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Couldn't Aurene create more scions to replace the other Elder Dragons?


Daniel Handler.4816

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:I think Anet really need to flesh out the lore on this for clarity sake.If the Pale Tree seeds are indeed the same then wouldn't that make these Ancient trees a sentient species capable of spawning their own race as well?

No. The Pale Tree is a purified Blighting Tree. By corrupting these trees into blighting trees, they become dragon champions capable of spawning minions; by becoming purified, they remain capable of spawning minions but are no longer enslaved to Mordremoth's will.

Stonewood/Ancient Trees->[Corrupted by Mordremoth]->Blighting Trees->[Purified by unknown, likely Forgotten, means]->Pale Trees

Yes but Pale Tree was never corrupted, she was discovered as a seed and raised free from Mordremoths corruption.If Blighting trees are purified or at least severed from Mordremoths control what becomes of a prevoiusly non sentient being now being one with the ability to create it's own minions?Pale Tree had Ventari's teachings to provide her with a sense of morals.. but purified blighting trees in their entire existence as sentient beings have only ever known slavery under their master.It is very unlikely any remaining blighting trees would be anything like the Pale Tree, if anything they'd be more like their master.

@Teratus.2859 said:I have not seen this model, is it the same one used in the cutscene or was it added in with the recent patch for her little flyby moment?I'm not sure I would trust any mined models atm until we have a solid in game one to compare it too.

It has the same silhouette as the cinematic but is different, more fleshed out.
. This is a recently added model, but it seems to still be a WIP as some parts aren't so solidly detailed. Still, since it has the same silhouette as her S4 finale, and the skin is the same as her corruption, it's 100% Aurene.

That's pretty cool, I'd be happy with that model.

@Teratus.2859 said:Primordus is the real dragon of interest when it comes to size..Anet really went the full mile when they put his head in the game and give us a taste of how massive he is.Until that point I had convinced myself that Kralkatorrik was likely going to be the biggest of them since we'd seen Primordus in Gw1 and we'd also seen Kralkatorrik who was a litteral mountain range in that game.Kralkatorrik definitely came across as the most massive in Gw1 but Gw2 flipped that in LWS3 and give Primoruds a serious upgrade.Definitely made me excited to see what his whole body is going to look like.I only hope that the design change didn't sacrifice any prominent features of his art and original design.. namely his wings.It would be really disappointing if he'd been changed into more of a serpent or wurm like creature.I very much want to see him erupt from the earth at some point and fly through the sky spewing volcanic hellfire down on everything below.I still hold the view that Primordus' size upgrade makes no sense. The size would now imply that Primordus' movements would be collapsing Central Tyria by traveling across it, even if it was twice the depth of the Titan's Throat volcano.

And the design into a more generic crocodilian face is meh. Especially since the reason they gave for their redesign was "we never said that was Primordus in GW1". So now the rather cool, unique model (no wings, no forearms, just four tendrils, and four massive dorsal fins on its back, indicating that Primordus' body is that of a
swimming reptile
rather than flying) is seemingly being regulated to as a champion.

Maybe what we saw in Gw1 was Primordus hood ornament.. xD

It really doesn't make much sense does it that he's so big now unless we're overlooking something like the body that we've seen so far isn't actually his body but rather a construct or shell that he's created around his body to act on his behalf and protect him.I just pulled that idea out of nowhere but thinking about it... I kinda like it :D specially since unlike most other dragons, Primordus doesn't corrupt his minions, he creates them from fire and rock, in theory it wouldn't be to farfetche'd to think him capable of creating a collosal living shell like that.Would certainly be a surprise if we defeat this big crocodile like "Primordus" and then the real, smaller one erupts from it and flies away somewhere.

Anet might not have said "that is Primordus" in Gw1 but it certainly does say that in the Guidlwars 1 wiki."Thought to be a statue by the Asura,[1] the giant stone monument in the Depths of Tyria is in fact the dormant Elder Fire Dragon named Primordus."

I'll personally be very dissapointed if Primordus doesn't match up with that Gw1 design, even if that means he would technically be one of the smaller elder dragons.Much like how disappointed i'll be if Drakkar doesn't match with his Gw1 design either.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:Yes but Pale Tree was never corrupted, she was discovered as a seed and raised free from Mordremoths corruption.If Blighting trees are purified or at least severed from Mordremoths control what becomes of a prevoiusly non sentient being now being one with the ability to create it's own minions?

Of course the Pale Tree was once corrupted. It was corrupted as a seed. And purified as a seed. If the Pale Tree had never once been corrupted in its entire lifespan, then sylvari would not be "good mordrem", they would not "belong to the dragon", Mordremoth would not be "their home".

The entire premise of Heart of Thorns is that sylvari and the Pale Tree (and Malyck's Tree) are purified mordrem.

Pale Tree had Ventari's teachings to provide her with a sense of morals.. but purified blighting trees in their entire existence as sentient beings have only ever known slavery under their master.It is very unlikely any remaining blighting trees would be anything like the Pale Tree, if anything they'd be more like their master.

Right. It was the fact that the Pale Tree was purified that she could even deny Mordremoth, and therefore accept Ventari's Teachings. The Blighting Trees in HoT - those that weren't town down in the campaign (I believe every one was in their event chains) - could in theory be brought down the line of good, just as Glint was, but it'd take time and effort, and they'd only be able to because, as we see with the Unchained Risen in Siren's Landing, once the Elder Dragon dies so does their influence over the minions' free will.

Anet might not have said "that is Primordus" in Gw1 but it certainly does say that in the Guidlwars 1 wiki."Thought to be a statue by the Asura,[1] the giant stone monument in the Depths of Tyria is in fact the dormant Elder Fire Dragon named Primordus."

I'll personally be very dissapointed if Primordus doesn't match up with that Gw1 design, even if that means he would technically be one of the smaller elder dragons.Much like how disappointed i'll be if Drakkar doesn't match with his Gw1 design either.

In several interviews, Jeff Grubb, Ree Soesbee, and Scott McGough had all said at one point or another some variation of "that statue was Primordus". But in game dialogue, the closest we got was "Primordus slept in the chamber next to the Central Transfer Chamber and was used to power the asura gate network." Which is pretty much the same damn thing but apparently is enough wiggle room for new GW2 devs to redesign it.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:Setting aside the question of Aurene's physical and emotional maturity, which is itself creepy, we still have her hero's journey. I do not want to watch Aurene's hero journey culminate in compelled motherhood. Making the primary female character's most important trait be her womb is trite and more than a little bro-ey.

Geeze can you quit it with that nonsense? Using the word womb is crossing a line even for me. Go buy a pet gecko.

Glint wasn't compelled to have children. Not was it her most defining trait. It's not like people stop existing when they have have children. That is broey

How does the word womb cross the line? Would reproductive plumbing be easier for you to accept?

When talking to children about butterflies you just say eggs. Saying womb would be wrong on several levels. That word is specifically for mammals. And you are not only implying more about the situation than egg laying entails, you are also using an informal word typically used with humans for a creature that, in the child's eyes, may be a day old.

Actually Glint was compelled to have children. From her perspective the world needed her children and her perspective was accurate. Present day Tyria is in a crisis because the All has lost integrity and would be destroyed if another Elder dragon dies. If the only way to restore the All is with Aurene's children then for the survival of Tyria she is compelled to have children. What do we do if she is unwilling?

Now THAT is creepy, how about we not bring the word unwilling into this conversation. At no point in this discussion have I ever said it is the only solution, that it would work five times or even one. The vast majority of glints eggs never hatched even though she theoretically laid them for the purpose of replacing Elder Dragons.

Having a story revolve around motherhood isn't bad writing. It is exquisitely complex writing that frequently gets treated superficially. A story written by a committee that must justify the cost of every word can not do a hero's journey to motherhood justice.

Then don't make it revolve around that? Have the Pale Tree ascend so she is more than a mother for an infertile race. And have Aurene lay eggs but we have no way to bring them out of stasis.

Don't hide behind children. Aurene is not a butterfly, she is a self aware entity with agency. Despite your efforts she can not be reduced to her reproductive plumbing. If Aurene must save the world by having children we should deal with the implications beyond her physical ability to have children. If we can't deal with the implications, we shouldn't use motherhood as a deus ex.

You are genuinely confusing. If we can't bring Aurene's hypothetical eggs out of stasis, why have her lay them?

Aurene is not a human. She is a self aware entity that also chose to eat Joko and brand Caithe. What is one more taboo? She is not guaranteed to share any of your values, even if you personally find them to be important.

You cannot say to not reduce her to her plumbing and in the next breath say motherhood must be protected from dues ex. Either her parts are such a fraction of her identity that it is of no consequence. Or you are treating motherhood to a degree that demeans people who chose to end the process, or cannot begin in the first place. I don't see you championing the Pale Tree to do more than sit around and make children. Maybe start there first. Or don't because neither she, nor Glint, nor eventually Aurene are mothers any more than they are fathers.

Edit: all I'm saying is approach this from the standpoint people have different religious beliefs in game and out.

If you are willing to approach this from different standpoints, you must be willing to approach the consequences of using motherhood as a way to save the world. Telling stories about motherhood isn't a problem but telling a story of compulsory motherhood is a problem. Don't you dare pretend a mother who is faced with choosing between the end of the world and having children isn't under duress. Every Tyrian would be demanding control of her body. The only way you can use moral relativism to solve the dilemma of compelling Aurene's motherhood is to make Aurene and Tyrians not care.

Give us a story where Aurene's decision to become a mother is her's alone and her children don't have to be perfect.

edit: You are claiming I am making motherhood inconsequential or too sacred. There is nothing in what I am saving that should lead a rational person to assume I am. It should be clear that I am trying to get you see motherhood as a broad spectrum of premises and if we need Aurene's children then we are circling the premise of compulsion in bright red ink.

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I don't see how allowing other possible configurations for the All would be a significant retcon. Most of what would have to be retconned or be claimed as being a retcon, look like examples of the studio being vague. I don't see how the studio could offer anything big and new to the story or offer meaningful resolution without allowing for other configurations for the All where a more diverse population of Tyrians are involved.

Putting the remaining Elder Dragons to sleep is just so....meh; our hero's journey ends with a nap. Sticking with the six sphere configuration leaves Tyria at the mercy of Six beings; our hero's journey brings us back to almost the same position we started from. Using Aurene as the Crytal Dragon God comes across as a trick to avoid the Kormir effect and leaves us at the mercy of just one being; our hero's journey ends with us enthralled to a new god. I would prefer a story where Tyria is freed from the tyranny of the six sphere configuration and the concept of deities. All hail the 42 sphere or distributed ledger configuration.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:What does 3000 years mean? Were Tarir/Kesho werent built that long ago. The Pale Tree and Vlast definitely aren't that old.

Glint was purified by the Forgotten roughly 3,000 years ago (Glint has "
" and has
). As far as we can tell, it's also roughly near the end of the previous dragonrise (approximately from 10,000 to 1,5000 BE). But most importantly, it marks the known earliest point of the Forgotten's plan to replace the Elder Dragons.

Doesn't that assume Glint was cleansed after the Pale Tree?

Forced hibernation is an open plot thread. The question will always be what if that fails.

Not really. It's no more open than locking up a villain in prison after saving the day. It's a closed plot, even if it leaves the potential for a sequel. But the fact of the matter is that the plot is closed.

The question of it if fails need never be addressed. It need never be brought up in the minds of the readers. Only those beyond the 4th wall and invested in the story continuing and wanting a sequel would think of it.

And in a setting like Guild Wars, where the souls of the dead can return to wreck havok, there is no true means to close a plot thread. You say Kralkatorrik can't return because Aurene replaced him?
Bullshit.
His soul can still return to cause mayhem. So can Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's. Will they? No. Because they're closed threads, and retreading old stories is
boring
and no one wants that. Which is also why we will not be having more "how to train your Elder Dragon" rerun.

It is theoretically possible all of Nightfall was for not. But there was enough narrative detail to make it seem permanent. Ending this conflict with how this conflict began fails without the same amount of effort. Simple hibernation is not enough. You need to replace them, or purify them, or disable them.

If we have to raise more scions, I have a 95% confidence level that it will be a plot device used to put some members of Dragon's Watch on the bus and off-screen for a while, as ArenaNet has been doing for every storyline installment since Season 3 began, and when we see the scion and their chosen champion from Dragon's Watch, they'll be Vlast sized instead of an egg or infant.

Yes. You drop you Dragon type egg off at the Pokemon Day Care (Tarir) and have people routinely check on it. And don't come back till its grown after you finished the elite four.

Personally, I'm hoping for a "purifying a dragon champion", perhaps even Drakkar, rather than raising a scion from scratch.

I am wishing for Kuunavang to be more than a lesser dragon.

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@Psientist.6437 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:Setting aside the question of Aurene's physical and emotional maturity, which is itself creepy, we still have her hero's journey. I do not want to watch Aurene's hero journey culminate in compelled motherhood. Making the primary female character's most important trait be her womb is trite and more than a little bro-ey.

Geeze can you quit it with that nonsense? Using the word womb is crossing a line even for me. Go buy a pet gecko.

Glint wasn't compelled to have children. Not was it her most defining trait. It's not like people stop existing when they have have children. That is broey

How does the word womb cross the line? Would reproductive plumbing be easier for you to accept?

When talking to children about butterflies you just say eggs. Saying womb would be wrong on several levels. That word is specifically for mammals. And you are not only implying more about the situation than egg laying entails, you are also using an informal word typically used with humans for a creature that, in the child's eyes, may be a day old.

Actually Glint was compelled to have children. From her perspective the world needed her children and her perspective was accurate. Present day Tyria is in a crisis because the All has lost integrity and would be destroyed if another Elder dragon dies. If the only way to restore the All is with Aurene's children then for the survival of Tyria she is compelled to have children. What do we do if she is unwilling?

Now THAT is creepy, how about we not bring the word unwilling into this conversation. At no point in this discussion have I ever said it is the only solution, that it would work five times or even one. The vast majority of glints eggs never hatched even though she theoretically laid them for the purpose of replacing Elder Dragons.

Having a story revolve around motherhood isn't bad writing. It is exquisitely complex writing that frequently gets treated superficially. A story written by a committee that must justify the cost of every word can not do a hero's journey to motherhood justice.

Then don't make it revolve around that? Have the Pale Tree ascend so she is more than a mother for an infertile race. And have Aurene lay eggs but we have no way to bring them out of stasis.

Don't hide behind children. Aurene is not a butterfly, she is a self aware entity with agency. Despite your efforts she can not be reduced to her reproductive plumbing. If Aurene must save the world by having children we should deal with the implications beyond her physical ability to have children. If we can't deal with the implications, we shouldn't use motherhood as a deus ex.

You are genuinely confusing. If we can't bring Aurene's hypothetical eggs out of stasis, why have her lay them?

Aurene is not a human. She is a self aware entity that also chose to eat Joko and brand Caithe. What is one more taboo? She is not guaranteed to share any of your values, even if you personally find them to be important.

You cannot say to not reduce her to her plumbing and in the next breath say motherhood must be protected from dues ex. Either her parts are such a fraction of her identity that it is of no consequence. Or you are treating motherhood to a degree that demeans people who chose to end the process, or cannot begin in the first place. I don't see you championing the Pale Tree to do more than sit around and make children. Maybe start there first. Or don't because neither she, nor Glint, nor eventually Aurene are mothers any more than they are fathers.

Edit: all I'm saying is approach this from the standpoint people have different religious beliefs in game and out.

If you are willing to approach this from different standpoints, you must be willing to approach the consequences of using motherhood as a way to save the world. Telling stories about motherhood isn't a problem but telling a story of compulsory motherhood is a problem. Don't you dare pretend a mother who is faced with choosing between the end of the world and having children isn't under duress. Every Tyrian would be demanding control of her body. The only way you can use moral relativism to solve the dilemma of compelling Aurene's motherhood is to make Aurene and Tyrians not care.

Give us a story where Aurene's decision to become a mother is her's alone and her children don't have to be perfect.

edit: You are claiming I am making motherhood inconsequential or too sacred. There is nothing in what I am saving that should lead a rational person to assume I am. It should be clear that I am trying to get you see motherhood as a broad spectrum of premises and if we
need
Aurene's children then we are circling the premise of compulsion in bright red ink.

Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodents used motherhood to eat.

But she is beyond that definition. Her "mother" actually experienced motherhood, or fatherhood, or both, or neither. Aurene cannot be compelled into motherhood unless she applies that term, and all of its weights, to herself. She can feel pressure to have children. But what that means is up to her, and subsequently the writers, not us. Projecting humanoid feelings onto her only leads to more retching. And they have already used eating Joko, and Branding, to show she is not like us.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodent's used motherhood to eat.

Glint, and possibly Aurene will experience motherhood and fatherhood and neither. Using human morality is not a given.

The narrative isn't being written for rodents nor dragons, but for humans.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:What does 3000 years mean? Were Tarir/Kesho werent built that long ago. The Pale Tree and Vlast definitely aren't that old.

Glint was purified by the Forgotten roughly 3,000 years ago (Glint has "
" and has
). As far as we can tell, it's also roughly near the end of the previous dragonrise (approximately from 10,000 to 1,5000 BE). But most importantly, it marks the known earliest point of the Forgotten's plan to replace the Elder Dragons.

Doesn't that assume Glint was cleansed after the Pale Tree?In technicality, yes, the theory would be that the cave of seeds was purified and put into some form of stasis, then Glint was purified and hid the remaining races from the last ravages of the Elder Dragons.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:It is theoretically possible all of Nightfall was for not. But there was enough narrative detail to make it seem permanent. Ending this conflict with how this conflict began fails without the same amount of effort. Simple hibernation is not enough. You need to replace them, or purify them, or disable them.

Hibernation in this scenario is disabling them though.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:If we have to raise more scions, I have a 95% confidence level that it will be a plot device used to put some members of Dragon's Watch on the bus and off-screen for a while, as ArenaNet has been doing for every storyline installment since Season 3 began, and when we see the scion and their chosen champion from Dragon's Watch, they'll be Vlast sized instead of an egg or infant.

Yes. You drop you Dragon type egg off at the Pokemon Day Care (Tarir) and have people routinely check on it. And don't come back till its grown after you finished the elite four.

Shouldn't be Tarir since the entire purpose of Tarir was to be next to Mordremoth (presumably to replace Mordremoth on his death). But that's not really what I was disagreeing with and finding distasteful. It was "Aurene has children to save the world" because it's just too damn convenient, and too damn controversial. You got her age, you got "forced motherhood to save the world", and so forth. It just wouldn't sit well with too many members of the audience.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Personally, I'm hoping for a "purifying a dragon champion", perhaps even Drakkar, rather than raising a scion from scratch.

I am wishing for Kuunavang to be more than a lesser dragon.

To me, it wouldn't make sense. She's not even close to elemental in appearance, unlike every other scion or dragon champion we've seen. If they didn't write lesser dragons as being incapable of becoming Elder Dragons, she could work - she's worked with mortals long enough and don't outright hate them; a worthy replacement that could go evil in the future for another game's plot. But with the whole "lesser dragons can't become Elder Dragons", and Kuunavang not having anything that really ties to anything Elder Dragon-like, it seems very unlikely.

Unless the deep sea dragon is secretly some sort of Elder Star Dragon.

Plus, the possibility of visiting Cantha in GW2 is still well beyond the horizon of visible plot directions.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:What does 3000 years mean? Were Tarir/Kesho werent built that long ago. The Pale Tree and Vlast definitely aren't that old.

Glint was purified by the Forgotten roughly 3,000 years ago (Glint has "
" and has
). As far as we can tell, it's also roughly near the end of the previous dragonrise (approximately from 10,000 to 1,5000 BE). But most importantly, it marks the known earliest point of the Forgotten's plan to replace the Elder Dragons.

Doesn't that assume Glint was cleansed after the Pale Tree?In technicality, yes, the theory would be that the cave of seeds was purified and put into some form of stasis, then Glint was purified and hid the remaining races from the last ravages of the Elder Dragons.

Tarir is built like 50 years or less from when the Pale Tree's cave was discovered. From that chronology it seems like it was part of Plan A they didn't implement before disappearing.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:It is theoretically possible all of Nightfall was for not. But there was enough narrative detail to make it seem permanent. Ending this conflict with how this conflict began fails without the same amount of effort. Simple hibernation is not enough. You need to replace them, or purify them, or disable them.

Hibernation in this scenario
is
disabling them though.

I am trying to come up with a PC version of a word and failing. So I'll just say like methods involving males becoming infertile, I mean disabling them in a way they cannot recover from. In some way that no amount of magic would ever wake them. It needs to be something as harsh as a God being murdered and absorbed or I'm not taking it seriously. Especially when they started the conflict with them leaving slumber.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:If we have to raise more scions, I have a 95% confidence level that it will be a plot device used to put some members of Dragon's Watch on the bus and off-screen for a while, as ArenaNet has been doing for every storyline installment since Season 3 began, and when we see the scion and their chosen champion from Dragon's Watch, they'll be Vlast sized instead of an egg or infant.

Yes. You drop you Dragon type egg off at the Pokemon Day Care (Tarir) and have people routinely check on it. And don't come back till its grown after you finished the elite four.

Shouldn't be Tarir since the entire purpose of Tarir was to be next to Mordremoth (presumably to replace Mordremoth on his death). But that's not really what I was disagreeing with and finding distasteful. It was "Aurene has children to save the world" because it's just too kitten convenient, and too kitten controversial. You got her age, you got "forced motherhood to save the world", and so forth. It just wouldn't sit well with too many members of the audience.

I am aware that people project onto Aurene. And perhaps that is what they want. But I could see it going the other way. They felt comfortable telling us about Sylvari getting it on. If you dehumanize Aurene further than her eating humanoids, it could work.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Personally, I'm hoping for a "purifying a dragon champion", perhaps even Drakkar, rather than raising a scion from scratch.

I am wishing for Kuunavang to be more than a lesser dragon.

To me, it wouldn't make sense. She's not even close to elemental in appearance, unlike every other scion or dragon champion we've seen. If they didn't write lesser dragons as being incapable of becoming Elder Dragons, she could work - she's worked with mortals long enough and don't outright hate them; a worthy replacement that could go evil in the future for another game's plot. But with the whole "lesser dragons can't become Elder Dragons", and Kuunavang not having anything that really ties to anything Elder Dragon-like, it seems very unlikely.

Unless the deep sea dragon is secretly some sort of Elder Star Dragon.

Plus, the possibility of visiting Cantha in GW2 is still well beyond the horizon of visible plot directions.

Where is Kuunavang confirmed to be lesser again? And perhaps they meant not an Elder Dragon since "high" isn't official and a spoiler.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:ArenaNet already said that "lesser dragons" cannot become Elder Dragons. Though this only included wyverns, hydras, drakes, and skyscales, the chances are high that Canthan dragons are included since they're very wyvern and/or drake-like. Saltspray Dragons are basically serpentine wyverns.

This likely extends to whatever dragon race the Bone Dragons come from, or any other foreign "dragon".

I think the difference between "lesser" and "higher" dragons is sentience?The others you mention are indeed more akin to beasts and animals but Saltspray Dragons are both intelligent and sentient. Atleast Kuunavang is/was.Personally I don't believe we're ever going back to Cantha but I don't think this is the reason not to.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodent's used motherhood to eat.

Glint, and possibly Aurene will experience motherhood and fatherhood and neither. Using human morality is not a given.

The narrative isn't being written for rodents nor dragons, but for humans.

Then she shouldn't have eaten Joko.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodent's used motherhood to eat.

Glint, and possibly Aurene will experience motherhood and fatherhood and neither. Using human morality is not a given.

The narrative isn't being written for rodents nor dragons, but for humans.

Then she shouldn't have eaten Joko.

why not?

humans have eaten mummies not too long ago. . . and Joko was basically a walking mummy.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodent's used motherhood to eat.

Glint, and possibly Aurene will experience motherhood and fatherhood and neither. Using human morality is not a given.

The narrative isn't being written for rodents nor dragons, but for humans.

Then she shouldn't have eaten Joko.

I fail to see how "dragon eats mummy" is a narrative written for non-humans, since the entire purpose at first was to intentionally try to gross out the audience / remind players that Aurene is "not a pet".

Only later to be used as a resurrection excuse after they decided to kill her and needed to think up a way to bring her back while writing Episode 6...

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodent's used motherhood to eat.

Glint, and possibly Aurene will experience motherhood and fatherhood and neither. Using human morality is not a given.

The narrative isn't being written for rodents nor dragons, but for humans.

Then she shouldn't have eaten Joko.

I fail to see how "dragon eats mummy" is a narrative written for non-humans, since the entire purpose at first was to intentionally try to gross out the audience / remind players that Aurene is "not a pet".

Only later to be used as a resurrection excuse after they decided to kill her and needed to think up a way to bring her back while writing Episode 6...

I fail to see how out of all the meanings of the word "for" I could have been responding to, and the context of this entire discussion, you interpreted that was my point. As if I was somehow unaware the game is not being purchased by rodents.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodent's used motherhood to eat.

Glint, and possibly Aurene will experience motherhood and fatherhood and neither. Using human morality is not a given.

The narrative isn't being written for rodents nor dragons, but for humans.

Then she shouldn't have eaten Joko.

I fail to see how "dragon eats mummy" is a narrative written for non-humans, since the entire purpose at first was to intentionally try to gross out the audience / remind players that Aurene is "not a pet".

Only later to be used as a resurrection excuse after they decided to kill her and needed to think up a way to bring her back while writing Episode 6...

I fail to see how out of all the meanings of the word "for" I could have been responding to, and the context of this entire discussion, you interpreted that was my point. As if I was somehow unaware the game is not being purchased by rodents.

Ironically enough, you never used the word "for" in the posts I've responded to in this chain.

And ironically enough, you never got the real point of my comment either. Your entire argument against @"Psientist.6437" has been that the narrative is not about humans but dragons and therefore human interpretation is moot. But the narrative is written by, and written for, humans. And it will be humans interpreting the narrative.

My point was that regardless of what the species narrative centralizes on, it will be humans who write it and who experience the narrative, and it will therefore be a narrative for humans and as such, the interpretations and the meanings will be viewed with human viewpoints in mind. The narrative would be "forced motherhood to save the world" even if it's not human motherhood we're dealing with because it's a narrative written by humans, for humans.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodent's used motherhood to eat.

Glint, and possibly Aurene will experience motherhood and fatherhood and neither. Using human morality is not a given.

The narrative isn't being written
for
rodents nor dragons, but for humans.

Then she shouldn't have eaten Joko.

I fail to see how "dragon eats mummy" is a narrative written for non-humans, since the entire purpose at first was to intentionally try to gross out the audience / remind players that Aurene is "not a pet".

Only later to be used as a resurrection excuse after they decided to kill her and needed to think up a way to bring her back while writing Episode 6...

I fail to see how out of all the meanings of the word "for" I could have been responding to, and the context of this entire discussion, you interpreted that was my point. As if I was somehow unaware the game is not being purchased by rodents.

Ironically enough, you never used the word "for" in the posts I've responded to in this chain.

Quoting is a form of usage. Stop.

And ironically enough, you never got the real point of my comment either. Your entire argument against @"Psientist.6437" has been that the narrative is not about humans but dragons and therefore human interpretation is moot. But the narrative is written by, and written for, humans. And it will be humans interpreting the narrative.

My point was that regardless of what the species narrative centralizes on, it will be humans who write it and who experience the narrative, and it will therefore be a narrative for humans and as such, the interpretations and the meanings will be viewed with human viewpoints in mind. The narrative would be "forced motherhood to save the world" even if it's not human motherhood we're dealing with because it's a narrative written by humans, for humans.

There are human biologists, lawyers, pro-life advocates, adults and children. The entirety of human interpretation is not moot. Rather it is variable. Writers who understand that can attempt to control the narrative. It would be "forced motherhood to save the world" for you. Because you want to think that way before anything is even written.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:In the event there are no more scions, not from Aurene, nor hidden Glint eggs, nor Kuunavang, nor Skyscale, is the world doomed?At best the Pale Tree replaces Mordremoth.

No, it would just mean we cannot kill the remaining Elder Dragons and must find a way to put them into a more permanent hibernation instead.

Unless, of course, ArenaNet decides to retcon the lore they established in Season 3 and Path of Fire and proclaim Aurene as the One True Elder Dragon who replaces them all.

Which would be a bad retcon, imo.

Isn't that the same as waiting for scions? You just kick the can for this topic past the life span of all but perhaps the Syvlari PC.

I agree one dragon alone is a bad idea.

The whole legacy which seems to be what our living story seems to be about with glints legacy is finding entities that can contain the magic and share it rather than hoard it is what guides the story. So I don't believe that aurene would be the only one elder dragon but our PC's story will be finding those who can help and share it. I figure we one day will go to cantha for one of these entities being that one of the things we see in canthan culture from the original game is that there is worshiping or reverence to dragons in a way that is the opposite of how beings would act toward those like the elder dragons that corrupt and consume/destroy. One of my theories on the whole Steve or Bubbles thing is that the cantha backstory is that the canthans are expelling all non-humans which to me that makes me believe they are trying to wipe out anything that isn't human so that may be the reason why an elder dragon may be saving them by helping them get to the other side of the ocean and possibly one of the entities aurene will end up sharing magic with. So then by the time we have a bubbles saga it wouldn't be a war against bubbles but rather a war against the people trying to kill bubbles. Which would be different from having to deal with dragon minions and dragon corruption it would be the opposite of that changing the course of content and gameplay where instead of it being against you that in some cases it would be something you are using or something that is assisting you.

Which content wise for revs anyways it would be funny if there was an elite spec that when you use a new elite that it removes devastation from your specs and replaces it as your elite as a shiro elite spec but at the same time gives a non-elite spec and non-elite legend because of that which could also be adapted to the other classes of something that could be completely balanced from the start. Anyways that my view point on aurene, glints legacy, and the whole magic issue. So not all elder dragons have to be like the others we've seen before aurene she could very well help change the existing ones and possibly an existing one not being as bad as people may have feared.

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@"Klypto.1703"

I don't think Bubbles was saving anyone. The Elder Dragon have notoriously poor self control. Even when, as we found out with Kralkatorrik, they are having to "kill what they love."

But assuming we get back to Cantha, and the writers feel comfortable portraying any of its people in a bad light, I could see us having to stop them from killing Bubbles. And while a core spec may not be promoted to an elite spec, Shiro definitely would have things to say to Revenants.

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