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Let's Talk About WvW Balance


Cal Cohen.2358

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Stun locks suck. There is too much cc going around which is too easily accessed. You use a stun break but then get another cc so you use another stun break but here comes more cc. Even if you have stability, if it is more than one player those stacks are gone instantly, which sucks for professions who do not have a lot of access to it.Being immune to cc temporarily (no experienced enough to specify a time) after using a stun break would be nice. Sometime I wonder why I even bother slotting stun breaks.

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@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:-Passive invulns and defensive procs take away skillful play and allow players to get away with stuff that they shouldn't. I would love to see these deleted from every class. They take away the risk factor.

What skilful play? Part of the reason this game has passive defensive procs is because applying damage is generally so easy (low skilled), especially for certain classes - rev for example. The game even aims for you which is by a long, long way the single most skill lowering thing in this game, strange how people don't complain about that, though I guess not that strange as really it just highlights the reality that no one genuinely interested in skilled gaming is playing GW2, WvW especially and in 2019 especially.

Then beyond that you would have to remake some classes because they require defensive procs by design (e.g - core engy & scrapper, because there is too much pressure and opportunity cost on the utility/toolbelt skills) or because those procs are there to compensate for slow, clunky skills or subpar damage application, etc. Then of course you have to realize this is a casual themepark MMORPG, not Quake, so you need things like warrior that are more forgiving to play.

As for the risk factor, on that basis better remove stealth, skills that do damage whilst you evade, high mobility that allows you to disengage as soon as something goes wrong against most classes/builds (the lack of risk vs reward on certain classes/builds in this game in WvW is beyond laughable) and so on.

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Hello everyone,

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:-Reduce Trailblazer and Minstrel to tri-stat. Either remove the toughness or the vitality. My wish would be for the toughness to be removed. These sets are too effective and create unfun tank builds.

I agree with lots of things said in snipped post, but I bolded that "Minstrel/Traiblazer create unfun tank builds" part because it's a core point of the whole TTK question.

If I read correctly, an appropriate choice of profession, specializations, gear and rotation enables one-shot builds, which are arguably unfun. But other choices like TB or ministrel would then be unfun as well. First thing : why would they be fun ? My idea : both builds are fun because they're safe. One-shot builds' safety comes from the quick death of foe, while Tanky's come from the fact you can roughly ignore the enemy and still be safe.

Now, let's think about why it's unfun, about what unfun means. Both options (tanky or one-shot) lead to the same hypothesis. Namely :

  • The build leaves no opportunity to turn tides : one-shot builds ? You're dead with the opening, so you can't do anything. Tanky builds ? You can hit as much as you want, you won't down anyone.
  • Fights drag for too long : one-shot builds are appreciated because they provide very quick fights so that fights won't drag, while tanky builds are despised because they make fights drag longer.

When you think about it, it's perfectly reversible : "I don't like one-shot builds because the fight is so short that I can't do anything." or "I don't like tanky builds because the fight is so long and I can't do anything."
That said, these hypothesis have a fundamental difference : the turning tides thing comes mostly from "balance", while the fights drag too much is the question of the intrinsic quality of fights in GW2, and thus the appropriate TTK to aim at.

So here are the big questions, and I hope I'm not derailing too much the topic by asking them. If so, do feel free to open a new discussion :

  1. Are fights actually fun in GW2 ?
  2. If you're the one to engage a fight, what makes it fun ? What is unfun ? What would make it funnier ?
  3. If you're the one who's engaged, what makes it fun ? What is unfun ? What would make it funnier ?
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@ThomasC.1056 said:Hello everyone,

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:-Reduce Trailblazer and Minstrel to tri-stat. Either remove the toughness or the vitality. My wish would be for the toughness to be removed. These sets are too effective and
create unfun tank builds
.

I agree with lots of things said in snipped post, but I bolded that
"Minstrel/Traiblazer create unfun tank builds"
part because it's a core point of the whole TTK question.Incidently a core contradiction since people
also
say full dps gank builds are the only meta because toughness does nothing - which is the cause for the fast TTK.

Isnt that weird...

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@ThomasC.1056 said:Hello everyone,

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:-Reduce Trailblazer and Minstrel to tri-stat. Either remove the toughness or the vitality. My wish would be for the toughness to be removed. These sets are too effective and
create unfun tank builds
.

I agree with lots of things said in snipped post, but I bolded that
"Minstrel/Traiblazer create unfun tank builds"
part because it's a core point of the whole TTK question.Incidently a core contradiction since people
also
say full dps gank builds are the only meta because toughness does nothing - which is the cause for the fast TTK.

Isnt that weird...

I wouldn't say weird. Surely both statements are voiced often here, not by the same people, yet for more or less the same reasons when you ponder about it.

So I'd say ironic.

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Short-term

Bigger fights are dominated by Firebrands and Scourges. There are other good builds too, but those 2 are the most powerful. Short-term goal should be to bring down power level of these two, without ruining their viability in small scale fights.

Scourge

What makes them too good:

  • Can hit 10 targets with one skill. This is very powerful and prevents other builds from shining, for example going melee against these monsters is very difficult.

What to change:

  • Lower the target limit of shade skills to 5.

Risks:

  • Without massive boon corruption from scourges boon sharing builds could become unstoppable. This risk can be mitigated by addressing boon output of firebrand.
  • Scourge becomes too weak and not played in large scale battles anymore. This risk can be accepted and I dont see it very likely, scourge would still be good.

Firebrands

What makes them too good:

  • Great utility
  • Great healing
  • Great condition cleanse
  • Decent CC
  • No other build can bring so much support to the field as Firebrand.

What to change:

  • Reduce target limit of all tome skills to 3 targets. This will reduce the amount of boons and healing that firebrands are dishing out in large scale battles, but in small scale firebrand support remains strong.
  • Tome_of_Resolve All skills only affect 3 allies
  • Tome_of_Courage All skills only affect 3 allies
  • Tome_of_Justice All skills only affect 3 enemies
  • Valiant Bulwark Replace reflecting with destroying. Projectiles are already weak enough.

Risks:

  • Groups start to run 2 firebrands/party or 3 man parties, doubling the number of firebrands and reducing build diversity. However this would also reduce the damage output of the group and allow enemy Spellbreakers to close in and remove boons with their elite skill. Its impossible to say which side would win (the one with more firebrands or the one who instead brings Spellbreakers or other offensive builds). Accept the risk.

Bonus: Warclaw

  • Remove the ability to instantly finish downed enemies. It is simply annoying and removes possibilities for comebacks in fights where it happens.
  • Limit the endurance of the warclaw to only two dodges. They are very difficult to stop as they are.

Long-Term

What could the future metagame look like:

  • Melee builds and ranged builds would be more equal.
  • There is more diversity in support builds. Ability to share stability is very important for a good support build as are the abilities to heal and cure conditions. Some support build can be better than others in some aspects.
  • There is more diversity in builds that are able to remove or corrupt boons
  • One shot (literally one shot), builds don't exists in small-scale fights. Bursts builds still exist.
  • It is viable for a groups to focus on either ranged, melee or hybrid. Maybe one group uses firebrands, scourges, elementalists and revenants to deal damage from range and other group uses soulbeasts, reapers, spellbreakers and scrappers to engage the first group in melee.

How to get there

Iteratively adjust the power levels of known builds. Example:

  • Restore revenant hammer #2 Coalescence of Ruin
  • Increase reaper's boon removal
  • Help support tampest support better.
  • Help revenants remove more boons.
  • Consider removing some food effects from wvw. (ascended food).

Also give players a change to spawn new builds by making large changes to skills/traits that have potential, but are not quite there. Dont be afraid to take risks. Examples:

  • Remove reduced duration from Leader of the Pack. Maybe players can find use for stance sharing soulbeast?
  • Restore Spirits Unbound and allow ranger spirits to walk again.
  • Make engineer rifle stronger. Faster "cast times" to all skills and add evasion for the leap skill.
  • Increase radius on mesmer support mantra skills. Maybe a support mesmer build becomes viable.
  • Increase power of Death Shroud skills. Maybe players start using core necromancer more.
  • Give guardian's valor traitline a powerful supporting grandmaster trait. Maybe this would allow support core guardian to be a thing again.
  • Allow engineer to remove more boons.

If at all possible, do balance iterations more often.

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Iteratively adjust the power levels of known builds. Example:

  • Restore revenant hammer #2 Coalescence of Ruin
  • Increase reaper's boon removal
  • Help revenants remove more boons.

please not :(

Also give players a change to spawn new builds by making large changes to skills/traits that have potential, but are not quite there. Dont be afraid to take risks. Examples:

  • Make engineer rifle stronger. Faster "cast times" to all skills and add evasion for the leap skill.
  • Allow engineer to remove more boons.

please do not buff holo more..rifle needs some nerfs not buffs.and core engi is not bad - only holo is way too strong. nerf holo and core engi is great again.

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Long ago we had a “Top 5” wishlist for the devs, that MO had been engaged in (on the old forums https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Your-top-5-priorities-for-WvW-Overhaul and reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4akga5/mike_obrien_post_on_wvw_subforum_top_5_priorities/) , and overall I feel it was productive. I’d like to start a similar conversation based off of the recent posts by CMC.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/90774/lets-talk-about-wvw-balance

I’m going to start with a quote from CMC so we can work off of that direction for this thread.

The quote...

“Mini Balance Roadmap

We have identified the overall power of the game has become an issue and we wish to address this in the competitive game modes.

The next balance update is going to be smaller than usual. We want to make a handful of very targeted changes to address the biggest pain points in the current meta”

In this thread I would like the community to come up with a list of your top 5 “ biggest pain points” and how you would tackle them.

I’d like to suggest that we make this thread as friendly to read as possible for the devs, and to make sure we can give EVERYONE a voice without arguing, so I’m going to lay out some posting guidelines that I feel would be helpful.

  • Your post should be 1 page only.
  • Keep your thoughts and ideas clear, concise and constructive.
  • No arguing. Do not bash any ideas. Let people post their feedback and let it be even if you don’t agree.
  • Post only YOUR 5 ideas. Do NOT quote anyone UNLESS it is to add on to their particular idea.
  • Keep all your ideas based off of the “biggest pain points”... Those are the MAJOR problems surrounding competitive play. Example of what not to post... “This 1 skill hits too hard, please nerf this 1 skill”. Better example... “Damage output needs to be toned down by doing XYZ”.

With that said, here are my 5 Biggest Pain Points....

1- TTK is way too low. Increase base https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health to combat power creep inside of competitive modes. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/28024/increasing-ttk-undoing-old-split-changes-and-eliminating-skill-splitting. Not in that thread, but a global buff to base health or vitality could be given when entering the mists.

2- Balancing Conditions for the entire game... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29999/let-s-also-fix-up-the-condi-system-before-we-neuter-professions-more. Not in the thread, but inside of the mists the team could use player Break Bars or an immunity timer that prevents a player from getting HARD CCed in succession. Like a 10s immunity timer.

3- Stealth revamp... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60005/stealth-rework-2-0

4- Visual improvements for competitive play... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67283/i-would-like-to-discuss-visual-tells-for-wvw

5- Getting offensive AoEs under control... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/44028/ideas-to-tone-down-offensive-aoes

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Let's take a look at boon output, condition output and conversion interplay issues that are plaguing wvw. When the chrono nerf to boon output came a few months back it was mentioned that the goal was to limit the output of boons any specific class could generate to allow other classes a place in the boon meta. This was done to chrono but other classes were left in broken OP states.

Firebrand is the main offender at the moment because they generate group Aegis, Might, Protection, Quickness, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Swiftness, and Vigor. The initial statement on boons when chrono was nerfed was that boon output for individual classes was going to be toned down but this class was never addressed. The main problem with this class having so much access to boons is (like the old chrono) it squeezes out room for any other boon generating supports because it does it better than anything else can.

Support scrapper has a part in this as well due to Purity of Purpose trait. With this one trait every cleansed condition is converted to a boon. This gives scrapper access to all boons output for their subgroup dependent on what the incoming conditions are. Converting a cleansed condition to a boon is way too overpowered when in a large scale wvw setting.

Scourge adds to the Support scrapper issue because it converts boons to conditions as well as outputting a ton of aoe conditions. So you have the interaction of Firebrand putting boons on the group initially. Then Scourge corrupts those boons to conditions while also outputting additional conditions. Then you have support scrapper converting all those conditions into boons again.

The dynamic from these 3 classes has made them overpowered to the point in the boons/condi/conversion meta that if you don't run this comp you lose the fight before it started. Group comp for any kind of organized group is mandatory these 3 classes and the last 2 spots in the 5 man are usually an additional scourge, herald dps, warrior or weaver dps.

No 3 classes should dominate the meta like this. They need to be brought down for other build options to be considered viable. This means limiting what boons are able to be output by these classes. Firebrand needs a rework that limits the boons they are able to output that makes them comparable to other support options. IMO Aegis, Protection, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Vigor and Swiftness is all they should be able to output making them a thematically defensive oriented boons generator and allowing room for more offensive boon generators of Might, and quickness.

As for the Scrapper and Scourge part in this. Instead of converting boons to specific conditions and conditions to specific boons they should generate a limited list of boons/conditions randomly. This change would limit the boon/condition/conversion meta to specific conditions and specific boon generation. I'm not sure which conditions/boons specifically should be used in this conversion chart but thematically it would make sense for scourge to be converting boons into non damaging conditions like weakness, vulnerability, slow etc. As for the Scrapper side of this. Since the condition spam generated by this interaction would be brought down by the change to firebrand boons output and scourge condition output it wouldn't be as bad. For balance these need to be looked at and limited to bring them in line with other support classes.

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Keeping this about skill balance, hoping we get a separate thread about game play as well, we could have a whole threads on maps and about downstate. Boon share and corruption need to be balanced. That said we have too much boon share. Right now the rule for the most part is size matters. And it should be in the regards to damage output but there should be a cap on benefits from a larger group. So if boon corruption is further reduced, so should be boon share. Potentially a cap on boons and/or an increase in cooldowns.

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Honestly it would all be solved by restricting what boons/condi were able to be generated through conversions. I'm leaning toward them being restricted to only generating defensive boons and non damaging conditions. That would mean their initial purpose of stripping/cleansing remains but takes down the damage buffs and damaging condition generation that makes them overpowered in the current meta.

The main problem in the current meta is while they are the best at stripping boons and cleansing conditions this is mostly a problem because they are also doing way too much damage and buffing way to much damage as a byproduct. Limiting the damage portion of this meta would be a great first step in bringing them into balance.

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@"bluberblasen.9684" said:

Iteratively adjust the power levels of known builds. Example:
  • Restore revenant hammer #2 Coalescence of Ruin
  • Increase reaper's boon removal
  • Help revenants remove more boons.

please not :(

Also give players a change to spawn new builds by making large changes to skills/traits that have potential, but are not quite there. Dont be afraid to take risks. Examples:
  • Make engineer rifle stronger. Faster "cast times" to all skills and add evasion for the leap skill.
  • Allow engineer to remove more boons.and core engi is not bad - only holo is way too strong. nerf holo and core engi is great again.

Core engi is one of, if not the weakest core spec in the game, so is basically terrible. Go see thief, warrior, etc for really strong core specs and even most other core specs like necro, ele, ranger, etc are stronger than core engy. Core engy is the poster boy for being left behind by powercreep that has obsoleted most of its design (kits, projectiles, combo fields, etc), it is so pitiful it basically needs a rework.

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One thing to also keep in mind with the aoe spamming, necros used wells as their main source of aoe bombing before PoF, but with shades they were essentially given a free pass of 3 additional wells while still using the old wells. Shades also have 3 charge at less than half the cooldown of a regular well(these have a high cooldown for a reason, a reason that seems to have been thrown out of the window some time ago), and enough power built into the skill that would typically be a utility skill(and therefore would replace a well slot), damage cripple torment traits affected and shroud abilities.

Tempest essentially had this too with overloads, but it was point blank aoes, had to wait 6s in attunement to cast, and also locked you out entirely from the attunement for 20s, which in turn locked them out of other aoes, since elementalist are aoe heavy based on weapons not utility skills like necros.

Anet really needs to keep trade offs in mind when creating new skills and mechanics.

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Dear devs, i am just going to state this here to save u guys the trouble of actually thinking for yourselves, this are the problems with WvW and why people left to play other games:

  1. Every single elite spec was a mistake in terms of PvP, u made them OP in order to force PvPers to buy expansions that didnt have any PvP related content. U did this twice hence why the balance is not possible at this point the power creep is insane to the point where even running full tank specs u get 1 shoted constantly, the only real damage mitigation right now are iframes dodges and skills suck endure pain etc.
  2. U added terrible things that ruined the game mode over this couple of expansions too such as tactivators, u made the keep lords so they cant be bannered, you made it so people could no longer teleport into a waypoint between contests etc, this also ruined the game in many different ways ruining fights making it so 99% of the PvP in WvW occurs when a team is on top of a wall using siege and the other team is under all kinds of cancer trying to get inside/
  3. U never develop anything actually retalted to PvP, instead of developing rankings? top player/guilds/server rewards, unique skins for the legeneday WvW players higher ranks stuff like that, u added PVE gimmicks like gliders and mounts that not a single PvPer asked for into WvW ruining the pace of the game.

The fix for WvW is very simple and every real WvW player know it, i am going to tell u that explicitly here right now:

  1. Rollback the whole gamemode to pre HoT balance state, same stats runes, no tactvators, T2 gates, no shields, vanilla classes with vanilla runes up to cele stats no new powercreep stats nonsense u added after, maybe bring a very tonned down version of revenant that is competitve with warrior in terms of damage and sustain. This is no rocket science if you need to like make a separate version for the client or whatver to run this as a stand alone mode do it. Monetize guild skins for armor, siege, buildings, maybe make it so the guilds that own buildings can do some cool customization to them and is all cash shop stuff, cool guild perks, WvW inventory capacity stuff like that.
  2. Develop PVP related content please we want guild/player/server leaderboards, we want prices for the BEST players we want something to drive us to keep playing the game mode, Develop in order to improve the QoL of the players give us cool shit to improve our gameplay experience, we dont need shiny gliders we need propper UI, decent invetory managment utilities stuff like that.
  3. Matchmaking has been broken since 2013, matchmaking for WvW is retarded, it dosnt work unless u can keep a balanced matchup in terms of numbers across 24 hours for 7 days in multiple tiers. This is absolutelly stupid and whover designed such system just should not be in the game industry straight up. Matchups should last 3 hours, period, This way we play we get rewards we log out. This way we can get matched to fight comparable sized teams everytime on any timezone, the server system is retarded, just make it so it is 3 factions with mutiple instances that open up and close dynamically according to playing population at the time, this way during NA prime when we have 15k players we will fight some other gamers without the need for queues, and during AUssie time when 150 players play they are also guaranteed to fight players every single night 24/7.

Just do all this things WvW is saved, congratulations YOU GUYS ARE FUCKING HEROES

P.S Every single stupid shit u think its cool and u wanna add to the game, please consult with the players please make a test server like any normal game all this nonsense secrecy u handle you game is what is killing it, you need to speak to the players u need to comunicate, and with comunicate i dont mean make a fucking post here every 2 years, actually talk to the players talk to your guild leaders talk to your streamers TALK PLEASE, COMUUUUUNICATE, even fucking animals comunicate, it is a basic thing animals do in order to understand each other needs.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:...we want the power level to come down.

This was really all that had to be said to get me interested in WvW again.

Since I don't usually partake in large-scale fights, I can't really comment on those. Also, I'm way out of date since I've been sporadic since before PoF dropped...so I'll leave small scale to others as well.

But I will say that WvW-specific, objective related issues must also be on the table. Things like how easily can a class disengage and how often? How difficult is it to bring them down in order to secure an area? How much projectile reflect uptime is healthy to have on a single character (thus, preventing disables)?

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@Sylosi.6503 said:

@"bluberblasen.9684" said:

Iteratively adjust the power levels of known builds. Example:
  • Restore revenant hammer #2 Coalescence of Ruin
  • Increase reaper's boon removal
  • Help revenants remove more boons.

please not :(

Also give players a change to spawn new builds by making large changes to skills/traits that have potential, but are not quite there. Dont be afraid to take risks. Examples:
  • Make engineer rifle stronger. Faster "cast times" to all skills and add evasion for the leap skill.
  • Allow engineer to remove more boons.and core engi is not bad - only holo is way too strong. nerf holo and core engi is great again.

Core engi is one of, if not the weakest core spec in the game, so is basically terrible. Go see thief, warrior, etc for really strong core specs and even most other core specs like necro, ele, ranger, etc are stronger than core engy. Core engy is the poster boy for being left behind by powercreep that has obsoleted most of its design (kits, projectiles, combo fields, etc), it is so pitiful it basically needs a rework.

Problem is holo and scrapper can be built to carry, if u buff core engie, it’s elites will be far more broken than they can reach already.

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@"adventure.9032" said:My suggestions:

  1. Remove https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant
  2. Change https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Devouring_Darkness to affect only 3 targets and on smaller radius.
  3. Tune down firebrand support
  4. Remove evasion from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smoke_Assault_(soulbeast)

This.

Trying to engage a big group on melee is basically impossible, because all the scourges destroy so many boons so easily. Scourge's ability to hit 10 targets is just too strong. Also the devouring darkness is really strong and should be nerfed a bit.

As for the support builds its true that firebrands are really powerful. I was thinking that F2 and F3 skills cooldowns should be made longer, but this idea:

@"Coinhead.7591" said:

  • Reduce target limit of all tome skills to 3 targets. This will reduce the amount of boons and healing that firebrands are dishing out in large scale battles, but in small scale firebrand support remains strong.
  • Tome_of_Resolve All skills only affect 3 allies
  • Tome_of_Courage All skills only affect 3 allies
  • Tome_of_Justice All skills only affect 3 enemies
  • Valiant Bulwark Replace reflecting with destroying. Projectiles are already weak enough.

Seems quite interesting too.

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@tappajabob.5983 said:

@"adventure.9032" said:My suggestions:
  1. Remove
  2. Change
    to affect only 3 targets and on smaller radius.
  3. Tune down firebrand support
  4. Remove evasion from
    )

This.

Trying to engage a big group on melee is basically impossible, because all the scourges destroy so many boons so easily. Scourge's ability to hit 10 targets is just too strong. Also the devouring darkness is really strong and should be nerfed a bit.

As for the support builds its true that firebrands are really powerful. I was thinking that F2 and F3 skills cooldowns should be made longer, but this idea:

@"Coinhead.7591" said:
  • Reduce target limit of all tome skills to 3 targets. This will reduce the amount of boons and healing that firebrands are dishing out in large scale battles, but in small scale firebrand support remains strong.
  • All skills only affect 3 allies
  • All skills only affect 3 allies
  • All skills only affect 3 enemies
  • Replace reflecting with destroying. Projectiles are already weak enough.

Seems quite interesting too.

Ive always been in favor of giving the Times an x amount of points (20 normal and 30 traited) and every skill you use Cost An x amount of points (skill 1 1 point 2 2 pnts etc)Maybe even bring IT down to 10-20, since IT can spam so easilyORLock the utility bar while in tome to be An actual trade off...instead of 3 extra skillbars

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@L A T I O N.8923 said:Ive always been in favor of giving the Times an x amount of points (20 normal and 30 traited) and every skill you use Cost An x amount of points (skill 1 1 point 2 2 pnts etc)Maybe even bring IT down to 10-20, since IT can spam so easilyORLock the utility bar while in tome to be An actual trade off...instead of 3 extra skillbars

Both of your ideas are good, but are they implementable as a skill split? Usually skill splits just change damage/range/duration/cooldown/targets of the skills.

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@tappajabob.5983 said:

@L A T I O N.8923 said:Ive always been in favor of giving the Times an x amount of points (20 normal and 30 traited) and every skill you use Cost An x amount of points (skill 1 1 point 2 2 pnts etc)Maybe even bring IT down to 10-20, since IT can spam so easilyORLock the utility bar while in tome to be An actual trade off...instead of 3 extra skillbars

Both of your ideas are good, but are they implementable as a skill split? Usually skill splits just change damage/range/duration/cooldown/targets of the skills.

I mean a Reaper is a transformation but works on same principes

Secondly guards had a tome skill elite as basic they might be able to use in programming?

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