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Elite-level specializations for basic professions


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I'm only discussing PvE, although some of this might apply elsewhere.

Elite specializations have has one significant issue across the board: they reduce the ability to play the core profession. Elites beef up the character too much to ignore. It simply makes playing a core profession undesirable.

To fix this, I think the core specializations should have the ability to be slotted as an elite, and receive a corresponding increase in power to match.

I'm not sure how much more powerful a current elite spec is compared to non-elite ones, but devs must have access to that information. So, if they do, that would make it nearly trivial to do the calculations: just multiply by that percentage.

Getting them to be slotted as elite might be more complicated, though. Perhaps creating a new trait line with the same traits, but a different name might work. Then, disallow using the old and the new together.

I would really like to be able to play a guardian healer as a guardian, but having druids in the game makes that a stripped-down option. Same thing for warriors, necros, and most of the professions.

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@xenon.3264 said:ehm no. core profession are core. what if i wanted core guardian to be buffed to be a condition dps and not a healer ?

And elite specs where supposed to come with some sort of negative so that it wasnt a straight out upgrade, and they do not do that at all for most classes. I cant even play my Ranger without SB these days cause Ranger is so weak on its own. Anets balancing has never been great, but elite specs made it way more obvious. Same with my ele and weaver.

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This has been mentioned and discussed many times in the past, if curious about more details search for some of the old threads.

But basically the most "likely" way to solve that, is to promote the 5th traitline of each class into a specific "core-elite-spez". I'll use guardian as an example, so the trait line "Virtues" (which is the one that affects the virtues the guardians class mechanic) would be promoted to a elite variant.

  • This means it can't be equipped until level 71 (unlock the 3rd trait line)
  • Can't be used together with other Elite's (can't mix Virtues with DH or FB)
  • Would still not get any own skills or weapons
  • Would allow ANet to balance it to compensate for the difference in power with the existing elites, easier to balance
  • Limits most classes from double stacking traits that changes how their profession mechanic works (example no stacking Beast Mastery and SoulBeast for ranger)
  • Somewhat hard lock core into playing with their new core-elite because a large part of their power will be focused in that traitline. (most likely by having some big +X% damage bonuses tied into it, to compensate for the generally higher bonuses of elites)
  • Would effectively reduce the amount of core builds most people use, since everyone would feel "forced" into using Virtues if they don't use the expansion elites. Essentially you could break down most builds to "run one of the 3, then build after what you want that elite to do".
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@Daddicus.6128 said:I'm only discussing PvE, although some of this might apply elsewhere.

Elite specializations have has one significant issue across the board: they reduce the ability to play the core profession. Elites beef up the character too much to ignore. It simply makes playing a core profession undesirable.

To fix this, I think the core specializations should have the ability to be slotted as an elite, and receive a corresponding increase in power to match.

I'm not sure how much more powerful a current elite spec is compared to non-elite ones, but devs must have access to that information. So, if they do, that would make it nearly trivial to do the calculations: just multiply by that percentage.

Getting them to be slotted as elite might be more complicated, though. Perhaps creating a new trait line with the same traits, but a different name might work. Then, disallow using the old and the new together.

I would really like to be able to play a guardian healer as a guardian, but having druids in the game makes that a stripped-down option. Same thing for warriors, necros, and most of the professions.

They should bring all the professions into the elite spec power scale at their core level, which would mean E-specs would become different ways to play rather than straight upgrades with little nuances. They shouldn't be stronger but should be just a different and potentially more diversifying portion of your class; This then would help with balance and future E-specs to be more nuanced.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:And why would anyone wanna buy expansions, in that case?Edit: the fact that you cant play guard healer isnt druid. Its firebrand.

You raise a good point. However, it goes beyond what you stated. Buying the expansions is not enough to get the elite specs. It simply makes them available.

To get use the elite specs a new player must 1) purchase the expansions as you stated, 2) get the necessary glider / mounts for step #3, and level up said mounts and 3) get the hero points in expansion content - all this on an under powered (in most cases) core spec.

Even the above fails to mention that following the typical game path the new player still will spend 80 levels and much of the Personal story on a - typically - less interesting/fun core spec.

I would argue that the requirement for unlocking the elite specs - beyond purchasing the expansions - hurts the Devs business model substantially. Too many roadblocks are placed between the new/ish player and the coveted elite specs and all those fun looking game play videos he sees.

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@Providence.7185 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:And why would anyone wanna buy expansions, in that case?Edit: the fact that you cant play guard healer isnt druid. Its firebrand.

You raise a good point. However, it goes beyond what you stated. Buying the expansions is not enough to get the elite specs. It simply makes them available.

To get use the elite specs a new player must 1) purchase the expansions as you stated, 2) get the necessary glider / mounts for step #3, and level up said mounts and 3) get the hero points in expansion content - all this on an under powered (in most cases) core spec.

Even the above fails to mention that following the typical game path the new player still will spend 80 levels and much of the Personal story on a - typically - less interesting/fun core spec.

I would argue that the requirement for unlocking the elite specs - beyond purchasing the expansions - hurts the Devs business model substantially. Too many roadblocks are placed between the new/ish player and the coveted elite specs and all those fun looking game play videos he sees.

PoF and HoT heropoint trains are being done many times during a week. Newbies will have virtually no issue getting all 250 required points.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:And why would anyone wanna buy expansions, in that case?Edit: the fact that you cant play guard healer isnt druid. Its firebrand.

You raise a good point. However, it goes beyond what you stated. Buying the expansions is not enough to get the elite specs. It simply makes them available.

To get use the elite specs a new player must 1) purchase the expansions as you stated, 2) get the necessary glider / mounts for step #3, and level up said mounts and 3) get the hero points in expansion content - all this on an under powered (in most cases) core spec.

Even the above fails to mention that following the typical game path the new player still will spend 80 levels and much of the Personal story on a - typically - less interesting/fun core spec.

I would argue that the requirement for unlocking the elite specs - beyond purchasing the expansions - hurts the Devs business model substantially. Too many roadblocks are placed between the new/ish player and the coveted elite specs and all those fun looking game play videos he sees.

PoF and HoT heropoint trains are being done many times during a week. Newbies will have virtually no issue getting all 250 required points.

There's also the fact players can get 200 hero points from the core maps, as well.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@"Daddicus.6128" said:
I'm only discussing PvE, although some of this might apply elsewhere.

Elite specializations have has one significant issue across the board: they reduce the ability to play the core profession. Elites beef up the character too much to ignore. It simply makes playing a core profession undesirable.

To fix this, I think the core specializations should have the ability to be slotted as an elite, and receive a corresponding increase in power to match.

I'm not sure how much more powerful a current elite spec is compared to non-elite ones, but devs must have access to that information. So, if they do, that would make it nearly trivial to do the calculations: just multiply by that percentage.

Getting them to be slotted as elite might be more complicated, though. Perhaps creating a new trait line with the same traits, but a different name might work. Then, disallow using the old and the new together.

I would really like to be able to play a guardian healer as a guardian, but having druids in the game makes that a stripped-down option. Same thing for warriors, necros, and most of the professions.

They should bring all the professions into the elite spec power scale at their core level, which would mean E-specs would become different ways to play rather than straight upgrades with little nuances. They shouldn't be stronger but should be just a different and potentially more diversifying portion of your class; This then would help with balance and future E-specs to be more nuanced.

Thats a lot easier said then done when you actually take a good look how the Especs work. Core classes, by design, have a glaring weakness that was intended to counterbalance them against other classes. Especs ignore this rule in favor of counterbalancing the Espec against the Core Specs of their class. HOT Especs are largely designed around filling the design weaknesses of each Class, which is why they are seen as pure upgrades. POF Especs took the same concept, but had the added purpose of upsetting every Meta across the game by trying to break each class into Meta roles they were previously failing at competing in.

Scourge and Spellbreaker where made to help combat the Boon Share meta via boon rip. Firebrand and Renegade are attempts to diversify Chrono's dominance by giving them access to Quickness and Alacrity respectively (The 2 support classes now having a Raid capable Support build). Deadeye was there to give Thief a Ranged Support/Debuff option that later got totally redesigned another DPS build. Holosmith gave Engineer a straight forward Damage build for PvE and PvP. Soulbeast pulled double duty as a way to refocus power distribution from the pet back in the Ranger, and give them a raw DPS option for Raids. Weaver gave Ele a stronger dueling setup with a competent Melee. Mirage I'm not clear on what the goal was, other then maybe giving them a way to deal with multiple targets.

To elevate the Core "Profession" related trait line to Espec, they are forced to choose between leaning into the class weaknesses [whose inherent imbalance was what was keeping many of them out of Metas in the first place] and power load to compensate, or trying to address those weakness through the Profession mechanics themselves. Both of these require the other 4 trait lines to be completely reshuffled on the assumption of the Espec being the cohesive element in the build; which is EXACTLY how they designed Revenant..... and we all know how that turned out. Theres also the ongoing problem of each Class being power loaded differently, where the "Core as Espec" approach requires at least half of a class's power to come from the Profession mechanic and Trait line. This is made worse by most Core Profession mechanics not being universally flexible, or requiring other Trait lines to make them useful. All of that needs to be totally reevaluated to make this work.

Before I was totally onboard with this idea. But my mind has changed over time with how Anet has been handling the POF Espec Mechanics, and they're nearly fundamental misunderstanding of how Players look at traits and effects. Deadeye's unique debuff mechanic made perfect sense as a Support feature, until you realize its the Grace of the Land situation all over again. Scourge is so heavily power loaded into its shades, that small changes to how it works can make or break its viability. Weaver leaned even harder into Ele's existing reliance on Damage bonus traits, and then nerfed the baseline damage of many Core elements to reign in the scaling. Warrior Adrenaline stacking traits being nerfed to single on Esspecs, despite the fact that the difference between Lv1 and Lv3 is substantial, and most of its numerical balance centering around Lv3 effects. Then theres Mirage Cloak mobility nerf, making it less effective then a normal dodge roll; and actually would had been ok for new baselline, had interactions with Teleport utility skills been brought into its design focus.

They've been trying to fix mechanical problems with numerical tweaking, and trying to fix numerical scaling with major mechanical changes. The 2 approaches to balance they have been using, aren't being executed properly either. When they do Shaving, the period between shaves is typically too long to reach equilibrium in a reasonable time frame. When they do Big changes, they're relying on the level of disruption to force players to sort it out, and get blind sided when we find loop holes to exploit. More over- the players don't have any real motivation to seek a balanced meta, and that directly hurts the potential for a good testing environment. And thats not surprising, since the game itself values only a hand full of things in each content type..... so players will immediately optimize for them exclusively.

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@Dante.1763 said:

@xenon.3264 said:ehm no. core profession are core. what if i wanted core guardian to be buffed to be a condition dps and not a healer ?

And elite specs where supposed to come with some sort of negative so that it wasnt a straight out upgrade, and they do not do that at all for most classes. I cant even play my Ranger without SB these days cause Ranger is so weak on its own. Anets balancing has never been great, but elite specs made it way more obvious. Same with my ele and weaver.

That's my point: you can't play a ranger in high-level zones. Or, rather, you can't play one as effectively as any other class using an elite spec.

This would level the playing field between the core professions and the elites, to make them playable again.

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@"joneirikb.7506" said:This has been mentioned and discussed many times in the past, if curious about more details search for some of the old threads.

But basically the most "likely" way to solve that, is to promote the 5th traitline of each class into a specific "core-elite-spez". I'll use guardian as an example, so the trait line "Virtues" (which is the one that affects the virtues the guardians class mechanic) would be promoted to a elite variant.

  • This means it can't be equipped until level 71 (unlock the 3rd trait line)
  • Can't be used together with other Elite's (can't mix Virtues with DH or FB)
  • Would still not get any own skills or weapons
  • Would allow ANet to balance it to compensate for the difference in power with the existing elites, easier to balance
  • Limits most classes from double stacking traits that changes how their profession mechanic works (example no stacking Beast Mastery and SoulBeast for ranger)
  • Somewhat hard lock core into playing with their new core-elite because a large part of their power will be focused in that traitline. (most likely by having some big +X% damage bonuses tied into it, to compensate for the generally higher bonuses of elites)
  • Would effectively reduce the amount of core builds most people use, since everyone would feel "forced" into using Virtues if they don't use the expansion elites. Essentially you could break down most builds to "run one of the 3, then build after what you want that elite to do".

Agreed. I wouldn't limit it to just one trait line, though. But, one would have to choose a single trait line as your elite. (Of course, there would be five, if you wanted to spec out five characters as one of each, but that doesn't seem likely for most folks.)

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

I'm only discussing PvE, although some of this might apply elsewhere.

Elite specializations have has one significant issue across the board: they reduce the ability to play the core profession. Elites beef up the character too much to ignore. It simply makes playing a core profession undesirable.

To fix this, I think the core specializations should have the ability to be slotted as an elite, and receive a corresponding increase in power to match.

I'm not sure how much more powerful a current elite spec is compared to non-elite ones, but devs must have access to that information. So, if they do, that would make it nearly trivial to do the calculations: just multiply by that percentage.

Getting them to be slotted as elite might be more complicated, though. Perhaps creating a new trait line with the same traits, but a different name might work. Then, disallow using the old and the new together.

I would really like to be able to play a guardian healer as a guardian, but having druids in the game makes that a stripped-down option. Same thing for warriors, necros, and most of the professions.

They should bring all the professions into the elite spec power scale at their core level, which would mean E-specs would become different ways to play rather than straight upgrades with little nuances. They shouldn't be stronger but should be just a different and potentially more diversifying portion of your class; This then would help with balance and future E-specs to be more nuanced.

Exactly. Ele becomes a viable alternative to tempest or weaver.

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@Providence.7185 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:And why would anyone wanna buy expansions, in that case?Edit: the fact that you cant play guard healer isnt druid. Its firebrand.

You raise a good point. However, it goes beyond what you stated. Buying the expansions is not enough to get the elite specs. It simply makes them available.

To get use the elite specs a new player must 1) purchase the expansions as you stated, 2) get the necessary glider / mounts for step #3, and level up said mounts and 3) get the hero points in expansion content - all this on an under powered (in most cases) core spec.

Even the above fails to mention that following the typical game path the new player still will spend 80 levels and much of the Personal story on a - typically - less interesting/fun core spec.

I would argue that the requirement for unlocking the elite specs - beyond purchasing the expansions - hurts the Devs business model substantially. Too many roadblocks are placed between the new/ish player and the coveted elite specs and all those fun looking game play videos he sees.

I understand, but disagree, at least sort of. My idea should come with requirements as well, and of a similar amount of work to attain as it would being a new elite spec.

BUT, the requirements might be fulfillable in core or even in the LS zones. I suspect they would have to add some kind of hero-point-like structure to make the costs clear to players, as they are with current elites.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:And why would anyone wanna buy expansions, in that case?Edit: the fact that you cant play guard healer isnt druid. Its firebrand.

You raise a good point. However, it goes beyond what you stated. Buying the expansions is not enough to get the elite specs. It simply makes them available.

To get use the elite specs a new player must 1) purchase the expansions as you stated, 2) get the necessary glider / mounts for step #3, and level up said mounts and 3) get the hero points in expansion content - all this on an under powered (in most cases) core spec.

Even the above fails to mention that following the typical game path the new player still will spend 80 levels and much of the Personal story on a - typically - less interesting/fun core spec.

I would argue that the requirement for unlocking the elite specs - beyond purchasing the expansions - hurts the Devs business model substantially. Too many roadblocks are placed between the new/ish player and the coveted elite specs and all those fun looking game play videos he sees.

PoF and HoT heropoint trains are being done many times during a week. Newbies will have virtually no issue getting all 250 required points.

Correct, but if someone wanted to get all 7 elites (if all of this idea is implemented), they wouldn't be able to do it on a single character. Now, you can actually attain both elites without too much difficulty, but adding 5 more would require new "something" (to replace or add to hero points).

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One thing might not be clear in my proposal:

Characters would get ONE elite specialization, same as now. The key would be that one of them, instead of choosing what are the current elites, could be one of the original five, but at the same slightly elevated power level as the elites have.

I THINK that this would mean simply math calculations. If the elites are targeted at 5% better, than make zeal 5% better. And virtue, etc. They shouldn't need to change anything else. (But, your character could only use one of them at a time, and would forego having an elite spec to do it.)

NOTE: by "power" in all of the above, I mean general power level, not the specific attribute called Power.

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@Daddicus.6128 said:

@"joneirikb.7506" said:This has been mentioned and discussed many times in the past, if curious about more details search for some of the old threads.

But basically the most "likely" way to solve that, is to promote the 5th traitline of each class into a specific "core-elite-spez". I'll use guardian as an example, so the trait line "Virtues" (which is the one that affects the virtues the guardians class mechanic) would be promoted to a elite variant.
  • This means it can't be equipped until level 71 (unlock the 3rd trait line)
  • Can't be used together with other Elite's (can't mix Virtues with DH or FB)
  • Would still not get any own skills or weapons
  • Would allow ANet to balance it to compensate for the difference in power with the existing elites, easier to balance
  • Limits most classes from double stacking traits that changes how their profession mechanic works (example no stacking Beast Mastery and SoulBeast for ranger)
  • Somewhat hard lock core into playing with their new core-elite because a large part of their power will be focused in that traitline. (most likely by having some big +X% damage bonuses tied into it, to compensate for the generally higher bonuses of elites)
  • Would effectively reduce the amount of core builds most people use, since everyone would feel "forced" into using Virtues if they don't use the expansion elites. Essentially you could break down most builds to "run one of the 3, then build after what you want that elite to do".

Agreed. I wouldn't limit it to just one trait line, though. But, one would have to choose a single trait line as your elite. (Of course, there would be five, if you wanted to spec out five characters as one of each, but that doesn't seem likely for most folks.)

The reason I suggested to upgrade 1 traitline, and a specific one, is because honestly otherwise this is just too much work for too little return. Considering how poorly ANet been handling balancing in this game as it is the last 4-5 years.

At that point, you might as well just have a feature that says if you have a class with only core traits, gets a free +20% damage bonus, to compete with the elites. (Number pending depending on actual balance etc)

Reworking all 5 trait lines to be both core trait lines and core-elite-traitlines (potential, if put into the third spot) isn't that far from asking for 2-3 new elites, in pure work and balance load. The scale of the idea becomes unrealistic.

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@joneirikb.7506 said:

@joneirikb.7506 said:This has been mentioned and discussed many times in the past, if curious about more details search for some of the old threads.

But basically the most "likely" way to solve that, is to promote the 5th traitline of each class into a specific "core-elite-spez". I'll use guardian as an example, so the trait line "Virtues" (which is the one that affects the virtues the guardians class mechanic) would be promoted to a elite variant.
  • This means it can't be equipped until level 71 (unlock the 3rd trait line)
  • Can't be used together with other Elite's (can't mix Virtues with DH or FB)
  • Would still not get any own skills or weapons
  • Would allow ANet to balance it to compensate for the difference in power with the existing elites, easier to balance
  • Limits most classes from double stacking traits that changes how their profession mechanic works (example no stacking Beast Mastery and SoulBeast for ranger)
  • Somewhat hard lock core into playing with their new core-elite because a large part of their power will be focused in that traitline. (most likely by having some big +X% damage bonuses tied into it, to compensate for the generally higher bonuses of elites)
  • Would effectively reduce the amount of core builds most people use, since everyone would feel "forced" into using Virtues if they don't use the expansion elites. Essentially you could break down most builds to "run one of the 3, then build after what you want that elite to do".

Agreed. I wouldn't limit it to just one trait line, though. But, one would have to choose a single trait line as your elite. (Of course, there would be five, if you wanted to spec out five characters as one of each, but that doesn't seem likely for most folks.)

The reason I suggested to upgrade 1 traitline, and a specific one, is because honestly otherwise this is just too much work for too little return. Considering how poorly ANet been handling balancing in this game as it is the last 4-5 years.

At that point, you might as well just have a feature that says if you have a class with only core traits, gets a free +20% damage bonus, to compete with the elites. (Number pending depending on actual balance etc)

Reworking all 5 trait lines to be both core trait lines and core-elite-traitlines (potential, if put into the third spot) isn't that far from asking for 2-3 new elites, in pure work and balance load. The scale of the idea becomes unrealistic.

Yeah, that would work. (Assuming 20% is the right number. But, they would know that.) Different idea for the same concept. Thanks!

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I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

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Ignoring elite specializations and how they are currently still often more potent compared to core trait lines, which can also be considered a good thing since most priority balance happens around how trait lines synergize with 1 elite trait line (which in turn reduces work load a lot since not all trait lines need to be equally powerful), this suggestion would result in:

  • a LOT of extra work in balancing old content which currently works fine. Work hours which could be spent on developing new content, most directly new elite specializations
  • future balance workload becoming overproportionatly higher since designing and balancing 2 for each core trait line would require double to constant monitoring
  • create more unintuitive barriers where some players already need time to adjust and understand the current traitline system
  • no significant shift in class performance abilities. For example: heal guardian works just fine, it simply is outperformed by heal firebrand. The role as such though is more than possible on guardian, unlike say a thief or mesmer. The net gain of possible roles per core class would not significantly increase, definitely a lot less than with a new set of elite specilaizations
  • many core builds are quite powerful currently in different game modes

In short: this idea creates more current and future work for less return than alternative areas where these resoucres could be used, has no significant impact on the class role distribution and doe not provide any significant actual new content.

TL;DR:Another one of those "great" ideas where people just start talking about what they think would be great without actually spending even 2 minutes on refining their idea into a state where it would make sense to implement into the game or even discuss. Another idea which has a chance of 0.00001% of ever getting taken serious by people who actually have to manage the workload at a time where resources are strained already.

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I believe there should have been a mandatory elite trait line on hitting level 80, to include:

  • Core elite (the profession specific line, eg Illusions, Trickery, Beastmastery, etc)
  • HoT elite
  • PoF elite

Sure that means only 4 other trait lines to combine with, but would have helped towards some kind of balance by the Core elite line being exclusive to a Core build.

Edit - though this is all moot as the ship has sailed.

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