

  • MMR System : i'm sure in the past time when we've been a considerable number of ppl in pvp, the MMR system was good but now excuse me but it's a disaster, once you do your best to win 5-6 matchs in row, the system consider that you're able to handle the next match and as i except for supposedly balancing the odds, make your profile who are hypothetically "High" with 4 "Low" profiles VS 5 "medium" profils, mathematically maybe it's sound good but it doesn't take in charge the human's factor, weren't machines and losing 7-8 matchs after that it's not funny, not at all, it's juts push people to play 1-2 game per day and that's it to assure their ranking or playing at least Duo Q to limit the risks and who is unhealthy for solo Q players who are the majority in pvp i think.

Ps : As someone says here, someone from your team have to play the game more and more (not for the same reasons, i don't think you don't know how work the professions/compt. u created) but to know what people think about the changes you made/will make, here, in the forum, it's not even 5% of pvp population and it's always makes me laugh when someone says "community have voted in forum"..... maybe as real life you have to force people to connect to the forum to be sure you'll hear the voice of everyone :D

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@viquing.8254 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:This is like complaining that there are no good power thief builds that don't use improvisation and therefore they can't be nerfed.

Dodge while stunned is nonsense. Even from a Mirage vs. Mirage perspective. Consider a very likely scenario;

I engage another mirage in a fight. He casts Magic Bullet. I completely dodge his Magic Bullet. I cast Magic Bullet and hit him. He dodges while stunned negating any advantage I could have gained despite me landing a skill.

Do you not see anything wrong with this exchange? Despite me having two better plays, completely dodging his attack and also landing my own, we are still 100% completely even in terms of fight momentum. I gain zero advantage despite superior reaction and prediction. I don't even force a cooldown like blink. I have a similar exchange against a warrior and he feels threatened I can force him to use a Shake It Off which massive ly swings the fight in my favor as it should. That's why dodge on stun is fundamentally unhealthy.If you play better, you don't land magic bullet before make him burn his evade on other skill like scepter 3, sword 2 etc... Particulary considering they will have the mirror effect 2 sec after the first dodge.Even if he dodge during the bullet CC, a dodge duration didn't cover all the CC so he is much likely to use his second dodge or to be chained after the first dodge.Now as long as you face opponent that will bait you and load skill that can"t be predicted, it's another problem. (Basically, magic bullet can be anticipated and evaded even with no mirage cloak.)At least, a duel versus a condi mirage is way more about who use his condiclear at the right time than who evade at the right time considering this build is based on killing slowly by clone pressure more than with pistol burst who can be nullify in 1 clic.There is a reason there isn't viable core build since everytime. (Even during hellseth vanilla, he had to be babysited by his team to make it viable.) so it seems that even by being "spoiled rotten when it comes to survival options" it's not enough to make it work...

The point isn't that I struggle with Mirage vs Mirage. I don't and I don't need you lecturing me. I'm more than aware of how much you need to account for Mirage Cloak. The point is to show how fundamentally wrong dodging while stunned is in that it will take an exchange of blows where there should without a doubt be a person with a clear advantage and a clear disadvantage because of how the exchange played out and effectively nullify all of that and put them on more or less equal footing. That's fundamentally bad competitive design.

And you're so hung up on one thing I called problematic about Mirage as if it didn't also come with a laundry list of severe nerfs for the other professions and elite specializations too.

Right now every profession and every specialization has things that should be nerfed, things that should be buffed, and things that should be completely reworked from the ground up. That includes mesmer. That includes mirage.

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@JayAction.9056 said:If you guys want to make Renegade summons viable, each summon should be a complete 100-0 or near 100-0 through sheer damage or overpowering effect causing a loss in combat effectiveness (cc or condition combos of some sort).

As it is right now for the summons to have their complete effect you are required to sit in them for their entire duration. Well, if you sit in them for the full duration now it’s negligible the effect they have, even more if there are multiple enemies standing in them.

It just falls flat logically. You have to outplay enemies so severe that you cause them to be inside of your non-snaring AOE for multiple seconds. Then, after the time passes the overall effect is equal to, or in reality, weaker than even instant casts.

It still fails after all the extreme, +333% damage increases some of the Renegade toolkit has seen for a reason.

The stun break summon that dazes is the best one. Followed by the one that hits vulnerability on the foes. The other two are underwhelming, with the one that bleeds being the worst offender. It needs to do something else. The elite summon needs the amount of energy it uses shaved significantly then it will be ok. Renegade summons are more similar to guardians symbols if anything. They are suppose to be aoes you stand for benefit and to damage enemies.

And btw, I don't think Renegades are damage dealers in pvp at all. But healers. They have a REALLY interesting healing/support kit. And their summons synergize with the healing trait line quite well.

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@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term:
What outliers do you see in the current meta?
Then think about the big picture:
What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed?

Hey there and Thank you for the Update.

I have to ask, are the sentences in
bold
ment as questions for the players or an example of what is the Team going to ask themselves when balancing/spliting?

Also, you say it should be focused mainly on splits, does it mean we should not expect changes to functionality of skills, but instead simple number tweaks?

Would
for example
, caping might stacks at 10 be considered a split or somewhat complicated change that is for now off the board?

For this post, these questions are for the players as discussion topics. They are also things that the team is discussing internally as we look toward these balance updates.

I want you all to focus on splits because those are the changes we can do with no impact on the rest of the game. If a split makes sense for PvP or WvW, we can just do it. Functionality changes require larger discussions about the impact on the whole game. We are starting discussions internally about things that are not addressable with numbers changes, because there are things that need a functional change but need to change for the sake of competitive modes.

Game mode-specific boon caps is something that we have talked about, but there are other ways that we can solve some of these problems. For the example of might, I'd want to look at the sources and durations of might applications. 25 might isn't necessarily a problem if it requires significant investment from multiple team members, but a single player self-stacking 25 might is something that probably shouldn't happen. There's also the possibility of splitting the effectiveness on a game mode basis.

im glad ur back at arenanet (:

but yea delete condi thief

Very near future release note:
  • Deadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison has been decreased from 2 to 1 in PvP only.We're not sure it's enough but hopefully a good start.

NO, please stop with this pattern of nerfing/buffing things, changes like these are why the game is totally unbearable today.

The trait is good at it is at the moment, it helps a lot of condi builds that are not even viable or good, the only one that is overperforming is condi s/d.Please instead of nerfing a trait/skill until it becomes garbage (like most of your balance patches) start looking at the bigger picture.

What's wrong here is sword #2 interaction with panic strike, and it has been long before PoF (remember condi thief ventari rev meta) you never removed condi thief, you just nerfed it and people realized core was better now it's the same, you nerfed core power and people realized condi thief is much better.

Remove the poison from panic strike, it's the easiest solution you can do, it will literally have 0 effect in any situation, what makes panic strike worth of choosing is first the other traits are worse and the immobilize effect is crucial in some situations for thieves (chasing) that's it, the poison is unnecessary so remove the poison and add anything else, boom you delete condi s/d thief for good and you don't nerf other condi builds.

I'd also touch Spider Venom. Might as well update thieves' venoms while at it (bring the rest, sans Basilisk, up to par). 6 stacks of poison for 5 people with 24-second duration is just too good for the "effort" it takes. This is where a lot of the burst people hate comes from, alongside Panic Strike.

Thieves dont share support, they share damage.

firebrand can share a ton of boons and healing.

They can often provide it more often a thief sharing its venom.

If sharing is okay for other classes, it's okay for thief.

Getting 5 people to come together after the initial spawn is impossible.

Many times you got 1 or 2 players trying to be cool and not even wait at the door, so sharing with 5 people is a pve dream.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta?

Whatever outliers there are is whatever outliers the data and statistics says there are.Human emotions just get in the way, even if they are dev emotions, and just negatively impact the proper balancing choices.When I say this, I am referring to the definition of 'balance' in the strictest of senses.If you are asking for the player's subjective opinions of what outliers there are, you are already walking down the wrong road.The only exception is if you are only asking this question simply to pacify the player base, as would make sense since pretty much all the players who posted here, and then some, have already stated their opinions in the forums in the past.

Think outside of the current meta and instead about what you want the meta to look like from a power-level perspective.

Power is relative. If I dropped a character from an old school boxing game into gw2, of course it would get smashed. However, that boxing character is balanced for its game. The only thing that matters is the power to defense ratio.In this case, I think there should be a variety. Some classes and specializations have a higher power to defense ratio and some have a lower ones. Of course, power level also matters in terms of trait balance and trait line balance (example: one trait or trait line way more powerful than others).However, absolute power levels only matter with PvE.

This post is intentionally starting a broad discussion as a jumping off point into the new communication of the Systems team.

Then the Systems team really needs a good couple weeks to month or so looking at the old posts already on the forums since PoF launch, and not just the PvP forums, but all the class specific forums and WvW forum as well. Of course it wouldn't appear to be worth the investment now, but it would be in the future as that is the only proper way of doing it. There is simply no easy way around it-if you want to do it right.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Hi Everyone,

I wanted to clarify something from today’s blog post while also kicking off a discussion on a topic that’s near and dear to most competitive players: balance.

It’s important to understand that as competitive handles competitive balance, we will continue to primarily use skill splits in order to minimize the impact on the rest of the game. It’s certainly true that not all issues can be addressed through splits, and we will continue to work with the skills team to make sure we are making the right changes for the entire game when splitting is not a viable option.

Mini Balance Roadmap

We have identified the overall power of the game has become an issue and we wish to address this in the competitive game modes.

The next balance update is going to be smaller than usual. We want to make a handful of very targeted changes to address the biggest pain points in the current meta, but we also want to bank some time for bigger plans moving forward. For a future balance update, we are looking at major adjustments across the board. The goal is to re-establish what the overall power level for competitive modes, and then bring everything down to meet that. In true gw2 fashion, everything is on the table.

With that said, we’re not going to nerf just for the sake of nerfing. Every change should make sense, and every change should be working toward a bigger goal. This patch is still super early in development, so I don’t want to go into too much detail, but it’s definitely something we want to talk about more moving forward. As mentioned in the blog post, we want to keep the community involved early and often when it comes to balance.

So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta? Then think about the big picture: What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed? Think outside of the current meta and instead about what you want the meta to look like from a power-level perspective. Keep in mind that a majority of changes should be splits, but feel free to also call out issues that you feel cannot be addressed by splits.

This post is intentionally starting a broad discussion as a jumping off point into the new communication of the Systems team, but keep in mind that in the future our posts are generally going to be more targeted at specific issues as we won’t have as much time to handle giant discussions.

I wanted to keep this initial post fairly short, so please ask questions about anything that is unclear. Otherwise, let’s talk balance.

cmc

1) OUTLIERS

-Warrior is absolutely insane right now after all the nerfs other classes have received; their elite Rampage should be deleted or completely reworked; the passive sustain needs immediate attention and...please make sure that not class in game can reach and keep 25 might as easily as warrior right now

-Condi mirage....just rework Infinite Horizon, that's all really, the trait is super broken

2) CORE ISSUES

-Over dependance of elementalists on healing power since the launch of the game coupled with their lowest base HP makes for not great customization

-Core ranger pets should be either reworked or deleted, they're virtually useless outside PvE; they have extremely long CD on F1 skills with long cast times as further punishments, they can't keep up with moving targets ...this has been an issue since 2013

-Stealth counters are hard and few to come by...adding an elite that nulllify the already super rare counters...it's not really an ideal design choice

-Condis have become too bursty and this is something that even @Jon Peters mentioned before he left for Amazon and it's something you devs are well aware of

3) PERSONAL POWER LEVEL PERSPECTIVE

-The ability to stunlock/CC a target to death should be removed entirely, it's not fun for the recipient...there should be always at least one chance for the players , it should be not possible to chain CC back to back , in GW1 it was not possible to CC an already CCed target and that was smart game design , you had to cleverly space your CC skills and not just press everything on the keyboard like now

-Burst damage must be toned down together with sustain but in a 2:1 ratio , slowing down the game would be beneficial not only for vet players but also newcomers and potential players

-Every class should have something to work with in every gamemode , not necessarily meta...but competitive and enjoyable...right now that's not the case , the ranger class has almost nothing to work with both in PvP and WvW after numerous nerfs and adjustements

https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvWhttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

I really hope the new balance team will release "a little" their foot from the nerf pedal regarding rangers...they have received unjust nerfs (along with the justifed ones), the nerfs for druid went a tad too far

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take away all the passives, both defensive and offensive.take away rune stat bonuses.take away trait stat bonuses.tone down auto attack damage, while leaving a couple of hard hitting burst skills for each class.reduce might and damage mods across the board.nerf boon > condi durations.remove no counter play tactics such as infinite kite, evasion, sustain.for condi builds, give each class 1-2 damage condis they can burst with but remove cover condis.don't allow pve coefficients into competitive modes.buff weak traits, skills, and weapons.nerf vigor, quickness, and protection durations across the board.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:This is like complaining that there are no good power thief builds that don't use improvisation and therefore they can't be nerfed.

Dodge while stunned is nonsense. Even from a Mirage vs. Mirage perspective. Consider a very likely scenario;

I engage another mirage in a fight. He casts Magic Bullet. I completely dodge his Magic Bullet. I cast Magic Bullet and hit him. He dodges while stunned negating any advantage I could have gained despite me landing a skill.

Do you not see anything wrong with this exchange? Despite me having two better plays, completely dodging his attack and also landing my own, we are still 100% completely even in terms of fight momentum. I gain zero advantage despite superior reaction and prediction. I don't even force a cooldown like blink. I have a similar exchange against a warrior and he feels threatened I can force him to use a Shake It Off which massive ly swings the fight in my favor as it should. That's why dodge on stun is fundamentally unhealthy.If you play better, you don't land magic bullet before make him burn his evade on other skill like scepter 3, sword 2 etc... Particulary considering they will have the mirror effect 2 sec after the first dodge.Even if he dodge during the bullet CC, a dodge duration didn't cover all the CC so he is much likely to use his second dodge or to be chained after the first dodge.Now as long as you face opponent that will bait you and load skill that can"t be predicted, it's another problem. (Basically, magic bullet can be anticipated and evaded even with no mirage cloak.)At least, a duel versus a condi mirage is way more about who use his condiclear at the right time than who evade at the right time considering this build is based on killing slowly by clone pressure more than with pistol burst who can be nullify in 1 clic.There is a reason there isn't viable core build since everytime. (Even during hellseth vanilla, he had to be babysited by his team to make it viable.) so it seems that even by being "spoiled rotten when it comes to survival options" it's not enough to make it work...

The point isn't that I struggle with Mirage vs Mirage. I don't and I don't need you lecturing me. I'm more than aware of how much you need to account for Mirage Cloak. The point is to show how
fundamentally wrong
dodging while stunned is in that it will take an exchange of blows where there should without a doubt be a person with a
clear advantage
and a
clear disadvantage
because of how the exchange played out and effectively
nullify
all of that and put them on more or less equal footing. That's fundamentally bad competitive design.

And you're so hung up on one thing I called problematic about Mirage as if it didn't also come with a laundry list of severe nerfs for the other professions and elite specializations too.

Right now every profession and every specialization has things that should be nerfed, things that should be buffed, and things that should be completely reworked from the ground up. That includes mesmer. That includes mirage.

Sorry but we already get the arguments of : it's fine you can nerf this because everyone will be nerf, past patchs.The point is that core mesmer isn't viable with no PU and the gap between core mes and other class even considering nerf is way too large to touch mirage cloak atm whatever design it mean.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Lilyanna.9361" said:
  • Necro (What can I say? Again, with my limited knowledge, it relies on the team enough. It got slapped with nerfs since scourge was WAY out of hand for too long. Reaper is balanced imo. Core necro is also balanced but the fear chaining..EHHHH, I'm on the fence about it. Big time. I won't say nerf the tests, but keep an eye on their corrupting is all)

Here is where I disagree. Reaper is not balanced. its chill uptime and its destructive power is way too high. Coupled with quickness and it's just a monster. Reaper needs nerfs, and part of those nerfs lies in Axe 2 on necro and the reaper skills themselves, as well as the AoE ranged skill that can chill and take like half of your health down in one proc. Definitely not balanced at all.

Chill uptime from Reaper is actually pretty low. Even more so with all the condi clear in the game. The only class that really should notice issues from reapers chill are other necormancers and elementalist. Everything else is hardly effected. I dont even depend on chill in pvp anymore because its so minimal. A scourges cripplel was far more effective than a reapers chill but if you think it needs nerfs by all means take it... i really dont hinge on it lol i dont think most reapers do anymore.

8 seconds of chill is not low.

The destructive power is quite high? But on that note every other class hits equally as hard if not harder and faster. Some classses being able to do it with much more mobility at range and hard defenses and better sustain. But if you protest that Reapers power is too high then ill agree its too high so long as we can agree and understand that this means everyone else's destructive power is also too high if not even higher meaning everyone needs to have their power lowered by the same amount if not more.

Yes, it's quite high. As far as the other things, this is why I am also wanting them all to get nerfed, hence through my other discussions with others, I am for all of the nerfing going on.

Necromancers axe 2 does quite rather hard if you allow it to scratch you for its full duration that said its the only ranged power weapon if not the only main viable power weapon for necromancer. Considering the great sword is extremely slow and hits modestly hard but certainly not as hard as say a warriors greatsword or a rangers greatsword or has the defensive or mobile utility of either of those yeh... That said if you think the axe 2 is the issue then we must protest that all power weapons in the games need to have their main quick bursting skills reduced down quite a bit. Especially on the power weapons that offer alot more utility along side that damage.

Again, this is why everything is getting nerfed. I didn't say Warrior was balanced over necro. It's not. And I can't wait for it all to be nerfed.

In terms of the quickness i agree that needs to go that said base reaper shroud cannot stay as slow as it is at its base. Its pretty rough when you have limited mobility and have to walk into melee range only to not be able to complete even your basic auto attack in time to do damage before you take too much damage or the target retreats away. Thats not acceptable. I honestly believe the quickness was not meant to be a long term solution to fixing power reaper's shroud. The proper adjustment should have just been to sped up the shroud by a fair amount (just not to quickness levels)

Lastly.... I want to know what this ranged aoe skill is that applies chill and takes half of your hp in one proc so i can start using it. As some one who plays reaper alot could really use a skill like that till these changes came in.

If you are going to point out one of the lower end elites and or professions especially when it comes to terms of power damage and say its too strong when there are much more destructive power builds out there thats saying alot.

Once again i'll re-iterate. Necro is not my only beef. By "that's saying a lot", though, I am now curious as to what you mean by that. Enlighten me, I think this specific discussion will be quite fun.

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@mortrialus.3062, @viquing.8254

Guys, I see it both ways.I actually think Mortrialus's thought experiment of two mirages fighting is of some pretty good use.My only argumentation against it is when you are fighting a mirage, you can't have the same expectations you would have when fighting other classes, and this is likely where a lot of the frustration other people have when fighting mirages come from.

NormalExample: lets say that you are a new player that just switched over to gw2 from a simpler game. You may have god like reflexes and are able to dodge every single attack. However, the reality is that you DON'T want to dodge every single attack. If you even dodge the smaller attacks, you will loose all your dodges/cooldowns and not have them for the attacks that really matter. Therefore, this aspect may frustrate a new player that doesn't have a lot of experience with the game.

MirageExample: In Mortrialus's thought experiment, the correct thing for the mirage to do after he stunned the other mirage was to try to bait out the other player's dodge if you knew he had one. In fact, after the stunned mirage was stunned, the other mirage was probably on guard to expect a large attack to dodge anyway. Therefore, if you baited it out with a smaller attack, you could immediately follow up with a larger attack after the dodge and the mirage could perhaps be left defenseless. Mirages are fairly strong against cc, which IMO isn't necessarily a bad thing if it is properly balanced around it. However, what this means is instead of focussing on cc'ing a class like you would most others, you instead need to change your focus to baiting out dodges as that takes away a large portion of their cc damage avoidance, damage, and general damage avoidance all at the same time. (AoE damage is also a mirage weakness)

In fact, like my 'normal' example stated earlier, it may actually be better for a mirage to eat a stun or magic bullet 1v1 in the exact same way a wise, experienced player would do to eat a weaker attack. Although this may seem counterintuitive to many players just like eating a weaker attack would seem counterintuitive to non-gw2 players, it is important to know how a class functions and what their strengths and weaknesses are. If class X and class Y have different strengths and weaknesses, you can't expect to fight against both classes the exact same way and get exactly the same results. I think this is where a lot of frustration comes from. It's not like mirages have infinite dodges, therefore, they don't have an infinite amount of ways to avoid cc. Mirages are very strong with dodges. However, a mirage without any dodges left is very arguably much weaker comparatively than any other class without dodges, as it should be.

Finally, if this was a group fight, that second mirage that got stunned would still be at a disadvantage if there was another class with AoE in the picture since dodging while stun is not exactly the same as blink or another form of stun break. Although you can dodge an attack while stunned, you are a prime candidate for an attack, and especially an AoE attack, as soon as that .75 sec dodge wears out, as you still did not move an inch during that dodge.

Conclusion: the correct way to balance mirage is to use data and statistics. If it is over performing than it really needs to be looked at again asap. However, if it is not over performing than perhaps the bark of the wolf is worse than the bite. However, one thing I definitely would do with mirage is shift the condi damage from mirage cloak back to the player, just so IH isn't so powerful compared to the other traits.

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@Xstein.2187 said:@mortrialus.3062, @"viquing.8254"

Guys, I see it both ways.I actually think Mortrialus's thought experiment of two mirages fighting is of some pretty good use.My only argumentation against it is when you are fighting a mirage, you can't have the same expectations you would have when fighting other classes, and this is likely where a lot of the frustration other people have when fighting mirages come from.

NormalExample: lets say that you are a new player that just switched over to gw2 from a simpler game. You may have god like reflexes and are able to dodge every single attack. However, the reality is that you DON'T want to dodge every single attack. If you even dodge the smaller attacks, you will loose all your dodges/cooldowns and not have them for the attacks that really matter. Therefore, this aspect may frustrate a new player that doesn't have a lot of experience with the game.

MirageExample: In Mortrialus's thought experiment, the correct thing for the mirage to do after he stunned the other mirage was to try to bait out the other player's dodge if you knew he had one. In fact, after the stunned mirage was stunned, the other mirage was probably on guard to expect a large attack to dodge anyway. Therefore, if you baited it out with a smaller attack, you could immediately follow up with a larger attack after the dodge and the mirage could perhaps be left defenseless. Mirages are fairly strong against cc, which IMO isn't necessarily a bad thing if it is properly balanced around it. However, what this means is instead of focussing on cc'ing a class like you would most others, you instead need to change your focus to baiting out dodges as that takes away a large portion of their cc damage avoidance, damage, and general damage avoidance all at the same time. (AoE damage is also a mirage weakness)

In fact, like my 'normal' example stated earlier, it may actually be better for a mirage to eat a stun or magic bullet 1v1 in the exact same way a wise, experienced player would do to eat a weaker attack. Although this may seem counterintuitive to many players just like eating a weaker attack would seem counterintuitive to non-gw2 players, it is important to know how a class functions and what their strengths and weaknesses are. If class X and class Y have different strengths and weaknesses, you can't expect to fight against both classes the exact same way and get exactly the same results. I think this is where a lot of frustration comes from. It's not like mirages have infinite dodges, therefore, they don't have an infinite amount of ways to avoid cc. Mirages are very strong with dodges. However, a mirage without any dodges left is very arguably much weaker comparatively than any other class without dodges, as it should be.

Finally, if this was a group fight, that second mirage that got stunned would still be at a disadvantage if there was another class with AoE in the picture since dodging while stun is not exactly the same as blink or another form of stun break. Although you can dodge an attack while stunned, you are a prime candidate for an attack, and especially an AoE attack, as soon as that .75 sec dodge wears out, as you still did not move an inch during that dodge.

Conclusion: the correct way to balance mirage is to use data and statistics. If it is over performing than it really needs to be looked at again asap. However, if it is not over performing than perhaps the bark of the wolf is worse than the bite. However, one thing I definitely would do with mirage is shift the condi damage from mirage cloak back to the player, just so IH isn't so powerful compared to the other traits.

I agree with this point of view that as long as a method to succeed exists, despite it being apparently contrary to the "normal" rules as previously dictated by the game, then all is well.

In this case as long as endurance is limited (which it is from all the vigour nerfs etc), the slightly alternative process of forcing burning of endurance to open up windows to land burst is all good - especially as the ability for mirage to be able to sustain and recover from incurred damage is low, as it should be, as well as endurance additionally needing to be burnt to provide offence/damage output.

Either way it is how you guys at Anet see it - there are valid arguments for and against each perspective, so it is down to your vision for how things should be.

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@"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:It's truly rich.

Warriors, mesmers, thieves, engineers and guardians all pointing fingers at one another.

"You're the one playing the anti-fun spec, not me!"

When in reality, everything - on top of some fundamental changes - needs nerfs.

shhhhhh ... its 2015 all over againNow they have to agree if they need nerfs across the board , or buff up useless specs to see something new in meta.Regadles of the result i will bicker with the one that change his mind later on :PP

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